Show Notes
Hi, friends, and welcome back to the College Essay Guy podcast. This episode is a fireside chat with Angel Pérez, the CEO of NACAC (the National Association for College Admission Counseling), someone who was named by Forbes as the most influential voice in college admissions.
Not long ago, Angel was discussing in an interview his book The Hottest Seat on Campus: A Roadmap for Mastering Leadership in College Admission, and he mentioned that if he could add one more chapter to his book, he’d write it on navigating ambiguity. This is a topic that has interested me for the last couple years as well, so asked Angel if we could just write that chapter aloud, together, on the podcast. And he agreed.
In part one we start in a more personal place, starting from how navigating ambiguity is something we’ve each been doing since we were very young. Then we chat about what it’s been like for Angel leading a non-profit during times of great uncertainty, how crucial it is to make the decision that allows you to sleep at night, and the importance of developing the capacity to sit with discomfort.
Then in part two we get into practical tips and resources — from slowing down when things speed up — to conducting “pre-mortems” when planning. We hope these are tools you can make use of, whether that’s in your office, at home, or wherever you are being called to lead.
If you haven’t met Angel Pérez, he is CEO of the National Association for College Admission Counseling (NACAC). In this role, he represents more than 25,000 admission and counseling professionals worldwide committed to postsecondary access and success. Angel strives to build an educational ecosystem that better represents today’s society. Prior to joining NACAC in July of 2020, Dr. Pérez served in secondary and higher education leadership positions across America, most recently, as Vice President for Enrollment and Student Success at Trinity College in Connecticut. Angel is a self-described recovered over-achiever, an advocate for counselors everywhere, and a dear friend.
We hope you enjoy the episode.
Play-by-Play
- 02:27 – What memories does Angel have around uncertainty and navigating ambiguity?
- 04:52 – What were some of Angel’s anchors growing up, and what did Angel orient around when there was so much uncertainty?
- 07:41 – How did caretaking show up in Angel’s world growing up?
- 11:07 – How does Angel’s childhood caretaker role show up in his work today?
- 13:44 – What have been the gifts of Angel’s ability to read a room?
- 17:33 – Who were the early influences that put Angel on the path to becoming CEO of NACAC?
- 21:30 – What was going on behind the scenes for Angel during a moment of great uncertainty in the profession, and what did that experience teach?
- 26:26 – What helped Angel get through that time of uncertainty?
- 28:41 – What would Angel have done differently during the first year as CEO of NACAC?
- 33:56 – How does Angel decide how much to share with a team, and how transparent should a leader be?
- 36:40 – How does Angel relate to being liked when making big decisions as a leader?
- 42:06 – How does a leader’s identity change as organizations and circumstances evolve?
- 44:40 – How has Ethan’s role evolved as College Essay Guy grew from a team of one to a team of twenty?
- 50:10 – How does knowing an institution will outlast its leader change what it means to lead?
- 52:50 – What does Angel hope persists in the organization and the profession long after his tenure?
- 54:39 – What message does Angel want to leave for leaders?
Resources
- The Hottest Seat on Campus: A Roadmap for Mastering Leadership in College Admission by Angel B. Pérez
- College Essay Guy’s Personal Statement Resources
- College Essay Guy’s College Application Hub
Ethan Sawyer (00:08) Hi, friends, and welcome back to the podcast. So, this is a conversation with Angel Perez, who is the CEO of NACAC, which is the National Association for College Admission Counseling. And he was named by Forbes the most influential voice on college admission. And not long ago, Angel was talking in an interview about his book, which is called The Hottest Seat on Campus: A Roadmap for Mastering Leadership in College Admission. And one of the things he said was that if he could write one more chapter in his book, Ethan Sawyer (00:38) He'd want to write about navigating ambiguity. Now, this is a topic that's something I've been thinking about and writing about a little bit over the last couple of years. And so I asked Angel, hey, what if we just recorded that live, like that chapter together on a podcast? And he said yes. So in part one of this conversation, we start from a personal place. And Angel and I both share how navigating ambiguity has been something that we've both been navigating for years. Ethan Sawyer (01:07) back to childhood. Then we talked about what it's been like for him leading a nonprofit during times of great uncertainty. He gets into how crucial it is to make the decision that allows you to sleep well at night and the importance of developing the capacity to sit with discomfort. And then in part two, we get into some practical tips and resources from slowing down when things speed up to doing pre-mortems when you're doing planning. And we hope these are tools that you're really going to be able to make use of. Ethan Sawyer (01:36) Whether it's in your office or at home or wherever you are called to lead. If you haven't met Angel Perez before, he is the CEO of an organization that represents more than twenty-five thousand admission and counseling professionals worldwide committed to post-secondary access and success. Prior to joining NACAC in July of twenty twenty, Dr. Perez served in secondary and higher education leadership positions across America. Ethan Sawyer (02:01) most recently as VP for enrollment and student success at Trinity College in Connecticut. Angel strives to build an educational ecosystem that better represents today's society. He is a self-described recovered overachiever, an advocate for counselors everywhere, and I'm proud to say, a friend. We hope you enjoy our conversation. Ethan Sawyer (02:27) One of the things you said on an interview, I don't know if it was with me or with Insight Higher Ed or something, is you said that if you could write another chapter for your book, that you'd want to write a chapter on navigating ambiguity or navigating uncertainty. Yeah. So my thought for this episode is we just do that. We just write that chapter here live. How does that sound? Great. Great. So this Ethan Sawyer (02:56) is personal to me because I grew up, as you know, moving around a lot. You know, missionary kid. Went to 13 schools, moved like 20 times. And for me, there was a lot of uncertainty, a lot of ambiguity, a lot of not knowing if we were gonna be in the same school, not knowing I was the new kid a lot. And it was not easy, you know, growing up in this way. And so this topic is in a way really close to my heart because this is something that I had I had to create. Ethan Sawyer (03:27) a self to navigate that. So I'm curious to hear a little bit about going back to you growing up, what memories do you have around this topic? Uncertainty, navigating ambiguity. Angel Pérez (03:41) Yeah, I think what we share in common is it's deeply personal for me too. You know, I grew up in Puerto Rico and then we moved to the South Bronx. That certainly for a child who's only a few years old creates a certain level of uncertainty, not exactly know where Ethan Sawyer (03:58) Going where Angel Pérez (03:59) you're going or what that experience is going to be like. I didn't move around as much as you did, but certainly growing up in an unsafe environment, because I grew up in the projects of New York City during a Angel Pérez (04:10) pretty unsafe time in in New York City's history and not really knowing what my day-to-day was going to bring or even the uncertainty of going to school and will I arrive safely. And then, you know, and I've spoken publicly about this, there was, you know, alcoholism in my home. My family changed religion several times. There was emotional abuse throughout my entire family. Angel Pérez (04:34) So that creates just a certain level of uncertainty on a daily basis, right? Like what is today going to bring? How will I navigate it? So this topic of ambiguity has certainly been I'm not sure that I had the language to use back then, but it's been with me since childhood. Ethan Sawyer (04:52) Curious to know, like growing up, what are some of the what were some of your anchors? Like what did you orient around when there was so much? Angel Pérez (04:59) I love this question. Uncertainty. Because it's also so related to what I do now. Again, like everything points back to the way that we grew up. My anchor were books. My anchor Ethan Sawyer (05:14) Mm. Angel Pérez (05:15) was school because it was a certain thing. Or it was something that I knew for sure was going to happen. I was gonna go to school every single day. Angel Pérez (05:26) But one of the reasons I love books so much and why I read so much, and to a certain extent why I ended up in academia my entire career is because books gave me a window into a world that I knew nothing about. And it was escapism, right? Like one day I could be in the library and reading about France and what life is like there. And it took me out of my own day-to-day and made me imagine a world that I could not yet. Angel Pérez (05:53) experience. And so for me, escapism was books and school, also because the school was stability, right? School was a particular schedule and it was the only thing I could quote unquote control. Because everything else around me, whether it was the neighborhood that I was in or what it was going to be like when I came home. And there was alcoholism in my family. So you never know what you're walking into when you open that door. The school, the reading, it gave me a sense of peace and structure. Ethan Sawyer (06:22) Yeah. I'm getting that on a deeper level. Like I know this about you, but I'm getting it on a deeper level right now, as you share that. Yeah, I know that from my Angel Pérez (06:28) Park. I I'm curious, yeah. I'm I'm curious about what your anchor is. I can't imagine moving around that much as a child. Ethan Sawyer (06:35) Yeah, I think a couple things. One is like another dynamic that was present in my household is like constant babies. Like there was a point when I you when I turned nine where there was like younger siblings being born at a space of like a year or two. And so I think I took up this role of like caretaking early on. Mm-hmm. And even though and it's hard for me to speak to like the early, early, like what did I anchor on? I I I don't remember. Ethan Sawyer (07:02) you know, when I was in Spain at four years old, like what did I anchor around? I think it's it's too far back. But when I think about like the formative years of like whatever, eight to twelve or eight to sixteen, like really getting into that caretaker role of like the older brother, the older sibling. Right. And I've seen how even today, that older sibling, the what can I do to help, like shows up so much. I mean so much in my work in social situations. Ethan Sawyer (07:31) You know, in conversations. I was thinking about breakfast this morning, I just found myself putting myself back into that role. 'Cause it is a real sense of like safety, stability, certainty. And y and you I mean, we've talked about caretaking a little bit, but I'm curious, did you did that show up in your world at all? Angel Pérez (07:46) Yeah, so I'm an older sibling. My brother is younger. And I also fell into the caretaker role, which I think has lots of benefits and disadvantages as you grow older, because my parents, with a tremendous lack of resources, had to put all their energy into certain spaces. And my brother was younger than me. He needed more care. And so I sort of grew up as the one who took care of things around the house and I Angel Pérez (08:15) cleaned and I made sure that, you know, everything around was okay and my parents didn't have to worry about me. How that has manifested throughout my entire life, to a certain extent has worked really well for me because it's made me an overachiever. But it also has made me like this compartmentalizer. And sometimes I don't let people help me because I'm like, no, I'm the one who's supposed to be the helper. I'm the one who's supposed to fix things. So again, I as I reflect on it, I think, wow, it's Angel Pérez (08:44) Great that I had that opportunity to, you know, be almost a leader in my own home. I think psychologists would call it the parental child. But as you grow older, those ways of being continue with you. And if you don't disrupt those patterns later in life, they can also be a disadvantage. Ethan Sawyer (09:05) I wanna come back to that in a minute, but I wanna like finish answering your question because I kind of switched it to ask you a second question. But I I I wanna say that like I think another thing that I oriented around was how do I make friends fast? Like how do I create a sense of belonging? And like the deeper cut I think was like create a sense of safety and a sense of certainty. And I know that one of the things that I would do is I would get into conversations, deep conversations with people where we would share vulnerabilities. Ethan Sawyer (09:33) And to me that space of intimacy, that space of connection was a real safe space, a space of like, you know, of yeah, of safety, what can I say? And so I've I've seen how that's played out in my life since where when I'm in social situations, I I find that I'm sometimes overwhelmed when it's like especially too many people, and I will seek opportunities to drop in with somebody and to Angel Pérez (09:57) So Angel Pérez (09:58) this is how you navigate a NATA conference. You you see thousands of people and then you try to drop in. Yeah. Ethan Sawyer (10:04) I can see that. This is how I navigate. Like parties, it's how I navigate, you know. And any s any sort of situation where there's just so much to synthesize and there's a lot of input or noise or data or, you know, relationships to sort of navigate. I'm like, how do I get close and create a little pocket of connection with someone? And so that's I've I've seen my orientation for that over the years. I saw it in high school. I was Ethan Sawyer (10:31) kind of known for this in in college, like sort of creating these things. And I think it's continued. And I think my work, like the work of CEG, is really at its heart about creating this space between a counselor and a student so that they can have a connection. And it creates a safety where students are able to make discoveries about themselves. And I think counselors too are able to make discoveries, but it creates a space of like that that's that sense of connectedness that I think. Ethan Sawyer (10:58) is so valuable, especially at this time of of students' lives. So I sort of have seen how it's, you know, played out over time. A thing that I'm curious about is like, do you see that caretaking like the young angel, the like the what what did you call it? The the the parental the Angel Pérez (11:15) Until Charles. Ethan Sawyer (11:16) parental child. Do you ever notice the parental child in your work these days? Like do you ever sense that? Angel Pérez (11:22) Every day. Really? Yeah. Again, what I love about this conversation is I hope the people listening realize that there are so many dots to be connected between the way we grew up and our childhood and even things that we don't pay attention to that have just remained with us unconsciously. And I think Caretaker has remained with me unconsciously. I certainly feel like I am a caretaker in my friendship group and my friends Angel Pérez (11:47) As I've gotten older, have pushed back on me and said, like, let us care for you. And I'm like, no, I can fix this and I can I can be there and I can help. But I think in my current role as NACAC CEO, I I do first of all, I take the role very seriously. I almost see myself as a caretaker of the profession, which I don't think is probably a fair description and probably too much to put on my shoulders, but I see myself as a defender and an advocate. Angel Pérez (12:16) for the people that do this work. And, you know, whether it's at NACAC or when I was at a college or university, I've also led large teams of people. And I see myself as a caretaker of those people and making sure that they are well and that they are positioned to do their best work and that when they come to work, they actually find joy in being in that space and psychological safety, so on and so forth. So I take those things really, really seriously and I would say that's one of the things I'm actually glad that they Angel Pérez (12:46) caretaker child version of myself has sort of evolved into adulthood. Ethan Sawyer (12:54) The thing that I see in you, and I don't know if we've ever talked about this, but is being a watcher and a reader of rooms. Ooh. An ability to sort of Angel Pérez (13:06) yeah. Ethan Sawyer (13:07) read a situation. Angel Pérez (13:08) Yeah. I I think that comes from childhood as well. And I I've actually read some psychological research about this. Children who grow up in dangerous environments tend to, not all, but one of the skills that they hone very early on is the reading of a room, getting a sense of other people's emotions, and always being sensitive to other people's emotions. Angel Pérez (13:34) And so I'm grateful for that superpower even though I developed it under defin even though I developed it under difficult circumstances, but I do consider it to be a superpower. Ethan Sawyer (13:44) Yeah. I I'd I'd love to hear more about this. Like what do you feel like over the years? What has that like what have been the gifts of that superpower? Angel Pérez (13:54) I think there's been lots of gifts, but I think the biggest one is being able to have a sense of other people's emotions. And so I don't know if you've ever experienced this. I think everyone at some point has probably experienced this. Like you might be in a room and you realize that the person across from you is having a different conversation or is clearly not picking up on a vibe. And it's very rare. Angel Pérez (14:21) That I'm in a situation like that because I'm always thinking about what is that other person's vibe and how are they feeling? Like I have an inclination towards really thinking about other people's feelings almost to a fault. And so for me, I do consider that a gift because I feel like I can check in with people and I can make sure that people are okay. But I will also say, and maybe you've been in this situation before as well, have you ever gone to a presentation at a conference? Angel Pérez (14:47) And you're listening to the person speak and you're like, my gosh, this person is not reading the room. They came in with a script and they're just going on and on and on, but they're not vibing with how people are feeling and responding. And so I also think that it has served me really well as someone who speaks to thousands of people and have to adjust oftentimes on the fly based on what's happening in the room. It's it's certainly a gift. Ethan Sawyer (15:12) Yeah, what I hear you talking about is what I'm thinking of as attunement. Really? It's tuning into what's going on with the other and what's going on with self in a relational moment. And what I experience with you is like an ability to listen while you're talking. And I think that that has me, like when I engage with you, feel safer, feel more connected to you because I sense that you're that you're with me, even if you're Ethan Sawyer (15:42) sharing something. But if the thing that you're sharing is for you in some sense, like you're working on an idea, there's a way that you're still connected to the us. So that it's actually for our connection or something like that in a way. Angel Pérez (15:54) I think the other thing that it makes this conversation makes me think of in terms of what are the benefits of having grown up like this and then using these skills as an adult. You know, I have this saying and lots of people use it now as well. It's say the thing that oftentimes I'll be in a room, sometimes with an individual staff member, and we're having a tough conversation or, you know, we haven't landed at a place of understanding yet. And I can just sort of sense that this person is off. Angel Pérez (16:23) We're not on the same vibration. And I am more comfortable, especially as I've aged and had more experience, literally stopping the conversation and saying, Can you just say the thing? Yeah. Like, what's really what's really happening here? And I think oftentimes people are just speaking at a circ surface level and not getting deeper. And I think people who are empaths, and I certainly consider myself one of those. Angel Pérez (16:49) And people who have grown up in environments where they're constantly trying to navigate difficult situations or people's feelings have more of an inclination to one, understand that this person is not okay. And I think as you get older and have more experience and you feel more comfortable, you have harder conversations and you can get to the heart of the matter quicker. And again, I consider that skill to be a gift. It has to be honed. Angel Pérez (17:18) And it has to be used well. But now in retrospect, even though all of these skills were acquired through some really difficult moments growing up in my life, now I get to use them for good, which is why I call them superpowers. Ethan Sawyer (17:33) So speaking of difficult moments like that you've navigated, I wanna bring us more to like recent history. And I I wonder if we could pick a moment of let's call it ambiguity for the field, for the profession. And I wonder if you could take us a little bit behind the scenes, like what was really going on for you in that moment. And there are many that we could choose from. You know, here you are, the CEO of NACAC. When you were a kid Ethan Sawyer (18:02) Could you have imagined being here? Angel Pérez (18:04) Absolutely not. I always tell people that life had a much bigger dream for me than I could dream myself. Because I think when you're that age, when you're young, and especially growing up in the circumstances that I grew up in, you really can only imagine as far as the eye can see. So I could see teachers. I actually thought I was gonna be a lawyer because I would watch, you know, Judge Wappner. It's like old school, you know, court TV. Be like, that looks cool. Angel Pérez (18:34) But you don't really have a frame of reference for what different professions could look like. I certainly could not have imagined that I was going to be a CEO and run, you know, a large non profit organization in Washington DC. That I certainly did not have the framework for that. Ethan Sawyer (18:53) Did you have models or anyone early on in life that sort of put you on the path, as it were? Angel Pérez (18:59) I'm not sure that it was one particular person that put me on the path, but I would say, you know, Oprah Winfrey talks about life speaks to you in whispers. And if I reflect, and I've done a lot of reflection about my my life, it was a collection of people who whispered into my ear and who saw things bigger in me. For example, Angel Pérez (19:27) Miss Joyce Hansen in the seventh grade, who was my English teacher and taught creative writing. And the fact that she leaned over to me and said, Like, you're a really good writer. You should never give up on doing that. Someday you might write a book. She said that to me, seventh grade. And here I am. I wrote a book. Probably will write more. That was someone who saw something in me, you know, and the fact that she she said that to me. Angel Pérez (19:55) It's one of things that makes me so passionate about this profession because as school counselors, as admission officers, as people who work in education, we have the opportunity to do that every single day, to tap a kid on the shoulder and just give them that kind of reassurance. Right. When I got to high school, it was the high school counselor with 700 kids in her caseload who stopped me in the hallway and said, young man, have you ever thought about going to college? Angel Pérez (20:22) The answer was no, because I didn't have a framework for that. I grew up in the era of the Cosby show. And so I knew that Theo on the Cosby show went to college, but that was about it. No one in my neighborhood was going to college. This was not, and no one in my family was in college. And so that was another whisper, right? Even though pretty direct conversation. And then it just kept going as I got to college and throughout my career, people who tapped me on the shoulder and saw potential in me. Angel Pérez (20:49) There were a lot of people that saw me as a leader much earlier on. And I I could not have seen that, but you know, they reflected to me like, the way you speak and the way you have a bias towards action. We were just talking about this earlier. The way, you know, you're you're always on the go and and you're always so interested in helping others. That's a leader. But I couldn't put that picture together myself. So I'm grateful for all those people. And what Angel Pérez (21:18) I try to do now and what I'm most passionate about is paying it forward and trying to tap the next generation on the shoulder and showing them the talent that I see in them that has great potential. Ethan Sawyer (21:30) I'd love to come into more recent history. I wonder if you could I wonder if you could find a moment in the last few years, say, of great uncertainty or ambiguity and sort of take us behind the scenes for just a minute and let us know what was going on in your head, in your heart. Angel Pérez (21:48) First thing that comes to mind is my first year on this job. I started July 15th, 2020. We were in the middle of a pandemic. There was an incredible amount of certainty about whether we were getting out of a pandemic. There was no vaccine yet, anything like that. NACAC and many other nonprofit organizations and colleges and universities were in financial crisis. Angel Pérez (22:13) Right, so many of our revenue streams were disrupted because we are so dependent on in-person programming. We were also facing racial reckoning in the United States, right? We had just experienced the murder of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor, and there there was so much happening in the world, and it all landed at the footsteps of NACAC because our members are human. Angel Pérez (22:40) And they are all experiencing all of these different things. And so I was brought in at a moment where the board said they wanted the organization to move in a different direction. But this was before the pandemic. Now you add on top of that a pandemic, a financial crisis, not knowing whether or not we were going to survive financially and dealing with the very real emotions that our members were feeling about what the profession. Angel Pérez (23:08) means for marginalized communities and how many members of our profession expected me to respond to it. That was a hard moment. And there was a lot of ambiguity flying around and a lot of expectations. Everyone had a different opinion of how I should handle each of those situations. Ethan Sawyer (23:28) What did that experience teach you? Angel Pérez (23:32) Lesson number one. It taught me a lot. And I'm really grateful for it. Let go of control. Let go of control. I think when you're an overachiever and you enjoy doing things really, really well, you want a sense of control. And I think what that experience taught me is I have no control over what's going to happen tomorrow, what I'm going to have to deal with. Angel Pérez (24:00) So now I really I don't use the word control. I use the word influence, right? So I wake up every day and despite the fact that we're still in a very uncertain time, I say, What are the things that I can influence today? I don't say what can I control? Because I no longer feel like I'm in control. The other thing is it's taught me to be slower, which is not Angel Pérez (24:24) My natural inclination, I'm a very hyper individual. I go at the speed of light. My friends are always like, You need to calm down. Actually, and I've shared this publicly, you know, one of the one of the things that every supervisor I've ever had in my life, from college presidents to knack ac board chairs, one of the things they always say to me is, Angel, people do not tend to move at your speed. So you need to slow down a little bit and bring people along. Angel Pérez (24:53) And the reason I say I've learned to slow down is because I think in crisis and in moments where there's so much going on, so much information you're taking in and you need to make a decision, most people actually make those decisions too quickly. And it's very rare that it's life or death and you have to make the decision right now. And so I have also learned as a result of the pandemic and the last six years really of living in incredible ambiguity is take. Angel Pérez (25:22) The time to think and take the time to really take in as much information as you can before you actually make a really important decision about what you're going to do next. And then I think the third thing would be that I I really have I have this thing that I really credit actually my incoming board chair, Tahiro Crawford, for this. Angel Pérez (25:48) She said to me during a board meeting where I was facing a very difficult decision that I had to make. And everyone was giving me advice. And she waited till the very end and she raised her hand and she said, You need to make the decision that is gonna help you sleep best at night. And it's always stayed with me that in the end, I have to sleep at night. And so even though a lot of these decisions are so complicated and you know you're not gonna make everybody happy, I still have to make the decisions that's based on my values, my own personal. Angel Pérez (26:17) sort of morale or morals. And so I have I have hung on to those over the past six years. Ethan Sawyer (26:26) Yeah, it has me curious Ethan Sawyer (26:28) What do you feel helped you get through that time? Angel Pérez (26:34) A lot helped me get through that time, but one really concrete nugget I think I'll share is I have a leadership principle that I use that has never failed me. And it's that I ask myself a question when I have to make really difficult decisions. And that is, how do I want this moment to be remembered? I think Angel Pérez (26:59) What most people who are not in leadership positions don't realize is that it's not just about the decision you are making as a leader. It's also how people are receiving that decision and who you're impacting with that decision. But everyone's watching and microanalyzing your decision making. So I've realized that I can never go wrong if I ask myself the question, how do I want this moment to be remembered? Angel Pérez (27:29) Because, for example, in both my higher ed career and here at NACAC, I've had to do layoffs. And so many leaders have to do layoffs. It's sadly part of the job when things are not going well financially. And one of the most excruciating experiences that anyone can go through. I always ask myself when I've had to do that, how do I want this moment to be remembered? Because regardless, it's not going to feel good to the staff member who is losing their job. Angel Pérez (27:59) But I've always wanted the person to feel like it was done with grace and kindness and humility. And you know, I'm a believer in soft landings. And so any way that we can help that person move on and support them into their next professional journey, I try to do that so that in the future, that's how it's remembered, despite the fact that it was really difficult. And so for me. Angel Pérez (28:26) The last several years, while certainly navigating ambiguity, it's been pretty tough. I feel like if I ask myself that question when we're making some tough decisions, and my leadership team does this as well, by the way, we do it together, we end up doing things differently. Ethan Sawyer (28:41) I love that. I'm curious if there was anything you would have done differently in that time, say the first six months or year coming into the position with all of that swirling. Angel Pérez (28:53) I'll share two things. And one of them is related to the pause that I actually just talked about. It's I think I would have, I wouldn't have responded so much. And what I mean by that is 2020, 2021 was a really loud time. People were working from home. People were on social media a lot, sharing their emotions. Angel Pérez (29:19) And within the NACAC community, a lot of there were Facebook groups and social media groups, and lots of people were sharing their emotions on social media. And I think I felt the need to respond. And in hindsight, I now realize most things eventually just die. And not everything is a trend. And so I think I would have paused a little bit more. I wouldn't have felt the need to respond. I also am not sure that I would have. Angel Pérez (29:47) made some of the statements that I made. I think we were living in a really difficult time around racial identity. And there was a lot of pressure on me and the organization to make statements around racial identity. And while I think I did the best I could at that moment, with the knowledge that I had, now in hindsight, six years later, I think I would have listened more and spoken less. Angel Pérez (30:14) And I may have resisted the temptation to speak out and virtue signal because I now realize that the most important thing that I need to do as NACAC CEO is uphold our mission and that when I speak out, it has to be related to something deeply connected to our mission. Right? I care about a lot of different issues in the world, but if it is not about college access, Angel Pérez (30:41) making sure that as many young people get access to higher education and related to our mission of empowering college admission counseling professionals, I should not speak out about it. And so I think that's where I've really evolved in my thinking. And the NACAC board has also evolved in its thinking. We actually have a statement on statements, which sounds really silly, but we are now very clear because the pressure is still there. I get emails all the time from Angel Pérez (31:07) members and community members asking us to make statements about things which are all really important things but not related to the work that we do. Ethan Sawyer (31:16) I sense now there's there's a lot that you're saying and I'm really appreciating and I also sense that there's like something that you're not saying. Mm-hmm. And this I'm like is there anything that you're not saying here? Like what I guess what I'm wondering is what did doing so cost you? Or in retrospect with the wisdom, like why? Why would you have not spoken up or spoken out? Angel Pérez (31:41) I realize one, there is no winning. And what I mean by that is that by speaking out about one particular issue or around one particular racial identity or one particular crisis event that is happening at the moment, you are making a few people happy in this corner of the world and upsetting the other people on that corner of the world. And also making other people feel like, well, you didn't speak out about me. Angel Pérez (32:10) And my community's in crisis too, right? I'll give you an example. I still get a lot of requests and did when I first arrived around natural disasters. Because our members are all over the country and all over the world. So when there is a massive earthquake in China, I am getting emails from members saying, What are you gonna say about that? How do we feel about the NACAC members and their students who have been impacted by this? There are floods. Angel Pérez (32:39) In Vermont. And I'm getting emails saying, what are you going to say about that? And what I realize is it's not that it's not important. Of course that's critically important. But if you hear me putting out statements every single day about every single issue, Then my voice no longer matters. And so now I have a different approach. There are lots of crises happening around the world. And I'll share something that I I haven't put out there publicly, but Angel Pérez (33:04) You know, I I used to get also a lot of pressure around there was a s a school shooting. You should say something about that because they're a NACAC member. What I now do is I reach out to the school directly. And so when I see the news or members of my team see the news and there's something that happened at a school or something that I know impacts NACAC members directly, it's personal outreach. It's not a statement. And I think that's a much better way to Angel Pérez (33:34) address issues and show people that we care. I think the bottom line is I just want people to know that we care deeply and that we are constantly thinking about them, their students, their day-to-day lives. But the way to do it is not a statement. It's personal outreach. Ethan Sawyer (33:56) So one of the things I wrestle with as a leader is just how transparent to be and when. And my instinct is usually to share more. You know, I want to share what I know, what I don't know, what I'm worried about. But, you know, over the years I've learned sometimes it's hard to know exactly what to share. And I still don't feel like I have like a rule for this. How do you decide how much of what you know you should share or how much of what you fear? Ethan Sawyer (34:25) you know, your team gets to see. Do you have you ever had a situation where you've maybe been too transparent, or you know, told people true things that in some ways made a situation worse? Angel Pérez (34:36) I have had situations where my transparency has been made worse because the people I shared with, and this was when I was in higher education on college campuses, had ulterior motives on how to use that information. And so I've been burned several times, but it hasn't made me less transparent. If anything, I still believe really strongly. Let's be as transparent as possible. Yeah. Especially as a leader in an organization with a staff. Angel Pérez (35:05) I want my staff to understand that as you keep moving up the chain, these decisions are not easy and they're not black and white and they're nuanced and they're hard. And I kind of want them to know how we got there. They don't need to be in the room in terms of how the decisions are made, because that's usually a messy process for leadership and the board. However, I want them to understand the process. Angel Pérez (35:33) Another example I'll give, and maybe this isn't directly tied to transparency, but actually maybe it is. When I was a dean of admission, I was actually one of the few deans who would really show everything to my admissions team at the very end of the admissions process. And I would say, okay, we are a million dollars over budget and financial aid. We have to start cutting students. A lot of deans, what they do is they go off with the leadership and they cut the students. Angel Pérez (36:01) And I would just say, no, committee, we're doing this together. And I'm going to show you that the economic model. And the reason I'm doing that is because if any of you would like to become a director and then become a dean and a vice president, this is the work that you're going to have to do. And it's messy and it's hard. And so those levels of transparency, I think, can also be really good for an organization. But I still believe that there's a limit. And Angel Pérez (36:31) You know, I think oftentimes what people want when they want transparency is they want to be in the room where the decision is made, and that's not always appropriate. Ethan Sawyer (36:40) How do relate to being liked when it comes to these big decisions? Angel Pérez (36:45) I've evolved. Ethan Sawyer (36:46) Yeah. Angel Pérez (36:48) I've evolved. I think I'm laughing because when I was earlier in my career, I just wanted to be liked. I think it's natural, right? You want people to like you, they want you want people to respect you. As I've moved into leadership roles, I realize that that's just impossible. It's nice to be liked. That's a that's a good side bonus, but it cannot drive your why. It cannot drive how you make decisions. Angel Pérez (37:14) You know, one my favorite quotes, and I'm not gonna get it exactly right, but in my book, I interview Adele Brumfield from the University of Michigan, and she speaks very clearly about one of the things you better get used to when you become a leader in this field, is saying no a lot and making people upset. It it just comes with the territory. Angel Pérez (37:38) And so I I think if you are going to move into leadership positions, you have to be comfortable with disappointing people. Not that you do so with joy and you want to be very, very careful and understand all of your decision making and who am I going to, you know, who are the people that are not going to be happy with this decision? But I no longer aim to be liked. Again, it's a nice thing. I'm not saying I don't want people to like me, but I realize that my job is. Angel Pérez (38:06) to uphold the mission of the organization, to do the really, really hard things and to make the really difficult decisions in service of the organization and the membership. And that does not always correlate with making people happy. And that's one of the hardest jumps that you have to make when you become a leader. I'm curious, how do you do it? Ethan Sawyer (38:34) I think I've evolved too. I think that I have in me a desire to be liked that comes from growing up. It comes from being, you know, an older sibling. It comes from being a pastor's kid, being raised in the church, you know, going to Christian schools. There was a kind of like Ethan Sawyer (38:56) I don't know. I think that was strong in me. And like I wanted to like play by the rules and be seen and be good, but also be seen as good. And I think those are slightly different, but I think I've I've had both of those operating in me. But I'll use a really recent example. I think the way this has manifested itself is like when I lead team meetings, there's often a thing that will happen. Like team meetings tend to go pretty well. And I think part of that is like I know there are certain questions that I can ask and ways that I can orient Ethan Sawyer (39:26) even in a virtual team, so that it like people come away from that meeting feeling good and feeling like, and that was a you know, well-facilitated meeting or something like that. We had a difficult meeting yesterday. And I think I didn't do my habitual move, which was to like, let's make this okay. Let's make this let's make everybody feel good. Cause I think what I sometimes will do is like I'll notice Ethan Sawyer (39:53) I think I'll have discomfort with something, with the way something is going, and I'll do a thing to like shift the room, but it's really just me sort of projecting my own discomfort out into the room. And so I'll say that like, and this is like a a a capacity that I'm building, but it's the capacity to be with discomfort. And really seeing these as opportunities to sort of I I almost think of it as a muscle, like I'm stretching. Yes. How can I be with more discomfort? Angel Pérez (40:20) And your modeling behavior for your team. Because I think, again, at the at some point they may move on, they may lead their own teams, they may supervise people that watching you sit in that discomfort also sort of shows them the how, but also gives them opportunities. You know, it you I think as a leader, we don't have to always carry it ourselves. You know, I certainly have had many uncomfortable meetings with my leadership team and Angel Pérez (40:51) more and more and part of it is we're well practiced and we've worked together now for six years and really like each other. That part of that like is also just being really honest and pushing back and saying like, really uncomfortable with that. Like could could you tell me more? So it gives them sort of ownership as well. So I'm glad you didn't push back. I think that's great. Ethan Sawyer (41:13) Well, I'm I'm I think I wanna say this to my future self of like, is there a world where I could use this frame? And you know, rather than sort of assign our listeners, hey, use this, here's the thing that I've learned. I'm more like t tasking myself with like, Ethan, can you look at these uncomfortable moments that are coming up, these difficult decisions, as an opportunity to increase your capacity for being with discomfort? Angel Pérez (41:38) Yes. Ethan Sawyer (41:39) That's the capacity that I want to build. That's the kind of Ethan Sawyer (41:43) husband I wanna be, it's the kind of father I wanna be, like being able to Ethan Sawyer (41:49) you know, to be the pond. Not just the ducks, but also like the pond. Angel Pérez (41:55) It's a muscle and you know, I I guess it's cliche. People say you don't grow unless you're uncomfortable. But I do believe that. I do think having some discomfort is where the growth happens. Ethan Sawyer (42:06) Yeah. So I was at a conference last year and one of the speakers was talking about how as organizations change and shift and circumstances evolved, a leader has to change their identity. Yes. Angel Pérez (42:24) Yes. And actually, I really have come into this more recently. And I wanna give a shout out because this did not come from me, but I've several mentors that I go to and one of them is Joanne Burger Sweeney, who's the former president of Trinity. She was my boss while I was there. Angel Pérez (42:48) And I was I'll be honest, I I had a rough year last year. It was one of my toughest years of my career. Talk about uncertainty and ambiguity and all the difficult things I had to do last year. And I called her up one day and I said to her, How did you do it? You you did this thing for eleven years. So she was a a college president during really, really difficult times for eleven years. How did you sustain for that long? Angel Pérez (43:15) And her answer was, I reinvented myself along the way. I was not the same person in year five that I was in year seven that I was in year eleven. And you have to figure out ways, if you're gonna go the long haul in these jobs, to reinvent yourself, to find also different ways of leaning into your joy, to find different ways of dealing with the day-to-day. Because to a certain extent, these jobs have I call them seasons. Angel Pérez (43:45) Right now I'm in like season three, even though I'm starting year seven. I've had distinct seasons. You know, I was in new CEO mode and and building team and, you know, shifting the organization, and then we moved into a different phase of the organization. And now we're in yet a d a different phase. If I I did not evolve and grow and reinvent myself along the way, I I wouldn't have lasted. And so now reinvention is just part of Angel Pérez (44:15) what I try to do every single year. I I try not to do the job the same way. I mean, a few years ago we did a podcast and, you know, you introduced me to Cal Newport and I've started working in seasons. That was something that I learned from Cal Newport. I didn't do that my first couple of years. I'm burned out pretty quickly. And so that was part of my reinvention is working in seasons and not going, going, going until I collapsed. So I'm curious if that resonates with you and if if you've evolved Angel Pérez (44:44) 'Cause you've been doing this for a long time. Ethan Sawyer (44:45) Heck yeah. Well and what's interesting, what a difference between our organizations is like mine started as just me and then it was different when it was me and even just one person part time different when I was hired the first full time person and the second full time person and then, you know, to grow it to three to nine to twenty. Like each one has been then to have, you know, the coaches that we work with now, two things shifted. One is like part of my job became Ethan Sawyer (45:15) Culture. There's no I mean the culture if it's just me, it's like I mean sure, you could call that a kind of culture, but it's it's a different kind of like culture tending, the way that I think of it, that I needed to apply part of my life force energy to is like, what does it mean to work in an organization, this organization? Like what are the how do we Ethan Sawyer (45:40) treat one another, how we talk to each other? How do we and then eventually it was like, how do we start to talk about it? And not just codify it, but like, how do we talk about the ways that we are interacting with one another so that when we're bringing somebody in new, there are ways that we can onboard them to like who we are, besides just sort of like feeling the vibe. It's like, yeah, here are the things that we represent. What are our internal values beyond like our external ones? And then there's this other one where it's like as the organization grew, there there you you kind of go from like Ethan Sawyer (46:10) I don't know what the archetype is, but like warrior or something at the start to be like architect, you know, to creating systems. And and I found that I have a different kind of energy for that. Like I sometimes really love it. Sometimes it's really depleting for me. Cause what I really want to do is like write and teach and, you know, work with students one on one. But there's this other sort of like running a business work that comes along. And fortunately, I have an amazing team. And Ethan Sawyer (46:37) people that are I'm surrounded by who are really skilled and gifted and who get lots of energy from that architecting. But I've noticed that some of that building of the structure, the system, is enlivening to me. And sometimes it's just it's so it cost me so many spoons, so much energy to do that. That that's why again, I'm so grateful for my team. But that architect archetype is one that I had to like take on at least in part. And Angel Pérez (47:06) Especially when you're beginning. I think again, speaking of like how you evolve, in the beginning you're in building mode. So in the beginning, when I in twenty twenty, I didn't have the leadership team that I have today. And so I had to build that team. Yeah. And then we had to calibrate norms and we had to build value systems together and ways of working and being and and we had to Angel Pérez (47:30) get to know each other really, really well. And now they're a well-oiled machine. They meet without me often. I mean, I meet with them on a regular basis, but they have their meetings without me, which is wonderful. And my role now is a lot more outward facing than inward facing. Whereas I would say the first few years, I was trying to do both and boy, that leads to burnout. But I didn't have a choice because we were we were building. Now I could be here with you in California. Angel Pérez (48:00) And NACAC headquarters is running like a well oiled machine because we have masters of their craft who are doing that work. But I couldn't have done that in year one and two. Ethan Sawyer (48:11) I think that's an important way of thinking about seasons too, because there's are seasons within a year, but there's also seasons within an organization within a business. Yes. Of like this is the mode that we're in. And I and I think sometimes it can feel when you're when I'm in that mode, my gosh, it's always gonna be like this. Yeah. Angel Pérez (48:23) And it's not. Ethan Sawyer (48:25) And actually there's like you know, are there ways of studying this, you know? And that's why I think it's so helpful to have mentors, these people on the outside, who sort of go, well, you're in this phase of growth or this phase of the life cycle of, you know. Ethan Sawyer (48:38) the business or the organization, to have that perspective and to be able to put a hand on your shoulder or your leg and say, it this too shall pass. Or, you know, it's not always going to be like this. It reminds me of being a parent and when when my daughter was at the age where she could walk but wasn't quite stable yet. And whenever we were around stairs, I was like, OMG, like my nervous system would be online because I was like, she's gonna fall. And I thought forever now it's social situations. Ethan Sawyer (49:06) I'm gonna have this fear that my daughter's gonna fall down the stairs. And I realized only years later that like, wait, that was bound to change, was bound to evolve. But my nervous system didn't know that. And there was a kind of like foreverness in my head. So now when I see new parents and they're watching for their kids, I just put a hand and I say, you know, in a couple of years, you're gonna be able to be at a party. You're gonna be at a social situation and you're not gonna have to worry about whether they fall down the stairs. And they oftentimes look at me like Ethan Sawyer (49:35) What? Yeah, you know. Really? Angel Pérez (49:38) But also you get me. Ethan Sawyer (49:41) So I've got this interesting version of this problem where my company is like sort of named after me, you know, the college essay guy. And I've spent lots of years trying to build something that, you know, the team owns, but it's sort of my face on the thing. You have a situation where NACAC was here before you and it's gonna be here after you. Angel Pérez (50:05) It's actually turning ninety years old. So Ethan Sawyer (50:06) Ninety years. Angel Pérez (50:08) it's been around for a minute. Ethan Sawyer (50:10) So I'm curious, does knowing the institution is gonna outlast you, does it make it easier to lead or harder? And what do you want to still be in the walls 20 years after you leave? Angel Pérez (50:23) Wow, this is a beautiful framing. And I hadn't really thought about it. But I will say I actually think I wouldn't use the word easier. It's never easy to lead, but I think it's more free. What I say to my staff and to the board of trustees is we are all temporary stewards of this organization. None of us are here for a lifetime. And so our job Angel Pérez (50:52) is to do the best we can to move this organization forward, to make sure it manages the challenges of the day, but to also be innovating so that the next people that will serve as its stewards are set up for success. So in some ways, that's really freeing to me because I do take this is an area where I really take the long view and I realize, okay, Angel Pérez (51:18) What I'm doing right now, even though some days it can feel really exhausting because, you know, we have really long days, but I'm really just planting seeds. I'm just planting seeds for the next person and for the next board, whether that's 10 years from now, 15 years from now, 20 years from now. But the organization will outlive us all. And so to a certain extent, that's freeing. Is it different for you because you are C E G Ethan Sawyer (51:43) Honestly, Ethan Sawyer (51:44) hearing that, I go, I can try that on so easily. And I can go, yeah, like actually I'm just a steward of this thing. I imagine that this thing will outlast me. And there's something like just releases in my belly. I'm just sort of like, yeah. And I'm also hearing this on a life level. Like Ethan Sawyer (52:11) We're all just stewards. Angel Pérez (52:14) It also helps, I'm not sure this was where you were gonna go with it, but I just thought about it. It also helps keep your ego in check. Like as I make decisions, I realize again, this is not about me. This organization has been here a really long time. Yeah. And it's gonna be here for a long time after I leave. And so it keeps your ego in check and reminds you as you make decisions, as you're trying to set the organization up for success. This isn't about me. Angel Pérez (52:43) I'm just a steward. So there there's a lot of benefits to it, to just remembering this will outlast me. Ethan Sawyer (52:50) Where is the angel that is left in the walls years hence? Like what do you hope persists? Angel Pérez (52:56) In the organization? great question. I hope some of the culture persists and I know that culture evolves, but I think one of the things I'm really proud of is we're currently in a phase of the organization, at least at NACAC headquarters. Like there's so much kindness and there's so much care and there's so much passion for the work and the team takes care of each other. And we've built that really intentionally and it's hard work. Gosh, would it be a beautiful thing if that out lasted. Angel Pérez (53:25) all of us who are currently in the building and that the next generation takes a part of that on. I think that would be really exciting. And then I think for for the membership, I guess the the the term care extends there as well. That I think we've been through some really hard stuff as a profession. But I am in awe of the resilience. I've been saying like if we could make it through the past six years, I I think we Angel Pérez (53:54) we can make it through anything. Like I think this was really, really hard. And there's probably some more difficult things coming in in the next several years. But the level of resilience and care, I've never been in an organization where people have been so passionate about an organization, and its success and passionate about this community. I talk to other people who don't work in this industry and I try to share and they cannot comprehend. Angel Pérez (54:21) Why do you all like each other so much? And why do you all care so deeply? And why are you always hanging out with each other? You know, it there's just something so special about this community. I'm pretty sure that's gonna outlast me and you. It will certainly, because it's part of the NACAC culture. And I'm really excited about that. Ethan Sawyer (54:39) As we wrap here, I'd love to just have you speak to those who are listening who are leaders in their sphere. And I'm speaking broadly here, counselors who lead in their counseling office, admission officers who lead in their offices, you know, those in leadership in universities, you know, even parents who lead in their homes. If you could let's do the sticky note thing. If you could put a a one-sentence sticky note. Ethan Sawyer (55:08) on their, you know, refrigerator or on their, let's say their desk at work, what would it say on that that sticky note? What would you want them to keep in mind as leaders? Angel Pérez (55:19) Focus on what you can influence. Again, I started the podcast by saying that I no longer use the word control. I think oftentimes we want to feel like we're in control amidst chaos and uncertainty and ambiguity. And I've removed that word and it's been very powerful. And so if you really reflect on what are some of the things that I can do today to influence Angel Pérez (55:47) this student to influence my daughter, to influence whatever's happening at the university, is very different than saying, what can I control? Because we're really not in control of a lot of things. And interestingly enough, one of the things that I've always felt about leaders, especially in the nonprofit space, is your only real power is the power of influence. Angel Pérez (56:14) Because most leaders in the nonprofit space they respond to boards. They in at universities you have a shared governance system. And so lots of people share decision making. And so I would say put a sticky note, focus on what you can influence. And once you do that, let it go. I think the other part of this is letting go of expecting what the outcome is going to be. We can certainly put energy into Angel Pérez (56:43) a certain thing, but what the outcome is going to be is not up to us. Yeah. I've become quite the stoic in that way. That's something Stoicism teaches you. Angel Pérez (56:56) Thanks for having me. Ethan Sawyer (57:01) Thanks friends as ever for listening. You'll find the show notes at college essay.comslash podcast, including the links to all the resources that we talk about. If you're interested in more from CEG, you can sign up for our newsletter at CollegeEssayGuy.com and we'll share with you our latest resources, our upcoming free live events. Usually those happen pretty much every week, and lots more. Thanks, y'all, and stay curious.
