Show Notes
Today’s episode concludes our 9-part “What Colleges Want” series, where we’ve been walking through the results of the report released by the National Association of College Admission Counselors (NACAC) regarding the factors that colleges deem important. Ethan is joined by Jay Rosner (Executive Director of The Princeton Review Foundation) to talk about standardized testing.
In this episode they get into:
What are the origins of the SAT?
What’s changed in the testing landscape in the last year or two?
Does test optional really mean test optional?
How much standardized tests matter for colleges?
How do students figure out their preparation timeline and which test to take?
Why might testing be considered problematic?
As the Executive Director of The Princeton Review Foundation, Jay Rosner has developed programs jointly with such organizations as the NAACP, the Hispanic Scholarship Fund, College and Graduate Horizons (serving Native American students) and the Asian Pacific Fund. Jay’s career has combined education and law, with an emphasis on student advocacy. He has testified before state legislative committees in California, Texas, Illinois and New Jersey, and as an expert witness in cases involving testing. Before attending law school, Jay was a public high school math teacher. Jay holds a BA from the University of Pennsylvania, a JD from Widener University, and is the proud father of two grown daughters.
Hope you enjoy!
Play-by-Play
2:16 – How does Jay know so much about standardized tests?
4:23 – What are the origins of the SAT?
6:40 – How has standardized testing changed in recent years?
11:25 – Is test-optional really optional?
13:26 – How much do standardized tests matter in the application review?
14:49 – Who should take standardized tests?
20:24 – Is it better to take the SAT or the ACT?
23:30 – What are the benefits of quality test prep?
27:10 – How can students reach their best score?
33:54 – How do students know if they should submit their scores or not?
38:40 – Advice for counselors working with students in marginalized populations
42:05 – Why do some folks find standardized testing to be problematic?
45:00 – Closing advice for students and counselors
Resources
Show transcript
Ethan Sawyer 0:08
Hey friends welcome back to the podcast. So this is the final episode in our what colleges want series where we've been walking through the results of the report released by the National Association of college admission counselors on the factors that colleges deem most important. And here in our final episode, we're talking about standardized tests. By the way, side note, there are other minor factors beyond standardized tests that some colleges consider things like interviews and subject tests. But according to the report, the majority of colleges give little or no importance to these things. So that's why I'm not dedicating a whole episode. So my guest today is Jay Rosner, a man who's dedicated much of his 40 plus year career to standardized testing first as a teacher, now as the executive director of the Princeton Review foundation. So besides knowing all the ins and outs in the specifics of testing, he also happens to know more about the history of the test. And pretty much anyone else I know. In this conversation we get into what are the origins of the LSAT? What's changed in the testing landscape in the last year or two? This test optional, really mean test optional? How much do standardized tests actually matter for colleges? Then we get into some of the specifics of how do you know which test is right for you? What's a good preparation timeline? How do you know what a good score is, quote, unquote. We also discuss why some folks consider testing to be problematic. In the shownotes, you'll find a crash course on standardized testing blog posts that will give you lots and lots of links to answer pretty much all your questions related to standardized tests. A little more about J. As the executive director of the Princeton Review Foundation, he's developed programs jointly with organizations like the NAACP, the Hispanic Scholarship Fund, college and graduate horizons serving Native American students and the Asian Pacific fund. His careers combined education and law with an emphasis on student advocacy. Before attending law school, Jay was a public high school math teacher, he holds a BA from the University of Pennsylvania, a JD from Weidner University, and he's the proud father of two grown daughters. Hope you enjoy.
Jay, you've been I said, this mentioned this in your bio briefly, but you've been thinking about standardized tests in one way or another for more than 30 years. So, Jake, my first question is, Why should students listen to you this guy when it comes to standardized testing, because
Jay Rosner 2:31
I've been through the rigor? And I'll tell you what the rigor is, I testified as an expert witness, not on the LSAT but the LSAT, but I testified to see kind of the same themes and topics, and said many of the same things that I would have said about the SATs. I testified in federal court in Detroit, in 2001, at the trial of the Grutter case, which was the landmark University of Michigan Law School affirmative action case. And when you testify as an expert witness and an important case, something happens that's really unsettling. And that is, they take your deposition, where you sit in a conference room, with attorneys across the table, who can ask you any questions, say what, and you have to answer under oath. It was painful wasn't the word. It was excruciating? Because they didn't like me. And they were asking questions, trying to poke holes in everything I had to say. And I did that for eight hours. It was an entire, you know, three hours in the morning, and then we had lunch and like, four or five hours in the afternoon. So I think students should pay attention to what I have to say, because I've run the gauntlet for your students. I've taken the punishment. I've got the bruises, to support, my thinking, my deep thinking and my understanding of these issues, because they've been examined by people whom you really don't want, bothering you with a lot of questions. So let's go back. And
Ethan Sawyer 4:23
folks who aren't interested in this, you can fast forward but I want to hear and I think other folks might be interested in what are the origins of the LSAT? The
Jay Rosner 4:31
origins of the LSAT go back to 1926. Prior to 1926 there were people developing tests that purportedly measured mental capabilities of one sort or another Albert day, or is it Alfred Binay in France, develop tests that imagine this. Were designed to die We'd know students weaknesses, so that they can then be improved through education and instruction. That kind of testing morphed into the sa t, which was designed by Carl Brigham in 1926, to measure mental capabilities, and Brigham later denounced his own test, as not measuring things with specificity that were significant enough to consider in any educational context. And the developers of the LSAT these days, don't want you to know that the founder of the LSAT actually criticized the instrument several years later, but the instrument the LSAT, why went on and actually has the same disparate results these days that it did when it was initially designed in 1926. There are unfortunate disparities in test scores by race, ethnicity, and gender, that are designed in and built into the LSAT in ways that I've done some research to demonstrate. And the instrument is skewed and flawed and simply should not be used. But it has been, although its use clearly is diminishing, because test optional is now the status quo. J.
Ethan Sawyer 6:40
So talk to me about how has testing changed in the last say, year or two.
Jay Rosner 6:47
There have been some changes, the interesting thing is their changes in perception. And let me explain. And it's simplest to go back for a start four years ago, so that you can see where the last year fits. So four years ago in 2020 was COVID. There were 1000 colleges that were already test optional. And about 800 More give or take when test optional, because test administration's for the LSAT and ICT were being canceled. And those of those 800 were most of the schools that most people have heard of. So you have a situation where for about three years, in other words from 2020 to 2023. Those schools stay those new are test optional schools stayed test optional. And then it's about 2023, that you have a couple of schools reverting to requiring tests, in other words, going from test optional to being test required. And those schools were unusual in that they had different reasons. Georgetown, MIT, a few others, then within the last year, and in fact, within the last several months there, there have been five Ivy League schools five of the eight that have shifted from test optional back to require you to test now and a few others, the University of Texas, Austin and a couple of others, but of the so so there's this specific perception based on New York Times articles at Washington Post articles and both of those influential newspapers have editorialized in favor of colleges reverting to requiring the tests. There's this perception that there's this great movement back from test optional to requiring the test when in fact of those 800 schools in four years, there are about 15 School 15 colleges, only 15 colleges that have reverted. So what we have instead of the perception of moving back to requiring tests, I have friends emailing me all the time, friends who aren't involved in college admissions who say, what's going on with college admissions, everyone's going back to require the TAs and I have to explain to them Yep, 15 out of 800 is hardly everyone. In fact, it's a trickle. Now, what's going we're at the beginning of the time period, which exists over the next two or three months in which colleges were will announce what their application requirements are and their testing requirements are for this Fall for students who are applying to be admitted next September. And so the question is, what will happen to this trickle? Will it stop? Will it continue to be a trickle? Or will it be more than a trickle? And we will know that in the next two to three months, I shouldn't predict. But my prediction is perhaps another dozen schools with names that most people have heard of, we have maybe two does, will revert to require the test. So that's actually in the whole context of the situation, a slight increase in the trickle and not really a change. However, there's it's this perception nationally because of the press, that Yale and Dartmouth and brown were the first three. Then more recently, Harvard and Caltech got a lot of publicity. What didn't get much publicity as Cornell which just announced a couple of days ago. So you have five of the eight Ivy's, you have places like Caltech, and the University of Texas System, which are well known schools, not know much beyond that. Several more schools, but it's still a number that is slightly more than you can count on two hands. Jay,
Ethan Sawyer 11:25
one of the things that I spent a lot of time thinking about I know you spend a lot of time thinking about is access and equity. Now, I know that there will be some counselors listening to this podcast who work primarily with students of color, wondering, What do I tell my students? And I don't want the takeaway to be well, it sounds like Jay and Ethan were saying, saying on the podcast that tests don't matter. And so I should tell my students to not take the test, because that's not necessarily true. Because I hold that. And I believe you hold that there are certain instances where the positive a great test score really does matter and can make a difference. What advice would you give to students or rather to counselors who primarily work with students
Jay Rosner 12:02
of color? For counselors, I think, step one is to understand that tests are less important than when you were in college, applying to college. And test optional means that your students can apply to the very large majority of schools, colleges in this country without a test. However, for some students, a good test score will be very advantageous for some minoritized students, a good test score will be very advantageous. So some of the questions that I suggest the counselor as individual students are, number one, how do you feel about taking the test? If a good score might advantage you? Do you think you can do some test prep, and get ready to go in and get your best score and do that? And if and if a student says, yes, then there's a good reason to take the test, get a score, which a student can then choose to use or not use based on the student consulting you and getting advice as to whether it will be advantageous or not advantageous to us. If the student exhibits a disinclination to take the test, even when told that getting a good score might prove to that students benefit if the student says, Oh, I'd really really rather not do that, then it's likely that it would not be a good idea for that student to take the test. But let me posit something right in the middle. And that is a student who says I'm not sure I'm encouraged that student to take the test. Because there's no the obligation is to spend some time getting ready to take the test, and then to take the test. And there is a financial obligation to pay for the test, but their fee waivers avail. So the primary obligation is some time, but there's no obligation to use the score. So the student who seems positively inclined to try it, encourage them, the student who seems pretty negative, about thinking about taking the test. They're okay in this environment. But the student who's in doubt somewhere in the middle, I give them a little push to to take the test, see what happens and then have the choice to use their score or not
Ethan Sawyer 14:49
cheap because what I'm hearing you say is like, what the student won't be spending as it were is the time but the potential upside could be huge. It could be A potential difference maker, right? One question I get from students a lot is wondering about is test optional, really test optional? Like, is it truly optional? Or is it one of those like optional, quote unquote essays where it's like, yeah, you should probably still write it. What's your sense?
Jay Rosner 15:16
Having spoken to a lot of admissions officers, I think test optional is really test optional. In the large, large majority of cases. In some cases, you know, there, there probably are disadvantages to students not submitting test scores. But I think that, my sense there's no research on this that I know. But my sense is, that's a pretty small minority of situations, I think students can rely on the fact that in the large majority of cases test option was really test optional. There really is no disadvantage to not supplying a test score. Core, of course, there's an argument that if you have a very high test score, why not submit it, but in the era prior to COVID, with the 1004 year schools that were test optional, prior to COVID, there were great stories from admissions officers that I heard pretty regularly finding out that students had an AC t score of 34, or an LSAT score of 1450, or 1500, which are very high scores, that those students didn't submit an admissions to a test optional College, and the admissions officers later find out about that and asked the students, well, you had an excellent score, can I ask why you didn't submit it? And the students invariably say, I love the fact that you were going to consider me as a full human being, you're going to understand my full context, and that you weren't going to rely on a number. I love that. So I didn't want to give you the numbering. And have you not do that. And you got to love that story. A lot about
Ethan Sawyer 17:04
what is your sense of how much standardized tests matter when it comes to admission officers reviewing the application?
Jay Rosner 17:13
Well, not having been in the room where decisions are made. I just go by some stories that I've been told when students are being discussed in committee, and someone makes a comment. But look at that score. And that comment could be, it's lower than we really want, or it's really high, and we might want to defer to it. So that comes up. And even if someone hadn't told me that, as human beings sit around discussing applications, you would know that that topic would come up, and that it would probably come up in that way, on a semi regular basis. And so that's been confirmed for admissions officers to be. And so you can see the TAs can play, contest score, can play, if it's being considered can play as a positive or negative, depending on how it fits in the context of the student's story and application, and in what the college is looking for in its review process. So
Ethan Sawyer 18:28
for students who are listening and wondering, should I take a standardized test? What advice would you give him? Who should take standardized tests?
Jay Rosner 18:35
That's a very live question, a complicated question. The answer is it depends. But let me give you some of the factors that a student should consider. I think, as a practical matter, unless you're a student, like the like, the ones I described, to, don't want the number used at all, even if it's very, very good. If you have a test score, or let me back up, if you can get a test score, that would be in sort of the top half of the scores that are above of the scores that the college typically takes, and you can get the typically the 25th and 75th percentile scores of schools from them. It would seem to make sense in most cases, to submit that score. But the question is, do you want to go through the rigmarole to get that score? Do you want to do the kind of test prep that you should do to get your best score? And is that whole process worth it? When you could be spending the 5060 7080 hours that you might spend in a good essay good, solid, intensive SAP prep program, doing something else that's really worthwhile? out. So it's it's a weighing of an allocation of resources, you have to factor in parental attitudes. Because if your parents are pushing you to take the test so that you have a score to submit, it may take more energy to fight them off, than to actually do the test prep and get the score. So that's another thing that has to be be factored in. But for students who are disinclined to take the test, and have other strengths in their application, and are wondering whether they'll be fully considered in admissions by test optional schools, I would say, don't take the test. Go for it. If you're applying to a test free school, you're entirely wasting your time to take a test for that school, that that should be an active consideration. So it depends on the student's attitude toward testing. It depends on their environment, ie parental harassment in a positive way and not being in a negative way. And other factors. How selective school are you interested in? If you're interested in schools that are not particularly selective? That's a good argument not to bother with the test. So that's a that's a long answer, to just point out some of the factors that should go into that decision. Do I take a test and then do I to submit the test is, is an even trickier thing that you basically discuss with your counselor? For every school that you're applying to,
Ethan Sawyer 21:43
right, say more? I'm gonna double click on that it might vary for certain schools. Why is that? Well,
Jay Rosner 21:49
some schools just seem to or are specific about putting more emphasis on scores than others. For example, if you're applying to Georgetown, you have to give them a score. You know, this is another factor here, Ethan. And that is, we're now in the first era in the history of our higher educational system, where a student can develop a list of eight or 10 schools that they want to apply to. And every school on that list is either test optional or test free. Back before COVID. The common experience was a student would have a list of eight or 10 schools. And two of them were test optional, and six or eight of them weren't. And that student had to take the test to satisfy the requirements prior to those schools. If a student I advise students look at your lists, and if they're all test optional, and test tray, you really should give serious consideration to not bothering with with the test at all. What about for schools where
Ethan Sawyer 22:55
test scores are sometimes tied to scholarships and financial aid? Unfortunate unfortunately, that's
Jay Rosner 23:02
a really important situation. And so a student has to go beyond those eight or 10 schools as to whether their test optional admissions, and if the student needs financial aid, the student has to check out whether they're also test optional. In financial aid, a lot of schools are a lot of schools aren't, more and more schools are, but there's still schools that aren't. So that could make a difference. One of the frustrating things we've had working with Native American students is there are Native American Tribal scholarships that still require test scores. So those students will have an entire list of test optional schools, many of them and then have to take the test to satisfy you know, a scholarship entity that's that's really unfortunate. For students
Ethan Sawyer 23:49
listening, wondering. And by the way, side note, will put a list of test optional and test free schools into the show notes for this podcast. And we'll keep it updated as that you know, changes from year to year. For students who are wondering, should I take the LSAT or AC T? What's a good way to find out?
Jay Rosner 24:08
Well, the very best way to find out takes from three to six hours and that way and you can answer that question for yourself definitively without really any much debt without any doubt at all. And that is to take a full practice LSAT and a full practice ACG, which would be at this point six about six hours and you don't do it the same day. That would be crazy. And you don't even do it successive days. Maybe one Saturday, take a poll practice. So at one Saturday morning and next Saturday morning, a full practice a CT. Most students don't have to do that because they've already taken the PSAT which can serve as a practice LSAT for the so for those students. Just three hours to take a full practice a CT and then Compare the scores. And there are tables that are available to compare LSAT scores to AC T scores and see which is you know, with the with the two numbers, which is relatively higher. So you can determine on which test you did best through that actual test taking experience. And then you will know which test you should pursue. Now, there are a couple other considerations there a thing that I should mention. One is, for a lot of students, those scores will be pretty comparable. In other words, they'll be even or close to even close enough to even that you could choose either test at you know, Coke or Pepsi, it doesn't matter. However, there is another factor that should be considered. And that is how you feel about the test. Because what I suggest is students if they're taking a test, and that's a big if, and if students are taking a test, they should only do significant test prep for one test, don't do significant test prep for the AC T and then do it for the SAP that's nuts, pick one test and do significant test prep for that test. So if your scores are comparable, but you kind of just feel a little bit better about the AC t, then choose the AC t because you're gonna be looking at the AC t a lot in Test Prep. And you might as well be in a context where you feel a little more comfortable. Even if you perform comparably on the two couple other factors. If all your friends are taking the AC T and you might get it in a little study group for the AC t, you might take the AC t even though you did a little bit better on the SATs because you'll be in a more supportive environment. And then the final consideration is how convenient is the test set. If the LSAT is given in your school, and you have to drive 40 miles to take the A CT and that might not be convenient for you. That would also indicate that your fellow students are probably taking the LSAT. Maybe you should take the LSAT, even if you did a little bit better when you took your practice a CT so so those are some of the main considerations in making that choice.
Ethan Sawyer 27:07
Do you feel like there are any benefits to be gained from preparing for the test beyond just raising my test score? In other words, do you feel like this is coming from my own background? Having taught testing? Do you feel like students can learn to become better thinkers, better readers, et cetera, et cetera, from prepping for the AC trs
Jay Rosner 27:29
80, not better thinkers, better readers of essay T reading comprehension passages, better readers of AC T reading comprehension passages, better readers overall, perhaps, perhaps. But better at the specific tasks required by the SATs and AC T I have two analogies that I love to use. Let me let me spring them on you quickly. Taking the SATs, you're taking the AC t as a performance. People think of it as a sort of a mental exercise. It's much more than that. It's a physical, there's a physical component because you have to be performing optimally and our shrink that takes energy and a moderately good physical conditioning, that if you don't have your score is going into the tank an hour. It's rigged. So there are other factors involved in the LSAT and a CT that make it a performance. And the analogies that I use is I say to students consider an artistic performance if you're a singer, dancer, musician, if you're an actor. What do you do to perfect that performance? Because you want if you're a performer of integrity, you want to give your best possible performance. Well, you rehearse and you rehearse intensively, and you are hearse for a while. Rehearsal isn't the night before, it's weeks, maybe months. And that's what you need to do to optimize your performance on the SATs. Chasity. It's completely analogous. Another analogy that I like to use, because I think a lot of students understand performing arts and can use that pretty effectively. But a lot of students understand sports. So if you're an athlete or a sports fan, you know that in order for athletes to give the best possible performance and athletes with integrity wants to do that. They do a couple things. They practice and they train and they don't practice and train the night before a couple days before this is again weeks and months. And they do it with discipline. And they do it rigorously. And they try to practice behaviors and performances that are very similar to what their actual, what they will face in their actual game or match or meat. And so test prep becomes equivalent to the practice or training that an athlete would do to give an optimal performance. And, by the same token, if it athletes short cuts, their their practice or training, they're not going to give their best performance. And I say to students, if you shortcut, a good fit or a CT prep, you're not going to get your best score, you're not going to give your AC T best AC T race, sad performance. That's just the way human beings work. And you can try to deny that reality. But if you understand that reality in the artistic performance and athletic performance realm, you'll have a better understanding of how that really works with SATs and AC T prep.
Ethan Sawyer 30:47
So I want to double click on that, let's talk ideal training regiment. So if you had to design it as a, we can keep the metaphor leave it, you know, the timeline for students? What does that look like? And how many practice tests should it involve?
Jay Rosner 31:03
Oh, I have, I have a very clear recipe for that, Oh, you got a third one? Great. My recipe is for most students, to do a thorough and intensive LSAT or a CT prep, it's an hour and a half a day, five to six days per week, because I believe in a day of rest. And I always say to students, you're welcome. For five to six weeks, right before the test. Now a lot of students and type a students and type a parents have students prepping for a year, two years, the way to think about it is that the most valuable prep time before the SATs, your AC T or is the three weeks right before the test. Because anything you learn or do any performance aspect that you perfect in that time, you're most likely to be able to perform three weeks later. The next most important time period is the three weeks before that, where what you do and what you learn and the performance aspects you perfect, you're probably going to be able to do within five or six weeks after that a year before the test, what performance behavior, whatever are you going to be able to do a year later, without at doing it every day for a year or almost every day for years. So the the early crazy, LSAT or AC T prep is nuts. However, there are some long term things you can do vocabulary and strength of reading, you can do before six weeks before the test, you want to do stuff six months before the test, work on your vocabulary, learn 678 LSAT type words a day and their lists of those to the kind of reading in a discipline way that's at the level that's tested on the SATs or AC T and there are ways to do that. And if you do those things, you'll actually improve your reading and improve your vocabulary. So those are good things to do anyway, and they will benefit you on the test. So I advocate for certain long term SATs and AC T preparation factors like those things by not doing bubble questions six months ahead of the test. That seems to me to be just not a fit, not efficient at all. Talk
Ethan Sawyer 33:39
to us about accommodations, what are they who gets them, et cetera?
Jay Rosner 33:43
You know, I try not to get too involved in accommodations because I think so a degree of medical expertise, which I don't have is required, but there are a couple of watchwords about accommodations. Number one, if you're think you need or want accommodations start very early, four or five months before the test, start investigating it. Typically you have to do some medical submissions from doctors to warrant accommodations, the most common accommodation is extra time. Just make sure you take enough time to do that. Consult with your counselor, get the medical advice and the kind of reports you need and start the process early. You know and also if students have their own individual plans at their schools, for accommodations if they got accommodation in their high school testing that helps, but I don't I don't go deeply into that realm because I don't have the medical background to really be able to advise beyond that kind of surface practical advice that I do give. You talked
Ethan Sawyer 34:59
about this breed briefly, but I just wanted to underscore to this particular way, because sometimes students will ask a question, what is a good score, quote unquote? And I think what they're asking oftentimes is like, should I submit X score, but maybe just give some practical guidelines of and you get, you've kind of already done this, but give us some practical guidelines of what would you say to a student who asks, What is a quote unquote, good score?
Jay Rosner 35:24
I would rather reframe the question to be what is your best score? Are you interested in what your best score? Because you if you are, I can answer that question and question about your best score is take a full practice test. Under Test Conditions, a full LSAT, or AC T, see what score you get. And then tell me the kind of prep that you're going to do before the official test. And I can give you a range of what your path best score is likely to be. So rather than discussing it, theoretically, if you're willing to spend three hours, we can discuss it with real information, we can then have informed discussion. And we can even do that with a PSAT score, assuming that you gave your best effort. So a student's best score will be the potential that they have to get their best score is some increment over what that first practice test score is. And we can make some estimates about that increment, depending upon what kind of test prep that that student is willing to do? Well, because
Ethan Sawyer 36:35
they won't be able to ask you later, I'm going to pretend to be a student and say, well, Jay, I got an 1190, on my practice tests under test conditions, and I'm going to, I'm going to do half of your plan, you have this great plan, but I just don't think I can do it I work I've just got too much to do, I can probably do 45 minutes, maybe for five weeks or so. Because I'm taking about a month and a half, What are my chances of getting a 1500 Zero
Jay Rosner 37:01
from assuming assuming you did your best on the test, on the on the practice test, your chances of what your realistic chances are getting up into the 1200s, mid 1200s, maybe a little higher, and your chances would be better if you were if you know, you would you would have a real shot at 1300. If you did the full test prep, not a guarantee, and not a likelihood. But a real shot. How do
Ethan Sawyer 37:31
average test scores from a student's individual High School factor into whether or not they should submit so say for instance, there's a student who goes to a rural high school limited resources, no student maybe has ever passed an AP exam. And for those who don't know, that would be like scoring a three. And they're the first to do it. For selective schools. Is it wise potentially for a student to consider submitting that score, even if it's not a four or a five? Yes,
Jay Rosner 38:00
and it would seem to me that the analogy for the PSAT and a CT would hold If your score is among the very highest in your school. Even if that score is not ultra high in your state or country because of the nature of your school, it would seem advantageous to point that out to the admissions office. Now, the irony is the admissions office probably configure that out, and has a sense of that. Because they have a sense, they get school reports. They know what the ranges are in lots of different high schools, and part of the art of admissions, and one of the things that admissions officers learn is to have a good sense of that. So I think in many cases, the admissions officers would figure that out, but there's certainly no harm. Yeah, assuming that they they see the score. Of course, if you don't submit the score, they can't figure that out. But assuming they see the score, I think most time they'll figure that out. But there would be no harm whatsoever in a student pointing out that by the way, I've managed to get one of the better scores in my high school. Yeah,
Ethan Sawyer 39:16
I want to give a quick example of that. There was a student that I worked with, who was an undocumented student I worked with him years ago. And he noted in his Additional Information section, and I'm going to read it to you here. And then I'm just going to will follow up in the show notes. So you can see the way this was written in PA two notes about testing. Now, part of the reason why he put this in is that his counselor, he wasn't sure his counselor was going to note this, and I don't even think he was gonna get a counselor recommendation letter. So he noted very simply in his Additional Information section and by the way, this is just a section of your application where you can put just like it sounds additional information. And he said, AP Physics one he said I was the first dude in my school to ever pass the AP Physics one exam. And then on the next line, he said there were two issues during that Just the test started late because the previous test ran long. And two during the AP Physics one exam, the fire alarms went off and continued for about an hour. She said, he said, unfortunately, this is the only time that test was offered. And I was nonetheless proud of my score. The other thing he noted was that he had the highest LSAT score in his class. So he scored, you know, a third, what would be the equivalent of a 1310. And, you know, for the selective schools that he was applying to, someone might look at a 1310 and be like, okay, you know, middle range, but this was the highest score in his entire grade. And he, I don't know exactly how he knew this, but he knew this, and he noted it. And so to students who are thinking, Is it okay, quote, unquote, to say that, whether you're a domestic student, you're not sure if your counselors would note something like this, you can advocate for yourself, you can put that on. Same thing for international students. I've worked with international students before, who've gone to great lengths just to get a chance to take the test. And I just want to encourage you if you've had to travel, for example, by bus to another city to go do this. And this is something that is I think, worth noting, because to your point earlier, Jaya, that context is just so important.
Jay Rosner 41:05
Yes. And, you know, for some communities of applicants, that would be considered bragging and distasteful. And of course, what counselors need to do is convinced students if they can, that that is context that enables the admissions officer to better understand what your situation is, and where you fit in the universe, and who you are. And so, so the kind of, you know, boastful bragging, a disincentive that some students may have to express that needs to be addressed. And hopefully students can find ways to express that. That doesn't seem to them distasteful,
Ethan Sawyer 41:55
right? It's not only okay, it's actually a good thing. And the framing that I'll often use is like your job with the application is to give the reader enough information for them to make an informed decision on your candidacy. And if this information is helping to inform them about your application, or the numbers they're saying, then I think it's okay to include. Jay, why does some folks find standardized testing to be problematic?
Jay Rosner 42:22
How much time do you have to? Well, it starts from the fact that the tests are skewed and flawed and misused and given much too much weight. And they're proxies for experience, rather than experience. The analogy that I love is standardized tests are like free throw, shooting, and basketball, free throw shooting is that involves basketball skill, but it's a limited skill. It's done in this sort of unusual context where everything stops, and somebody stands at a free throw line and has an unimpeded shot at the basket. That's not Basketball, basketball is five players, constant motion things happening all the time. That's basketball, free throw shooting is this bizarre little thing that happens in the game that often affects the game, but it's very different from the game and to iView testing the same way. Academia involves all kinds of courses and teachers and discussions and interactions that are complex and dynamic and involve a lot of moving parts. That's another thing about basketball, game basketball, a lot of moving parts for different shooting, almost no moving parts. Same thing with testing, almost no moving parts, isolated individual doing this thing that's supposed to relate to the larger, complex dynamic. It's test taking a static free throw shooting is static, academia's dynamic basketball is dynamic. How can a static situation reflect significantly on a dynamic situation? It just doesn't compute. But we do standardized testing, because it's cheap. Well, it's cheap for the colleges. It's lots of cheap for the students. But it's cheap, and it generates a number that folks think, is meaningful. And we proved in the unit we colleagues saw guys approved in the University of California situation, that test scores just really reflect socio economic status. They reflect family income, wealth and parental education. So you could use those things instead of test scores and not bother with tests if you want it to be honest and straightforward about the situation. So those are some of the many problems of the tests but I think Some of the main ones.
Ethan Sawyer 45:00
Jay, what do you want to leave students and counselors with? When it comes to standardized testing? What do you want them to know?
Jay Rosner 45:08
I want students and counselors to be very skeptical of the tests, skeptical of everything they hear about the tests. Understand that one of the really significant factors. And what we've seen over the last couple of years is 800. Schools, including, as I said, just about every school you can name. When test optional, every I should say, every selective and highly selective school you should make when test obsolete as a result of COVID. And they're not going back, just a couple of them are going back. And there will be a few more, but it's a trickle. And what that should tell you is the kind of skepticism that they have about the test is sticking. And they're willing to go forward with a structural factor of saying we're test optional. You don't have to give us a score if you don't want to. They're comfortable with doing that. And they're comfortable with the classes they're selecting. And the students that say that they're selecting that process. In fact, many of them are boasting that they're getting better, more diverse classes as a result. So I want students and adults and everyone in education to feel that, you know, the tectonic shift that has occurred with testing. That's best exemplified by the fact that almost no schools that have gone test optional, have reverted back to requiring the tests coach. Che
Ethan Sawyer 47:01
thanks so much for your time. Thanks, friends, for listening reminder that in the shownotes, you'll find not only links to some of the things that Jay and I discussed, but an accompanying crash course on standardized testing blog with tons of lengths to answer pretty much all the questions you would have about testing. You'll also find in there a link to a session I did with Jed Apple, Ruth of Apple roots tutoring that has a really great, robust and yet succinct summary of all of the updates to the digital LSAT. If you haven't checked out our YouTube channel, I recommend it. It's got hundreds of videos on college admissions and essays and we release content regularly. Just search college essay guy on YouTube and as the kids like to say, smash that like button. See you soon and stay curious
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show transcript
Ethan Sawyer 0:08 Hey friends welcome back to the podcast. So this is the final episode in our what colleges want series where we've been walking through the results of the report released by the National Association of college admission counselors on the factors that colleges deem most important. And here in our final episode, we're talking about standardized tests. By the way, side note, there are other minor factors beyond standardized tests that some colleges consider things like interviews and subject tests. But according to the report, the majority of colleges give little or no importance to these things. So that's why I'm not dedicating a whole episode. So my guest today is Jay Rosner, a man who's dedicated much of his 40 plus year career to standardized testing first as a teacher, now as the executive director of the Princeton Review foundation. So besides knowing all the ins and outs in the specifics of testing, he also happens to know more about the history of the test. And pretty much anyone else I know. In this conversation we get into what are the origins of the LSAT? What's changed in the testing landscape in the last year or two? This test optional, really mean test optional? How much do standardized tests actually matter for colleges? Then we get into some of the specifics of how do you know which test is right for you? What's a good preparation timeline? How do you know what a good score is, quote, unquote. We also discuss why some folks consider testing to be problematic. In the shownotes, you'll find a crash course on standardized testing blog posts that will give you lots and lots of links to answer pretty much all your questions related to standardized tests. A little more about J. As the executive director of the Princeton Review Foundation, he's developed programs jointly with organizations like the NAACP, the Hispanic Scholarship Fund, college and graduate horizons serving Native American students and the Asian Pacific fund. His careers combined education and law with an emphasis on student advocacy. Before attending law school, Jay was a public high school math teacher, he holds a BA from the University of Pennsylvania, a JD from Weidner University, and he's the proud father of two grown daughters. Hope you enjoy. Jay, you've been I said, this mentioned this in your bio briefly, but you've been thinking about standardized tests in one way or another for more than 30 years. So, Jake, my first question is, Why should students listen to you this guy when it comes to standardized testing, because Jay Rosner 2:31 I've been through the rigor? And I'll tell you what the rigor is, I testified as an expert witness, not on the LSAT but the LSAT, but I testified to see kind of the same themes and topics, and said many of the same things that I would have said about the SATs. I testified in federal court in Detroit, in 2001, at the trial of the Grutter case, which was the landmark University of Michigan Law School affirmative action case. And when you testify as an expert witness and an important case, something happens that's really unsettling. And that is, they take your deposition, where you sit in a conference room, with attorneys across the table, who can ask you any questions, say what, and you have to answer under oath. It was painful wasn't the word. It was excruciating? Because they didn't like me. And they were asking questions, trying to poke holes in everything I had to say. And I did that for eight hours. It was an entire, you know, three hours in the morning, and then we had lunch and like, four or five hours in the afternoon. So I think students should pay attention to what I have to say, because I've run the gauntlet for your students. I've taken the punishment. I've got the bruises, to support, my thinking, my deep thinking and my understanding of these issues, because they've been examined by people whom you really don't want, bothering you with a lot of questions. So let's go back. And Ethan Sawyer 4:23 folks who aren't interested in this, you can fast forward but I want to hear and I think other folks might be interested in what are the origins of the LSAT? The Jay Rosner 4:31 origins of the LSAT go back to 1926. Prior to 1926 there were people developing tests that purportedly measured mental capabilities of one sort or another Albert day, or is it Alfred Binay in France, develop tests that imagine this. Were designed to die We'd know students weaknesses, so that they can then be improved through education and instruction. That kind of testing morphed into the sa t, which was designed by Carl Brigham in 1926, to measure mental capabilities, and Brigham later denounced his own test, as not measuring things with specificity that were significant enough to consider in any educational context. And the developers of the LSAT these days, don't want you to know that the founder of the LSAT actually criticized the instrument several years later, but the instrument the LSAT, why went on and actually has the same disparate results these days that it did when it was initially designed in 1926. There are unfortunate disparities in test scores by race, ethnicity, and gender, that are designed in and built into the LSAT in ways that I've done some research to demonstrate. And the instrument is skewed and flawed and simply should not be used. But it has been, although its use clearly is diminishing, because test optional is now the status quo. J. Ethan Sawyer 6:40 So talk to me about how has testing changed in the last say, year or two. Jay Rosner 6:47 There have been some changes, the interesting thing is their changes in perception. And let me explain. And it's simplest to go back for a start four years ago, so that you can see where the last year fits. So four years ago in 2020 was COVID. There were 1000 colleges that were already test optional. And about 800 More give or take when test optional, because test administration's for the LSAT and ICT were being canceled. And those of those 800 were most of the schools that most people have heard of. So you have a situation where for about three years, in other words from 2020 to 2023. Those schools stay those new are test optional schools stayed test optional. And then it's about 2023, that you have a couple of schools reverting to requiring tests, in other words, going from test optional to being test required. And those schools were unusual in that they had different reasons. Georgetown, MIT, a few others, then within the last year, and in fact, within the last several months there, there have been five Ivy League schools five of the eight that have shifted from test optional back to require you to test now and a few others, the University of Texas, Austin and a couple of others, but of the so so there's this specific perception based on New York Times articles at Washington Post articles and both of those influential newspapers have editorialized in favor of colleges reverting to requiring the tests. There's this perception that there's this great movement back from test optional to requiring the test when in fact of those 800 schools in four years, there are about 15 School 15 colleges, only 15 colleges that have reverted. So what we have instead of the perception of moving back to requiring tests, I have friends emailing me all the time, friends who aren't involved in college admissions who say, what's going on with college admissions, everyone's going back to require the TAs and I have to explain to them Yep, 15 out of 800 is hardly everyone. In fact, it's a trickle. Now, what's going we're at the beginning of the time period, which exists over the next two or three months in which colleges were will announce what their application requirements are and their testing requirements are for this Fall for students who are applying to be admitted next September. And so the question is, what will happen to this trickle? Will it stop? Will it continue to be a trickle? Or will it be more than a trickle? And we will know that in the next two to three months, I shouldn't predict. But my prediction is perhaps another dozen schools with names that most people have heard of, we have maybe two does, will revert to require the test. So that's actually in the whole context of the situation, a slight increase in the trickle and not really a change. However, there's it's this perception nationally because of the press, that Yale and Dartmouth and brown were the first three. Then more recently, Harvard and Caltech got a lot of publicity. What didn't get much publicity as Cornell which just announced a couple of days ago. So you have five of the eight Ivy's, you have places like Caltech, and the University of Texas System, which are well known schools, not know much beyond that. Several more schools, but it's still a number that is slightly more than you can count on two hands. Jay, Ethan Sawyer 11:25 one of the things that I spent a lot of time thinking about I know you spend a lot of time thinking about is access and equity. Now, I know that there will be some counselors listening to this podcast who work primarily with students of color, wondering, What do I tell my students? And I don't want the takeaway to be well, it sounds like Jay and Ethan were saying, saying on the podcast that tests don't matter. And so I should tell my students to not take the test, because that's not necessarily true. Because I hold that. And I believe you hold that there are certain instances where the positive a great test score really does matter and can make a difference. What advice would you give to students or rather to counselors who primarily work with students Jay Rosner 12:02 of color? For counselors, I think, step one is to understand that tests are less important than when you were in college, applying to college. And test optional means that your students can apply to the very large majority of schools, colleges in this country without a test. However, for some students, a good test score will be very advantageous for some minoritized students, a good test score will be very advantageous. So some of the questions that I suggest the counselor as individual students are, number one, how do you feel about taking the test? If a good score might advantage you? Do you think you can do some test prep, and get ready to go in and get your best score and do that? And if and if a student says, yes, then there's a good reason to take the test, get a score, which a student can then choose to use or not use based on the student consulting you and getting advice as to whether it will be advantageous or not advantageous to us. If the student exhibits a disinclination to take the test, even when told that getting a good score might prove to that students benefit if the student says, Oh, I'd really really rather not do that, then it's likely that it would not be a good idea for that student to take the test. But let me posit something right in the middle. And that is a student who says I'm not sure I'm encouraged that student to take the test. Because there's no the obligation is to spend some time getting ready to take the test, and then to take the test. And there is a financial obligation to pay for the test, but their fee waivers avail. So the primary obligation is some time, but there's no obligation to use the score. So the student who seems positively inclined to try it, encourage them, the student who seems pretty negative, about thinking about taking the test. They're okay in this environment. But the student who's in doubt somewhere in the middle, I give them a little push to to take the test, see what happens and then have the choice to use their score or not Ethan Sawyer 14:49 cheap because what I'm hearing you say is like, what the student won't be spending as it were is the time but the potential upside could be huge. It could be A potential difference maker, right? One question I get from students a lot is wondering about is test optional, really test optional? Like, is it truly optional? Or is it one of those like optional, quote unquote essays where it's like, yeah, you should probably still write it. What's your sense? Jay Rosner 15:16 Having spoken to a lot of admissions officers, I think test optional is really test optional. In the large, large majority of cases. In some cases, you know, there, there probably are disadvantages to students not submitting test scores. But I think that, my sense there's no research on this that I know. But my sense is, that's a pretty small minority of situations, I think students can rely on the fact that in the large majority of cases test option was really test optional. There really is no disadvantage to not supplying a test score. Core, of course, there's an argument that if you have a very high test score, why not submit it, but in the era prior to COVID, with the 1004 year schools that were test optional, prior to COVID, there were great stories from admissions officers that I heard pretty regularly finding out that students had an AC t score of 34, or an LSAT score of 1450, or 1500, which are very high scores, that those students didn't submit an admissions to a test optional College, and the admissions officers later find out about that and asked the students, well, you had an excellent score, can I ask why you didn't submit it? And the students invariably say, I love the fact that you were going to consider me as a full human being, you're going to understand my full context, and that you weren't going to rely on a number. I love that. So I didn't want to give you the numbering. And have you not do that. And you got to love that story. A lot about Ethan Sawyer 17:04 what is your sense of how much standardized tests matter when it comes to admission officers reviewing the application? Jay Rosner 17:13 Well, not having been in the room where decisions are made. I just go by some stories that I've been told when students are being discussed in committee, and someone makes a comment. But look at that score. And that comment could be, it's lower than we really want, or it's really high, and we might want to defer to it. So that comes up. And even if someone hadn't told me that, as human beings sit around discussing applications, you would know that that topic would come up, and that it would probably come up in that way, on a semi regular basis. And so that's been confirmed for admissions officers to be. And so you can see the TAs can play, contest score, can play, if it's being considered can play as a positive or negative, depending on how it fits in the context of the student's story and application, and in what the college is looking for in its review process. So Ethan Sawyer 18:28 for students who are listening and wondering, should I take a standardized test? What advice would you give him? Who should take standardized tests? Jay Rosner 18:35 That's a very live question, a complicated question. The answer is it depends. But let me give you some of the factors that a student should consider. I think, as a practical matter, unless you're a student, like the like, the ones I described, to, don't want the number used at all, even if it's very, very good. If you have a test score, or let me back up, if you can get a test score, that would be in sort of the top half of the scores that are above of the scores that the college typically takes, and you can get the typically the 25th and 75th percentile scores of schools from them. It would seem to make sense in most cases, to submit that score. But the question is, do you want to go through the rigmarole to get that score? Do you want to do the kind of test prep that you should do to get your best score? And is that whole process worth it? When you could be spending the 5060 7080 hours that you might spend in a good essay good, solid, intensive SAP prep program, doing something else that's really worthwhile? out. So it's it's a weighing of an allocation of resources, you have to factor in parental attitudes. Because if your parents are pushing you to take the test so that you have a score to submit, it may take more energy to fight them off, than to actually do the test prep and get the score. So that's another thing that has to be be factored in. But for students who are disinclined to take the test, and have other strengths in their application, and are wondering whether they'll be fully considered in admissions by test optional schools, I would say, don't take the test. Go for it. If you're applying to a test free school, you're entirely wasting your time to take a test for that school, that that should be an active consideration. So it depends on the student's attitude toward testing. It depends on their environment, ie parental harassment in a positive way and not being in a negative way. And other factors. How selective school are you interested in? If you're interested in schools that are not particularly selective? That's a good argument not to bother with the test. So that's a that's a long answer, to just point out some of the factors that should go into that decision. Do I take a test and then do I to submit the test is, is an even trickier thing that you basically discuss with your counselor? For every school that you're applying to, Ethan Sawyer 21:43 right, say more? I'm gonna double click on that it might vary for certain schools. Why is that? Well, Jay Rosner 21:49 some schools just seem to or are specific about putting more emphasis on scores than others. For example, if you're applying to Georgetown, you have to give them a score. You know, this is another factor here, Ethan. And that is, we're now in the first era in the history of our higher educational system, where a student can develop a list of eight or 10 schools that they want to apply to. And every school on that list is either test optional or test free. Back before COVID. The common experience was a student would have a list of eight or 10 schools. And two of them were test optional, and six or eight of them weren't. And that student had to take the test to satisfy the requirements prior to those schools. If a student I advise students look at your lists, and if they're all test optional, and test tray, you really should give serious consideration to not bothering with with the test at all. What about for schools where Ethan Sawyer 22:55 test scores are sometimes tied to scholarships and financial aid? Unfortunate unfortunately, that's Jay Rosner 23:02 a really important situation. And so a student has to go beyond those eight or 10 schools as to whether their test optional admissions, and if the student needs financial aid, the student has to check out whether they're also test optional. In financial aid, a lot of schools are a lot of schools aren't, more and more schools are, but there's still schools that aren't. So that could make a difference. One of the frustrating things we've had working with Native American students is there are Native American Tribal scholarships that still require test scores. So those students will have an entire list of test optional schools, many of them and then have to take the test to satisfy you know, a scholarship entity that's that's really unfortunate. For students Ethan Sawyer 23:49 listening, wondering. And by the way, side note, will put a list of test optional and test free schools into the show notes for this podcast. And we'll keep it updated as that you know, changes from year to year. For students who are wondering, should I take the LSAT or AC T? What's a good way to find out? Jay Rosner 24:08 Well, the very best way to find out takes from three to six hours and that way and you can answer that question for yourself definitively without really any much debt without any doubt at all. And that is to take a full practice LSAT and a full practice ACG, which would be at this point six about six hours and you don't do it the same day. That would be crazy. And you don't even do it successive days. Maybe one Saturday, take a poll practice. So at one Saturday morning and next Saturday morning, a full practice a CT. Most students don't have to do that because they've already taken the PSAT which can serve as a practice LSAT for the so for those students. Just three hours to take a full practice a CT and then Compare the scores. And there are tables that are available to compare LSAT scores to AC T scores and see which is you know, with the with the two numbers, which is relatively higher. So you can determine on which test you did best through that actual test taking experience. And then you will know which test you should pursue. Now, there are a couple other considerations there a thing that I should mention. One is, for a lot of students, those scores will be pretty comparable. In other words, they'll be even or close to even close enough to even that you could choose either test at you know, Coke or Pepsi, it doesn't matter. However, there is another factor that should be considered. And that is how you feel about the test. Because what I suggest is students if they're taking a test, and that's a big if, and if students are taking a test, they should only do significant test prep for one test, don't do significant test prep for the AC T and then do it for the SAP that's nuts, pick one test and do significant test prep for that test. So if your scores are comparable, but you kind of just feel a little bit better about the AC t, then choose the AC t because you're gonna be looking at the AC t a lot in Test Prep. And you might as well be in a context where you feel a little more comfortable. Even if you perform comparably on the two couple other factors. If all your friends are taking the AC T and you might get it in a little study group for the AC t, you might take the AC t even though you did a little bit better on the SATs because you'll be in a more supportive environment. And then the final consideration is how convenient is the test set. If the LSAT is given in your school, and you have to drive 40 miles to take the A CT and that might not be convenient for you. That would also indicate that your fellow students are probably taking the LSAT. Maybe you should take the LSAT, even if you did a little bit better when you took your practice a CT so so those are some of the main considerations in making that choice. Ethan Sawyer 27:07 Do you feel like there are any benefits to be gained from preparing for the test beyond just raising my test score? In other words, do you feel like this is coming from my own background? Having taught testing? Do you feel like students can learn to become better thinkers, better readers, et cetera, et cetera, from prepping for the AC trs Jay Rosner 27:29 80, not better thinkers, better readers of essay T reading comprehension passages, better readers of AC T reading comprehension passages, better readers overall, perhaps, perhaps. But better at the specific tasks required by the SATs and AC T I have two analogies that I love to use. Let me let me spring them on you quickly. Taking the SATs, you're taking the AC t as a performance. People think of it as a sort of a mental exercise. It's much more than that. It's a physical, there's a physical component because you have to be performing optimally and our shrink that takes energy and a moderately good physical conditioning, that if you don't have your score is going into the tank an hour. It's rigged. So there are other factors involved in the LSAT and a CT that make it a performance. And the analogies that I use is I say to students consider an artistic performance if you're a singer, dancer, musician, if you're an actor. What do you do to perfect that performance? Because you want if you're a performer of integrity, you want to give your best possible performance. Well, you rehearse and you rehearse intensively, and you are hearse for a while. Rehearsal isn't the night before, it's weeks, maybe months. And that's what you need to do to optimize your performance on the SATs. Chasity. It's completely analogous. Another analogy that I like to use, because I think a lot of students understand performing arts and can use that pretty effectively. But a lot of students understand sports. So if you're an athlete or a sports fan, you know that in order for athletes to give the best possible performance and athletes with integrity wants to do that. They do a couple things. They practice and they train and they don't practice and train the night before a couple days before this is again weeks and months. And they do it with discipline. And they do it rigorously. And they try to practice behaviors and performances that are very similar to what their actual, what they will face in their actual game or match or meat. And so test prep becomes equivalent to the practice or training that an athlete would do to give an optimal performance. And, by the same token, if it athletes short cuts, their their practice or training, they're not going to give their best performance. And I say to students, if you shortcut, a good fit or a CT prep, you're not going to get your best score, you're not going to give your AC T best AC T race, sad performance. That's just the way human beings work. And you can try to deny that reality. But if you understand that reality in the artistic performance and athletic performance realm, you'll have a better understanding of how that really works with SATs and AC T prep. Ethan Sawyer 30:47 So I want to double click on that, let's talk ideal training regiment. So if you had to design it as a, we can keep the metaphor leave it, you know, the timeline for students? What does that look like? And how many practice tests should it involve? Jay Rosner 31:03 Oh, I have, I have a very clear recipe for that, Oh, you got a third one? Great. My recipe is for most students, to do a thorough and intensive LSAT or a CT prep, it's an hour and a half a day, five to six days per week, because I believe in a day of rest. And I always say to students, you're welcome. For five to six weeks, right before the test. Now a lot of students and type a students and type a parents have students prepping for a year, two years, the way to think about it is that the most valuable prep time before the SATs, your AC T or is the three weeks right before the test. Because anything you learn or do any performance aspect that you perfect in that time, you're most likely to be able to perform three weeks later. The next most important time period is the three weeks before that, where what you do and what you learn and the performance aspects you perfect, you're probably going to be able to do within five or six weeks after that a year before the test, what performance behavior, whatever are you going to be able to do a year later, without at doing it every day for a year or almost every day for years. So the the early crazy, LSAT or AC T prep is nuts. However, there are some long term things you can do vocabulary and strength of reading, you can do before six weeks before the test, you want to do stuff six months before the test, work on your vocabulary, learn 678 LSAT type words a day and their lists of those to the kind of reading in a discipline way that's at the level that's tested on the SATs or AC T and there are ways to do that. And if you do those things, you'll actually improve your reading and improve your vocabulary. So those are good things to do anyway, and they will benefit you on the test. So I advocate for certain long term SATs and AC T preparation factors like those things by not doing bubble questions six months ahead of the test. That seems to me to be just not a fit, not efficient at all. Talk Ethan Sawyer 33:39 to us about accommodations, what are they who gets them, et cetera? Jay Rosner 33:43 You know, I try not to get too involved in accommodations because I think so a degree of medical expertise, which I don't have is required, but there are a couple of watchwords about accommodations. Number one, if you're think you need or want accommodations start very early, four or five months before the test, start investigating it. Typically you have to do some medical submissions from doctors to warrant accommodations, the most common accommodation is extra time. Just make sure you take enough time to do that. Consult with your counselor, get the medical advice and the kind of reports you need and start the process early. You know and also if students have their own individual plans at their schools, for accommodations if they got accommodation in their high school testing that helps, but I don't I don't go deeply into that realm because I don't have the medical background to really be able to advise beyond that kind of surface practical advice that I do give. You talked Ethan Sawyer 34:59 about this breed briefly, but I just wanted to underscore to this particular way, because sometimes students will ask a question, what is a good score, quote unquote? And I think what they're asking oftentimes is like, should I submit X score, but maybe just give some practical guidelines of and you get, you've kind of already done this, but give us some practical guidelines of what would you say to a student who asks, What is a quote unquote, good score? Jay Rosner 35:24 I would rather reframe the question to be what is your best score? Are you interested in what your best score? Because you if you are, I can answer that question and question about your best score is take a full practice test. Under Test Conditions, a full LSAT, or AC T, see what score you get. And then tell me the kind of prep that you're going to do before the official test. And I can give you a range of what your path best score is likely to be. So rather than discussing it, theoretically, if you're willing to spend three hours, we can discuss it with real information, we can then have informed discussion. And we can even do that with a PSAT score, assuming that you gave your best effort. So a student's best score will be the potential that they have to get their best score is some increment over what that first practice test score is. And we can make some estimates about that increment, depending upon what kind of test prep that that student is willing to do? Well, because Ethan Sawyer 36:35 they won't be able to ask you later, I'm going to pretend to be a student and say, well, Jay, I got an 1190, on my practice tests under test conditions, and I'm going to, I'm going to do half of your plan, you have this great plan, but I just don't think I can do it I work I've just got too much to do, I can probably do 45 minutes, maybe for five weeks or so. Because I'm taking about a month and a half, What are my chances of getting a 1500 Zero Jay Rosner 37:01 from assuming assuming you did your best on the test, on the on the practice test, your chances of what your realistic chances are getting up into the 1200s, mid 1200s, maybe a little higher, and your chances would be better if you were if you know, you would you would have a real shot at 1300. If you did the full test prep, not a guarantee, and not a likelihood. But a real shot. How do Ethan Sawyer 37:31 average test scores from a student's individual High School factor into whether or not they should submit so say for instance, there's a student who goes to a rural high school limited resources, no student maybe has ever passed an AP exam. And for those who don't know, that would be like scoring a three. And they're the first to do it. For selective schools. Is it wise potentially for a student to consider submitting that score, even if it's not a four or a five? Yes, Jay Rosner 38:00 and it would seem to me that the analogy for the PSAT and a CT would hold If your score is among the very highest in your school. Even if that score is not ultra high in your state or country because of the nature of your school, it would seem advantageous to point that out to the admissions office. Now, the irony is the admissions office probably configure that out, and has a sense of that. Because they have a sense, they get school reports. They know what the ranges are in lots of different high schools, and part of the art of admissions, and one of the things that admissions officers learn is to have a good sense of that. So I think in many cases, the admissions officers would figure that out, but there's certainly no harm. Yeah, assuming that they they see the score. Of course, if you don't submit the score, they can't figure that out. But assuming they see the score, I think most time they'll figure that out. But there would be no harm whatsoever in a student pointing out that by the way, I've managed to get one of the better scores in my high school. Yeah, Ethan Sawyer 39:16 I want to give a quick example of that. There was a student that I worked with, who was an undocumented student I worked with him years ago. And he noted in his Additional Information section, and I'm going to read it to you here. And then I'm just going to will follow up in the show notes. So you can see the way this was written in PA two notes about testing. Now, part of the reason why he put this in is that his counselor, he wasn't sure his counselor was going to note this, and I don't even think he was gonna get a counselor recommendation letter. So he noted very simply in his Additional Information section and by the way, this is just a section of your application where you can put just like it sounds additional information. And he said, AP Physics one he said I was the first dude in my school to ever pass the AP Physics one exam. And then on the next line, he said there were two issues during that Just the test started late because the previous test ran long. And two during the AP Physics one exam, the fire alarms went off and continued for about an hour. She said, he said, unfortunately, this is the only time that test was offered. And I was nonetheless proud of my score. The other thing he noted was that he had the highest LSAT score in his class. So he scored, you know, a third, what would be the equivalent of a 1310. And, you know, for the selective schools that he was applying to, someone might look at a 1310 and be like, okay, you know, middle range, but this was the highest score in his entire grade. And he, I don't know exactly how he knew this, but he knew this, and he noted it. And so to students who are thinking, Is it okay, quote, unquote, to say that, whether you're a domestic student, you're not sure if your counselors would note something like this, you can advocate for yourself, you can put that on. Same thing for international students. I've worked with international students before, who've gone to great lengths just to get a chance to take the test. And I just want to encourage you if you've had to travel, for example, by bus to another city to go do this. And this is something that is I think, worth noting, because to your point earlier, Jaya, that context is just so important. Jay Rosner 41:05 Yes. And, you know, for some communities of applicants, that would be considered bragging and distasteful. And of course, what counselors need to do is convinced students if they can, that that is context that enables the admissions officer to better understand what your situation is, and where you fit in the universe, and who you are. And so, so the kind of, you know, boastful bragging, a disincentive that some students may have to express that needs to be addressed. And hopefully students can find ways to express that. That doesn't seem to them distasteful, Ethan Sawyer 41:55 right? It's not only okay, it's actually a good thing. And the framing that I'll often use is like your job with the application is to give the reader enough information for them to make an informed decision on your candidacy. And if this information is helping to inform them about your application, or the numbers they're saying, then I think it's okay to include. Jay, why does some folks find standardized testing to be problematic? Jay Rosner 42:22 How much time do you have to? Well, it starts from the fact that the tests are skewed and flawed and misused and given much too much weight. And they're proxies for experience, rather than experience. The analogy that I love is standardized tests are like free throw, shooting, and basketball, free throw shooting is that involves basketball skill, but it's a limited skill. It's done in this sort of unusual context where everything stops, and somebody stands at a free throw line and has an unimpeded shot at the basket. That's not Basketball, basketball is five players, constant motion things happening all the time. That's basketball, free throw shooting is this bizarre little thing that happens in the game that often affects the game, but it's very different from the game and to iView testing the same way. Academia involves all kinds of courses and teachers and discussions and interactions that are complex and dynamic and involve a lot of moving parts. That's another thing about basketball, game basketball, a lot of moving parts for different shooting, almost no moving parts. Same thing with testing, almost no moving parts, isolated individual doing this thing that's supposed to relate to the larger, complex dynamic. It's test taking a static free throw shooting is static, academia's dynamic basketball is dynamic. How can a static situation reflect significantly on a dynamic situation? It just doesn't compute. But we do standardized testing, because it's cheap. Well, it's cheap for the colleges. It's lots of cheap for the students. But it's cheap, and it generates a number that folks think, is meaningful. And we proved in the unit we colleagues saw guys approved in the University of California situation, that test scores just really reflect socio economic status. They reflect family income, wealth and parental education. So you could use those things instead of test scores and not bother with tests if you want it to be honest and straightforward about the situation. So those are some of the many problems of the tests but I think Some of the main ones. Ethan Sawyer 45:00 Jay, what do you want to leave students and counselors with? When it comes to standardized testing? What do you want them to know? Jay Rosner 45:08 I want students and counselors to be very skeptical of the tests, skeptical of everything they hear about the tests. Understand that one of the really significant factors. And what we've seen over the last couple of years is 800. Schools, including, as I said, just about every school you can name. When test optional, every I should say, every selective and highly selective school you should make when test obsolete as a result of COVID. And they're not going back, just a couple of them are going back. And there will be a few more, but it's a trickle. And what that should tell you is the kind of skepticism that they have about the test is sticking. And they're willing to go forward with a structural factor of saying we're test optional. You don't have to give us a score if you don't want to. They're comfortable with doing that. And they're comfortable with the classes they're selecting. And the students that say that they're selecting that process. In fact, many of them are boasting that they're getting better, more diverse classes as a result. So I want students and adults and everyone in education to feel that, you know, the tectonic shift that has occurred with testing. That's best exemplified by the fact that almost no schools that have gone test optional, have reverted back to requiring the tests coach. Che Ethan Sawyer 47:01 thanks so much for your time. Thanks, friends, for listening reminder that in the shownotes, you'll find not only links to some of the things that Jay and I discussed, but an accompanying crash course on standardized testing blog with tons of lengths to answer pretty much all the questions you would have about testing. You'll also find in there a link to a session I did with Jed Apple, Ruth of Apple roots tutoring that has a really great, robust and yet succinct summary of all of the updates to the digital LSAT. If you haven't checked out our YouTube channel, I recommend it. It's got hundreds of videos on college admissions and essays and we release content regularly. Just search college essay guy on YouTube and as the kids like to say, smash that like button. See you soon and stay curious Transcribed by https://otter.ai
