706: On Becoming: The Art and Craft of Personal Storytelling (Ep 6: Raspberry Sky) with Wendy Zheutlin

Wendy Zheutlin (00:00)
you

Ethan Sawyer (00:02)
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friends and welcome back to the podcast. This is our series on becoming the art and craft of personal storytelling, where we take a close look at personal essays written by real humans. We talk about why we love them, what makes them work and how they came to be. In this episode, I had the honor of sitting down with Wendy Zoitlund, who's not only one of my essay coaches, but she's been a volunteer for the past four years with our Matchlighter Scholars Program. Now, side note,

This is the program where we pair high achieving, low income students with amazing counselors for 10 hours of free one-on-one support. So if that sounds interesting to you, either you're a student who identifies as low income and would like some support, or if you're a counselor who would like to volunteer, you can find more at collegeessayguide.com slash match sliders. So this episode is kind of a rare opportunity because normally we look at student essays, which is amazing, and talk about them.

But this was actually a personal statement written by Wendy herself as part of a course that I led for counselors. So this is her own personal statement, not written for any college, obviously, and it's one of my favorite essays. In our conversation, we get into what the process was like for her who doesn't identify as a writer. We talk about some interesting technique moments where she communicates a whole lot in just a few words. And finally that.

ineffable moment where you figure out what a story is actually about. A little background on Wendy, she earned her BA in psychology from UCSC and an MA in film from Stanford, after which she went on to work on social issue documentaries in film and TV. While raising her family, she worked in both an elementary school and a public library, which she mentions at the start of our session. I hope you get a lot out of this conversation. I know I sure did.

Hi Wendy, welcome to the podcast.

Wendy Zheutlin (02:05)
Thank you, Ethan, for having me.

Ethan Sawyer (02:08)
I'm so glad. I've been really looking forward to this conversation and I feel really, really honored to be with you and honored that you're sharing this piece with us, which is a, you know, a personal piece. And just to set context for folks who are listening, this was a piece that, that you wrote as part of a course that we did, you know, this personal statement course. And I really love it when counselors like take that, you know, invitation up and like actually go for it. And I felt like you

you went for it and you use this as an opportunity. But I'd love to hear just maybe your context before folks hear the story. What would you like folks to know about either you as a writer or you as the person who wrote this piece?

Wendy Zheutlin (02:56)
So yes, when you gave us the assignment, if we should choose to take it, I was so excited. I'm not a writer. I don't come from a writer's background, nor do I think of myself as a writer. And so it was a wonderful opportunity because I work with students asking them to write. So I wanted to know, what are we putting these kids through? What is it like from the inside out? And so I...

grabbed it and ran with it. I had an idea of what I wanted to do, but I wasn't completely sure. As I say, you I did not come to writing in any linear fashion. I sort of came upon it through storytelling, because I have a background as a filmmaker and have worked in libraries. I'm an avid reader. And so that's where I come to writing. It's not, I have no formal training whatsoever. And so it was a wonderful challenge.

and one that I just thoroughly enjoyed. Not to say that writing's easy, isn't, but I really love the process.

Ethan Sawyer (04:02)
Yeah. Well, I'd love to start with just hearing it as a piece of writing. And if you'd be willing to read it, I would just be so, so grateful. Are you open to reading it so we can hear it?

Wendy Zheutlin (04:13)
I'd

love to read it. As someone who used to work in a library, I love reading aloud. So you're indulging me. All right, this is entitled Raspberry Sky. Every February, the plum blossoms show off their pink and white blossoms that gently flutter in the wind. I am reminded. Zach was only three. We sat outside. It was unusually warm. Zach looked at me. Mama's sad.

I hugged him, yeah, mama's sad. A positive biopsy, breast cancer. At that moment, all I knew was I wanted to see that curly, toe-headed boy grow up. A few months earlier, a miscarriage, and now cancer, again. 10 years earlier, I was diagnosed with colon cancer. This time, the stakes felt so much higher. The day I went to the hospital, the trees were bare.

The surgeon told me I'd be able to go home the following day. My mom came to stay with me in the hospital. After the surgery, as I lay in the bed, my chest began to swell and my blood pressure dropped, plummeted. My mom, a nurse, flew into action. I was whisked back into surgery. A clip had fallen off an artery and I was within minutes of bleeding out. My overnight stay stretched out to 10 days. One night, Zach

snuggled up in bed with his stuffed bunny Babu, wistfully said, I miss Mommy. He thought for a few moments, I guess I'll just have to dream about her. The next day when I heard the story from my husband, I knew Zach would be OK. Only three, he knew how to call upon his inner resources. Driving home, the plum trees were in full glorious bloom.

After the rounds of chemo, the lost hair, the EPO injections to boost my blood count, the oncologist telling me, although he had rooted for me, he didn't think I'd make it. My family drove to Mexico for a life is short sabbatical. We took root in a small fishing village on the Pacific. As we pushed Zach and his orange life vest on a longboard into ankle licking waves, I reflected on the last few months. I was determined I would not let cancer define me.

I knew, of course, it would always be a part of me. It lurks in the shadows, especially when I have a looming doctor's appointment or I feel some weird bump or nodule. Cancer did, however, change my priorities in a few unexpected ways. As an ardent feminist and a person who felt strongly about purpose, I decided to allow work to take a back seat so I could spend time with Zach. After all, I didn't know how much time I had. Not that any of us really does, but

with two cancers in my back pocket. Well, you know, we settled into a sense of new beginnings and possibilities. I came to discover that for me, the most rewarding and humbling experience bar none is being a mom. Rewarding? What an awesome journey. Humbling? Well, boy, did I make lots of mistakes. I still do. Perhaps the biggest misstep was holding too tight. Understandable? Sure, but not great.

I now understand that parenting is a long process of letting go. It reminds me of teaching Zach to ride a bike, hand on the seat. I got you, I got you. And then when he seemed steady letting go, I knew he had it. He could pedal on his own. And of course, when Zach felt wobbly or just wanted to chat or have a piece of chocolate, he knew the chocolate drawer was always there fully stocked. As I continued to unfurl, I found new ways

to connect with Zach. And in doing so, our relationship continues to expand. I meet Zach at the beach after his hours in San Francisco's frigid overhead rugged surf. We walk and talk politics, both fearful of the state of our country, the rise of authoritarianism, the assault on bodily autonomy, rise of white supremacy and anti-Semitism. I hear about the waves barreling his oceanography MA program. It's going.

His long-term partner, Maya, perfect MCAT score, and his favorite new culinary venture, silken tofu and eggplant with red Sichuan peppercorns. As the horizon blushes pink, Zach says, Raspberry Sky, Mom. I smile. Raspberry Sky, indeed. I no longer live in hope for a future. It is the small moments, day to day, that make my heart full. As I continue to ride the waves of my life, I watch that little boy grow into a young man.

And yes, he still relies on his inner resources. But what I have come to know is that growing up or growing is a lifelong endeavor. The plum trees show off once again as they do every year. Their delicate fragrance kisses the air. I delight in the delicate blossoms every year. I want to remember because remembering allows me to move forward.

Ethan Sawyer (09:25)
Wow. Thank you.

Wendy Zheutlin (09:27)
You're so welcome.

Ethan Sawyer (09:29)
it like reading this.

Wendy Zheutlin (09:31)
It brings me back and every year I do look at those plum blossoms and every day I think about Zach. You know, he's still in my life a lot, of course, but like now he's overseas. And I think about those moments in life that...

You know, certainly the, I mean, part of thinking about this story is, you know, cancer, it was such a long time ago for me, and it was at such a pivotal point in my life, in Zach's life, in our family's life, but so much has happened since. And so I don't think I could have written it too much earlier than when I did write it, because it takes time to reflect and to think.

about those events and how they impact you. But the other thing is as a parent, truly one of the things about parenting is you constantly are having to change, even if there's no cancer in your life. It is a constant, you think, okay, fine, I got it. And then sure enough, next year it's like, ⁓ new thing, new challenges, new things. And I know that I'm continuing to write about being a parent, because it is something that I think about a lot and I love.

It is the best thing I've ever done in my life. So this was a moment to reflect on the parenting part of it and how the cancer impacted that. But I know that with or without cancer, I would have come to parenting with similar ideas. I don't think the cancer was truly what defined how I was as a parent.

Ethan Sawyer (11:11)
Yeah. The thing that I feel is captured so well in this story is this continual letting go that happens as a parent. And I, as a parent now of an 11 year old, I have that same feeling of like thinking, I got you, I got you. And then you mentioned the moment on the bike, letting go. And there are all the different ways that we have to learn to let go. And I feel like you capture that so well.

I'm curious what it was like writing about this, writing this story. What was the process like?

Wendy Zheutlin (11:49)
That's an interesting question. mean, that first paragraph came pretty simply to me. That was an easy paragraph for me to write, actually, because I wrote it in such a straightforward way. It was sort of repertoire. It was like reportage. You know, this is what happened. those, the plum blossoms really, that really is what happened. I remember going in on February, whatever it was, and no plum trees.

I happen to live in an area where we just have an abundance of plum trees. So I'm always aware of them. I have been prior to this. And then for me, I'm not someone who likes the dramatic, particularly around health stuff. know, I'm sort of, like personally like to face things head on with calm. And so whether or not I was aware that I was writing it in that way, that was how I approached it. You know, that this is what happened. And then

The story of Zach was really sort of the punctuation point for me of this little boy at home with his dad, missing me. know, Lord, I missed him and I was also trying to be able to just sit up because I had lost all my blood. And, you know, the story that my husband told was just so amazing. I mean, I think that one of the things that occurred to me as I was writing it is how much I learned from my son, from being a parent.

you know, the amazing things that I learned along the way with him. I learned the letting go. But there are so many things like just this, that he had figured out a way to take care of himself. And I thought, wow, that's incredible. He was three and he had figured this out. And I've watched him over the, not that he's any, I he is spectacular because he's my son, but I mean, not that there's anything unusual. It's just that if we pay attention, there is so much to learn from.

people of all ages around us, but from that miraculous relationship between a parent and a child, I find that I learn as much from him as I hope to have taught him or continue to teach him, and that I really do see it as a reciprocal relationship in many ways. whether it's something that's specific to the dynamic between us or things that I can then extrapolate into my own life, like the letting go.

Letting go as a parent is super important, but there's so many other areas in my life where I need to let go. And there's so many other areas in my life where I need to acknowledge somebody else's talents and skills. And there's so many other areas in my life where I understand that being vulnerable, which is part of what this essay, I speak of something that I'm pretty vulnerable in, is that's how you get close to people. Vulnerability is a way that we share.

and we get to be seen by somebody else and know that somebody else is taking us in. And that's what relationships, it's part of a relationship and it's a really wonderful, delicious, delightful part of a really scary, but delightful and wonderful and rewarding part of relationships. So those were things, and I can't say that I set out and thought, I'm gonna touch on all these things. It's just when you go back in it, you start to see, ⁓ yeah.

That's sort of what I was getting at there. ⁓ yeah. so, yeah, those are some of the things.

Ethan Sawyer (15:14)
Yeah, one of the things I'm really struck by as you speak about your relationship to cancer and the way that you, and I make up your, the way that you think about or talk about death is there's ⁓ a factuality in the language here that you mentioned reportage. Like at the start here, you say, every February, the plum blossoms show off their pink and white blossoms that gently flutter in the wind.

I am reminded Zach was only three. We sat outside. There's a sort of like, this is a thing. Like you're just taking notes. Like this is what I observed, but there's the way that you, it's the selection of the details that I find impactful striking. And there's also this interesting thing like tone wise that's happening where you're using short phrases. Zach was only three. We sat outside. It was unusually warm.

My experience as a reader is like, almost like little flashes, like we're in a movie and there's the, you know, I can see you sitting outside, know, mama's sad. I hugged him. Yeah, mama's sad. A positive biopsy, breast cancer, like these short sentences that are so efficient. within the first, I'm looking at this on my screen, like three lines, we've learned the whole setup happens. And it's so...

in a way unsentimental, it's sort of, it's factual. And I just really appreciate that because it allows so much room for me to come in and to have my thoughts and feelings and not feel like, the author is trying to like make me feel a thing. And even the parts that are, that do have emotion in them, there's a sort of directness about it. At that moment, all I knew was I wanted to see that curly-toed headed boy grow up. Like to me, that's factual in its way too.

Wendy Zheutlin (17:11)
Yeah.

Ethan Sawyer (17:12)
And I just, yeah, go.

Wendy Zheutlin (17:14)
Well, I was going to say is I appreciate you noticing that. And part of it is that I, again, it wasn't conscious on my part, but I do not have a sentimentality about it. do, you know, even when I was going through cancer, I was never thinking about the what ifs or why me. It was, what do I need to do to get through this? How am I going to get myself through this? And so that is sort of just what comes with who I am, my package of me. But

part of, you know, I love the way you described it back to me because that is in many ways how I envisioned it, remembering, you know, sitting outside and those phrases. And it's also something that I really love personally in writing is when you can get a lot in in few words. And I think that that's a real, it's something I work on as a counselor to students, you know, in their essays. It's also,

For me, where I think I learned it actually is that as an element reading to little kids in elementary school is all those story picture books have such brevity and so much is conveyed so quickly that I learned that format as one that I really embraced and love because it enables in much the way you reflected back about my piece, it allows little kids to bring their imagination

the story. so without, I just sort of maybe osmosis, I don't know. I mean, I wasn't thinking, I'm going to copy Matt, you know, for Nat's approach, but it was, it is a style that I love. And I love it in longer pieces as well, when you get a lot with very little. And I think it's a really, and I really, and I also obviously really do love.

specificity and details. And that's super important to me as a reader when I'm reading other people's work, but as a writer as well, that those details are really what makes something come alive to me anyway.

Ethan Sawyer (19:16)
really feel that here. There's something else that's structurally happening in the first paragraph that I want to name. And I'm like excited that I get to ask the author because as you were reading it just now, I wondered about this. So the first sentence begins, every February, the plum blossoms show off their pink and white blossoms that gently flutter in the wind. And then in the middle of the first paragraph, there's this trip to the hospital and it says, the way to the hospital, the day I went to the hospital, the trees were bare.

So the trees come back in the middle of the paragraph, there's this experience of, you know, the clip falling off an artery. was bleeding happening this moment when, you know, your husband comes in, relates that story about I miss mommy. And it says at the end of this paragraph, the next day, when I heard the story from my husband, I knew Zach would be okay. Only three, he knew how to call upon his inner resources, which is a powerful sentence to me on its own. But the question that I have is about the next one. When you come back, say,

driving home the plum trees were in full glorious bloom. Will you speak just a little bit about the plum blossoms and the plum trees? Cause they appear several times here. however, whatever you want to say about it, like what's happening in terms of setting up what seems like a motif.

Wendy Zheutlin (20:30)
Yes, definitely. A couple of things. One, the plum blossoms are a wonderful metaphor because they're fragile and they come every year, but they're very fragile. They have a short life. Those blossoms don't live long, but they do renew. They do come back. So they're this wonderful metaphor, but they also are a metaphor of new beginnings. And the other thing, just from a writerly point of view, and again, I'm not a writer, but I really love when paragraphs or

pieces start, you think you're going in one direction, like maybe we're going to be doing something about nature here. And then I take a sharp 90 degree turn into something completely different. And then we come back, the callback at the end of the piece. And it's just a preference that I have, it's a bias I have in writing. And I like using those kinds of motifs because I use it those three times in that paragraph and I come back to it as the callback in the end. And for me, it was both the

Again, did not set out to do it that way, but in thinking about it, that is one of the things that comes from it. And also, you know, using the bare trees in the middle of it is also sort of the bare, not knowing what's going to happen, you know, with, hopefully many people who listening to us have not ever had to do this, but going to hospital for surgery is really scary.

And especially when you're a parent and it's just that sense of barrenness is really there and then coming home and the blood. So that was sort of where I came. But I think more than anything, it really was also the stark contrast between the beauty of the blossoms and the both beauty and scariness in life. You know, the beauty of this relationship with my son and my family and the sadness of having to go through

what I had to go through. Not sadness. I wouldn't say I was sad that I had to go through it. It was more the, just one of those things that happens in life for some people.
Ethan Sawyer (22:37)
Thank you. Yeah, I'd love to talk about what's happening in the second paragraph. Actually, you know what, let me say something else. Yeah, as you say all that, Wendy, I'm also present to how there's this dramatic irony that's happening in my head as I read this story, because I see a story about someone who is confronting their own mortality. And there's some part of me that wonders, like, did she make it? And of course, I know that there was an author who wrote this.

who lived to tell the tale, as it were. But that's an interesting thing that's happening in my brain as I'm reading this story. It adds an interesting layer of complexity. After the rounds of chemo, the next paragraph begins, the lost hair, the EPO injections to boost my blood count. The oncologist telling me, although he had rooted for me, he didn't think I'd make it. My family drove to Mexico for a life is short sabbatical. We took root in a small fishing village on the Pacific.

As we pushed Zach and his orange life vest on a longboard into ankle licking waves, I reflected on the last few months. Now, I love where this goes, because there's suddenly, it just takes so many different directions and I get to learn so much about you and how you mentioned it shifted your priorities as an ardent feminist and a person who felt strongly about purpose. You decided to allow work to take a back seat so you could focus and spend time with Zach. After all, you say, I didn't know how much time I had.

not that any of us really knows, but with two cancers in my back pocket. Well, you know, and this moment here, well, you know, I love it. I love it so much because it feels like it's so human. It's exactly what I could imagine you saying if I was sitting across from you having a cup of tea and it's doing that.

that thing where it's like, it's funny. Like I'm, and it's really freaking serious. And that seems to be another example of this, like, I don't know, juxtaposing two things that are sort of two different modes as it were. We settled into a sense of new beginnings and possibilities. I came to discover that for me, the most rewarding and humbling experience bar none is being a mom. I can feel your orientation, you know, shift and how I imagine your life shifted then.

humbling, well, boy, I make a lot of mistakes. I still do. And these, little sentence like this, this little aside where I feel like I get into your brain and heart in a really lovely way. And again, there's like such an economy of this. You do it in three words. I still do, you know, I still make a lot of mistakes. And then you mentioned perhaps the biggest misstep was holding too tight. And this is my, my favorite part that my, that I mentioned earlier.

Understandable, sure, but not great. And you know what parent can't relate to that. I now know that parenting is a long process of letting go. That reminds me of teaching Zach to ride a bike and on the seat. I got you, I got you. And then when he seemed steady, letting go, I knew he had it. He could pedal on his own. And of course, when he felt wobbly or just wanted to chat or have a piece of chocolate, he knew the chocolate drawer was always there fully stocked. As I continued to unfurl, I found more ways to connect with Zach and in doing so,

our relationship continues to expand. And I love that you switched from continued, you know, from the past tense to continues the, you know, present, you know, this is happening. I'd love to just hear a little bit behind the scenes on this paragraph. You mentioned the first part sort of came easily and it was more reportage. How did this second section come to be?

Wendy Zheutlin (26:13)
This one was a little harder because, let me just pull it up so I have it right in front of me. You know, the part about the movie, you know, we did decide that, goodness, know, Zack was five, it was before school, let's take advantage of it and let's drive down to Mexico and live there for a year. again, so that was just sort of the reporting, but it was also sort of, I wanted to capture a little bit of the...

the beginning of like, was a lot that goes on after the hospital, you know, for me at any rate, the chemo and the, you know, because they weren't transfusing blood in those days, so I had to do EPO and, you know, all of the things that went into that. And then sort of this sense also of the new beginnings. But what really, you know, I wrote this paragraph several times, I wrote all of it lots of times, but this one I wrote a lot because I was trying to figure out what, what...

do I want to get at here? know, was it, did I want to show more of my background? And I thought, no, not really. I don't need to say all the things that I used to do. So I thought, you know, I can just say that I've always had purpose about my life, but this was the shift. And then that was, think, at the moment that I did all that editing, I realized this is really about my relationship with Zach, too, in a big way. And so it was also a really significant trip.

for the three of us in all of our lives. mean, it was how Zach got attached to surfing and it was, you know, my husband took a sabbatical, he's a teacher, his teacher took a sabbatical and it was taking this time of saying, you know, life is to be lived, you know, really. And it's something that, you know, I wanted to capture without making big proclamations about it, but just showing how we had made that decision as a family. And then as I, once I sort of,

thought about it, thinking about the... It was always clear to me that I was not going to let cancer define me. mean, again, it really, it is always there. I mean, every year I could do my annual, it's there. know, every time those blood tests come back, it's there. But it doesn't take over in the way that it did. And I really wanted to figure out...

how to move forward, you know, having two cancers in my background, being a cancer survivor. It is part of who I am for sure. And it's something I'm proud of actually, you know, that I've made it through. But it really was, again, this is less about cancer and much more about how it helped me refocus on my relationship with Zach. And then this thing about the, you know, with the two cancers in my back pocket, that I like to use my humor when I can.

And that is a little piece of my humor. It's kind of like, know, what are you going to do? And the more I can bring those in whenever I write anything, I like to. And I love to see humor in writing. I really do. I think it's a gift if anyone can do it. I'm not great at it, but I love to see it when it just comes naturally out of the set of circumstances that one's describing.

Ethan Sawyer (29:24)
Well, I think you're great at it. And it's subtle here too, which I really appreciate because I think that sometimes, you know, in writing, you know, it's, can be pushed or even like an essay short like this. can sort of, you get a sense of striving and I don't get a sense of striving like you're not going for, you know, the belly laughs here. It's just, it's, it's that meta awareness of the

the nature of things. And it gives me a little more room to come in. It's just a beautiful technique too. It's something that it just, this is like a side note to students who are listening to this and thinking, maybe I'll write about a challenge that I faced. Like bringing a little humor just gives that breath just, and we can just be a little more, you know, human together. There's something that you mentioned that I want to zoom in on and it's the, it's well in this paragraph, I think you're talking about the moment

or the week or month where you realized this is really about parenting and this is what I want to make this time about, that orienting moment, I'll call it. And you mentioned that there was a point in the process where you sort of had a realization that, that's what this story is about. Can you say a little bit to folks listening and maybe even students who are listening who are like,

wondering, well, how do I figure out, how do I know what my story is about? Like, it goes so many different ways, right, for so many different students, but how does a student figure out what their story is about? How does that, how does that go?

Wendy Zheutlin (31:04)
That's a great question, Ethan. mean, that really is a good question. I think part of it is, and it's something that I do for myself and I do it with students within my work, is what is it I want to be conveying to my audience, whomever they may be? What is it that...

what's my underlying message here? Or not even a message. What's my underlying theme? Or what's my underlying, what am I trying to say? know, sort of like those moments maybe even when you're in a disagreement with someone and you sit back and you think, what am I trying to say here? You know, I'm just responding. Now let me take a breath. And what is behind all of this emotion I'm feeling? And so I think it's one of those things that with a student,

And I've certainly experienced this in working with students. Sometimes we can get caught up in the beautiful descriptive language and wordsmithing, and then we're like, whoa, whoa, this is lovely, but what is this about? And you have always been wonderful as a coach tusk, coaches about orienting and setting up ⁓ a guidepost or a guardrail so that the reader understands. And so I always have those words sort of in the back of my mind when I'm

working with students or when I'm working on my own stuff of like, what do I want someone to understand about this? And giving them a little bit of soft guidance, as it were, very, very soft, not like pointing them directly in this direction, but what's underneath this? And I think that

Sometimes, I mean, I can't remember who said this. I remember reading somebody saying, sometimes I write just to see what I think. And sometimes I do write to see what I'm thinking. And then when I go back, I'm able to go, oh, I'm seeing now what this is about. And I don't have to bring everything to the table. And that's one of the reasons why I love this format, the very short format, is because it really does make the writer figure out what they want to say. Because you don't have a lot of words.

And you can't sort of circle around the idea for many, many pages to figure out what it is. You really kind of have to. And that's just a process of writing and rewriting. That's just, and sitting with yourself and taking walks or going swimming or whatever where one does, one's percolating. I find for me, my best thinking comes when I'm not at the computer, when I go away from it. I write something and then I walk away and I take a walk or I go for a swim. And then that's when I go, yeah, no, that.

It's somewhere else here. So part of it's the editorial process. Part of it is seeing what comes out. But when I'm coaching, I'm far more intentional in how I do it, helping students figure out by asking questions. And what is it you really want to say? And it's not always that apparent. Sometimes it takes a while. It's not an easy thing to always understand.

Ethan Sawyer (34:14)
It's quite a mysterious thing, think, actually, like finding the thing that wants to be said. Sometimes I think, you know, somebody can sit down and be like, I'm going to write a thing about X and maybe it ends up after all being about X. And then other times it's like, well, I'm going write a thing about X. And then it's like, well, suddenly it's about Y. And then before I know it, we're finding that Z is actually living pretty large and actually Z is a pretty interesting thing.

as coaches will sort of be like, all right, well, let's talk about Z because that seems to be the thing. there's no like, in my experience, there's no like one particular way that this goes. You know, we're sort of creating a space, you know, a container for insights to happen and for us to make discoveries along the way. And it's so, I just present to like how lucky students are to have you to be the, you know.

curator with them to sort of go, this is an interesting piece, you know, and pick it up. I maybe, I don't know if I've said this on the podcast before, but I often think of this as sort of spelunking where we're going to going into caves of awareness and we each have our own headlamps and we're sort of poking around in the dark corners and sort of seeing what's there. And then we discover, this is about my relationship with my son. Okay.

Wendy Zheutlin (35:36)
Yeah. And if one's open to it, it's a wonderful process because it's another form of self-discovery or introspection or finding what percolates to the top if you have the time, if you're not applying to college. I'm not applying to college. But it is a wonderful part of the writing process if one's open to it in terms of sort of

moving away from this should be about X. I'm going to sit down and write a story about if you allow yourself to be expansive in that way. It's just a wonderful, it's a gift to oneself, I think, to be able to do that.

Ethan Sawyer (36:18)
You know, as you say that, Wendy, you know, it occurs to me that there is that option for parents. And I will say, if there are any parents listening who are like, I would like to write a personal statement, I want to say go for it, because that can be a pretty cool experience to write alongside your student as they're going through this. I want to reread the last paragraphs here again, because there's so much here still. You say, I meet Zach at the beach after his hours in San Francisco's frigid overhead rugged surf. We walk and talk politics.

And there are all these wonderful parentheticals that you use and people won't know. So I'm just going to highlight when the parentheticals happen. So here's one parenthetical that mentions, you know, both fearful for the state of the country, the rise of authoritarianism, the rise of white supremacy, antisemitism. I'm fast forwarding a little bit. And then there's the next out of parentheses. I hear about waves in parentheses barreling his oceanography, MA program, parentheses, bits going. Again, great examples of just

doing so much, like we get the whole conversation in, you know, 40 words. And I imagine it was a long conversation. And then these specific details of like, as the horizon blushes pink, Zach says, raspberry sky, mom. I smile, raspberry sky indeed. I no longer live in hope for a future. It's the small moments day to day that make my heart full. And then the very, very end.

Well, actually, let me just pause there. And I'm just curious, as you hear any of that, what comes to mind?

Wendy Zheutlin (37:49)
I think that I wanted to convey sort of the ongoing nature, both of our relationship, that it continues to grow, you know, we continue to share. But also, you know, one of the things that was highly intentional, I love parentheticals, because I think you can get a lot across. And it was really playful for me to try and get at some of those details and the specifics and the specificity and

If for no other reason, in some other way, you know, I have sort of a collection of things I've written about Zach throughout his life that I keep for him so he will have them as a memoir, as something for him, you know, from his mom, and a gift from me. you know, this was captures a moment, because when I went back and read it, I was like, I wrote this a while ago, know, Maya's just got accepted to med school and, you know, Zach is finished. You know, I was going through the things of like, but I thought, no, keep it where it is.

But as writing it, it's also capturing the movement forward, you know, of like having this essay start with the cancer, but then also that we continue to move forward and we continue to see each other. And then the raspberry sky is something we've done all our lives, you know, and I, even when he's traveling, I'll send him a picture, you know, out the window, raspberry sky, Zach, you know, and he'll send me sunset. You know, it's something we've always shared. It's something we share and appreciate. And so it was a way to show

sort of a connection that was both a little less sentimental but also terribly sentimental, you know, simultaneously because it's just such a lovely thing to share with somebody. But without sort of, because I've read plenty of things where someone goes, I'd like to go and watch The Simpsons. It's like, yeah, it's a little flat. And so wanting to do it in a different way, trying it in a different way. So, and I do, I really love very specific language, just

you know, details that share who somebody is.

Ethan Sawyer (39:46)
Yeah.

What have you learned over the years about writing or helping others write about difficult things? Like, what tends to work well? What tends to work less well? This is just a sort of little, maybe like a little advice giving moment. What advice would you give about writing about challenges?

Wendy Zheutlin (40:09)
That's a good question. Typically, I think that the first step always with anyone who wants to, feels like they want to say something or write about it is just write. know, write whatever journal, whatever format feels comfortable to the person writing. Write about it from whatever angle, whatever emotions, whatever comes to mind. Because the editing can always come later. And the context can come later.

But allow yourself to just write about it, whether it's something that's causing anxiety or some scary thing or something that you're holding as a secret from somebody, whatever it is, write it, or whatever challenge. And then, I remember working with a student who had scoliosis and had several surgeries on her back.

It had shamed her all her life. And I remember bringing up, and I'm not going to get the proper name, but the Japanese art form where they use the gold filament of a broken ceramic piece. And I talked to her about it. She wasn't aware of it, but we talked about it. And I was talking about finding the beauty in something that's broken. And that's why this art form is so important in Japanese culture, because it's finding the beauty in something that has things that are broken is actually more beautiful.

And it's the same with you know, weaving in mistakes into the rugs, you know? And so, you know, the first layer or the first step is just to write in whatever form, if it's stream of consciousness, if it's a story, whatever, and then to go back in and start to look for what are the elements here? What are those?

gems or nuggets that that what threads can you start to see coming through? What themes do you start coming through? What is it that then you want to convey to an audience? You know, I mean, there's one thing to write privately. But then if this is writing for somebody else or an admissions officer or for friends and family or a larger audience, what is it that then you want to take this experience or this thing in your life? And what about what about it? You know, the so what of it all? You know, how do you put it into its context?

And how do you relate it to other parts of your life? Because whenever any of us have encountered a difficulty, inevitably it has, because who we are, there are so many themes and threads that all connect. It connects to other parts of our life. They're not isolated. It's not as if a challenging event happens and then it's put away. You can compartmentalize. It's not the greatest way to go, but you can. it then...

And it's not even so much as what can you learn from it because that kind of bothers me too because I don't think that there's always learning moments in hardship. Sometimes it's just playing hard and that's okay too. But I think that it's letting, figuring out what it is right and then go back and figure out what is it here? What do I want? What are my themes? What are my threads here? How can I weave this? And how can I connect it to other parts of my life?

That's sort of a little tidbit of how I would approach it.

Ethan Sawyer (43:27)
Yeah, when I read your writing, when I hear you reading, there's this meaning making that's happening. And it feels so intimate. And because these are such personal experiences, those little moments, those insights that seeing you arrive at those, or like reading the piece and imagining when you arrived at those feels like I'm getting to like discover self and discover the world right alongside you.

which is certainly what happens when we are doing our work with students. I just feel really grateful for the meaning making. There's a way that I imagine that you are orienting as a writer in this piece to go like, all right, what can I, what is my so what here in a way that me understand myself. And in you doing that, I think I understand more about the world just a little bit.

I want to read the ending here again as I continue to ride the waves of my life. You say I watched that little boy grow into a young man. And yes, he still relies on his inner resources. But what I've come to know is that growing up or growing is a lifelong endeavor. The plum trees show off once again as they do every year. Their delicate fragrance kisses the air. I delight in the delicate blossoms every year. I want to remember because remembering allows me to move forward.

I'm curious, I'd love for you to say whatever you feel like saying about the ending. And if you say, Ethan, I don't want to say anything about the ending, that's an okay answer.

Wendy Zheutlin (45:03)
Well, part of it is that I do every year look at those blossoms. There's a particular stance of them that's by a walk that I do. And even this year was walking with a friend and they were in bloom. And I said, do remember that piece I wrote that there they are, there's those blossoms. And she said, thank you for sharing, Wendy. And it is one of those things. I mean, this is just, it's one of the more cliched things about nature is the cyclical nature of it. And that's life is cyclical.

I mean, that is part of sort of understanding, you we get onto this like, we very go around a little bit and there are cycles that go through and this is just a little anecdote, but I remember when the first dog we had, Zach was eight when the dog died and it was really hard for him. He loved that dog. And so we made a slideshow and then we put the circle, you know, the Joni Mitchell song.

you know, the circle song or circle game, whatever it is about life and cycles and stuff. And so I think a lot about cycles. And to me, that's what those plum blossoms are, is the cycles of life. And part of the cycles of life relate to being a parent. Part of it relate to my health and my when I wasn't, when I was going through cancer and different times in my life.

I think that nature is an overdone cliché about that, and I tried not to make it overdone, but it is really the sense of, hopefully those blossoms will keep happening in much the same way that hopefully I'll keep getting to watch Zach grow and go through his phases of his life and we will continue to share. so that was sort of what I was thinking. And also that

It is, you know, one of the things that I really do believe is it's really humbling to be a person and it's really messy and it's really complicated. And I just feel like that's, I love that about it. I love the messiness of being human. I love that things aren't tied up and you know, it's confusing and complicated, but just lovely too. And it's...

sort of one of my themes always of one can hold two truths always. And so I always try to sneak that in a little bit somewhere in what I write because I think it's true. There can be these beautiful blossoms and there can be cancer and there can be this lovely little boy who's grown up and someday I'll write about the things that are challenging or something that the one thing that I have to say that was probably the most rewarding part of writing this.

in many ways was I, Zach asked if he could read it and I see was in Indonesia surfing at that time and I sent it to him and he called me up immediately and he said, mom, I, I I've only read the first paragraph and I'm just weeping. And then he finished it and he called back and he said, thank you. And it was, you know, it was one of those moments that, that's appearance pretty special.

And it is something that he and I share, know, something that I share with him in a way that I don't share with anyone else. And that's part of also, I guess, why I wanted to share in a broader way too, you know, it's the loveliness of that.

Ethan Sawyer (48:34)
Thank you, Wendy. I feel so grateful to be led into your humanness and your process and the messiness and the beauty of it all. I just feel really, yeah, really grateful.

Wendy Zheutlin (48:48)
Well, thank you. And, you know, Ethan, I have to thank you in so many ways, because when I started working for CEG, I was like so deeply intimidated. You know, I was reading everybody's bios and it was like MFA writers. I was like, my, the imposter thing. And what am I doing here? And what I have so deeply appreciated is your sense of humanity, compassion, caring and kindness.

and encouragement. I mean, you have provided, I think for the community at large, for the counselors, certainly for me, I can't speak for others, but certainly for me, an unbelievable extended hand. And for that, I am so deeply grateful. mean, the years that I, my, for lack of a better word, is growth, but my sort of whatever in these last four years has been really wonderful.

And so I thank you, deeply thank you with much gratitude.

Ethan Sawyer (49:51)
Well, thanks for spending some time with me today.

Wendy Zheutlin (49:53)
Thank you for having me.

Ethan Sawyer (49:58)
Thanks friends, as ever, for listening. You'll find the show notes at collegeessayguy.com slash podcast, including the text of Wendy's essay. So you can read it for yourself if you like. If you're interested in more from us, you can sign up for anything at collegeessayguy.com. We'll share with you our latest resources, our upcoming webinars, and pay what you can courses, and lots, lots more. Much love and stay curious.