Show Notes
In today’s episode, Tom Campbell (CEG’s Community Manager) and Susan Tree (a college counseling and admissions legend with 40+ years of experience) chat about all things related to the academic part of a student’s college application— which, at many selective colleges, is seen as the “foot in the door” of their selection process.
This is part 1 of a series we’ll be doing around students’ academic background and interests and how they factor into the admissions process. Part 2 is all about “intellectual curiosity”: a quality that many colleges actively look for in students, yet is a little more ambiguous and nuanced compared to mapping out a high school course plan.
Why these episodes:
According to the 2018-2o19 National Association for College Admission Counseling’s Admission Trend Survey, students’ grades and strength of curriculum are the top two application components that are of “considerable importance” to colleges
During CEG’s Applying to Highly Selective Colleges & Universities Course, the section on academics received the most questions out of all other application components— and elicited the most confusion!
While we aren’t able to give all students and families who come to us for support individualized guidance about their particular high school (though we do offer comprehensive college counseling at CEG!), we wanted this podcast to provide the most comprehensive advice possible around academic choices
On the episode you’ll hear Susan and Tom discuss:
Why taking five solid academic courses (English, math, social studies, science and language) each year of high school gives students the broadest range of exciting college options
How advanced course rigor (including Advanced Placement/AP and International Baccalaureate/IB courses) is evaluated by colleges
The potential danger of “overspecialization” in an academic subject too early
The value of demonstrating self-directedness in your academic journey— and where do to that in an application
How admissions officers evaluate and contextualize your transcript and high scho0l profile when making admissions decisions
Play-by-Play:
5:33 – So… Why are we talking about planning your HS Academic Journey?
8:28 – What are the benefits of planning your HS experience early?
10:39 – What do colleges expect from students?
11:08 – How do you check a college website for their required HS coursework?
12:48 – How is it different at more competitive universities?
8:14 – What if your HS doesn’t offer opportunities for the classes you want to take?
14:44 – What is the value of self-directedness?
15:06 – How do I better understand how my school is viewed by admissions officers?
17:19 – What do admissions officers want to know about the school as it relates to your academic record?
19:24 – Why you should be looking at your transcript and school profile side-by-side
21:32 – Thinking like an admissions reader
22:26 – Transcripts vs. report cards
23:38 – How being aware of what colleges have access to can help you be strategic
25:44 – How do you put your academic experience into perspective?
27:18 – What students often don’t realize about their application evaluation
29:50 – How important is it to tell your own story
31:28 – HS Counselor Tip: Your School Profile
32:56 – AP (Advanced Placement) course considerations
35:11 – How will colleges view XYZ courses? Which course is better?
42:24 – Why are some independent schools getting rid of AP (Advanced Placement) course offerings?
44:00 What does Susan think about IB (International Baccalaureate) Curriculum considerations?
47:50 What if my high school doesn’t offer AP or IB course options?
49:58 Key Takeaways from Today’s Episode
Relevant Links
Show transcript
Tom Campbell 0:07
Tom, welcome back to the College Essay Guy podcast. My name is Tom Campbell, and I'm college essay guy's community manager and a new co host of the podcast. I like to joke that I'm not the College Essay Guy, but I am a College Essay Guy. Insert Dos Equis man meme probably something that only the millennials tuning in. May remember, if you tuned in because you wanted Ethan to do a soothing, tranquil ASMR reading of Goodnight Moon to put you to sleep, you'll have to stay tuned. Because, honestly, with all the stress of the college admission process, I actually think that episode has a lot of promise. Anywho, in a way, coming back to co host this podcast is a little bit of a full circle moment for me, because it was actually by doing a podcast with Ethan back when I worked at Pomona College that we first connected. Shameless plug for Episode 302, and 303, yeah, I didn't stop talking. So they made it into two episodes, which is just very on brand. And now Ethan and I work together full time trying to bring more ease, purpose and joy to the college admission process one YouTube video, podcast episode and Barbie meme at a time. Check out our Instagram for more. But prior to working full time at College, Essay, Guy, I worked for two years in admissions at my alma mater, College of the Holy Cross go satyrs chased after the sunshine to work at Pomona College in Southern California for roughly four years and momentarily embraced the rain while working as a college counselor at a selective Independent School in Seattle. So during that time, read 1000s of different applications, worked with many different students coming from lots of different high schools, and really try to bring that perspective and insight into the selective admissions world to our audience. Right On today's episode, I was honored to be joined by my wonderful colleague and friend, Susan tree, our senior college counselor here at CEG, as we call it, where we unpack all things related to high school courses, how they influence a student's admission process and what students and families should keep in mind, especially if they're in ninth and 10th grade, around choosing classes, Susan has spent 40 years working with young people and their families on both sides of the desk, as we call it, on all aspects of the college admission process. She started off her admission career at Bates College, where she helped pioneer the test optional movement well before the turning the tide in 2020 but for over 20 years after that, Susan served as the Director of College Counseling at a college prep day in boarding school near Philadelphia, where she worked with students from all over the world these days, in addition to providing individualized college counseling to students and families through CEG, yes, we do a lot more than just essay support. Susan continues to read applications at selective liberal arts colleges and universities, to quote, unquote, keep a finger on the pulse of what common themes, trends and challenges are facing today's applicants. So she brings a whole wealth of knowledge, whole wealth of experience, and a lot more insight into Star Wars than I was able to keep up with. So those parts of the podcast ended up getting cut now the TLDR, or the too long didn't read, as the kids call it, theme of this episode is this to be competitive at selective colleges and universities, students should take the equivalent of four years of what we call the five academic solids, or the five core subjects that are offered in most high schools, English, math, social studies, science and a language course beyond English, and not just taking these subjects, but also embracing a healthy challenge of advanced coursework, whether Those are advanced placement courses, International Baccalaureate courses, or something more school specific. But we also know from experience that this is an oversimplified piece of advice that doesn't take into account the everyday reality of moving through high school right caps or limits around advanced coursework at your school, personal challenges you may have been going through scheduling conflicts, a slam dunk teacher who have to be on maternity leave so a sub comes in and doesn't know the material as well as the students, and they all students, and they all take the class. The list goes on and on, right? So in this episode, we're going to dig into some of the more frequently asked questions we get around academics and how they're factored into the college admission conversation. So things like, how much do admissions officers really know about my high school? What's the school profile, and how does that communicate the academic choices I had available to me at my school. How much do I need to explain about my academic journey in high school beyond my transcript, and how and where would I do that? What about AP and IB courses? Does it matter which ones I take, or do I just have to take any advanced classes to be competitive? What if my school doesn't have those courses? The list goes on. You'll leave with a much better sense of what admissions officers are asking themselves when they're reviewing your high school transcript and course choices and some practical tips on what you can do to a, take courses that allow you to have the most college options as possible, and B, advocate for yourself beyond just sending in your transcript through the application process. And while this episode is more anchored around your high school courses, your transcript and the admission officer perspective. Stay tuned for part two in a few weeks, where we'll talk more about the term intellectual curiosity, what that means beyond just having A's and challenging courses where admissions officers look for it, and how it can bring your college application to a whole new level. We hope you enjoy. You. Susan tree, senior college counselor at college essay guys, Susan, how are you doing this beautiful Wednesday morning in wherever you're tuning in from? I know where you are, but the audience may not, I know, and our
Susan Tree 5:12
audience is all over the place. Tom, that's it's very exciting to think that we're, we're speaking to, you know, students, we're speaking to parents, we're speaking to college counselors, school counselors, and it's just such a pleasure to be here with you and unpack what I think is an extremely important subject, because it is a tremendous influence in the college admission process. But even more than that, it's a tremendous influence in the growing up of a generation of young people who have a lot of choices as they go into high school, into and through high school, and a lot of competing priorities as they think about who they are, what they love to study, what are the foundations that they need to be building, laying down in high school in order to be not only a strong college applicant, but well prepared for the challenges of a college education, whatever that looks like for you, I think we can instill in kids, especially by 10th grade, that the academic choices they're making in terms of their path are what are going to keep the Doors open that so many high schools now, Tom specialized to such a fairly well. I'm just amazed. I, you know, I read applications this year at my university from kids who were in Marine Science High Schools on the coast of New Jersey. I
Tom Campbell 6:35
was just about to say New Jersey, because I knew, yeah, it's that school. Oh, it's, it's
Susan Tree 6:39
astounding how specialized schools can become. And I sometimes worry about kids coming rising from eighth grade, or rising from ninth grade that are going into highly specialized curriculum. And great I'm really happy that there are a lot of options out there, but kids that age are such a work in progress. And in my mind, high school should be the full liberal arts experience, especially now that we know specialization at the college level has become so much more intense in the United States, as opposed to, you know, what it was decades ago. It's we've become almost more like more like Europe in some ways. In we go into college thinking we know exactly what we're going to do, and it's going to be a professional degree, whether we're going for, you know, a BFA or a nursing degree or an engineering degree, even our computer scientists and our aerospace engineers need to understand how people think and how they reason, and look at what's happened with artificial intelligence. Just in a year, the people who are leading us forward into this new era of generative AI are people with broad literary critical thinking skills. They understand how people think across all the disciplines. So, so important for us not to get kids in high school into a silo, and you know to say to that rise in junior Who's stopping the foreign language or the social science to save let's figure out how, and you can have your cake. You need it too, and keep those academic solids on your plate right up until the bitter end. Because as your mind matures, so will the range of your interests
Tom Campbell 8:22
Absolutely, yeah. And I think if you plan your high school experience with this advice in mind, the doors that are open and available to you are so much more there. And in fact, I was actually just talking with a friend of mine who she knew early on in high school that she really wanted to go into fashion related courses and college Fashion Merchandising, and she kind of mapped out. And she was like, hey, you know, I saw my graduation requirements from my high school in Maine, and I didn't need to take, you know, more than two years of the science courses, which I really didn't enjoy, and they're not related to what I want to do. So I just did the graduation requirements and looked at programs that only needed those years. And then she said, but on the flip side, there were certain schools that I stumbled upon, and there was actually a school that I was really, really interested in, that I applied to, Marist College, yeah, that had a program that I was really excited about, and also just an amazing location and great school, but because I didn't have really the courses that they even were asking for on their required, for their requirements. I was really kind of not competitive right from the beginning. Wow. All that to say, I think it's great to as a high school student, kind of know what you want to do. And if you're in that position, and you're like, I've known since I was three years old that I want to be an astronaut, right? You can map out your courses accordingly. But I think the reason why I think that speaking from the lens of more selective schools and the courses that generally they prefer, is helpful to anyone who's tuning in, no matter if that's your path or not, is yours, will be more available and open to you, if you kind of keep these pieces of advice in mind throughout high school. And I would argue too, that because these colleges are valuing these core academic courses. There's a lot to be gained from taking them in terms of your own growth and development, absolutely, your critical thinking skills, your ability to craft an argument and present that through your history and your English classes, and to be analytical and dig through data through your science courses, right? So you have a lot to gain from these courses that we're about to mention, but we know that you're all individuals as well. So
Susan Tree 10:21
yeah, and I would dare say that the student who grows up wanting to be a fashion designer ought to know a lot about science and ought to know a far another foreign language, and ought to know a lot about History and Sociology. So many students want to know, what do I have to take in my high school curriculum to get in. Well, what colleges resort to, usually, is saying we expect you have to have taken the basics, like across the five academic disciplines we expect you to have taken, you know, obviously whatever your high school requires you to take for graduation. Beyond that, though, are the recommendations, and if you look at the common data set in the C section and friends, if you don't know what the common data set is, is, it's just simply a standardized form on most, I would say 95% of the colleges and universities publish it on their website in this standardized form, but it's not in the admissions part of the website. It's usually in institutional research. Yeah, you go to the C section, what they'll do in the C section is give you a chart of required high school coursework and recommended high school coursework. The college's own website will often give this to you as well, but with an explanation. So use the common data set for maybe a quick look, but then definitely go to the college's website. Look for academic requirements, and you'll get a little bit more of a description. Because remember, if you're applying to a university that is evaluating you for engineering or for business or for potentially the liberal arts, for nursing, for Applied Science, you should look a little deeper, because you know, three years of math is probably not going to cut it for those STEM fields, including nursing right and two years of foreign language is not going to cut it for communications and journalism or international relations. So be careful about what you kind of take at face value, but know that the more competitive the university, the more coursework and the higher level of coursework they are going to look for on that high school transfer, particularly the alignment with what you've taken in high school And what you then are expressing as your area of academic interest, or in some cases, when you're applying directly to a major, but even the required and recommended number of courses at the very selective colleges, you will have applicants who go way beyond. They will have six years. You know, they'll be in not always, but if they're looking at a STEM field and they took their second year of calculus in 10th or 11th grade, I kid you not, then you can't. You have to find out a way to take multi variable calculus or linear algebra or number theory, and if your school doesn't offer it, because a lot don't. Then you check out the local community college, you check out what you can do online. You check out Coursera, yep, MIT, MOOCs, yep, massive online, free classes. There are ways, you know, no matter where you go to high school, where you can create opportunities for yourself to keep moving forward. Your high school doesn't offer a poetry class. Someone does you know? Your guidance counselor doesn't have any great ideas. Does your English teacher have some ideas? There are ways you see Scout, Yale open courseware, but it can show, wow, there wasn't a way to do this, but I found a way to make it happen, even if I'm not getting credit for it. You know, maybe it'll never be on a transcript. Maybe it will, but how wonderful to show that level of of interest.
Tom Campbell 14:37
Yeah, and like, self directedness, I talk about that a lot in the highly selective courses, is how valuable that can be to see and have that be demonstrated somewhere in a student's file. And I love that you said like, I'm not getting credit for this because there's right, there's like, such that link in association with like, well, if it's not creditable, it's not worthwhile, or it's not worth including. And something. Else that you you touched on just now is kind of the variance of, for example, if you're interested in certain selective STEM programs, and you go to a competitive High School where a lot of kids are also looking at those programs in schools, and there are a lot of courses available, I think it really kind of starts to introduce the part of the podcast, which is about school context, and, you know, a lot of times, a big question that I'll get from students and families is, but what about my school? Like, just people on admissions really know how hard it is? Or do you know that? You know, my 4.0 at, you know, Lakeshore drive Academy is way harder than Roscoe Village School, those 4.5 these are just the neighborhoods near me in Chicago where I'm staying. Every corner is a source of inspiration. But, yeah, it really is. I think an understandable question is like, how do people in admissions like, how are they gonna judge me or compare me to other people who are also applying, both from my school and around that, I think for families, if you're curious about the way that your high school is viewed by Admissions offices, the very first thing that I would say that you should do is look up the school profile from your high school. Oftentimes, I've actually found out that people, surprisingly, are not aware that this exists. These documents are typically available, you know, to students and families and the public in general, right? So a admissions officer who maybe is looking for more information, might look up some of those data points on a school's website, and usually what it includes is information just about the courses that are available in the high school. So what type of curriculum is there? Is it advanced placement, AP, curriculum, IB, International Baccalaureate diploma? Is it the school's own unique advanced or Accelerated pathway that they may have, that they've designed themselves, which is great, you know, it's it's great when you're at a school where the teachers have influenced the curriculum, and maybe it deviates a little bit from some of these more standardized curriculum sets that are out there, no matter kind of what is out there, that the point or the real goal of the admissions officer is not to judge what your school is offering you. It's not to make value judgments on you that, Oh, you went to a school that has an AB curriculum, so you might be this type of kid that is not a part of the conversation. What they really want to know is, I am tasked. It's my job, you know, as an admissions officer, to evaluate students from this high school. I need to know that I'm presenting this file, what was available for them, and what did they leave on the table? And that's a big question that people in selective admissions offices are going to be asking themselves, related to your academic record right there also might include information around what percent of students go on to four year colleges. Often, that's used as a really, a really critical data point for admissions officers and getting a sense for for example, a student who is going from a school where 99% or 100% of students are going on to four year colleges, they may be more comfortable admitting a student who has a few more a minuses, maybe a few more b's a little, you know, quote, unquote, softness academically. Then say a student who is going to a school where only 20% of students go on to for your colleges, there's a little more of a pressure on students there to or a little bit of weariness around admitting students who are not quite at that top, top level at that type of high school, only because there will be concerns about the student's ability to be successful on the college level at that selective, rigorous college, right? So all that information is going to vary from high school to high school, but it is all valuable and helpful to people in admissions, in making those decisions. So my advice for students and families is usually first to be aware of what's being sent out there. Yeah, absolutely just and you know as a parent or guardian, if you you know, have any follow up questions or are curious about why maybe certain pieces of information are included and not others. This is not saying that everyone should be spamming the inboxes of their school counseling offices for my new distinctions, but if you do have any genuine concerns or like, hey, my students taking this class in this particular special program, you know, at the high school, and I'm not seeing a paragraph or a section explaining what that is, that might be something that I imagine people in admissions would really want to know. It's definitely worthwhile to, you know, advocate for your child and to make sure that the high school experience that your child has had is being reflected somewhere, or there's information about what pathway they were able to take on that particular document. Right? Every
Susan Tree 19:18
family needs to sit down with a copy of the school profile and their students, their child's transcript, just as if they were an admissions officer looking at that transcript and trying to understand what was available to the student and what had the student taken advantage of. I met with a junior a week or two ago, Massachusetts, who high end mathematician, and I was curious to know what he had was planning for classes for his senior year. I looked at the school profile, which I found on the website of the high school, and I saw, Oh, here are the courses that are available to him. So. So when I talked with him and asked what he was taking, I said, Well, what are you taking for math next year? And he said, Well, I'd maxed out the curriculum, and I'm not sure really what to do. And I said, Well, on the profile, it says that your school offers whatever it was the second year of calculus or something. He goes, Oh, that hasn't been offered for years. And I thought, well, that was a classic example, right? Of a weirdness that would have been been noticed by the college, and while they they wouldn't have known how to interpret that then, you know, or the case of the student, where they couldn't take Mandarin three because the program had been eliminated, but it was still on the trip, on the profile. So I said to the student, I said, Okay, here's what you need to ask your counselor, is, is this profile going to be different next year to show and he said, Well, maybe sometimes it's like an every other year class. And I said, Well, find out who's explaining that you know when you when you apply, find out what the counselor is going to be saying, what the profile is going to be saying, what the counselor may be saying, and in this school report form, and you may need to take responsibility for explaining this. You know, the common application gives you an additional information section, and you can It's a wild card section. You can use it to add information, add context, explain weird things. So I you know that's that's really important to a lot of high schools, and this of now are speaking from the standpoint of an application reader. A lot of high schools, when you read transcripts, it's combat and it's almost like there's this minefield of information and lack of information that, as an admissions reader, you have to work your way through in order to get a fair assessment of the student. Some of this are states in this fine nation of ours that had never figured out how to present High School credentials in the college admission process Florida,
Tom Campbell 22:07
if you're listening, yeah, a lot of you have a lot of critiques from admissions officers with you, the way the transcripts are printed out.
Susan Tree 22:15
Oh, mg, yeah, it's
Tom Campbell 22:19
the labyrinths for sure, and
Susan Tree 22:21
again, I think if a parent requests the transcript exactly, not report cards, but a copy of the transcript as it will be shared with the colleges. And a lot of kids and parents don't realize that those are two different things, right? That the report cards you get at home are not what go to the colleges. The high school transcript is a different document, right? So your report card may show grades for every quarter. It may show absences, tardies and other extraneous information that that probably aren't going to be shared with the colleges, right? And the transcript may only show end of year grades, or it may show just semester grades, yeah. And then
Tom Campbell 23:03
I think that can be so for some students, it can actually be very liberating, in a way, actually, to see like, Oh, gee, it's just a semester course. Gee, that time that I got that b minus in Calc first quarter, but then I brought it up back to, you know, an A minus second quarter, all they're seeing is that b plus or so, right? Like sometimes, I don't think students and families know that until it's kind of they've spent so much time and years of high school, sometimes even fretting about each individual report card and grade report. And I think the sooner you can realize what colleges have access to and what your school is sending in on your behalf, I think that can actually help to be strategic as a high school student. And know, hey, if I had a dip, you know, this quarter, I know that maybe next quarter, if I'm looking at these types of schools, that getting it up to a certain point is really going to be my goal in terms of having a grade that I feel will keep me in the running at some of these colleges that I'm interested in. And it can really kind of take away that kind of and it's something that I noticed working at a noticed working at a high school. And I think back to my own self, and I like pinch myself for being like, why were you so hyper fixated on each individual assignment? But I, you know, working at a high school, I remember, like, you could tell the ninth grade tables oftentimes, because all they were doing was talking about quizzes and grades and this and that. And, you know, I was at a, I was at a high school where, you know, it was a very high achieving population, and you had to apply to attend the school, and you were a star in your middle school, perhaps, right? And I think that's kind of, you know, sometimes, if you're, if you're a student who's listening, and you, and you do attend a school like that, sometimes it's all you know, and it's all you've kind of been known because one of the biggest things that you've been known for is kind of that star academician, that star academic student, and to be in an environment where there are a lot of other stars you know from their previous school can be, I mean, it's the same it's the same thing at college, there's a lot of talk about imposter syndrome. And, yeah, no, that's again podcast for another day. But all that to say. Yeah, I do think being aware of what's being communicated, you know, and how it's being communicated about your academic experience is a really crucial question to be thinking about sooner than later, not so that you can be so, so stressed out and have it be like the laser focused goal of like, I need to make sure it looks a certain way when it's being submitted, because life is not often that predictable, right? Pandemic, right? There are things that come around that none of us could have predicted, but I do think that awareness can actually be a blessing rather than a hindrance, because it oftentimes puts into perspective how that localized view of your high school experience is not the admissions officers reality. That's right, they do not know that that week March of 2023 you have bombed this midterm because so and so, you know, was stranded at the parking lot. You had to pick her up and you weren't able to study. They will never know about that particular, you know, Smidge instance in your existence, and the existence of the entire human history. And I think, kind of just knowing that you don't have basically like all eyes on you at every single second of your life can be abreast at ease moments. You know, since we're all about ease, purpose and joy at college essay, that's right, and
Susan Tree 26:18
and it eliminates some of the fear of the unknown when you kind of know how things so I think an important thing is, when you look at your own transcript, say, at the end of your junior year, you can say to yourself, Okay, I can understand now that you know, when I had motto in 10th grade, it doesn't show that what I was worried about isn't showing up, or it is, or the fact that my teacher left in the middle of the semester on maternity leave, and we didn't actually have a teacher for a period of time. And it helps to be able to talk to your guidance counselor or your school counselor, whoever's going to be writing your letter on behalf of the school, and say, Who's explaining this? Is this something you know? It seems like it's more something the school should explain. Now, if there's been a change in counselor, someone needs to know what you think would be helpful for them to include in the as they represent your record. You know what? What students often don't realize is that when a a college sits down and is evaluating their application, and they're looking at the transcript. They're really looking at a historical document that has a lot of context to it. So they're looking at grades nine through at least through the end of 11th grade, and possibly part way through 12th grade, depending on the time of the year. And they're looking at a student with particular academic interests and particular strengths. So the question of AP or this class or that class is not looked at in a vacuum. It's looked at as part of kind of a historical journey that a student has taken through their their high school experience, the context in which that is read, is what is available at the school, and how they manage the curriculum and the curriculum choices that kids have to make from year to year. Some high schools, if you'd all join the pre AP program, which could be in middle school, actually seventh or eighth grade, but at least in ninth grade, you don't get to be in the AP track. It's viewed as a track as opposed to options for different classes. A lot of high schools offer some APS if they offer any at all, and there are plenty of high schools in the country that do not use the AP curriculum. Some high schools believe that offering, like all, I think it's 36 AP subjects, you can fact check that for me Tom, some are semester in length. Some are year long classes. They equate the number of APS with the prestige of their high school, and they view it as a selling point. Real estate agents use it as a selling point. They believe colleges are really impressed by this. And truthfully, colleges don't judge high schools that way. They really don't. They. They don't look at standard measures like that. They'll look and see what the nature of the curriculum is that's being offered, and then they'll look at you as an applicant and say, Well, what, what did this student take advantage of? So there's a lot of work that the colleges have to do. They have to slow down study what the high school is all about, and really work at unpacking the students transcript. But students need to help. They need to to make sure the school is representing them well, and also they have to tell their own story as to their learning style. What is the the academic platform? On which their high school curriculum has been built, and why does it represent for them an excellent preparation for whatever it is they are hoping to study in college, right?
Tom Campbell 30:11
Yeah. I mean, I think schools make decisions based on what's best for their communities, and I think so frequently I've worked with students and families who have been really concerned about the perception of the courses at their school. I think that's kind of where collaboration between students families and the counselor in the high school, like, if you are encountering and as especially if you have the chance, which it can be difficult, you know, to be able to have, you know, especially increasingly so maybe phone calls or communications via email with individual admissions officers, but just getting a sense for kind of how they are viewing different parts of your curriculum. Because, yeah, I've been to many schools where there is a disconnect between the applicants that were being sent to me and how many advanced placement classes that were there and what the students took, and it seemed surprisingly light, especially because there'd be one or two kids who did have that higher number of advanced placement courses that I was saying, Okay, well, if there are a small handful of kids doing this, obviously it's you're able to do it. There's not curriculum limits that are being mentioned in the school program, right? I would, I would take the time to to get to learn that. But I do think making sure that your school profile is as clear and and captures the reality of like, what these courses actually mean, what they do, what they have capacity for, the level of them, is something that, however you can can communicate that message. So this is definitely a tip for counselors here, and definitely investing time in a easy to read school profile that really breaks down the levels essentially, of these classes, great. And, you know, I understand that there's lots of nuance between individual teachers that offer it. And of course, like in a given year, sometimes there might be a teacher who's on paternity or maternity leave or isn't, is the only person who was teaching the class so it wasn't offered that year. You know, making sure, I've seen schools, for example, put like, red bolded text on the top of a school profile in a certain year that it's being sent out to be like, hey, critical updates for the 2023, application cycle, like, this class is not being offered for XYZ reasons. You know, those extenuating circumstances are definitely it's it's great when students can mention that in their own words, but kind of having there be something that's written in a profile that way, all your students can benefit from it, right in the case that they don't, with that little blurb in their Additional Information section and their common application, at least it's there for an admissions officer to see And notice clearly based on those, just like those visual distinctive features, whether it's highlighted bolded red, you know, ink, whatever it may be, just any of those kind of particularities mentioning those And absolutely, yeah. And I think you know when it comes to if you are a high school student who does have an AP curriculum available to you, I do think being aware that colleges will be looking at the number of classes that your school says that they offer, and if there are certain barriers, like, what, what Susan had just mentioned around, you know, you have to be tracked for certain classes. You know, there may have been things that happen when a lot of students may, for example, like transfer high schools, and maybe sometimes that might impact their ability to track into certain advanced classes in that new school, right? Really just making sure that the admissions officer is not going to know that full back story if you do not communicate it or mention to your counselor, hey, this is something that I really want to make sure colleges know about my experience related to having access to this. So I just think that more information when it comes to essentially any of these, kind of like, Oh, I wonder why they didn't take insert course, if there's a reason as to why, including that in your rationale and in your application somewhere, it doesn't have to be everywhere, but somewhere is definitely, I'd say, a great rule of thumb, absolutely. And then in terms of, you know, just getting really pragmatic with the AP curriculum and just recommending specific courses, I mean, is going to be those core solid academic areas, right sciences, right physics, biology, chemistry, at many selected schools, there will be an expectation that you take in those courses and what level they are at depends on what your school offers. But if you are in a school that has AP, all three of those classes, and you're wondering, hey, you know, will I still be competitive at? Insert a highly rejected school. Let's use, you know, use Chicago right now, just for the sake of variety, right? If I take AP Environmental Science instead of chemistry, for example, like, will that impact my chances? And the answer, to be very frank, is yes, right? That's a school where the level of selectivity for students is going to allow them to choose the students who have taken the most challenging classes in those core, solid academic areas, even if I. Students not necessarily like doesn't necessarily identify as a stem student, right on pursuing a STEM major, right? So I think you know, in kind of asking, how will colleges view XYZ courses in general, the fact that you're taking advanced placement classes at all is showing a level of investment in your education beyond, yes, absolutely, which is great, and that's something that colleges across the spectrum, regardless of their selectivity, will recognize that and factor that into their assessment. I do think kind of like one of my biggest insights that I kind of learned from my own experience, like applying to college and thinking about what was available at Cathedral High School in Springfield Mass and then working at admissions at Holy Cross and Pomona, I, for example, opted for a class in my high school had advanced placement physics, chemistry and biology and science was never really necessarily my huge forte, and I didn't really want to pursue that in college. It wasn't my my goal, but I knew I wanted to take advanced sciences, you know, because I wanted to be competitive for more selective schools. And in my eyes and work and in talking with my counselor, I was kind of under the impression that taking honors biology two, I had already taken Honors Biology one, the ninth grader and honors biology two was a super cool, very unique class offered by my high school was an aquaculture class. Wow, super unusual, right? So we actually, like, had a fish tank in the classroom. We grew the fish. We learned all about kind of the processes behind running a fish farm, the biology behind fish. Every lesson was like, so, so niche and interesting, and you learned a lot out of it was very it was a lot more project based than the original honors biology, one which was very traditional introductory, advanced science class for students just starting out in high school, right? But the teacher taught this like it was so clear, Mr. Broder. Shout out to Mr. Broder. He really invested in putting this class together that was so unique. There's so many great takeaways from it, of course. You know, I just turned 31 this past week, and I can't exactly tell you all the intricacies of the fish biological reality, but we did actually end up eating the fish in the end. We cooked them in school cafeteria. They were catfish. So we had a nice little Cajun celebratory, which people are like, that kind of morbid you like, grew these fish in class and then ended up eating them in the end. And I'm like, Hey, Circle of Life, that's what biology is all about, right? So anyways, from this, you know, little this little swimming up course, from what we're talking about, I thought because this class was so unique and cool and so hands on, that colleges would really easily understand that and recognize, you know, this cool academic path that I had chosen to take. But what I neglected to realize was that the way that the course was not necessarily given as much air time as I thought admissions officers had the time or energy or ability to dive into another
Susan Tree 37:55
another bad pun, not
Tom Campbell 37:56
intentionally. Yes, very bad. But that's actually kind of like that just rolled right off the tongue, but I didn't realize that, honestly, I probably would have been more competitive at a wider range of schools because my school offered AP biology. I had a lot of classmates who took it the opera culture class, to me, was more interesting for all the reasons I mentioned, but I didn't put the pieces together that someone on the other end, all these admissions officers who you know, are reading for lots of different high schools in a region, they're being given information provided by the high school about what these classes are, and they're given certain levels of rigor. Honors is listed below AP in terms of, you know, the level, right, hierarchy, right? And hierarchy, right? So I think that that is just something to be aware of, that unless there is some explicit mentioning of these levels, and there is going to be in terms of making this workflow efficient and kind of to make it digestible for admissions officers to get to know every high school. It really is the way that that information is presented. That is the way they're going to be making these decisions. So if I was to, like, turn back the clock, you know, I probably would have disclosed a little more information about taking this aquaculture class and why I chose it. And I feel like if an admissions reader saw that small kind of explanation in my additional info section, that inevitable question that they may have been, that they may have received from a colleague? Well, why didn't he take AP Bio? It's available at the high school. That admissions officer would have had a rationale from me
Susan Tree 39:28
to defend your defender, and
Tom Campbell 39:32
especially for grounding it in you were curious about the class. You thought it looked really neat, then this is what you got out of it. Who is to say how much that short explanation will tip the needle in terms of someone really understanding the scope of what you have taken a part of. But it's worth it to invest in actually doing it than not, because you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by mentioning your intentional decisions behind your course. Absolutely. So I think that's like a really big. Takeaway, regardless of if you're in an AP school, IB school, whatnot. Yes, you probably are wondering, Is someone going to see AP environmental science with the same way as AP Chemistry? The rule of thumb is probably not, right. It doesn't mean you shouldn't take AP environmental science. It's a great class, especially right now. It's so timely, so many students are interested in how we can better address climate change. It's a great way to be able to learn the foundations of what's happening to the planet and what's what has happened over 1000s and 1000s of years of evolution. Right? So taking the class has a lot of benefits for it, beyond just being competitive for colleges and yes, because it is an advanced placement class that still will be seen as an elevate the level of investment beyond the standard classes your school offers. But it's just kind of understanding, again, that the default of the core solid academic courses, there's going to be areas where that's not as so does weighty, not as defined, right? So the history and social studies offerings for advanced placement classes are not going to necessarily be like, oh, you should definitely take AP world instead of AP US, because it's more expansive. Sure that is true, because world, you know, world history, is going to cover more options. But in admissions, it's not going to be seen, for example, as a decision between an environmental science class, which is not considered a core solid science classes. There's a little more nuance, I'd say, with some of the other subjects I grade studies with. You know, for example, language, no one in additions is gonna be like, well, the school offered Mandarin, they offered Japanese, they offered German, they offered Spanish, and the student took Spanish. They could have taken something more creative. That's not a real scenario that happens, right? So it can be hard to kind of like understand how someone on the other end is going to evaluate those decisions. But in general, I would say, if your school offers both AP Language and AP Literature, I would recommend taking both of those, right if you want to be competitive for selective colleges, even if you are not, if you're like, Oh, I'm a stem kid, right? I'm not as interested in English. If your school offers those two classes, and you want to be competitive for schools with you know, I'd say less than, like, a 30% acceptance rate. That's a very generalized recommendation, but generally, they're going to see those two classes offered and wonder why you didn't take insert class, right?
Susan Tree 42:21
Interestingly, you know, more and more schools in the US, especially, pretty high end schools, mostly private, some public have laid down the Advanced Placement curriculum in their school. This was a tidal wave on the east coast, from Washington, DC to New York that independent schools, within a period of a couple of years, brought forward what is now known as the independent curriculum, and independent curriculum that is designed by the faculty so students can go farther in their academic disciplines, beyond AP. And those were kids who, in some cases, were being changed by the AP curriculum, right? And if their parents were paying to send them to an independent school, it just wasn't, it wasn't right. So DC, Philadelphia, New York, suddenly, there are a lot of independent schools that have independent curriculum and the high schools, including the one that I worked at for many years, have have now have enough history to know that, if anything, their students were advantaged in the college admission process, as opposed to disadvantage, which was an original an original thought, but it takes A little studying on the part of the admissions reader to look at the profile and make sure they see what the school offers and what the students are taking who are at the very top of the rigor ladder, so to speak, because that often carries the Day in an application evaluation at a very competitive universe. Yeah, and IB Tom, you know, as a reader, when I read an IB student, I first look to see if they're a diploma candidate, because they are an old diploma candidates, right? Some students are taking a hybrid model of AP and IB, and you just want to as a reader of that application, you want to see, well, what does that mean? Why aren't they an IB deploy the candidates this hybrid model, give them access to a broader, you know, range of courses, more, more rigor, perhaps. Yeah, that was appropriate. So there's not an automatic judgment, but you do as an evaluator, have to figure that out, right? And if, if a student is a diploma candidate, then you need to look at what the higher levels are. There are three of those, once in a blue moon four, but you never expect to see more, right? It's kind of breaking a lot of rules for a student. To take four higher levels, but those higher levels are a two year sequence, right? And then in the fall, at the end of junior year, there will be predicted IB scores, which can make a big splash at highly selective you know, if someone's crossing that 40 barrier, that 40 threshold, that's something that the the most selected colleges in the US will immediately notice, that's top of scale, and then they will get in. Is it October of senior year or the equivalent of senior year will get IB scores. And now my timing may be off a little bit. There some schools, you know, pandemic interrupted so much there, but the choice of your higher levels is an interesting one, because IB curriculum has diversified a fair amount in the last years. And you know, you can do higher level now in business and film, in in areas that were not considered necessarily to be the courses of highest rigor, but they're being taught at the higher level, and the students getting an IB diploma, more power to them. This, just like with AP, the students should be taking advantage of the most rigor that they can get in the areas they're most interested in and most likely to be saying they're going to be studying, yeah. So, you know, if you're thinking about studying physics or engineering, you should be looking for the highest level of rigor in, you know, in math and science, right?
Tom Campbell 46:36
Know that. It's funny. I used to joke that, like, when I saw an IB school and it was a diploma candidate, I would be like, Oh, this is an easy one, because you don't have to, like really much looking and comparing to, okay, what which level math did a student take of junior year? Or, you know, what was available from, you know, based on the AP load at the school, because there's a lot more variance right of AP distributions depending on the individual High School and what teaching staff that they have available to teach those courses. I think that you know, for students who are coming from an ID school, I think do know that people in admissions really see the value of that curriculum. There's a lot of, I think, great skills that you're developing that really translate easily to college, especially with your theory of knowledge course with your as an essay. And actually, I highly encourage IB students to even mention briefly in their Additional Information section what that project was you spent so much time working on it, and it is a small snapshot of the journey you're about to embark on on the college level with in depth research and really kind of driving a project forward, and having it be driven by your own curiosity and interest. So I definitely think that if you're at an IB school, that's great. And I think one thing I always you know, with any of these kind of like points of if when I like, shout out certain schools or certain curriculum, I always think about the kid who's listening, who's like, but I don't go to that school, does that mean that I'm lesser or I'm not going to be seen as as college ready? And I I always catch myself in those moments to kind of put it out that disclaimer that like any time where I'm highlighting or propping up a certain course option, it's not me saying this is the ranking or one Tom Campbell, who's one admissions officer out of many of all the different types of rigor that's available. It's not my job again to like judge, or it's not my job to be like everyone should be transferring to this type of school because it's the easiest to read on a transcript, and you gain a lot of great skills, right? So I think if you're a student who's listening and you know any of the pieces of advice that we're giving or situations that we're putting out their types of schools. Really do know that that person who's on the other end is not there to judge your high school there? That's not they're not evaluating your school. They're evaluating you, you know, and they're evaluating what you're able to contribute to their community. And for everyone, no matter what your educational background is, has something to contribute to these college campuses. It doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be admitted to all of your top choices, or even, you know, some of the schools that you as you go through this college journey, you may be surprised that you're like, Oh, I thought that that was a target. And then maybe you'll learn from your college counselor that maybe it's more of a reach. It's not to say that, yeah, there's no, there's no value judgments that are coming along with your school. People in admissions have seen it all right? We've talked about schools that we have seen that have narrative evaluations and ones that have trimesters and semester we're really big at college as a guy about controlling what you can control, right? And we hope that the information that we're providing around different course options of options of rigor and advanced courses are helpful context for you to know kind of like what's out there and how situational and it will be for someone in admissions to evaluate you, and you know how it will be a completely different lens than when they're evaluating even the students from the school down the street from you. So hopefully that provides a little more relief than stress, because, yeah. There's hundreds of different, 1000s of different ways to, quote, unquote, do school, right? And though all those students are a part of these college communities, because, as you mentioned, Susan, right, everyone's bringing something different. Everyone's bringing a different perspective. They bet in different learning, learning environments, and that's going to influence what they contribute to discussions and work on the college level research, you know, groups and labs. There's so many studies that kind of have demonstrated how that variety allows problem solving to be so much more accurate and dynamic and also effective. That's right, ever many students listening, you may be actually, this might be the first time that you actually are going to an environment where there is more variety than what you're used to. That's, I think, a huge benefit to attending a US college, and a huge benefit towards going down that path excellent light. And there you have it. Lots of tea spilled around how colleges view your academic record and what choices you can make to make yourself more competitive. Hopefully, if you're a younger student or family, you have lots of time to implement our advice. But if you're coming to us as a senior and you don't have a time machine to turn back your courses and grades, stay tuned for our second episode all about intellectual curiosity and how you can share that with colleges through your application. No transcript needed. All right. Cheers to you all. Much love. And as always, stay curious. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show transcript
Tom Campbell 0:07 Tom, welcome back to the College Essay Guy podcast. My name is Tom Campbell, and I'm college essay guy's community manager and a new co host of the podcast. I like to joke that I'm not the College Essay Guy, but I am a College Essay Guy. Insert Dos Equis man meme probably something that only the millennials tuning in. May remember, if you tuned in because you wanted Ethan to do a soothing, tranquil ASMR reading of Goodnight Moon to put you to sleep, you'll have to stay tuned. Because, honestly, with all the stress of the college admission process, I actually think that episode has a lot of promise. Anywho, in a way, coming back to co host this podcast is a little bit of a full circle moment for me, because it was actually by doing a podcast with Ethan back when I worked at Pomona College that we first connected. Shameless plug for Episode 302, and 303, yeah, I didn't stop talking. So they made it into two episodes, which is just very on brand. And now Ethan and I work together full time trying to bring more ease, purpose and joy to the college admission process one YouTube video, podcast episode and Barbie meme at a time. Check out our Instagram for more. But prior to working full time at College, Essay, Guy, I worked for two years in admissions at my alma mater, College of the Holy Cross go satyrs chased after the sunshine to work at Pomona College in Southern California for roughly four years and momentarily embraced the rain while working as a college counselor at a selective Independent School in Seattle. So during that time, read 1000s of different applications, worked with many different students coming from lots of different high schools, and really try to bring that perspective and insight into the selective admissions world to our audience. Right On today's episode, I was honored to be joined by my wonderful colleague and friend, Susan tree, our senior college counselor here at CEG, as we call it, where we unpack all things related to high school courses, how they influence a student's admission process and what students and families should keep in mind, especially if they're in ninth and 10th grade, around choosing classes, Susan has spent 40 years working with young people and their families on both sides of the desk, as we call it, on all aspects of the college admission process. She started off her admission career at Bates College, where she helped pioneer the test optional movement well before the turning the tide in 2020 but for over 20 years after that, Susan served as the Director of College Counseling at a college prep day in boarding school near Philadelphia, where she worked with students from all over the world these days, in addition to providing individualized college counseling to students and families through CEG, yes, we do a lot more than just essay support. Susan continues to read applications at selective liberal arts colleges and universities, to quote, unquote, keep a finger on the pulse of what common themes, trends and challenges are facing today's applicants. So she brings a whole wealth of knowledge, whole wealth of experience, and a lot more insight into Star Wars than I was able to keep up with. So those parts of the podcast ended up getting cut now the TLDR, or the too long didn't read, as the kids call it, theme of this episode is this to be competitive at selective colleges and universities, students should take the equivalent of four years of what we call the five academic solids, or the five core subjects that are offered in most high schools, English, math, social studies, science and a language course beyond English, and not just taking these subjects, but also embracing a healthy challenge of advanced coursework, whether Those are advanced placement courses, International Baccalaureate courses, or something more school specific. But we also know from experience that this is an oversimplified piece of advice that doesn't take into account the everyday reality of moving through high school right caps or limits around advanced coursework at your school, personal challenges you may have been going through scheduling conflicts, a slam dunk teacher who have to be on maternity leave so a sub comes in and doesn't know the material as well as the students, and they all students, and they all take the class. The list goes on and on, right? So in this episode, we're going to dig into some of the more frequently asked questions we get around academics and how they're factored into the college admission conversation. So things like, how much do admissions officers really know about my high school? What's the school profile, and how does that communicate the academic choices I had available to me at my school. How much do I need to explain about my academic journey in high school beyond my transcript, and how and where would I do that? What about AP and IB courses? Does it matter which ones I take, or do I just have to take any advanced classes to be competitive? What if my school doesn't have those courses? The list goes on. You'll leave with a much better sense of what admissions officers are asking themselves when they're reviewing your high school transcript and course choices and some practical tips on what you can do to a, take courses that allow you to have the most college options as possible, and B, advocate for yourself beyond just sending in your transcript through the application process. And while this episode is more anchored around your high school courses, your transcript and the admission officer perspective. Stay tuned for part two in a few weeks, where we'll talk more about the term intellectual curiosity, what that means beyond just having A's and challenging courses where admissions officers look for it, and how it can bring your college application to a whole new level. We hope you enjoy. You. Susan tree, senior college counselor at college essay guys, Susan, how are you doing this beautiful Wednesday morning in wherever you're tuning in from? I know where you are, but the audience may not, I know, and our Susan Tree 5:12 audience is all over the place. Tom, that's it's very exciting to think that we're, we're speaking to, you know, students, we're speaking to parents, we're speaking to college counselors, school counselors, and it's just such a pleasure to be here with you and unpack what I think is an extremely important subject, because it is a tremendous influence in the college admission process. But even more than that, it's a tremendous influence in the growing up of a generation of young people who have a lot of choices as they go into high school, into and through high school, and a lot of competing priorities as they think about who they are, what they love to study, what are the foundations that they need to be building, laying down in high school in order to be not only a strong college applicant, but well prepared for the challenges of a college education, whatever that looks like for you, I think we can instill in kids, especially by 10th grade, that the academic choices they're making in terms of their path are what are going to keep the Doors open that so many high schools now, Tom specialized to such a fairly well. I'm just amazed. I, you know, I read applications this year at my university from kids who were in Marine Science High Schools on the coast of New Jersey. I Tom Campbell 6:35 was just about to say New Jersey, because I knew, yeah, it's that school. Oh, it's, it's Susan Tree 6:39 astounding how specialized schools can become. And I sometimes worry about kids coming rising from eighth grade, or rising from ninth grade that are going into highly specialized curriculum. And great I'm really happy that there are a lot of options out there, but kids that age are such a work in progress. And in my mind, high school should be the full liberal arts experience, especially now that we know specialization at the college level has become so much more intense in the United States, as opposed to, you know, what it was decades ago. It's we've become almost more like more like Europe in some ways. In we go into college thinking we know exactly what we're going to do, and it's going to be a professional degree, whether we're going for, you know, a BFA or a nursing degree or an engineering degree, even our computer scientists and our aerospace engineers need to understand how people think and how they reason, and look at what's happened with artificial intelligence. Just in a year, the people who are leading us forward into this new era of generative AI are people with broad literary critical thinking skills. They understand how people think across all the disciplines. So, so important for us not to get kids in high school into a silo, and you know to say to that rise in junior Who's stopping the foreign language or the social science to save let's figure out how, and you can have your cake. You need it too, and keep those academic solids on your plate right up until the bitter end. Because as your mind matures, so will the range of your interests Tom Campbell 8:22 Absolutely, yeah. And I think if you plan your high school experience with this advice in mind, the doors that are open and available to you are so much more there. And in fact, I was actually just talking with a friend of mine who she knew early on in high school that she really wanted to go into fashion related courses and college Fashion Merchandising, and she kind of mapped out. And she was like, hey, you know, I saw my graduation requirements from my high school in Maine, and I didn't need to take, you know, more than two years of the science courses, which I really didn't enjoy, and they're not related to what I want to do. So I just did the graduation requirements and looked at programs that only needed those years. And then she said, but on the flip side, there were certain schools that I stumbled upon, and there was actually a school that I was really, really interested in, that I applied to, Marist College, yeah, that had a program that I was really excited about, and also just an amazing location and great school, but because I didn't have really the courses that they even were asking for on their required, for their requirements. I was really kind of not competitive right from the beginning. Wow. All that to say, I think it's great to as a high school student, kind of know what you want to do. And if you're in that position, and you're like, I've known since I was three years old that I want to be an astronaut, right? You can map out your courses accordingly. But I think the reason why I think that speaking from the lens of more selective schools and the courses that generally they prefer, is helpful to anyone who's tuning in, no matter if that's your path or not, is yours, will be more available and open to you, if you kind of keep these pieces of advice in mind throughout high school. And I would argue too, that because these colleges are valuing these core academic courses. There's a lot to be gained from taking them in terms of your own growth and development, absolutely, your critical thinking skills, your ability to craft an argument and present that through your history and your English classes, and to be analytical and dig through data through your science courses, right? So you have a lot to gain from these courses that we're about to mention, but we know that you're all individuals as well. So Susan Tree 10:21 yeah, and I would dare say that the student who grows up wanting to be a fashion designer ought to know a lot about science and ought to know a far another foreign language, and ought to know a lot about History and Sociology. So many students want to know, what do I have to take in my high school curriculum to get in. Well, what colleges resort to, usually, is saying we expect you have to have taken the basics, like across the five academic disciplines we expect you to have taken, you know, obviously whatever your high school requires you to take for graduation. Beyond that, though, are the recommendations, and if you look at the common data set in the C section and friends, if you don't know what the common data set is, is, it's just simply a standardized form on most, I would say 95% of the colleges and universities publish it on their website in this standardized form, but it's not in the admissions part of the website. It's usually in institutional research. Yeah, you go to the C section, what they'll do in the C section is give you a chart of required high school coursework and recommended high school coursework. The college's own website will often give this to you as well, but with an explanation. So use the common data set for maybe a quick look, but then definitely go to the college's website. Look for academic requirements, and you'll get a little bit more of a description. Because remember, if you're applying to a university that is evaluating you for engineering or for business or for potentially the liberal arts, for nursing, for Applied Science, you should look a little deeper, because you know, three years of math is probably not going to cut it for those STEM fields, including nursing right and two years of foreign language is not going to cut it for communications and journalism or international relations. So be careful about what you kind of take at face value, but know that the more competitive the university, the more coursework and the higher level of coursework they are going to look for on that high school transfer, particularly the alignment with what you've taken in high school And what you then are expressing as your area of academic interest, or in some cases, when you're applying directly to a major, but even the required and recommended number of courses at the very selective colleges, you will have applicants who go way beyond. They will have six years. You know, they'll be in not always, but if they're looking at a STEM field and they took their second year of calculus in 10th or 11th grade, I kid you not, then you can't. You have to find out a way to take multi variable calculus or linear algebra or number theory, and if your school doesn't offer it, because a lot don't. Then you check out the local community college, you check out what you can do online. You check out Coursera, yep, MIT, MOOCs, yep, massive online, free classes. There are ways, you know, no matter where you go to high school, where you can create opportunities for yourself to keep moving forward. Your high school doesn't offer a poetry class. Someone does you know? Your guidance counselor doesn't have any great ideas. Does your English teacher have some ideas? There are ways you see Scout, Yale open courseware, but it can show, wow, there wasn't a way to do this, but I found a way to make it happen, even if I'm not getting credit for it. You know, maybe it'll never be on a transcript. Maybe it will, but how wonderful to show that level of of interest. Tom Campbell 14:37 Yeah, and like, self directedness, I talk about that a lot in the highly selective courses, is how valuable that can be to see and have that be demonstrated somewhere in a student's file. And I love that you said like, I'm not getting credit for this because there's right, there's like, such that link in association with like, well, if it's not creditable, it's not worthwhile, or it's not worth including. And something. Else that you you touched on just now is kind of the variance of, for example, if you're interested in certain selective STEM programs, and you go to a competitive High School where a lot of kids are also looking at those programs in schools, and there are a lot of courses available, I think it really kind of starts to introduce the part of the podcast, which is about school context, and, you know, a lot of times, a big question that I'll get from students and families is, but what about my school? Like, just people on admissions really know how hard it is? Or do you know that? You know, my 4.0 at, you know, Lakeshore drive Academy is way harder than Roscoe Village School, those 4.5 these are just the neighborhoods near me in Chicago where I'm staying. Every corner is a source of inspiration. But, yeah, it really is. I think an understandable question is like, how do people in admissions like, how are they gonna judge me or compare me to other people who are also applying, both from my school and around that, I think for families, if you're curious about the way that your high school is viewed by Admissions offices, the very first thing that I would say that you should do is look up the school profile from your high school. Oftentimes, I've actually found out that people, surprisingly, are not aware that this exists. These documents are typically available, you know, to students and families and the public in general, right? So a admissions officer who maybe is looking for more information, might look up some of those data points on a school's website, and usually what it includes is information just about the courses that are available in the high school. So what type of curriculum is there? Is it advanced placement, AP, curriculum, IB, International Baccalaureate diploma? Is it the school's own unique advanced or Accelerated pathway that they may have, that they've designed themselves, which is great, you know, it's it's great when you're at a school where the teachers have influenced the curriculum, and maybe it deviates a little bit from some of these more standardized curriculum sets that are out there, no matter kind of what is out there, that the point or the real goal of the admissions officer is not to judge what your school is offering you. It's not to make value judgments on you that, Oh, you went to a school that has an AB curriculum, so you might be this type of kid that is not a part of the conversation. What they really want to know is, I am tasked. It's my job, you know, as an admissions officer, to evaluate students from this high school. I need to know that I'm presenting this file, what was available for them, and what did they leave on the table? And that's a big question that people in selective admissions offices are going to be asking themselves, related to your academic record right there also might include information around what percent of students go on to four year colleges. Often, that's used as a really, a really critical data point for admissions officers and getting a sense for for example, a student who is going from a school where 99% or 100% of students are going on to four year colleges, they may be more comfortable admitting a student who has a few more a minuses, maybe a few more b's a little, you know, quote, unquote, softness academically. Then say a student who is going to a school where only 20% of students go on to for your colleges, there's a little more of a pressure on students there to or a little bit of weariness around admitting students who are not quite at that top, top level at that type of high school, only because there will be concerns about the student's ability to be successful on the college level at that selective, rigorous college, right? So all that information is going to vary from high school to high school, but it is all valuable and helpful to people in admissions, in making those decisions. So my advice for students and families is usually first to be aware of what's being sent out there. Yeah, absolutely just and you know as a parent or guardian, if you you know, have any follow up questions or are curious about why maybe certain pieces of information are included and not others. This is not saying that everyone should be spamming the inboxes of their school counseling offices for my new distinctions, but if you do have any genuine concerns or like, hey, my students taking this class in this particular special program, you know, at the high school, and I'm not seeing a paragraph or a section explaining what that is, that might be something that I imagine people in admissions would really want to know. It's definitely worthwhile to, you know, advocate for your child and to make sure that the high school experience that your child has had is being reflected somewhere, or there's information about what pathway they were able to take on that particular document. Right? Every Susan Tree 19:18 family needs to sit down with a copy of the school profile and their students, their child's transcript, just as if they were an admissions officer looking at that transcript and trying to understand what was available to the student and what had the student taken advantage of. I met with a junior a week or two ago, Massachusetts, who high end mathematician, and I was curious to know what he had was planning for classes for his senior year. I looked at the school profile, which I found on the website of the high school, and I saw, Oh, here are the courses that are available to him. So. So when I talked with him and asked what he was taking, I said, Well, what are you taking for math next year? And he said, Well, I'd maxed out the curriculum, and I'm not sure really what to do. And I said, Well, on the profile, it says that your school offers whatever it was the second year of calculus or something. He goes, Oh, that hasn't been offered for years. And I thought, well, that was a classic example, right? Of a weirdness that would have been been noticed by the college, and while they they wouldn't have known how to interpret that then, you know, or the case of the student, where they couldn't take Mandarin three because the program had been eliminated, but it was still on the trip, on the profile. So I said to the student, I said, Okay, here's what you need to ask your counselor, is, is this profile going to be different next year to show and he said, Well, maybe sometimes it's like an every other year class. And I said, Well, find out who's explaining that you know when you when you apply, find out what the counselor is going to be saying, what the profile is going to be saying, what the counselor may be saying, and in this school report form, and you may need to take responsibility for explaining this. You know, the common application gives you an additional information section, and you can It's a wild card section. You can use it to add information, add context, explain weird things. So I you know that's that's really important to a lot of high schools, and this of now are speaking from the standpoint of an application reader. A lot of high schools, when you read transcripts, it's combat and it's almost like there's this minefield of information and lack of information that, as an admissions reader, you have to work your way through in order to get a fair assessment of the student. Some of this are states in this fine nation of ours that had never figured out how to present High School credentials in the college admission process Florida, Tom Campbell 22:07 if you're listening, yeah, a lot of you have a lot of critiques from admissions officers with you, the way the transcripts are printed out. Susan Tree 22:15 Oh, mg, yeah, it's Tom Campbell 22:19 the labyrinths for sure, and Susan Tree 22:21 again, I think if a parent requests the transcript exactly, not report cards, but a copy of the transcript as it will be shared with the colleges. And a lot of kids and parents don't realize that those are two different things, right? That the report cards you get at home are not what go to the colleges. The high school transcript is a different document, right? So your report card may show grades for every quarter. It may show absences, tardies and other extraneous information that that probably aren't going to be shared with the colleges, right? And the transcript may only show end of year grades, or it may show just semester grades, yeah. And then Tom Campbell 23:03 I think that can be so for some students, it can actually be very liberating, in a way, actually, to see like, Oh, gee, it's just a semester course. Gee, that time that I got that b minus in Calc first quarter, but then I brought it up back to, you know, an A minus second quarter, all they're seeing is that b plus or so, right? Like sometimes, I don't think students and families know that until it's kind of they've spent so much time and years of high school, sometimes even fretting about each individual report card and grade report. And I think the sooner you can realize what colleges have access to and what your school is sending in on your behalf, I think that can actually help to be strategic as a high school student. And know, hey, if I had a dip, you know, this quarter, I know that maybe next quarter, if I'm looking at these types of schools, that getting it up to a certain point is really going to be my goal in terms of having a grade that I feel will keep me in the running at some of these colleges that I'm interested in. And it can really kind of take away that kind of and it's something that I noticed working at a noticed working at a high school. And I think back to my own self, and I like pinch myself for being like, why were you so hyper fixated on each individual assignment? But I, you know, working at a high school, I remember, like, you could tell the ninth grade tables oftentimes, because all they were doing was talking about quizzes and grades and this and that. And, you know, I was at a, I was at a high school where, you know, it was a very high achieving population, and you had to apply to attend the school, and you were a star in your middle school, perhaps, right? And I think that's kind of, you know, sometimes, if you're, if you're a student who's listening, and you, and you do attend a school like that, sometimes it's all you know, and it's all you've kind of been known because one of the biggest things that you've been known for is kind of that star academician, that star academic student, and to be in an environment where there are a lot of other stars you know from their previous school can be, I mean, it's the same it's the same thing at college, there's a lot of talk about imposter syndrome. And, yeah, no, that's again podcast for another day. But all that to say. Yeah, I do think being aware of what's being communicated, you know, and how it's being communicated about your academic experience is a really crucial question to be thinking about sooner than later, not so that you can be so, so stressed out and have it be like the laser focused goal of like, I need to make sure it looks a certain way when it's being submitted, because life is not often that predictable, right? Pandemic, right? There are things that come around that none of us could have predicted, but I do think that awareness can actually be a blessing rather than a hindrance, because it oftentimes puts into perspective how that localized view of your high school experience is not the admissions officers reality. That's right, they do not know that that week March of 2023 you have bombed this midterm because so and so, you know, was stranded at the parking lot. You had to pick her up and you weren't able to study. They will never know about that particular, you know, Smidge instance in your existence, and the existence of the entire human history. And I think, kind of just knowing that you don't have basically like all eyes on you at every single second of your life can be abreast at ease moments. You know, since we're all about ease, purpose and joy at college essay, that's right, and Susan Tree 26:18 and it eliminates some of the fear of the unknown when you kind of know how things so I think an important thing is, when you look at your own transcript, say, at the end of your junior year, you can say to yourself, Okay, I can understand now that you know, when I had motto in 10th grade, it doesn't show that what I was worried about isn't showing up, or it is, or the fact that my teacher left in the middle of the semester on maternity leave, and we didn't actually have a teacher for a period of time. And it helps to be able to talk to your guidance counselor or your school counselor, whoever's going to be writing your letter on behalf of the school, and say, Who's explaining this? Is this something you know? It seems like it's more something the school should explain. Now, if there's been a change in counselor, someone needs to know what you think would be helpful for them to include in the as they represent your record. You know what? What students often don't realize is that when a a college sits down and is evaluating their application, and they're looking at the transcript. They're really looking at a historical document that has a lot of context to it. So they're looking at grades nine through at least through the end of 11th grade, and possibly part way through 12th grade, depending on the time of the year. And they're looking at a student with particular academic interests and particular strengths. So the question of AP or this class or that class is not looked at in a vacuum. It's looked at as part of kind of a historical journey that a student has taken through their their high school experience, the context in which that is read, is what is available at the school, and how they manage the curriculum and the curriculum choices that kids have to make from year to year. Some high schools, if you'd all join the pre AP program, which could be in middle school, actually seventh or eighth grade, but at least in ninth grade, you don't get to be in the AP track. It's viewed as a track as opposed to options for different classes. A lot of high schools offer some APS if they offer any at all, and there are plenty of high schools in the country that do not use the AP curriculum. Some high schools believe that offering, like all, I think it's 36 AP subjects, you can fact check that for me Tom, some are semester in length. Some are year long classes. They equate the number of APS with the prestige of their high school, and they view it as a selling point. Real estate agents use it as a selling point. They believe colleges are really impressed by this. And truthfully, colleges don't judge high schools that way. They really don't. They. They don't look at standard measures like that. They'll look and see what the nature of the curriculum is that's being offered, and then they'll look at you as an applicant and say, Well, what, what did this student take advantage of? So there's a lot of work that the colleges have to do. They have to slow down study what the high school is all about, and really work at unpacking the students transcript. But students need to help. They need to to make sure the school is representing them well, and also they have to tell their own story as to their learning style. What is the the academic platform? On which their high school curriculum has been built, and why does it represent for them an excellent preparation for whatever it is they are hoping to study in college, right? Tom Campbell 30:11 Yeah. I mean, I think schools make decisions based on what's best for their communities, and I think so frequently I've worked with students and families who have been really concerned about the perception of the courses at their school. I think that's kind of where collaboration between students families and the counselor in the high school, like, if you are encountering and as especially if you have the chance, which it can be difficult, you know, to be able to have, you know, especially increasingly so maybe phone calls or communications via email with individual admissions officers, but just getting a sense for kind of how they are viewing different parts of your curriculum. Because, yeah, I've been to many schools where there is a disconnect between the applicants that were being sent to me and how many advanced placement classes that were there and what the students took, and it seemed surprisingly light, especially because there'd be one or two kids who did have that higher number of advanced placement courses that I was saying, Okay, well, if there are a small handful of kids doing this, obviously it's you're able to do it. There's not curriculum limits that are being mentioned in the school program, right? I would, I would take the time to to get to learn that. But I do think making sure that your school profile is as clear and and captures the reality of like, what these courses actually mean, what they do, what they have capacity for, the level of them, is something that, however you can can communicate that message. So this is definitely a tip for counselors here, and definitely investing time in a easy to read school profile that really breaks down the levels essentially, of these classes, great. And, you know, I understand that there's lots of nuance between individual teachers that offer it. And of course, like in a given year, sometimes there might be a teacher who's on paternity or maternity leave or isn't, is the only person who was teaching the class so it wasn't offered that year. You know, making sure, I've seen schools, for example, put like, red bolded text on the top of a school profile in a certain year that it's being sent out to be like, hey, critical updates for the 2023, application cycle, like, this class is not being offered for XYZ reasons. You know, those extenuating circumstances are definitely it's it's great when students can mention that in their own words, but kind of having there be something that's written in a profile that way, all your students can benefit from it, right in the case that they don't, with that little blurb in their Additional Information section and their common application, at least it's there for an admissions officer to see And notice clearly based on those, just like those visual distinctive features, whether it's highlighted bolded red, you know, ink, whatever it may be, just any of those kind of particularities mentioning those And absolutely, yeah. And I think you know when it comes to if you are a high school student who does have an AP curriculum available to you, I do think being aware that colleges will be looking at the number of classes that your school says that they offer, and if there are certain barriers, like, what, what Susan had just mentioned around, you know, you have to be tracked for certain classes. You know, there may have been things that happen when a lot of students may, for example, like transfer high schools, and maybe sometimes that might impact their ability to track into certain advanced classes in that new school, right? Really just making sure that the admissions officer is not going to know that full back story if you do not communicate it or mention to your counselor, hey, this is something that I really want to make sure colleges know about my experience related to having access to this. So I just think that more information when it comes to essentially any of these, kind of like, Oh, I wonder why they didn't take insert course, if there's a reason as to why, including that in your rationale and in your application somewhere, it doesn't have to be everywhere, but somewhere is definitely, I'd say, a great rule of thumb, absolutely. And then in terms of, you know, just getting really pragmatic with the AP curriculum and just recommending specific courses, I mean, is going to be those core solid academic areas, right sciences, right physics, biology, chemistry, at many selected schools, there will be an expectation that you take in those courses and what level they are at depends on what your school offers. But if you are in a school that has AP, all three of those classes, and you're wondering, hey, you know, will I still be competitive at? Insert a highly rejected school. Let's use, you know, use Chicago right now, just for the sake of variety, right? If I take AP Environmental Science instead of chemistry, for example, like, will that impact my chances? And the answer, to be very frank, is yes, right? That's a school where the level of selectivity for students is going to allow them to choose the students who have taken the most challenging classes in those core, solid academic areas, even if I. Students not necessarily like doesn't necessarily identify as a stem student, right on pursuing a STEM major, right? So I think you know, in kind of asking, how will colleges view XYZ courses in general, the fact that you're taking advanced placement classes at all is showing a level of investment in your education beyond, yes, absolutely, which is great, and that's something that colleges across the spectrum, regardless of their selectivity, will recognize that and factor that into their assessment. I do think kind of like one of my biggest insights that I kind of learned from my own experience, like applying to college and thinking about what was available at Cathedral High School in Springfield Mass and then working at admissions at Holy Cross and Pomona, I, for example, opted for a class in my high school had advanced placement physics, chemistry and biology and science was never really necessarily my huge forte, and I didn't really want to pursue that in college. It wasn't my my goal, but I knew I wanted to take advanced sciences, you know, because I wanted to be competitive for more selective schools. And in my eyes and work and in talking with my counselor, I was kind of under the impression that taking honors biology two, I had already taken Honors Biology one, the ninth grader and honors biology two was a super cool, very unique class offered by my high school was an aquaculture class. Wow, super unusual, right? So we actually, like, had a fish tank in the classroom. We grew the fish. We learned all about kind of the processes behind running a fish farm, the biology behind fish. Every lesson was like, so, so niche and interesting, and you learned a lot out of it was very it was a lot more project based than the original honors biology, one which was very traditional introductory, advanced science class for students just starting out in high school, right? But the teacher taught this like it was so clear, Mr. Broder. Shout out to Mr. Broder. He really invested in putting this class together that was so unique. There's so many great takeaways from it, of course. You know, I just turned 31 this past week, and I can't exactly tell you all the intricacies of the fish biological reality, but we did actually end up eating the fish in the end. We cooked them in school cafeteria. They were catfish. So we had a nice little Cajun celebratory, which people are like, that kind of morbid you like, grew these fish in class and then ended up eating them in the end. And I'm like, Hey, Circle of Life, that's what biology is all about, right? So anyways, from this, you know, little this little swimming up course, from what we're talking about, I thought because this class was so unique and cool and so hands on, that colleges would really easily understand that and recognize, you know, this cool academic path that I had chosen to take. But what I neglected to realize was that the way that the course was not necessarily given as much air time as I thought admissions officers had the time or energy or ability to dive into another Susan Tree 37:55 another bad pun, not Tom Campbell 37:56 intentionally. Yes, very bad. But that's actually kind of like that just rolled right off the tongue, but I didn't realize that, honestly, I probably would have been more competitive at a wider range of schools because my school offered AP biology. I had a lot of classmates who took it the opera culture class, to me, was more interesting for all the reasons I mentioned, but I didn't put the pieces together that someone on the other end, all these admissions officers who you know, are reading for lots of different high schools in a region, they're being given information provided by the high school about what these classes are, and they're given certain levels of rigor. Honors is listed below AP in terms of, you know, the level, right, hierarchy, right? And hierarchy, right? So I think that that is just something to be aware of, that unless there is some explicit mentioning of these levels, and there is going to be in terms of making this workflow efficient and kind of to make it digestible for admissions officers to get to know every high school. It really is the way that that information is presented. That is the way they're going to be making these decisions. So if I was to, like, turn back the clock, you know, I probably would have disclosed a little more information about taking this aquaculture class and why I chose it. And I feel like if an admissions reader saw that small kind of explanation in my additional info section, that inevitable question that they may have been, that they may have received from a colleague? Well, why didn't he take AP Bio? It's available at the high school. That admissions officer would have had a rationale from me Susan Tree 39:28 to defend your defender, and Tom Campbell 39:32 especially for grounding it in you were curious about the class. You thought it looked really neat, then this is what you got out of it. Who is to say how much that short explanation will tip the needle in terms of someone really understanding the scope of what you have taken a part of. But it's worth it to invest in actually doing it than not, because you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by mentioning your intentional decisions behind your course. Absolutely. So I think that's like a really big. Takeaway, regardless of if you're in an AP school, IB school, whatnot. Yes, you probably are wondering, Is someone going to see AP environmental science with the same way as AP Chemistry? The rule of thumb is probably not, right. It doesn't mean you shouldn't take AP environmental science. It's a great class, especially right now. It's so timely, so many students are interested in how we can better address climate change. It's a great way to be able to learn the foundations of what's happening to the planet and what's what has happened over 1000s and 1000s of years of evolution. Right? So taking the class has a lot of benefits for it, beyond just being competitive for colleges and yes, because it is an advanced placement class that still will be seen as an elevate the level of investment beyond the standard classes your school offers. But it's just kind of understanding, again, that the default of the core solid academic courses, there's going to be areas where that's not as so does weighty, not as defined, right? So the history and social studies offerings for advanced placement classes are not going to necessarily be like, oh, you should definitely take AP world instead of AP US, because it's more expansive. Sure that is true, because world, you know, world history, is going to cover more options. But in admissions, it's not going to be seen, for example, as a decision between an environmental science class, which is not considered a core solid science classes. There's a little more nuance, I'd say, with some of the other subjects I grade studies with. You know, for example, language, no one in additions is gonna be like, well, the school offered Mandarin, they offered Japanese, they offered German, they offered Spanish, and the student took Spanish. They could have taken something more creative. That's not a real scenario that happens, right? So it can be hard to kind of like understand how someone on the other end is going to evaluate those decisions. But in general, I would say, if your school offers both AP Language and AP Literature, I would recommend taking both of those, right if you want to be competitive for selective colleges, even if you are not, if you're like, Oh, I'm a stem kid, right? I'm not as interested in English. If your school offers those two classes, and you want to be competitive for schools with you know, I'd say less than, like, a 30% acceptance rate. That's a very generalized recommendation, but generally, they're going to see those two classes offered and wonder why you didn't take insert class, right? Susan Tree 42:21 Interestingly, you know, more and more schools in the US, especially, pretty high end schools, mostly private, some public have laid down the Advanced Placement curriculum in their school. This was a tidal wave on the east coast, from Washington, DC to New York that independent schools, within a period of a couple of years, brought forward what is now known as the independent curriculum, and independent curriculum that is designed by the faculty so students can go farther in their academic disciplines, beyond AP. And those were kids who, in some cases, were being changed by the AP curriculum, right? And if their parents were paying to send them to an independent school, it just wasn't, it wasn't right. So DC, Philadelphia, New York, suddenly, there are a lot of independent schools that have independent curriculum and the high schools, including the one that I worked at for many years, have have now have enough history to know that, if anything, their students were advantaged in the college admission process, as opposed to disadvantage, which was an original an original thought, but it takes A little studying on the part of the admissions reader to look at the profile and make sure they see what the school offers and what the students are taking who are at the very top of the rigor ladder, so to speak, because that often carries the Day in an application evaluation at a very competitive universe. Yeah, and IB Tom, you know, as a reader, when I read an IB student, I first look to see if they're a diploma candidate, because they are an old diploma candidates, right? Some students are taking a hybrid model of AP and IB, and you just want to as a reader of that application, you want to see, well, what does that mean? Why aren't they an IB deploy the candidates this hybrid model, give them access to a broader, you know, range of courses, more, more rigor, perhaps. Yeah, that was appropriate. So there's not an automatic judgment, but you do as an evaluator, have to figure that out, right? And if, if a student is a diploma candidate, then you need to look at what the higher levels are. There are three of those, once in a blue moon four, but you never expect to see more, right? It's kind of breaking a lot of rules for a student. To take four higher levels, but those higher levels are a two year sequence, right? And then in the fall, at the end of junior year, there will be predicted IB scores, which can make a big splash at highly selective you know, if someone's crossing that 40 barrier, that 40 threshold, that's something that the the most selected colleges in the US will immediately notice, that's top of scale, and then they will get in. Is it October of senior year or the equivalent of senior year will get IB scores. And now my timing may be off a little bit. There some schools, you know, pandemic interrupted so much there, but the choice of your higher levels is an interesting one, because IB curriculum has diversified a fair amount in the last years. And you know, you can do higher level now in business and film, in in areas that were not considered necessarily to be the courses of highest rigor, but they're being taught at the higher level, and the students getting an IB diploma, more power to them. This, just like with AP, the students should be taking advantage of the most rigor that they can get in the areas they're most interested in and most likely to be saying they're going to be studying, yeah. So, you know, if you're thinking about studying physics or engineering, you should be looking for the highest level of rigor in, you know, in math and science, right? Tom Campbell 46:36 Know that. It's funny. I used to joke that, like, when I saw an IB school and it was a diploma candidate, I would be like, Oh, this is an easy one, because you don't have to, like really much looking and comparing to, okay, what which level math did a student take of junior year? Or, you know, what was available from, you know, based on the AP load at the school, because there's a lot more variance right of AP distributions depending on the individual High School and what teaching staff that they have available to teach those courses. I think that you know, for students who are coming from an ID school, I think do know that people in admissions really see the value of that curriculum. There's a lot of, I think, great skills that you're developing that really translate easily to college, especially with your theory of knowledge course with your as an essay. And actually, I highly encourage IB students to even mention briefly in their Additional Information section what that project was you spent so much time working on it, and it is a small snapshot of the journey you're about to embark on on the college level with in depth research and really kind of driving a project forward, and having it be driven by your own curiosity and interest. So I definitely think that if you're at an IB school, that's great. And I think one thing I always you know, with any of these kind of like points of if when I like, shout out certain schools or certain curriculum, I always think about the kid who's listening, who's like, but I don't go to that school, does that mean that I'm lesser or I'm not going to be seen as as college ready? And I I always catch myself in those moments to kind of put it out that disclaimer that like any time where I'm highlighting or propping up a certain course option, it's not me saying this is the ranking or one Tom Campbell, who's one admissions officer out of many of all the different types of rigor that's available. It's not my job again to like judge, or it's not my job to be like everyone should be transferring to this type of school because it's the easiest to read on a transcript, and you gain a lot of great skills, right? So I think if you're a student who's listening and you know any of the pieces of advice that we're giving or situations that we're putting out their types of schools. Really do know that that person who's on the other end is not there to judge your high school there? That's not they're not evaluating your school. They're evaluating you, you know, and they're evaluating what you're able to contribute to their community. And for everyone, no matter what your educational background is, has something to contribute to these college campuses. It doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be admitted to all of your top choices, or even, you know, some of the schools that you as you go through this college journey, you may be surprised that you're like, Oh, I thought that that was a target. And then maybe you'll learn from your college counselor that maybe it's more of a reach. It's not to say that, yeah, there's no, there's no value judgments that are coming along with your school. People in admissions have seen it all right? We've talked about schools that we have seen that have narrative evaluations and ones that have trimesters and semester we're really big at college as a guy about controlling what you can control, right? And we hope that the information that we're providing around different course options of options of rigor and advanced courses are helpful context for you to know kind of like what's out there and how situational and it will be for someone in admissions to evaluate you, and you know how it will be a completely different lens than when they're evaluating even the students from the school down the street from you. So hopefully that provides a little more relief than stress, because, yeah. There's hundreds of different, 1000s of different ways to, quote, unquote, do school, right? And though all those students are a part of these college communities, because, as you mentioned, Susan, right, everyone's bringing something different. Everyone's bringing a different perspective. They bet in different learning, learning environments, and that's going to influence what they contribute to discussions and work on the college level research, you know, groups and labs. There's so many studies that kind of have demonstrated how that variety allows problem solving to be so much more accurate and dynamic and also effective. That's right, ever many students listening, you may be actually, this might be the first time that you actually are going to an environment where there is more variety than what you're used to. That's, I think, a huge benefit to attending a US college, and a huge benefit towards going down that path excellent light. And there you have it. Lots of tea spilled around how colleges view your academic record and what choices you can make to make yourself more competitive. Hopefully, if you're a younger student or family, you have lots of time to implement our advice. But if you're coming to us as a senior and you don't have a time machine to turn back your courses and grades, stay tuned for our second episode all about intellectual curiosity and how you can share that with colleges through your application. No transcript needed. All right. Cheers to you all. Much love. And as always, stay curious. You. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
