Show Notes
On today’s episode, Tom Campbell (CEG’s Community Manager) is joined by Carolyn Starks, a former Pomona and Bates admissions officer and Associate Director of College Counseling at Oakwood School (North Hollywood, CA) at the time of recording, to talk about extracurricular activities and the activities list on college applications.
They get into, among other things:
What are some of the benefits of getting involved in your school community?
How can students explore activities outside of their high schools?
How do admission officers evaluate a student’s activities list?
Frequently asked questions about activities and summer programs
And more!
But first, let’s meet Carolyn:
Carolyn Starks followed her father’s footsteps and attended Rhodes College in Memphis, TN where she studied English and Africana Studies. After graduation, she moved to Portland, ME to work at Bates College where she focused on supporting first-generation-to-college, BIPOC, and/or low-income students through the admissions process. After two years, she landed a job at Pomona College’s Office of Admissions where she joined the Access Team, ran the College’s diversity fly-in programs, and learned to be justice oriented in her approach to educational equity. Though at the time of recording Carolyn was Oakwood School in North Hollywood’s Associate Director of College Counseling, she will soon be moving to serve as Co-Director of College Counseling at Santa Fe Prep in Santa Fe, NM. In her free time, Carolyn enjoys indulging in local cuisine and watching Bravo with her husband and her dog, Ms. Pecan Pie.
We hope you enjoy the episode.
Play-by-Play
4:48 – What is Carolyn’s background?
6:20 – What activities was Carolyn involved in during high school?
8:36 – What activities did Tom participate in during high school?
10:45 – How can students learn about the opportunities at their school?
16:50 – Why should students get involved within their school community?
23:09 – How can students be involved in extracurriculars outside their school?
29:57 – What should students keep in mind when applying to highly selective schools?
36:13 – Do colleges have preferred activities or summer experiences?
36:41 – Does placement on an activities list matter?
37:37 – How many years should students participate in an activity?
39:05 – How important is having formal leadership roles?
42:18 – What might not be worth putting on your activities list?
46:25 – How many activities is enough?
51:22 – How can students maintain a balance between their home life, academic, and extracurricular activities?
55:47 – Closing thoughts
Resources
Extracurricular Activities: A comprehensive guide with 400+ examples and ideas
A List of Activities You May Not Have Considered Including—But That Count!
80+ Real Examples for Writing Your Extracurricular Activity List
Show transcript
Tom Campbell 0:00
Tom Tom Campbell here, former admissions officer from Holy Cross and Pomona College and current co host of the college sai podcast, I had so much fun sitting down for this episode with my former colleague and forever friend ms Carolyn Starks, who worked with me at Pomona College for several years. Hey, we always recommend avoiding extreme language at College Essay Guy, so terms like forever friend never always sounds like a Taylor Swift song. But some people like Carolyn just have that special Je ne sais quoi. Speaking of Je ne sais quoi, I just found out that that term actually means I don't know what in French, and from my experience working in college counseling and college admissions, I'd say there's very few areas of the college admission process that elicit that same reaction, as frequently as extracurricular activities. I don't know what types of activities impress colleges. I don't know how many to take. I don't know how I should be spending my summer. I don't know how to balance my academics, which, as we know from this, what colleges want series is still the most important aspect of the process with extracurriculars. Well, if these Genese clauses have been keeping you up at night, this episode our extracurricular activities deep dive is for you, Carolyn and I will get into what are some of the benefits of getting involved in your school community. How can students explore activities outside of their high schools? How do admission officers evaluate a student's Activities List? Frequently Asked Questions about activities, summer programs and lots more. But first, let's meet Carolyn. Carolyn Starks followed her father's footsteps and attended Rhodes College in Memphis, Tennessee, where she studied English and Africana Studies. After graduation, she moved to Portland, Maine to work at Bates College, where she focused on supporting first generation to college bipoc andor low income students through the admissions process. After two years, she landed a job at Pomona college's Office of Admissions Whitney, where she joined our access team, ran the college's diversity fly in programs, and learned to be just as oriented in her approach to educational equity. Though, at the time of recording, Carolyn was an Associate Director of College Counseling at Oakwood school in North Hollywood. She will soon be moving to serve as CO Director of College Counseling at Santa Fe prep in Santa Fe, New Mexico. In her free time, Carolyn enjoys indulging in local cuisine and watching Bravo with her husband and her dog. MS, pecan pie. We hope you enjoyed this episode.
Well, hello, college. Jessica. Audience, I am here today with the lovely and illustrative and Shining bright like a diamond. Carolyn Starks, my wonderful former colleague and current friend, forever friend who is currently working as an Associate Director of College Counseling at Oakwood School in Los Angeles. Lovely school, Carolyn and I got to work together for almost four years, three and a half ish years, yeah, at lovely Pomona College, where I had the bulk of my admissions experience, and I believe Carolyn did as well. But Carolyn, how are you doing this? Beautiful Wednesday,
Carolyn Starks 3:02
I'm doing really well. I am feeling really excited that it's summer, so I'm getting some time to rest and rejuvenate before I dive right into the college process of supporting my seniors as they apply, write their essays and kind of create applications to college. So good. Well, lovely.
Tom Campbell 3:25
And we know one of the biggest parts of an application beyond, of course, a student's academic record, which is first and foremost in applying to schools, is what they do outside of all those classes. So your extracurriculars, your activities, whatever that may be, the whole point of this podcast today is to be able to outline and cover and illustrate lots of different possibilities when it comes to how you can spend your time outside of class, because it is not one size fits all, and every student has different opportunities that are close in proximity within their school. Maybe you're a homeschool student, so your activities are basically whatever is outside of your own house or in your own house. So kind of whatever that spectrum is, we definitely want anyone who's tuning in, whether it's parents, counselors students, to lead with a better understanding of how to make the most of your time outside of class as a high school student, both kind of starting out with high school and then kind of as you start to move through the grade levels through ninth and 10th, as you start to get your feet wet and explore whatever your school environment has to offer, or out of school environment, to if you're going to dabble into community work, to that 11th and 12th grade phase where you're kind of defining a little more of like your place at your school, able to kind of dig more deep into areas of impact. And one of the biggest pieces of what we're, you know, very well versed in, is how to communicate that to colleges that you're applying to, right? Yeah, so. But so before we dive into that, Carolyn, tell us a little bit about how you started to work with young people in this capacity,
Carolyn Starks 4:54
absolutely. So I started off in college giving tour. Members to prospective families at my alma mater, and it was really fun to see these young people's eyes light up when I talked about my my institution, Rhodes College, Memphis, Tennessee. Giving it a shout out
Tom Campbell 5:14
to Nashville is what I've been told board on the street.
Carolyn Starks 5:18
Well, I'm totally biased, and I just really loved talking about the power of a liberal arts college education, and when it was time to apply to jobs in my senior year, I sat down with my tour guide boss, who was an admissions officer at Rhodes, and she said, you know, you can do this. And so I started looking at jobs and admissions. Was lucky enough to be able to accept a job at Bates College in Lewiston Maine, and then the snow broke my heart, so I was looking for warmer weather, and then moved to Pomona, where we both got to work together. And after seeing so many applications and so many really incredible students. I knew that my skill set of knowing what it takes to get into college could be better suited on the high school side, so I pivoted, and it's been a lot of fun, and I think that there's so much knowledge that we can share, which is why I was so honored when you asked me to sit down with you here today. It
Tom Campbell 6:21
is the privilege is the pleasure is all mine, pleasure and privilege. So Carolyn, in the spirit of just icebreakers, getting to know each other again. Audience, know a little bit about us beyond just our professional background. Would love to hear a little bit about how you spent your high school activities and moving from you know, ninth through 12th grade, what you got involved in, and how that ebbed and flowed, and oftentimes that, you know, learning from experience is a great way to present to people on the other end, you know, what to lean into and maybe what not to lean into as much? Yeah,
Carolyn Starks 6:55
absolutely. So I will say that the activities that I was involved in in high school, changed a lot. I was very into marching band in ninth, 10th and 11th grade, and loved it, and it was so wonderful. But in my senior year, I wanted to start, you know, focusing on more things that I was really, really interested in and invested in. So I had to stop marching band and became, like a lieutenant governor of Key Club, which was like in charge of my county, and like the four adjacent counties, kind of like leading community service, Key Club, community service. So I had to, like, pick and choose. I was also involved in various language clubs, and those were all ones that I ended up putting on my common application. And then there were some that I didn't put on my common application. Like at my school, we had a baseball team that, like always went to state, and we didn't really have cheerleaders for the baseball team, but we had this group of young women called the diamond dolls, where we would just bake cookies and kind of like, you know, go to the games and cheer them on, and that, luckily enough, had a college counselor who was like, Hey, we should probably not put that one on there. Like, let's use other areas and be judicious with the spaces that you have. So seeing how I was able to pick and choose and show what I was really invested in and potentially what I would want to continue on in college was something that I got to have and something that I definitely I had those kinds of conversations with my young people as well. I
Tom Campbell 8:36
started out in high school kind of really not knowing what to spend my time doing. I wasn't really involved in a ton of clubs and activities in middle school. It just wasn't that kind of school. So I started out playing. I like, did tennis camp when I was a kid? So I did. I remember joining, like, the ninth grade the freshman tennis team, and was so unathletic. Was not good at that at all. I was in CYO football as well when I was in middle school. No way. My dad, yes, well, Carol, it's funny. Carol annoyed me. Was like, really, oh news to me, because I'm very unathletic in terms of, especially like coordination and organized sports. But my dad was, like, a football coach, a football athlete in college. So, like, there was, you know, that kind of pressure to, like, try to be good at that. So that was kind of like a moment of, like self advocacy, to kind of maybe, like, sit down and be like, Hey, I'm not interested in sports. I've tried it out. I've it's wasn't my thing. I wasn't able to find really a lot of community there, or feel really empowered by my skills or what I was contributing, but something that in middle school we had, like these school shows and plays that I dabbled with a little bit. So that's something that I wanted to explore a little more. So I started to get more involved in drama. And I kind of said, like, hey, like, my interests are elsewhere, so majority of my time in high school was spent this is not very surprising, I'm sure, something very theatrical. I was in several different plays in high school, from being the Mad Hatter and Alice in Wonderland to Uncle Max and the sound of music, lots of the wackier zany characters, yeah. And I also did some service group work as well, which, you know, of course, now that I work in, you know, college and mission space and like, yeah, a lot of students do that too. So how would I distinguish my experiences now versus then? Is something I think a lot about. But yeah, I think kind of like moving through high school and initially like trying out athletics, and for you, it was trying out marching band and realizing that, like, your skills and interests were better suited for other areas of impact and leadership. It's super normal to dabble and stumble and try new things. And so that's definitely something that hopefully our our two experiences are, it's
Carolyn Starks 10:45
all about growth. In the college experience, the high school experience is all about growth and growing towards you know who you will be and the person and adult you will be. So I just want to, like highlight that as well. Like, you do not have to be involved in something all four years if you are that's amazing. It's really cool to see how you can grow inside of an organization, and how you can have different facets and identify different silos of yourself in one activity, but giving yourself a lot of grace because you enter high school, what at like, 14 years old, like you can't drive, you can't do all of these things about the time you graduate, like you can vote for the president. You can vote for the president of the United States, right? So like recognizing that there's a lot of developmental growth that happens, I think, is just giving everybody an opportunity to offer grace to the young people who are going through this process. So
Tom Campbell 11:37
Carolyn, any advice for you know, students who are kind of just starting out high school, trying to figure out kind of how to spend their time outside of class, what they may want to dive into absolutely
Carolyn Starks 11:48
so I know in my high school experience, there were some opportunities where I was in class with some juniors and seniors that was typically like my elective classes, and I just if I was friends with them, or if they were someone that I really admired, I kind of asked them, like, Hey, what did you get involved in? Like, what are you involved in outside of the classroom? And so I got to kind of hear their experiences and kind of find what they were interested in. But now that I'm a high school college counselor, I typically ask my students, what would get you out of bed at eight o'clock on a Saturday morning? Because that is what is going to bring you the most joy? Like, if you are excited to wake up early on a Saturday to go and do a thing that's typically where you're gonna find joy. And this may sound like kind of a Marie Kondo, but like, whatever will spark joy won't feel like a chore, or won't feel like going to work. It'll feel like, you know, something that brings you a lot of excitement. So that's typically like what I start when I start having conversations with my with my ninth grade students, I bring that up. And then I also just will share the different activities that Oakwood offers, and recognizing that there are some activities that a lot of colleges, or because me a lot of high schools, will have, but then also, you know, recognizing that some of the things that Oakwood has other schools don't have. So whatever your school has, if it does have activities or doesn't have activities, knowing that you can find ways to get involved outside of the classroom is kind of where I kind of start those basis of conversations. What about you? How do you start when you start talking to young people and what they're interested in.
Tom Campbell 13:42
I think about the scene of Mean Girls. For anyone who is tuning in and remembers this, you know, early 2000s gem of like the cafeteria and kind of where everyone sits, many schools will have an opportunity to have some kind of, like buddy system with someone who is older and more experienced. Has kind of been through the ropes, because every high school has its own unique culture. And as Carolyn mentioned, right, every high school kind of has their own unique offerings. So I'd say leaning on mentors and support when it comes to Hey, gee, these are some of the things that I'm into. Like, do you know from your friends, from your network, from your knowledge of the school, like, where I maybe want to spend my time outside of my classes? That's, I think, a great first step to think about when it comes to figuring out, kind of, like, where to spend your time and where to dabble in. But of course, not everyone's like super especially when you're kind of, you know that new ninth grader to the scene, like some people are going to be naturally more extroverted and willing to do that than others. So I'd say, if you know, if an older peer feels like really scary and intimidating, which is, like, really common for a lot of high school students, asking teachers, right, who are, are there to you know, many schools are going to have something akin to a homeroom or an advisory right, where you kind of like, have a little bit of time before your. Actual academic classes to know the ropes, to learn about, you know, oh, on Fridays, we have spirit day in the month of, you know, September and things like that. So I'd say leaning on your homeroom teacher advisory. If you're able to meet with the school counselor to I can say early on in high school. That's something that, you know, depending on the school and availability, some students might not be able to do that because a lot of times, especially with schools that have, like, a college counseling oriented department related to that, but most schools are going to have a school counselor to be able to help provide that sense of guidance. And it doesn't just have to be for, you know, social, emotional counseling. School counselors are there for, kind of, all aspects of the process. So that's something else I think about identifying early on in high school is like, who to go to help get that lay of the land, because it can be definitely very overwhelming.
Carolyn Starks 15:49
Yeah. And it also doesn't have to be super strategic either. I know when we were working at Pomona, we saw a lot of the same quote, unquote, competitive ish activities of like mock trial or Model UN or, you know, trying to be the captain of your sport that you were involved in, or the leader of your environmental justice organization. It doesn't have to be like that, thought out or meticulous, because I think I don't know if you correct me if I'm wrong, but I could always tell when it felt forced, rather than just kind of like natural, like letting your intellectual curiosity drive what you're interested in, but then also, like, again, what you what students had the most joy in doing. I was always able to pick up on hints and notes of that. So was that? Did you feel that way as well? Yes. Okay,
Tom Campbell 16:50
so of course, one of the most natural ways to get involved outside of classes is to take advantage of what is in your own high school. And you know, a lot of the things that Carolyn and I were involved in in high school, you know, we did things that were available, you know, kind of on a list, right, that can be produced by our school, or you can hear from from upperclassmen, or from your, you know, senior buddy, or whatever it may be. And there's a lot of merits to getting involved in things within your own school. I'd say the majority of applicants that we've read in admissions are, most of the time, the bulk of kind of kind of their extracurricular profile happens to be things that were offered by their school environment. So Carolyn, why even get involved in clubs and organizations to begin with? Other than, of course, like getting into college, which is sometimes like we try to step back from that mentality, there should be a goal and a purpose of this beyond an end goal, yeah, what are some of the biggest benefits of just like getting involved in your school community?
Carolyn Starks 17:45
Absolutely. Well, first of all, I think that there is incredible opportunities to learn from different people who have different perspectives. And yes, you may all go to the to the same high school, but we all know that collaboration is where, like the greatest ideas can come together and be thought of through different lenses. So being able to collaborate and learn from one another. Because in college, I think, other than your senior thesis, which is purely if you do do a senior thesis, not everybody does that, all of your classes will be with other students. You'll be asked to engage and think thoughtfully. So seeing how that can be translated to your college experience is definitely ways that college admissions officers are kind of like looking through how you collaborate in high school. There's also opportunities to be a team player. I think teamwork and ways of being able to work together towards a common goal is something that college admissions officers are thinking about as well. The fact that they're right there, you know, at your school does offer a level of ease, and the barrier for entry is, like, very low, so it doesn't necessarily feel like it's overwhelming, which is why we do see a lot of students getting involved at their at their high school. And then also, you know, another thing that people don't even think about is time management. You know, thinking about how you continue to excel inside of your academics, but then also being able to give a lot of your time and attention to your various outside and class activities. So all of these skills that you don't know that you're doing by being involved in these extracurriculars are things that college admissions officers can tell based off of knowing what it takes to be a successful athlete or a successful club leader or a successful community service person,
Tom Campbell 19:55
a servicer, the service the servicing Yeah,
Carolyn Starks 19:58
yeah. So Right? Recognizing that there are lots of different skills that come from being involved in these different organizations that we know are at high schools.
Tom Campbell 20:11
I think for students you know, if you're at a school, say, for example, where your identity or background or the things that you're interested in aren't as seen on that high school campus, identifying a group or a part a slice of your high school where you do feel like you can be your full self. You do feel like there are people that you have that kind of sense of solidarity with. That's also something that's incredibly important just as a high school student, in terms of navigating the experience and having ways to fill your cup beyond solely grinding with your academic work, because that's something that's obviously very important. But yeah, having that kind of in school support, if you can find that it can sometimes be difficult, just depending on if you're a student, say, for example, who has a really niche interest that no one else in the school is into, it can feel a little isolating at times. And I think back to like there was a student I brought I brought him up a couple of times on different College Essay, Guy related podcast, webinars and things like that, but he was a student from an alliance High School in Los Angeles. It's a network of charter schools for students who are very college motivated. And he, one of his main extracurriculars was all about ants and ant research. And he had his own aunt podcast, and it's something that the counselor even talked about how, like in our school, like no one else is, like with him when it comes to this, like no one else is really into it, but he does it unabashedly himself anyway, because it's something that he's curious about and he enjoys, and he makes the time for it. So those opportunities and things that sometimes when you're trying to find your people, it can sometimes be best to, like, look outside of your school environment, but ideally, finding something that is within your school can help you just feel more at home there, and be able to kind of go through that four year experience feeling as best as you possibly can. I also think about like one of my former student from Pomona, who went to Hollywood High School in LA and she talked about being on the prom committee and how her school didn't have a lot of funding for things like prom, school dances and whatnot. So she was like, she kind of painted this picture in one of her supplemental essays about, like, streaming things together with tape and, like, you know, artfully cobbling together the scraps of paper from recycling bins to make some mosaic collage theme moment or prom, right? And the way she kind of painted it was like, hey, a lot of us kind of come from a similar walk of life. You know, we don't all have a lot of money in our own homes, and our school is a reflection of that, but it's taught me a lot about resourcefulness, being entrepreneurial, kind of making lemons out of lemonade, or whatever that expression is. So I also think you know, even if sometimes your high school doesn't have exactly the resources that you know would allow you to put on the best problem you could ever put on, or the people around you that are as like minded or as nerdy about ants as you are, too, there are, I think, ways to talk about the values that those experiences have helped you define that may or may not be actually directly tied to the extracurricular itself.
Carolyn Starks 23:09
For sure, you just brought up really, really wonderful points, and one that I want to build off of is going back to your student who was interested in ants and ant farming and created a whole ant podcast. And that's the idea of being involved in extracurricular activities outside of your school community. I think now, I think I know not every high school in America is the same and will have the same extracurriculars, and then also recognizing that going back to your student who was talking about the funding of the prom committee, not all these high schools, not every high school, has robust offerings for extracurriculars. So one thing that we always talked about at Pomona, that I mean at Bates as well, was, how is this student spending their time outside of the classroom? So recognizing, if you're we're having to work 40 hours a week, and that's your extracurricular. That at least at Pomona, when it came to bringing that student to committee and having them be a competitive applicant was right on par with being the captain of a sport or the student body president, we always put on the lens of, like, I'm putting on my context goggles. Well, you guys can't see me because I'm doing that. It's a podcast, but I would always put on my context goggles of reading what was available to that student and what their lived experience allowed them to do, and then also going back to your young person who was involved in the ant podcast, he had this insatiable curiosity that he just kind of went out and did, and so forging your own path and following that curiosity, it may seem like scary or not what everybody's doing, but that to college admissions officers. Is super exciting, because it's going to be like, what kind of intellectual risks are you going to take on our campus? Or how are you for those who are having to take care of their younger siblings or working like we can only imagine what you're going to do on our campus when you finally have the time to engage with a school that has resources or a school that has different opportunities. So being involved outside of the classroom can show up in a lot of different ways, and it doesn't necessarily have to be something that's right there in your school, but you know, finding different ways to engage outside of your school also shows so much to college admissions officers and I always found those activities outside of the school to be not way more interesting, but just told me so much more about the student, and it gave me different things to like, latch on to and kind of fight for in the committee room,
Tom Campbell 25:54
yeah. And I think the context goggles piece is like such a piece of this puzzle, especially for those who are thinking about how activities come up in conversation in a college admission setting that is so so crucial. And I think about like, I remember there was a kid who applied from a high school in Bandon, Oregon, which I actually ended up like driving through when I drove from LA to Seattle on a road trip few years back, and it's like, population a few 100, and the majority of how he spent his time was helping with his family's restaurant. They owned a Japanese restaurant in town. Was like one of like five different places to eat beyond the supermarket. And I remember looking at his school profile and being like, Yeah, this is a place where a he was taking a lot of classes, kind of outside of what his high school offered, because he didn't max out a lot of things there, so taking advantage of online classes, things like that. But from an extracurricular standpoint, you know, beyond the 4h club and a few other classic athletic teams that I think they had to abandon, abandon organ together with other neighborhood or another. You know, surrounding towns teams are things that are reality for many students who are applying to us, colleges and international students as well. There's such a different approach and such a different culture. Yeah? Cultural reality,
Carolyn Starks 27:16
film podcast, yes,
Tom Campbell 27:18
100% because it's so, so different, but, but even within the US, right, there's such a range of schools and opportunities. And I, you know, I love the point that you brought up about, about what could a student potentially be able to accomplish when they're at a place that has resources? Because that's a big thing that selective schools talk about. You know, we, we talked a lot about the term and the value of ecology exceptional promise at Pomona. And thinking about, yeah, thinking about kids who, you know, I remember another student, for example, who like a big way that she spent her time outside of class was in researching indigenous South and Central American languages. She was like, that's something that's a part of my cultural heritage. And I kind of just like, I find a lot of beauty in it. And it's something that, you know, figuring out how certain words, for example, like, have a completely unique meeting that isn't directly translatable to English, is just something I'm really fascinated by. So I remember her kind of talking about, and, you know, she kind of came from an LA public school with, you know, not a lot of resources on indigenous languages in house, understandably, right? But reaching out to local colleges people who are kind of doing it in surrounding areas, and that could be difficult to do if you don't really know where to start or who to reach out to. But I think if you're curious about something, voicing it to an adult around you, especially one who is familiar with the college going landscape and basically being like, how do I lean into this more? That can be a difficult first step to take, of beyond, kind of just like having this interest during your head, but definitely kind of that asking, of like, how to get it to a materialized thing. Of course, the internet is great and it's out there, but sometimes it takes, kind of like identifying opportunities outside of what's you know, in your home backyard. Yeah, really make the most of that. And if
Carolyn Starks 29:07
you don't have adults in your life that you feel like you can ask if you're listening to this podcast, you must be thinking of college and have a few colleges in mind already. Maybe the colleges that you're thinking about, have a page of tour guides who are college students and like, reach out to one of those. Like, if they're on the website, they definitely want to engage with prospective students. So recognizing that there are different ways that you can go about this and do the go, the Go, go the route that feels most comfortable to you, because at the end of the day, if you're listening to this podcast and you want to go to college, like there are ways to find your path to the college that you end up at. So definitely, so, so the
Tom Campbell 29:58
beginning of high school is definitely. That time to explore, right and to take advantage of what's in your own backyard. And if that's more limited, maybe thinking about becoming more comfortable with exploring things outside of that, such as Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts. A lot of schools or a lot of communities will have like teen programs for like the local newspaper, where I'll be high school students from lots of different schools who are collaborating on a newspaper together, or museums or libraries, oftentimes have other forms of community outside, yeah, community gardens, yes, so many ways outside, in or outside of your school. But one thing that definitely, I think, for especially for our audience at college, Jessica, as students, kind of move through ninth and 10th grade, and they maybe, you know, find the things that they are interested in continuing on with and potentially becoming leaders in having more impact in and maybe kind of like leaving some of those earlier activities. They're the equivalent of my ninth grade tennis fiasco, leaving that to kind of just the elephant graveyard and just bait by girl, yeah, as the as they approach 11th and 12th grade, the years kind of starts to shift a little. Shift a little bit more to finding your place in high school, to identifying what you want your place to be in a college experience, if that's the path you choose. And at CEG, obviously it's college. Jessica, so college is on the minds of you know, people that we work with when it comes to that. I think you know both of us have the unique benefit of having read for two different schools when it comes to two different colleges, when it comes to selectivity, I think something that we both kind of bonded over when we both started working at Pomona was in transitioning from that school that is selective, but not not so highly, highly rejective, to transition to that school where many of the students who are Applying were seen as kind of the top achievers in their local environment. What are some advice that you have to students around kind of just being aware of that landscape and how extracurriculars and activities in particular are communicated with, if that's a path you want to go down,
Carolyn Starks 31:57
for sure. So yeah, I think the schools that are admitting less than 10% of their applicants, it is so, so so important for young people who are entering those applicant pools to just recognize that you are going to be a big fish and a big pond, like there will always be students who are doing, quote, unquote, more impressive things than you, and there will be, always be students who are doing less impressive things than you. And again, I mentioned this earlier, to just offer yourself a ton of grace as you enter those applicant pools, as like my number one piece of advice, but then to just recognize that you are a unique individual for a reason. There will never, ever be another Tom Campbell, there will never, ever be another Carolyn Starks, and to recognize what we bring to the table through the activities that we were involved with in college, excuse me, in high school, and then what we got involved with in college is kind of recognizing the unique, Insta, unique perspective that you're bringing. And then also what we were talking about with earlier, about how colleges can see are you're going to engage with that, that campus community once you end up enrolling at that college or university, is always something that college admissions officers are are thinking about. And there are different qualities that really drive a college admissions officers decision. But the number one that I always heard when we were talking about both at Bates and Pomona and now, even when I'm on the college or the high school side and I'm talking to different college admissions officers, is this idea of intellectual curiosity. So how can your curiosity drive the different extracurriculars that you're involved with? That is always going to be the thing that I kind of like would hang my hat on when encouraging young people to get involved in different activities. And knowing, you know, National Honor Society, Model UN mock trial, academic decathlon like those are a dime a dozen at these highly selective institutions. And not only are they a dime a dozen, but people are president or captain or, you know, ultimate leader
Speaker 1 34:22
in the star whatever it is
Carolyn Starks 34:27
in these different organizations is just something to just be aware of and thinking about how you're leading these different organizations and what you're trying to elevate them if you are or think about them through a different lens, is what you're going to bring to that, that application, yeah,
Tom Campbell 34:47
that awareness of kind of not, not doing those things. But I think it's a really good lesson and a way to underscore one of our big, you know, mantras, that College Essay Guy, which is about being. Involved in school and leaning into your curiosities will help you in the long term. And sometimes there may be goals that you think that you have, or places where you see yourself, certain colleges or certain universities that it doesn't work out to completely pivot your high school experience, to try and put together a version of yourself that you think some of the schools you're interested in will want to hear most about a you can't really plan for that because, you know, cultural dynamics shift in the United States. There are periods of our history where there were more kids interested in certain areas and involved in certain areas and others. But doesn't mean, doesn't mean that you shouldn't do that, because these are the things that you're the most engaged with the things that you want to lean into more so and the earlier you identify that, and I think, become more comfortable with leaning in so deeply into something, the better off you'll be in the long term.
Carolyn Starks 35:54
Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely. All
Tom Campbell 35:57
right, so the two of us spent some time before we came together for this podcast to kind of put together some of the most commonly asked questions that we get from students and families, both when we worked in admissions and now. So we're going to do a little rapid fire section of the podcast and just bang out a lot of these frequently asked questions, starting with, do colleges have preferred activities or summer experiences?
Carolyn Starks 36:18
No, they do not. Again, recognizing where a student comes from and the context in which their lived experience is there aren't any real preferences. Again, just going back to like, what's the intellectual curiosity potentially driving some of these activities? That's really the only thing that I could think of when asking that question,
Tom Campbell 36:41
agreed. All right. Number two, does their placement on an activities list matter? So when you're writing your activities to colleges, does it matter how up on the list or low on the list an activity really is,
Carolyn Starks 36:53
for the highly selective colleges out there, it does not, but it might for some schools like, let's say you're applying for a leadership scholarship and you're want to be read in that capacity. It might so again, it depends on the schools you're applying to, but typically, for the highly rejective colleges, it does not. Yeah,
Tom Campbell 37:13
and I'd say, you know, the general rule of thumb that you know many counselors would communicate with students is just putting activities in order of importance to you, or, you know, how much of your time is dedicated to those areas? That's, I'd say, generally, a really solid approach when it comes to, you know, thinking about what order to put your activities in. But in general, it's something that isn't really highly scrutinized or evaluated on the admission side of things, for sure, all right. Number three, longitivity. So how many years do you have to be in the same activity for it to quote, unquote, count to colleges
Carolyn Starks 37:45
again. I think we talked about at the beginning of this podcast how we both were interested and involved in things in ninth grade that became obsolete by the time we were in 11th and 12th grade. So longevity, it's nice to have, but it's not necessary, because, again, you're evolving and growing through your high school experience, and we wouldn't never want you to continue to be involved in something just because you had started it in ninth grade, if you weren't necessarily enjoying yourself
Tom Campbell 38:11
absolutely. Yeah, and I would say in general, students who are going to be competitive at some of these more selective colleges, there probably are a few activities or things that they've been involved in outside of school for two or more years, because those are usually that's usually the time frame when a student's able to get exposed to a club or organization and then potentially pivot into being a member of a club or organization or a team, to taking on a little bit more of a leadership role and having a little more impact, some more initiative in terms of the direction that that activity is going, or how they want to be spending their time or resources. So generally, I'd say a two year stint with something is going to allow you the most capacity for that type of growth within an activity, but definitely normalizing the one and done. Try it for a season. This was not my gig. There's a lot of people throughout history who that's been their lifestyle. So totally, totally fine. All right. Number four, so on the theme of what we just talked about, when it comes to leadership, that's something that we got a lot of questions about. So number four, how important is having formal leadership roles in the college admission process with your activities? Yeah,
Carolyn Starks 39:21
I think I mean, again, at these highly rejective schools, leadership is a dime a dozen. But there's also different ways that you can get involved and be a leader without actually being like the president or the captain. One thing, I had a total bias towards stage managers in the theater production. And normally people are like, Oh, we want the lead actor, actress, or we want the director. But the stage manager, in my opinion, was like this quiet leader that if they did not do their job, the show could not run. So recognizing that leaning into whatever your strengths may be and you. End up getting a leadership role with those strengths is something that college admissions officers could tell as well. So there are different various levels of leadership. Clubs at my school now have onboarding people, so they'll have students, you know, that ran for a leadership position, but didn't necessarily get it, but now they're in charge of mentoring the younger students to kind of get more involved, and you can kind of create your own leadership in the different clubs and organizations. If you feel passionate or strongly about something and you see that there's a gap or a hole missing in the club that you're a part of, yeah,
Tom Campbell 40:35
and I think one of the things that I really underscore when it comes to like leadership is that for admissions officers, sometimes, of course, seeing a position listed to an activity will communicate a certain message about the level of investment and time and energy and impact that you're attaching to a club. But there, I've worked with enough students to realize that there are sometimes students who don't necessarily have that title, who are still really being leaders in the space that they're a part of. So, you know, this past year, our College Essay Guy, I remember reading this one a student's application, who she on her soccer team, brought up a point to the team leadership around gender inclusive. There were certain traditions on the team that involved the players wearing all, you know, dresses and formal wear, and one of her peers identified as non binary, so she really wanted to advocate to the team's leadership on changing the dress policy for these formal days that are part of the team. And that's an example of someone being on a team, but not necessarily being part of the leadership, but bringing forward things that show their values, show their ability to be a leader for other people and their peers. So I'd say, oftentimes, outside of a formal role that you may have latched onto, which, of course, can be great, there are oftentimes places in an application where you can communicate leadership as a quality and leadership as a value, and how you've demonstrated that. So I'd say that's actually something that I think is more impactful, and actually tips the needle more for a student in an application process beyond solely, how many titles Did you rack up? Because that can only, again, communicate so so much.
Speaker 1 42:15
Oh yes, all of that. Astrid, all right.
Tom Campbell 42:20
Well, thank you. So number five, you know, basically, things that you spend your time doing outside of school can count as an activity, formal or informal, but are there things that you should not put on your activities list, or things that don't actually count as an activity, even if it is how you spend a decent amount of your time outside of classes?
Carolyn Starks 42:40
Yes. So going back to my own experience, I did not put diamond dolls on my extracurricular list because I didn't feel like it properly communicated what I valued and what I do value, both then and now, and if it's considered like what you would do on an everyday basis, like chores, of like feeding your dog, or like washing the dishes, or, you know, these things that Tom and I like to call lifeing, probably not a good idea to put on your common app. I remember there was one application that I read and it said significant other, and they talked about all the hours that they took being a significant other. And I that wasn't something that I could like latch on to in the in the committee process. And I do want to make a differentiation here between familial responsibilities and lifeing the familial responsibilities of having to take care of your younger siblings or a sick parent or a grandparent or just anyone in your life, and also including, like, having to, like, cook dinner and, you know, run the household. There's a difference between like, chores and running a household, and so I really want to articulate that nuance here. Because if you're running a household versus, like feeding your dog, there's a level of responsibility that is huge in we can kind of tell the difference there. So I guess, like, Be judicious, and if you're doing this process on your own and you don't have someone that you can kind of noodle through these, these different responsibilities. Again, if you're listening to this podcast, you're thinking about highly selective colleges. Reach out to an admissions officer or reach out to a tour guide to see if they can help you work through that. And I know that might be scary, but we want you to go to college, and we want you to find ways to highlight what you're doing in your home as well.
Tom Campbell 44:42
Yeah, and I think in terms of kind of like some like guiding questions to ask yourself, of like, is this, you know, non traditional activity of mine, this non formal way that I spend my time? Is it really an activity? I think just thinking about the number of hours is a good way as well to kind of like, help make that distinction between. Like lifeing and activity being, because, right, you know, sleeping, of course, we do that many hours of a day, but like that is something that is a part of, like being a functioning human. So like things like sleeping, eating, walking, you know, those are kind of just generally like things you do, you know, regardless of if you attend college or not, or are a high school student or not, that's just a part of the human life cycle, basic chores, you know, things that you do maybe you know, just to keep the household running as part of a family that don't involve multiple hours of your time or are taking away from for example, you know, if you have those substantial family responsibilities and you're driving siblings to practices, or you are kind of basically the math and the week, a decent amount of that pie is being spent with responsibilities beyond things that you could be doing for yourself, communicating that as as activities in some way, shape or form, is going to Help someone on the other end fill in the pieces of basically, like, what they want to know is, like, beyond lifeing, right? Like, what's a week in the life of Tom or Carolyn? Like, what are the different pies being spent doing? And that's, I'd say, just a really good way to kind of think about what people on the other end are hoping to hear about, regardless of how formal or informal, the activity is right?
Speaker 1 46:21
I think that concludes our rapid fire. It was rapid fire. But probably the biggest
Tom Campbell 46:28
question that we get is, How many activities is enough, right? And it can be a really confusing reality for students and families, because the Common Application currently offers 10 spaces for students to indicate what they spent their time outside the classroom, doing their activities. Yeah, but Carolyn, we talked about kind of our experience, you know, reading applications and recognizing that very few students, I would say very, very few, had deeply engaged commitments that would fit all 10 of those different slots. So any advice around how many activities feels like? It's meaty enough, or, I guess, for the vegans in the room and it's substantive enough, organic enough to count? Yeah,
Carolyn Starks 47:15
I think for me, and my experience both at Bates and Pomona, it was. And honestly, now that I'm working with high school students as well, there aren't enough hours in the week to be involved in more than, like three to four substantive activities through your high school experience and and that's where, again, we don't want students to just like check boxes, to check boxes like we want students to engage thoughtfully and thoroughly with something, because college admissions officers are going to see again, how is that shoe student showing up in their life pre college, and what are they going to look like once they're on our campus? So being deeply invested and not really just doing something just flippantly, I really saw like three to four and and I also want to highlight that these three to four activities don't have to align perfectly with your academic interest. I think another myth that I've heard a lot is, what's the story that's being told through my application? What's the common thread and the common theme? And sometimes that happens for students just because, again, they followed their heart and their intellectual curiosities, that we can very easily see what that thread is, but when it felt forced, which we could always tell, it was never like as genuine or as prominent in the application. So that's the thing of you don't have to have a common thread, and you don't have to tell a story, and it doesn't have to align with your academic interests. If it does amazing. And again, most of the time, the students that I was that were most compelling in the committee room, that was the case. But that doesn't have to be the case. And I think giving yourself again the grace to explore different areas of things that you're most excited about, like you can be so, so, so stoked to be involved in the community garden and teaching young people how to grow food, or going into food deserts and how to grow their own food. But you know that you want to major in, like, Renaissance studies in antiquity, right? Like, it doesn't necessarily have to be the things that you're spending your time with, how you're going to you're going to be major in in college. So just doing the things again, like Saturday morning, what's going to get you up? What's going to get you excited? And knowing that it's typically physically impossible to be involved in 10 substantive things. And also, like MIT, they only allow. Four slots. So these highly selective colleges are also recognizing, like, you can't do all the things and still be a straight A student or like, you know, academically competitive with your transcript, and taking all of these rigorous courses offered as well. So just knowing that colleges recognize that will give you again, the freedom to dive into what you're most excited about as well.
Speaker 1 50:27
Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, beyond
Tom Campbell 50:32
formal Activities and Leadership and National Honor Society and all these things, right, something that you know we're really present to as well in not just we are not just advisors to students, we're counselors. And it's, I think, something that's really present when it comes to that part of our jobs is just what it's like to be a human right now, you know, kind of navigating lots of political instability challenges across our world, a shifting landscape when it comes to technology. You know, still navigating through global pandemics and health challenges and people's own lives. You know, something that we're both very present to are the increasing rates of anxiety, depression challenges when it comes to mental health with today's young people. So sometimes activities can be in direct contrast and kind of tension with taking care of yourself. So Carolyn, what advice do you want to give to students and families around that particular part of being not just a student and an applicant but a human Absolutely,
Carolyn Starks 51:31
and I think I've mentioned this several times throughout the podcast, but just offering immense grace to yourself, to your student, to your peers. I know at Pomona, when I was running the diversity fly in program, we would have someone talk come in, who's actually the Dean of Students? He rocks, talk about, it's cool to be busy. It's cool to be stressed. Like, who can be more stressed? And that just means, like, you're, you're, you're doing so many things, and like you're so important, or, quote, unquote important. And it's like, he would see these students who would do all these things in high school, and they would get to Pomona, and then they would be burnt out, like they couldn't take advantage of what Pomona had to offer. And I just want to put it out there that, like, it is really cool to, like, take some time and just sit in the sun. Or, if you don't have sun, to like, sit in the snow. You know, like, give your self some grace. Colleges want students who can hit the ground running when they get there. So if you're so burnt out from trying to do all of these things and be excellent in all of these different ways, and then you're burnt out when you get there, like not only are you doing yourself a disservice, but you're doing a disservice to the community that you're joining because they admitted you hoping that you could take advantage of and engage. So just being kind to yourself and parents and guardians being kind to your young person. I think, you know, Tom talked about self advocacy at the very beginning of this podcast where he said to his dad, you know, like, I really want to make you proud. But like, these are the things that I'm interested in, parents and guardians and counselors. Listen to your young people. Like, please, please, please listen to your young people, because, yes, like, we want the best for our students, but if we push them to the brink of breaking their breaking point, then we're doing more harm than good. So centering and that also goes with like picking out your academic course load as well. So, you know, we want them to thrive, but they can't do that if, if they're if they're struggling mentally. So giving them some grace and giving them just loving them really is the piece that I want to offer.
Tom Campbell 53:55
Yeah, there's a quote that I stumbled upon recently, and yes, of course, I just Googled this to remind myself of but they come up somewhere, and I'm forgetting where it was, but by Teddy Roosevelt, and its Comparison is the thief of joy. And I feel like, especially when it comes to, you know, speaking to any students who are listening, that is a message that I continue to struggle with to this day. And I know many, many people, especially in the US, just culturally, it can be really easy to, especially with a college admission process, lean into comparison as the way that you're literally navigating your entire life. And I think that's the big source now for students to feel inadequate and inferior or like they can't do it, and everyone else around them is and just know that growing up in today's day and age, you have access to many different ways to do life more than any other generation prior to you, and because of your developmental reality and the time at which you're stepping into that it can feel. Like, when there's so many options of how to spend my time on this earth, that level of overwhelm is something that is completely normal, and it's very difficult, and no one has done it before you right? So for you students listening, just know that doing it all seems like something that there are people around you doing, but there are far more people that are even if they're in that position, wondering how much more they can fit and squeeze into their plate as well. And there's always, there's always going to be a step above and above. So that's kind of my my advice. I think when it comes to helping to approach this process with ease, purpose and joy, which is what we're all about a college as a guy, I feel like we should add grace as a four, as a fourth turn just after the podcast. So Carolyn, make sure to trademark that now before we end up snatching that. So you know, I was working on that a bit well. Thank you so much for tuning in and for sharing you know your perspective on this process and on how to spend your time outside classes. And it's always great to reconnect with an old colleague and a current and future forever friend.
Carolyn Starks 56:00
Yes, absolutely, I always enjoy our time together. Tom, so thank you so much for asking me and whoever's listening, best of luck as you support young people through this process. Young people as you enter this process, and know, no matter what the decision the college decisions that you get are are not a reflection of who you are by any means. So be kind to yourself, be kind to others and and Go
Unknown Speaker 56:24
in grace. And Go in grace.
Tom Campbell 56:31
Thanks, as always, for tuning into the college si guy podcast, and we hope this extracurricular activities deep dive was helpful to you as you embark on your application process. As always, any of the resources we mention in the episode will be included in the show notes, including college essay guy's own Ultimate Guide to extracurricular activities. Have a great rest of your evening, morning, day, afternoon, and as Carolyn loves to say, orvon will share you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show transcript
Tom Campbell 0:00 Tom Tom Campbell here, former admissions officer from Holy Cross and Pomona College and current co host of the college sai podcast, I had so much fun sitting down for this episode with my former colleague and forever friend ms Carolyn Starks, who worked with me at Pomona College for several years. Hey, we always recommend avoiding extreme language at College Essay Guy, so terms like forever friend never always sounds like a Taylor Swift song. But some people like Carolyn just have that special Je ne sais quoi. Speaking of Je ne sais quoi, I just found out that that term actually means I don't know what in French, and from my experience working in college counseling and college admissions, I'd say there's very few areas of the college admission process that elicit that same reaction, as frequently as extracurricular activities. I don't know what types of activities impress colleges. I don't know how many to take. I don't know how I should be spending my summer. I don't know how to balance my academics, which, as we know from this, what colleges want series is still the most important aspect of the process with extracurriculars. Well, if these Genese clauses have been keeping you up at night, this episode our extracurricular activities deep dive is for you, Carolyn and I will get into what are some of the benefits of getting involved in your school community. How can students explore activities outside of their high schools? How do admission officers evaluate a student's Activities List? Frequently Asked Questions about activities, summer programs and lots more. But first, let's meet Carolyn. Carolyn Starks followed her father's footsteps and attended Rhodes College in Memphis, Tennessee, where she studied English and Africana Studies. After graduation, she moved to Portland, Maine to work at Bates College, where she focused on supporting first generation to college bipoc andor low income students through the admissions process. After two years, she landed a job at Pomona college's Office of Admissions Whitney, where she joined our access team, ran the college's diversity fly in programs, and learned to be just as oriented in her approach to educational equity. Though, at the time of recording, Carolyn was an Associate Director of College Counseling at Oakwood school in North Hollywood. She will soon be moving to serve as CO Director of College Counseling at Santa Fe prep in Santa Fe, New Mexico. In her free time, Carolyn enjoys indulging in local cuisine and watching Bravo with her husband and her dog. MS, pecan pie. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Well, hello, college. Jessica. Audience, I am here today with the lovely and illustrative and Shining bright like a diamond. Carolyn Starks, my wonderful former colleague and current friend, forever friend who is currently working as an Associate Director of College Counseling at Oakwood School in Los Angeles. Lovely school, Carolyn and I got to work together for almost four years, three and a half ish years, yeah, at lovely Pomona College, where I had the bulk of my admissions experience, and I believe Carolyn did as well. But Carolyn, how are you doing this? Beautiful Wednesday, Carolyn Starks 3:02 I'm doing really well. I am feeling really excited that it's summer, so I'm getting some time to rest and rejuvenate before I dive right into the college process of supporting my seniors as they apply, write their essays and kind of create applications to college. So good. Well, lovely. Tom Campbell 3:25 And we know one of the biggest parts of an application beyond, of course, a student's academic record, which is first and foremost in applying to schools, is what they do outside of all those classes. So your extracurriculars, your activities, whatever that may be, the whole point of this podcast today is to be able to outline and cover and illustrate lots of different possibilities when it comes to how you can spend your time outside of class, because it is not one size fits all, and every student has different opportunities that are close in proximity within their school. Maybe you're a homeschool student, so your activities are basically whatever is outside of your own house or in your own house. So kind of whatever that spectrum is, we definitely want anyone who's tuning in, whether it's parents, counselors students, to lead with a better understanding of how to make the most of your time outside of class as a high school student, both kind of starting out with high school and then kind of as you start to move through the grade levels through ninth and 10th, as you start to get your feet wet and explore whatever your school environment has to offer, or out of school environment, to if you're going to dabble into community work, to that 11th and 12th grade phase where you're kind of defining a little more of like your place at your school, able to kind of dig more deep into areas of impact. And one of the biggest pieces of what we're, you know, very well versed in, is how to communicate that to colleges that you're applying to, right? Yeah, so. But so before we dive into that, Carolyn, tell us a little bit about how you started to work with young people in this capacity, Carolyn Starks 4:54 absolutely. So I started off in college giving tour. Members to prospective families at my alma mater, and it was really fun to see these young people's eyes light up when I talked about my my institution, Rhodes College, Memphis, Tennessee. Giving it a shout out Tom Campbell 5:14 to Nashville is what I've been told board on the street. Carolyn Starks 5:18 Well, I'm totally biased, and I just really loved talking about the power of a liberal arts college education, and when it was time to apply to jobs in my senior year, I sat down with my tour guide boss, who was an admissions officer at Rhodes, and she said, you know, you can do this. And so I started looking at jobs and admissions. Was lucky enough to be able to accept a job at Bates College in Lewiston Maine, and then the snow broke my heart, so I was looking for warmer weather, and then moved to Pomona, where we both got to work together. And after seeing so many applications and so many really incredible students. I knew that my skill set of knowing what it takes to get into college could be better suited on the high school side, so I pivoted, and it's been a lot of fun, and I think that there's so much knowledge that we can share, which is why I was so honored when you asked me to sit down with you here today. It Tom Campbell 6:21 is the privilege is the pleasure is all mine, pleasure and privilege. So Carolyn, in the spirit of just icebreakers, getting to know each other again. Audience, know a little bit about us beyond just our professional background. Would love to hear a little bit about how you spent your high school activities and moving from you know, ninth through 12th grade, what you got involved in, and how that ebbed and flowed, and oftentimes that, you know, learning from experience is a great way to present to people on the other end, you know, what to lean into and maybe what not to lean into as much? Yeah, Carolyn Starks 6:55 absolutely. So I will say that the activities that I was involved in in high school, changed a lot. I was very into marching band in ninth, 10th and 11th grade, and loved it, and it was so wonderful. But in my senior year, I wanted to start, you know, focusing on more things that I was really, really interested in and invested in. So I had to stop marching band and became, like a lieutenant governor of Key Club, which was like in charge of my county, and like the four adjacent counties, kind of like leading community service, Key Club, community service. So I had to, like, pick and choose. I was also involved in various language clubs, and those were all ones that I ended up putting on my common application. And then there were some that I didn't put on my common application. Like at my school, we had a baseball team that, like always went to state, and we didn't really have cheerleaders for the baseball team, but we had this group of young women called the diamond dolls, where we would just bake cookies and kind of like, you know, go to the games and cheer them on, and that, luckily enough, had a college counselor who was like, Hey, we should probably not put that one on there. Like, let's use other areas and be judicious with the spaces that you have. So seeing how I was able to pick and choose and show what I was really invested in and potentially what I would want to continue on in college was something that I got to have and something that I definitely I had those kinds of conversations with my young people as well. I Tom Campbell 8:36 started out in high school kind of really not knowing what to spend my time doing. I wasn't really involved in a ton of clubs and activities in middle school. It just wasn't that kind of school. So I started out playing. I like, did tennis camp when I was a kid? So I did. I remember joining, like, the ninth grade the freshman tennis team, and was so unathletic. Was not good at that at all. I was in CYO football as well when I was in middle school. No way. My dad, yes, well, Carol, it's funny. Carol annoyed me. Was like, really, oh news to me, because I'm very unathletic in terms of, especially like coordination and organized sports. But my dad was, like, a football coach, a football athlete in college. So, like, there was, you know, that kind of pressure to, like, try to be good at that. So that was kind of like a moment of, like self advocacy, to kind of maybe, like, sit down and be like, Hey, I'm not interested in sports. I've tried it out. I've it's wasn't my thing. I wasn't able to find really a lot of community there, or feel really empowered by my skills or what I was contributing, but something that in middle school we had, like these school shows and plays that I dabbled with a little bit. So that's something that I wanted to explore a little more. So I started to get more involved in drama. And I kind of said, like, hey, like, my interests are elsewhere, so majority of my time in high school was spent this is not very surprising, I'm sure, something very theatrical. I was in several different plays in high school, from being the Mad Hatter and Alice in Wonderland to Uncle Max and the sound of music, lots of the wackier zany characters, yeah. And I also did some service group work as well, which, you know, of course, now that I work in, you know, college and mission space and like, yeah, a lot of students do that too. So how would I distinguish my experiences now versus then? Is something I think a lot about. But yeah, I think kind of like moving through high school and initially like trying out athletics, and for you, it was trying out marching band and realizing that, like, your skills and interests were better suited for other areas of impact and leadership. It's super normal to dabble and stumble and try new things. And so that's definitely something that hopefully our our two experiences are, it's Carolyn Starks 10:45 all about growth. In the college experience, the high school experience is all about growth and growing towards you know who you will be and the person and adult you will be. So I just want to, like highlight that as well. Like, you do not have to be involved in something all four years if you are that's amazing. It's really cool to see how you can grow inside of an organization, and how you can have different facets and identify different silos of yourself in one activity, but giving yourself a lot of grace because you enter high school, what at like, 14 years old, like you can't drive, you can't do all of these things about the time you graduate, like you can vote for the president. You can vote for the president of the United States, right? So like recognizing that there's a lot of developmental growth that happens, I think, is just giving everybody an opportunity to offer grace to the young people who are going through this process. So Tom Campbell 11:37 Carolyn, any advice for you know, students who are kind of just starting out high school, trying to figure out kind of how to spend their time outside of class, what they may want to dive into absolutely Carolyn Starks 11:48 so I know in my high school experience, there were some opportunities where I was in class with some juniors and seniors that was typically like my elective classes, and I just if I was friends with them, or if they were someone that I really admired, I kind of asked them, like, Hey, what did you get involved in? Like, what are you involved in outside of the classroom? And so I got to kind of hear their experiences and kind of find what they were interested in. But now that I'm a high school college counselor, I typically ask my students, what would get you out of bed at eight o'clock on a Saturday morning? Because that is what is going to bring you the most joy? Like, if you are excited to wake up early on a Saturday to go and do a thing that's typically where you're gonna find joy. And this may sound like kind of a Marie Kondo, but like, whatever will spark joy won't feel like a chore, or won't feel like going to work. It'll feel like, you know, something that brings you a lot of excitement. So that's typically like what I start when I start having conversations with my with my ninth grade students, I bring that up. And then I also just will share the different activities that Oakwood offers, and recognizing that there are some activities that a lot of colleges, or because me a lot of high schools, will have, but then also, you know, recognizing that some of the things that Oakwood has other schools don't have. So whatever your school has, if it does have activities or doesn't have activities, knowing that you can find ways to get involved outside of the classroom is kind of where I kind of start those basis of conversations. What about you? How do you start when you start talking to young people and what they're interested in. Tom Campbell 13:42 I think about the scene of Mean Girls. For anyone who is tuning in and remembers this, you know, early 2000s gem of like the cafeteria and kind of where everyone sits, many schools will have an opportunity to have some kind of, like buddy system with someone who is older and more experienced. Has kind of been through the ropes, because every high school has its own unique culture. And as Carolyn mentioned, right, every high school kind of has their own unique offerings. So I'd say leaning on mentors and support when it comes to Hey, gee, these are some of the things that I'm into. Like, do you know from your friends, from your network, from your knowledge of the school, like, where I maybe want to spend my time outside of my classes? That's, I think, a great first step to think about when it comes to figuring out, kind of, like, where to spend your time and where to dabble in. But of course, not everyone's like super especially when you're kind of, you know that new ninth grader to the scene, like some people are going to be naturally more extroverted and willing to do that than others. So I'd say, if you know, if an older peer feels like really scary and intimidating, which is, like, really common for a lot of high school students, asking teachers, right, who are, are there to you know, many schools are going to have something akin to a homeroom or an advisory right, where you kind of like, have a little bit of time before your. Actual academic classes to know the ropes, to learn about, you know, oh, on Fridays, we have spirit day in the month of, you know, September and things like that. So I'd say leaning on your homeroom teacher advisory. If you're able to meet with the school counselor to I can say early on in high school. That's something that, you know, depending on the school and availability, some students might not be able to do that because a lot of times, especially with schools that have, like, a college counseling oriented department related to that, but most schools are going to have a school counselor to be able to help provide that sense of guidance. And it doesn't just have to be for, you know, social, emotional counseling. School counselors are there for, kind of, all aspects of the process. So that's something else I think about identifying early on in high school is like, who to go to help get that lay of the land, because it can be definitely very overwhelming. Carolyn Starks 15:49 Yeah. And it also doesn't have to be super strategic either. I know when we were working at Pomona, we saw a lot of the same quote, unquote, competitive ish activities of like mock trial or Model UN or, you know, trying to be the captain of your sport that you were involved in, or the leader of your environmental justice organization. It doesn't have to be like that, thought out or meticulous, because I think I don't know if you correct me if I'm wrong, but I could always tell when it felt forced, rather than just kind of like natural, like letting your intellectual curiosity drive what you're interested in, but then also, like, again, what you what students had the most joy in doing. I was always able to pick up on hints and notes of that. So was that? Did you feel that way as well? Yes. Okay, Tom Campbell 16:50 so of course, one of the most natural ways to get involved outside of classes is to take advantage of what is in your own high school. And you know, a lot of the things that Carolyn and I were involved in in high school, you know, we did things that were available, you know, kind of on a list, right, that can be produced by our school, or you can hear from from upperclassmen, or from your, you know, senior buddy, or whatever it may be. And there's a lot of merits to getting involved in things within your own school. I'd say the majority of applicants that we've read in admissions are, most of the time, the bulk of kind of kind of their extracurricular profile happens to be things that were offered by their school environment. So Carolyn, why even get involved in clubs and organizations to begin with? Other than, of course, like getting into college, which is sometimes like we try to step back from that mentality, there should be a goal and a purpose of this beyond an end goal, yeah, what are some of the biggest benefits of just like getting involved in your school community? Carolyn Starks 17:45 Absolutely. Well, first of all, I think that there is incredible opportunities to learn from different people who have different perspectives. And yes, you may all go to the to the same high school, but we all know that collaboration is where, like the greatest ideas can come together and be thought of through different lenses. So being able to collaborate and learn from one another. Because in college, I think, other than your senior thesis, which is purely if you do do a senior thesis, not everybody does that, all of your classes will be with other students. You'll be asked to engage and think thoughtfully. So seeing how that can be translated to your college experience is definitely ways that college admissions officers are kind of like looking through how you collaborate in high school. There's also opportunities to be a team player. I think teamwork and ways of being able to work together towards a common goal is something that college admissions officers are thinking about as well. The fact that they're right there, you know, at your school does offer a level of ease, and the barrier for entry is, like, very low, so it doesn't necessarily feel like it's overwhelming, which is why we do see a lot of students getting involved at their at their high school. And then also, you know, another thing that people don't even think about is time management. You know, thinking about how you continue to excel inside of your academics, but then also being able to give a lot of your time and attention to your various outside and class activities. So all of these skills that you don't know that you're doing by being involved in these extracurriculars are things that college admissions officers can tell based off of knowing what it takes to be a successful athlete or a successful club leader or a successful community service person, Tom Campbell 19:55 a servicer, the service the servicing Yeah, Carolyn Starks 19:58 yeah. So Right? Recognizing that there are lots of different skills that come from being involved in these different organizations that we know are at high schools. Tom Campbell 20:11 I think for students you know, if you're at a school, say, for example, where your identity or background or the things that you're interested in aren't as seen on that high school campus, identifying a group or a part a slice of your high school where you do feel like you can be your full self. You do feel like there are people that you have that kind of sense of solidarity with. That's also something that's incredibly important just as a high school student, in terms of navigating the experience and having ways to fill your cup beyond solely grinding with your academic work, because that's something that's obviously very important. But yeah, having that kind of in school support, if you can find that it can sometimes be difficult, just depending on if you're a student, say, for example, who has a really niche interest that no one else in the school is into, it can feel a little isolating at times. And I think back to like there was a student I brought I brought him up a couple of times on different College Essay, Guy related podcast, webinars and things like that, but he was a student from an alliance High School in Los Angeles. It's a network of charter schools for students who are very college motivated. And he, one of his main extracurriculars was all about ants and ant research. And he had his own aunt podcast, and it's something that the counselor even talked about how, like in our school, like no one else is, like with him when it comes to this, like no one else is really into it, but he does it unabashedly himself anyway, because it's something that he's curious about and he enjoys, and he makes the time for it. So those opportunities and things that sometimes when you're trying to find your people, it can sometimes be best to, like, look outside of your school environment, but ideally, finding something that is within your school can help you just feel more at home there, and be able to kind of go through that four year experience feeling as best as you possibly can. I also think about like one of my former student from Pomona, who went to Hollywood High School in LA and she talked about being on the prom committee and how her school didn't have a lot of funding for things like prom, school dances and whatnot. So she was like, she kind of painted this picture in one of her supplemental essays about, like, streaming things together with tape and, like, you know, artfully cobbling together the scraps of paper from recycling bins to make some mosaic collage theme moment or prom, right? And the way she kind of painted it was like, hey, a lot of us kind of come from a similar walk of life. You know, we don't all have a lot of money in our own homes, and our school is a reflection of that, but it's taught me a lot about resourcefulness, being entrepreneurial, kind of making lemons out of lemonade, or whatever that expression is. So I also think you know, even if sometimes your high school doesn't have exactly the resources that you know would allow you to put on the best problem you could ever put on, or the people around you that are as like minded or as nerdy about ants as you are, too, there are, I think, ways to talk about the values that those experiences have helped you define that may or may not be actually directly tied to the extracurricular itself. Carolyn Starks 23:09 For sure, you just brought up really, really wonderful points, and one that I want to build off of is going back to your student who was interested in ants and ant farming and created a whole ant podcast. And that's the idea of being involved in extracurricular activities outside of your school community. I think now, I think I know not every high school in America is the same and will have the same extracurriculars, and then also recognizing that going back to your student who was talking about the funding of the prom committee, not all these high schools, not every high school, has robust offerings for extracurriculars. So one thing that we always talked about at Pomona, that I mean at Bates as well, was, how is this student spending their time outside of the classroom? So recognizing, if you're we're having to work 40 hours a week, and that's your extracurricular. That at least at Pomona, when it came to bringing that student to committee and having them be a competitive applicant was right on par with being the captain of a sport or the student body president, we always put on the lens of, like, I'm putting on my context goggles. Well, you guys can't see me because I'm doing that. It's a podcast, but I would always put on my context goggles of reading what was available to that student and what their lived experience allowed them to do, and then also going back to your young person who was involved in the ant podcast, he had this insatiable curiosity that he just kind of went out and did, and so forging your own path and following that curiosity, it may seem like scary or not what everybody's doing, but that to college admissions officers. Is super exciting, because it's going to be like, what kind of intellectual risks are you going to take on our campus? Or how are you for those who are having to take care of their younger siblings or working like we can only imagine what you're going to do on our campus when you finally have the time to engage with a school that has resources or a school that has different opportunities. So being involved outside of the classroom can show up in a lot of different ways, and it doesn't necessarily have to be something that's right there in your school, but you know, finding different ways to engage outside of your school also shows so much to college admissions officers and I always found those activities outside of the school to be not way more interesting, but just told me so much more about the student, and it gave me different things to like, latch on to and kind of fight for in the committee room, Tom Campbell 25:54 yeah. And I think the context goggles piece is like such a piece of this puzzle, especially for those who are thinking about how activities come up in conversation in a college admission setting that is so so crucial. And I think about like, I remember there was a kid who applied from a high school in Bandon, Oregon, which I actually ended up like driving through when I drove from LA to Seattle on a road trip few years back, and it's like, population a few 100, and the majority of how he spent his time was helping with his family's restaurant. They owned a Japanese restaurant in town. Was like one of like five different places to eat beyond the supermarket. And I remember looking at his school profile and being like, Yeah, this is a place where a he was taking a lot of classes, kind of outside of what his high school offered, because he didn't max out a lot of things there, so taking advantage of online classes, things like that. But from an extracurricular standpoint, you know, beyond the 4h club and a few other classic athletic teams that I think they had to abandon, abandon organ together with other neighborhood or another. You know, surrounding towns teams are things that are reality for many students who are applying to us, colleges and international students as well. There's such a different approach and such a different culture. Yeah? Cultural reality, Carolyn Starks 27:16 film podcast, yes, Tom Campbell 27:18 100% because it's so, so different, but, but even within the US, right, there's such a range of schools and opportunities. And I, you know, I love the point that you brought up about, about what could a student potentially be able to accomplish when they're at a place that has resources? Because that's a big thing that selective schools talk about. You know, we, we talked a lot about the term and the value of ecology exceptional promise at Pomona. And thinking about, yeah, thinking about kids who, you know, I remember another student, for example, who like a big way that she spent her time outside of class was in researching indigenous South and Central American languages. She was like, that's something that's a part of my cultural heritage. And I kind of just like, I find a lot of beauty in it. And it's something that, you know, figuring out how certain words, for example, like, have a completely unique meeting that isn't directly translatable to English, is just something I'm really fascinated by. So I remember her kind of talking about, and, you know, she kind of came from an LA public school with, you know, not a lot of resources on indigenous languages in house, understandably, right? But reaching out to local colleges people who are kind of doing it in surrounding areas, and that could be difficult to do if you don't really know where to start or who to reach out to. But I think if you're curious about something, voicing it to an adult around you, especially one who is familiar with the college going landscape and basically being like, how do I lean into this more? That can be a difficult first step to take, of beyond, kind of just like having this interest during your head, but definitely kind of that asking, of like, how to get it to a materialized thing. Of course, the internet is great and it's out there, but sometimes it takes, kind of like identifying opportunities outside of what's you know, in your home backyard. Yeah, really make the most of that. And if Carolyn Starks 29:07 you don't have adults in your life that you feel like you can ask if you're listening to this podcast, you must be thinking of college and have a few colleges in mind already. Maybe the colleges that you're thinking about, have a page of tour guides who are college students and like, reach out to one of those. Like, if they're on the website, they definitely want to engage with prospective students. So recognizing that there are different ways that you can go about this and do the go, the Go, go the route that feels most comfortable to you, because at the end of the day, if you're listening to this podcast and you want to go to college, like there are ways to find your path to the college that you end up at. So definitely, so, so the Tom Campbell 29:58 beginning of high school is definitely. That time to explore, right and to take advantage of what's in your own backyard. And if that's more limited, maybe thinking about becoming more comfortable with exploring things outside of that, such as Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts. A lot of schools or a lot of communities will have like teen programs for like the local newspaper, where I'll be high school students from lots of different schools who are collaborating on a newspaper together, or museums or libraries, oftentimes have other forms of community outside, yeah, community gardens, yes, so many ways outside, in or outside of your school. But one thing that definitely, I think, for especially for our audience at college, Jessica, as students, kind of move through ninth and 10th grade, and they maybe, you know, find the things that they are interested in continuing on with and potentially becoming leaders in having more impact in and maybe kind of like leaving some of those earlier activities. They're the equivalent of my ninth grade tennis fiasco, leaving that to kind of just the elephant graveyard and just bait by girl, yeah, as the as they approach 11th and 12th grade, the years kind of starts to shift a little. Shift a little bit more to finding your place in high school, to identifying what you want your place to be in a college experience, if that's the path you choose. And at CEG, obviously it's college. Jessica, so college is on the minds of you know, people that we work with when it comes to that. I think you know both of us have the unique benefit of having read for two different schools when it comes to two different colleges, when it comes to selectivity, I think something that we both kind of bonded over when we both started working at Pomona was in transitioning from that school that is selective, but not not so highly, highly rejective, to transition to that school where many of the students who are Applying were seen as kind of the top achievers in their local environment. What are some advice that you have to students around kind of just being aware of that landscape and how extracurriculars and activities in particular are communicated with, if that's a path you want to go down, Carolyn Starks 31:57 for sure. So yeah, I think the schools that are admitting less than 10% of their applicants, it is so, so so important for young people who are entering those applicant pools to just recognize that you are going to be a big fish and a big pond, like there will always be students who are doing, quote, unquote, more impressive things than you, and there will be, always be students who are doing less impressive things than you. And again, I mentioned this earlier, to just offer yourself a ton of grace as you enter those applicant pools, as like my number one piece of advice, but then to just recognize that you are a unique individual for a reason. There will never, ever be another Tom Campbell, there will never, ever be another Carolyn Starks, and to recognize what we bring to the table through the activities that we were involved with in college, excuse me, in high school, and then what we got involved with in college is kind of recognizing the unique, Insta, unique perspective that you're bringing. And then also what we were talking about with earlier, about how colleges can see are you're going to engage with that, that campus community once you end up enrolling at that college or university, is always something that college admissions officers are are thinking about. And there are different qualities that really drive a college admissions officers decision. But the number one that I always heard when we were talking about both at Bates and Pomona and now, even when I'm on the college or the high school side and I'm talking to different college admissions officers, is this idea of intellectual curiosity. So how can your curiosity drive the different extracurriculars that you're involved with? That is always going to be the thing that I kind of like would hang my hat on when encouraging young people to get involved in different activities. And knowing, you know, National Honor Society, Model UN mock trial, academic decathlon like those are a dime a dozen at these highly selective institutions. And not only are they a dime a dozen, but people are president or captain or, you know, ultimate leader Speaker 1 34:22 in the star whatever it is Carolyn Starks 34:27 in these different organizations is just something to just be aware of and thinking about how you're leading these different organizations and what you're trying to elevate them if you are or think about them through a different lens, is what you're going to bring to that, that application, yeah, Tom Campbell 34:47 that awareness of kind of not, not doing those things. But I think it's a really good lesson and a way to underscore one of our big, you know, mantras, that College Essay Guy, which is about being. Involved in school and leaning into your curiosities will help you in the long term. And sometimes there may be goals that you think that you have, or places where you see yourself, certain colleges or certain universities that it doesn't work out to completely pivot your high school experience, to try and put together a version of yourself that you think some of the schools you're interested in will want to hear most about a you can't really plan for that because, you know, cultural dynamics shift in the United States. There are periods of our history where there were more kids interested in certain areas and involved in certain areas and others. But doesn't mean, doesn't mean that you shouldn't do that, because these are the things that you're the most engaged with the things that you want to lean into more so and the earlier you identify that, and I think, become more comfortable with leaning in so deeply into something, the better off you'll be in the long term. Carolyn Starks 35:54 Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely. All Tom Campbell 35:57 right, so the two of us spent some time before we came together for this podcast to kind of put together some of the most commonly asked questions that we get from students and families, both when we worked in admissions and now. So we're going to do a little rapid fire section of the podcast and just bang out a lot of these frequently asked questions, starting with, do colleges have preferred activities or summer experiences? Carolyn Starks 36:18 No, they do not. Again, recognizing where a student comes from and the context in which their lived experience is there aren't any real preferences. Again, just going back to like, what's the intellectual curiosity potentially driving some of these activities? That's really the only thing that I could think of when asking that question, Tom Campbell 36:41 agreed. All right. Number two, does their placement on an activities list matter? So when you're writing your activities to colleges, does it matter how up on the list or low on the list an activity really is, Carolyn Starks 36:53 for the highly selective colleges out there, it does not, but it might for some schools like, let's say you're applying for a leadership scholarship and you're want to be read in that capacity. It might so again, it depends on the schools you're applying to, but typically, for the highly rejective colleges, it does not. Yeah, Tom Campbell 37:13 and I'd say, you know, the general rule of thumb that you know many counselors would communicate with students is just putting activities in order of importance to you, or, you know, how much of your time is dedicated to those areas? That's, I'd say, generally, a really solid approach when it comes to, you know, thinking about what order to put your activities in. But in general, it's something that isn't really highly scrutinized or evaluated on the admission side of things, for sure, all right. Number three, longitivity. So how many years do you have to be in the same activity for it to quote, unquote, count to colleges Carolyn Starks 37:45 again. I think we talked about at the beginning of this podcast how we both were interested and involved in things in ninth grade that became obsolete by the time we were in 11th and 12th grade. So longevity, it's nice to have, but it's not necessary, because, again, you're evolving and growing through your high school experience, and we wouldn't never want you to continue to be involved in something just because you had started it in ninth grade, if you weren't necessarily enjoying yourself Tom Campbell 38:11 absolutely. Yeah, and I would say in general, students who are going to be competitive at some of these more selective colleges, there probably are a few activities or things that they've been involved in outside of school for two or more years, because those are usually that's usually the time frame when a student's able to get exposed to a club or organization and then potentially pivot into being a member of a club or organization or a team, to taking on a little bit more of a leadership role and having a little more impact, some more initiative in terms of the direction that that activity is going, or how they want to be spending their time or resources. So generally, I'd say a two year stint with something is going to allow you the most capacity for that type of growth within an activity, but definitely normalizing the one and done. Try it for a season. This was not my gig. There's a lot of people throughout history who that's been their lifestyle. So totally, totally fine. All right. Number four, so on the theme of what we just talked about, when it comes to leadership, that's something that we got a lot of questions about. So number four, how important is having formal leadership roles in the college admission process with your activities? Yeah, Carolyn Starks 39:21 I think I mean, again, at these highly rejective schools, leadership is a dime a dozen. But there's also different ways that you can get involved and be a leader without actually being like the president or the captain. One thing, I had a total bias towards stage managers in the theater production. And normally people are like, Oh, we want the lead actor, actress, or we want the director. But the stage manager, in my opinion, was like this quiet leader that if they did not do their job, the show could not run. So recognizing that leaning into whatever your strengths may be and you. End up getting a leadership role with those strengths is something that college admissions officers could tell as well. So there are different various levels of leadership. Clubs at my school now have onboarding people, so they'll have students, you know, that ran for a leadership position, but didn't necessarily get it, but now they're in charge of mentoring the younger students to kind of get more involved, and you can kind of create your own leadership in the different clubs and organizations. If you feel passionate or strongly about something and you see that there's a gap or a hole missing in the club that you're a part of, yeah, Tom Campbell 40:35 and I think one of the things that I really underscore when it comes to like leadership is that for admissions officers, sometimes, of course, seeing a position listed to an activity will communicate a certain message about the level of investment and time and energy and impact that you're attaching to a club. But there, I've worked with enough students to realize that there are sometimes students who don't necessarily have that title, who are still really being leaders in the space that they're a part of. So, you know, this past year, our College Essay Guy, I remember reading this one a student's application, who she on her soccer team, brought up a point to the team leadership around gender inclusive. There were certain traditions on the team that involved the players wearing all, you know, dresses and formal wear, and one of her peers identified as non binary, so she really wanted to advocate to the team's leadership on changing the dress policy for these formal days that are part of the team. And that's an example of someone being on a team, but not necessarily being part of the leadership, but bringing forward things that show their values, show their ability to be a leader for other people and their peers. So I'd say, oftentimes, outside of a formal role that you may have latched onto, which, of course, can be great, there are oftentimes places in an application where you can communicate leadership as a quality and leadership as a value, and how you've demonstrated that. So I'd say that's actually something that I think is more impactful, and actually tips the needle more for a student in an application process beyond solely, how many titles Did you rack up? Because that can only, again, communicate so so much. Speaker 1 42:15 Oh yes, all of that. Astrid, all right. Tom Campbell 42:20 Well, thank you. So number five, you know, basically, things that you spend your time doing outside of school can count as an activity, formal or informal, but are there things that you should not put on your activities list, or things that don't actually count as an activity, even if it is how you spend a decent amount of your time outside of classes? Carolyn Starks 42:40 Yes. So going back to my own experience, I did not put diamond dolls on my extracurricular list because I didn't feel like it properly communicated what I valued and what I do value, both then and now, and if it's considered like what you would do on an everyday basis, like chores, of like feeding your dog, or like washing the dishes, or, you know, these things that Tom and I like to call lifeing, probably not a good idea to put on your common app. I remember there was one application that I read and it said significant other, and they talked about all the hours that they took being a significant other. And I that wasn't something that I could like latch on to in the in the committee process. And I do want to make a differentiation here between familial responsibilities and lifeing the familial responsibilities of having to take care of your younger siblings or a sick parent or a grandparent or just anyone in your life, and also including, like, having to, like, cook dinner and, you know, run the household. There's a difference between like, chores and running a household, and so I really want to articulate that nuance here. Because if you're running a household versus, like feeding your dog, there's a level of responsibility that is huge in we can kind of tell the difference there. So I guess, like, Be judicious, and if you're doing this process on your own and you don't have someone that you can kind of noodle through these, these different responsibilities. Again, if you're listening to this podcast, you're thinking about highly selective colleges. Reach out to an admissions officer or reach out to a tour guide to see if they can help you work through that. And I know that might be scary, but we want you to go to college, and we want you to find ways to highlight what you're doing in your home as well. Tom Campbell 44:42 Yeah, and I think in terms of kind of like some like guiding questions to ask yourself, of like, is this, you know, non traditional activity of mine, this non formal way that I spend my time? Is it really an activity? I think just thinking about the number of hours is a good way as well to kind of like, help make that distinction between. Like lifeing and activity being, because, right, you know, sleeping, of course, we do that many hours of a day, but like that is something that is a part of, like being a functioning human. So like things like sleeping, eating, walking, you know, those are kind of just generally like things you do, you know, regardless of if you attend college or not, or are a high school student or not, that's just a part of the human life cycle, basic chores, you know, things that you do maybe you know, just to keep the household running as part of a family that don't involve multiple hours of your time or are taking away from for example, you know, if you have those substantial family responsibilities and you're driving siblings to practices, or you are kind of basically the math and the week, a decent amount of that pie is being spent with responsibilities beyond things that you could be doing for yourself, communicating that as as activities in some way, shape or form, is going to Help someone on the other end fill in the pieces of basically, like, what they want to know is, like, beyond lifeing, right? Like, what's a week in the life of Tom or Carolyn? Like, what are the different pies being spent doing? And that's, I'd say, just a really good way to kind of think about what people on the other end are hoping to hear about, regardless of how formal or informal, the activity is right? Speaker 1 46:21 I think that concludes our rapid fire. It was rapid fire. But probably the biggest Tom Campbell 46:28 question that we get is, How many activities is enough, right? And it can be a really confusing reality for students and families, because the Common Application currently offers 10 spaces for students to indicate what they spent their time outside the classroom, doing their activities. Yeah, but Carolyn, we talked about kind of our experience, you know, reading applications and recognizing that very few students, I would say very, very few, had deeply engaged commitments that would fit all 10 of those different slots. So any advice around how many activities feels like? It's meaty enough, or, I guess, for the vegans in the room and it's substantive enough, organic enough to count? Yeah, Carolyn Starks 47:15 I think for me, and my experience both at Bates and Pomona, it was. And honestly, now that I'm working with high school students as well, there aren't enough hours in the week to be involved in more than, like three to four substantive activities through your high school experience and and that's where, again, we don't want students to just like check boxes, to check boxes like we want students to engage thoughtfully and thoroughly with something, because college admissions officers are going to see again, how is that shoe student showing up in their life pre college, and what are they going to look like once they're on our campus? So being deeply invested and not really just doing something just flippantly, I really saw like three to four and and I also want to highlight that these three to four activities don't have to align perfectly with your academic interest. I think another myth that I've heard a lot is, what's the story that's being told through my application? What's the common thread and the common theme? And sometimes that happens for students just because, again, they followed their heart and their intellectual curiosities, that we can very easily see what that thread is, but when it felt forced, which we could always tell, it was never like as genuine or as prominent in the application. So that's the thing of you don't have to have a common thread, and you don't have to tell a story, and it doesn't have to align with your academic interests. If it does amazing. And again, most of the time, the students that I was that were most compelling in the committee room, that was the case. But that doesn't have to be the case. And I think giving yourself again the grace to explore different areas of things that you're most excited about, like you can be so, so, so stoked to be involved in the community garden and teaching young people how to grow food, or going into food deserts and how to grow their own food. But you know that you want to major in, like, Renaissance studies in antiquity, right? Like, it doesn't necessarily have to be the things that you're spending your time with, how you're going to you're going to be major in in college. So just doing the things again, like Saturday morning, what's going to get you up? What's going to get you excited? And knowing that it's typically physically impossible to be involved in 10 substantive things. And also, like MIT, they only allow. Four slots. So these highly selective colleges are also recognizing, like, you can't do all the things and still be a straight A student or like, you know, academically competitive with your transcript, and taking all of these rigorous courses offered as well. So just knowing that colleges recognize that will give you again, the freedom to dive into what you're most excited about as well. Speaker 1 50:27 Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, beyond Tom Campbell 50:32 formal Activities and Leadership and National Honor Society and all these things, right, something that you know we're really present to as well in not just we are not just advisors to students, we're counselors. And it's, I think, something that's really present when it comes to that part of our jobs is just what it's like to be a human right now, you know, kind of navigating lots of political instability challenges across our world, a shifting landscape when it comes to technology. You know, still navigating through global pandemics and health challenges and people's own lives. You know, something that we're both very present to are the increasing rates of anxiety, depression challenges when it comes to mental health with today's young people. So sometimes activities can be in direct contrast and kind of tension with taking care of yourself. So Carolyn, what advice do you want to give to students and families around that particular part of being not just a student and an applicant but a human Absolutely, Carolyn Starks 51:31 and I think I've mentioned this several times throughout the podcast, but just offering immense grace to yourself, to your student, to your peers. I know at Pomona, when I was running the diversity fly in program, we would have someone talk come in, who's actually the Dean of Students? He rocks, talk about, it's cool to be busy. It's cool to be stressed. Like, who can be more stressed? And that just means, like, you're, you're, you're doing so many things, and like you're so important, or, quote, unquote important. And it's like, he would see these students who would do all these things in high school, and they would get to Pomona, and then they would be burnt out, like they couldn't take advantage of what Pomona had to offer. And I just want to put it out there that, like, it is really cool to, like, take some time and just sit in the sun. Or, if you don't have sun, to like, sit in the snow. You know, like, give your self some grace. Colleges want students who can hit the ground running when they get there. So if you're so burnt out from trying to do all of these things and be excellent in all of these different ways, and then you're burnt out when you get there, like not only are you doing yourself a disservice, but you're doing a disservice to the community that you're joining because they admitted you hoping that you could take advantage of and engage. So just being kind to yourself and parents and guardians being kind to your young person. I think, you know, Tom talked about self advocacy at the very beginning of this podcast where he said to his dad, you know, like, I really want to make you proud. But like, these are the things that I'm interested in, parents and guardians and counselors. Listen to your young people. Like, please, please, please listen to your young people, because, yes, like, we want the best for our students, but if we push them to the brink of breaking their breaking point, then we're doing more harm than good. So centering and that also goes with like picking out your academic course load as well. So, you know, we want them to thrive, but they can't do that if, if they're if they're struggling mentally. So giving them some grace and giving them just loving them really is the piece that I want to offer. Tom Campbell 53:55 Yeah, there's a quote that I stumbled upon recently, and yes, of course, I just Googled this to remind myself of but they come up somewhere, and I'm forgetting where it was, but by Teddy Roosevelt, and its Comparison is the thief of joy. And I feel like, especially when it comes to, you know, speaking to any students who are listening, that is a message that I continue to struggle with to this day. And I know many, many people, especially in the US, just culturally, it can be really easy to, especially with a college admission process, lean into comparison as the way that you're literally navigating your entire life. And I think that's the big source now for students to feel inadequate and inferior or like they can't do it, and everyone else around them is and just know that growing up in today's day and age, you have access to many different ways to do life more than any other generation prior to you, and because of your developmental reality and the time at which you're stepping into that it can feel. Like, when there's so many options of how to spend my time on this earth, that level of overwhelm is something that is completely normal, and it's very difficult, and no one has done it before you right? So for you students listening, just know that doing it all seems like something that there are people around you doing, but there are far more people that are even if they're in that position, wondering how much more they can fit and squeeze into their plate as well. And there's always, there's always going to be a step above and above. So that's kind of my my advice. I think when it comes to helping to approach this process with ease, purpose and joy, which is what we're all about a college as a guy, I feel like we should add grace as a four, as a fourth turn just after the podcast. So Carolyn, make sure to trademark that now before we end up snatching that. So you know, I was working on that a bit well. Thank you so much for tuning in and for sharing you know your perspective on this process and on how to spend your time outside classes. And it's always great to reconnect with an old colleague and a current and future forever friend. Carolyn Starks 56:00 Yes, absolutely, I always enjoy our time together. Tom, so thank you so much for asking me and whoever's listening, best of luck as you support young people through this process. Young people as you enter this process, and know, no matter what the decision the college decisions that you get are are not a reflection of who you are by any means. So be kind to yourself, be kind to others and and Go Unknown Speaker 56:24 in grace. And Go in grace. Tom Campbell 56:31 Thanks, as always, for tuning into the college si guy podcast, and we hope this extracurricular activities deep dive was helpful to you as you embark on your application process. As always, any of the resources we mention in the episode will be included in the show notes, including college essay guy's own Ultimate Guide to extracurricular activities. Have a great rest of your evening, morning, day, afternoon, and as Carolyn loves to say, orvon will share you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
