609: Admission Nutrients (Part 3 of 6: Leadership): Important Ingredients for a Well-Balanced College Admission Process—And Life

The College Essay Guy - Episode 609 - Deanna Dixon_otter_ai

The College Essay Guy - Episode 608 - Deanna Dixon

Wed, Apr 30, 2025 8:43AM 54:50

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

College admissions, leadership qualities, initiative, Smith College, Deanna Dixon, decision maker, cultural competency, academic excellence, student involvement, mental health, AI in essays, equity, college fit, personal growth, college essays.

SPEAKERS

Ethan Sawyer, Deanna Dixon

E

Ethan Sawyer 00:00

Tom, hey friends and welcome back to the podcast. So what you're listening to is episode three in our admission nutrients series. So quick context, if you haven't heard the earlier episodes last year, my colleague Tom and I spent some time analyzing hundreds of college websites to find out what exactly our college is looking for. We boiled it down to a set of what we call nutrients. Now, these are qualities that are important for a healthy college admission process, but guess what? They're also healthy we believe, for a well lived, meaningful life. On this episode, we're delving into the qualities of leadership and initiative, and my guest is Deanna Dixon, the Dean of admission at Smith College. In our conversation, we get into a bunch of things, including some of the qualities that Smith looks for when they're evaluating applicants. We talk about how their particular supplemental essay points to the college's institutional priorities and what those are. In short, how can we know what they're looking for in an applicant based on what the essay is asking for? Then we talk about why leadership and initiative are important from Smith's perspective, what Deanna thinks about chat GPT, how she feels like the profession is doing when it comes to equity and leveling the playing field, and then she offers some great advice for students and families who are going through this process. Deanna has worked in college admissions since 2006 and currently serves as dean of admission at Smith. As a women's college graduate, she's maintained a deep commitment to women's education and college attainment for marginalized students in general, a parent of a college senior, Deanna, appreciates the dedication of college counselors and the shared partnership of matching students to the best school for them. Deanna has a bachelor's degree from Smith College and a master's degree in business administration from the Olin School of Business at Washington University in St Louis. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Hi, Deanna, welcome to the podcast.

Deanna Dixon 02:11

D

Well, hello. Thank you so much for having me. I'd love folks

E

Ethan Sawyer 02:15

to get to know what you do a little bit. And I sent you this list of roles and identities, which is from a separate exercise that we sometimes skip to students. But I'd love for you to just maybe pick a few of these roles and give us a sense, because a lot of folks don't know what a dean of admission actually does. So what are some roles that you play as dean of admission at Smith? Yeah,

D

Deanna Dixon 02:37

I think the first word that resonated with me when I looked at this long list words that really could describe what I do. The first word is, which, technically is. Two words is decision maker. You know, I think day to day, I am making some kind of decision. Clearly, just by the nature of the my title dean of admission, one of my biggest decision making opportunities is to work on or work with a team of people to decide who's being admitted. Right decide, you know, whatever the admission decisions are. But even outside of that, it is, you know, strategic decisions. It is, you know, I just helped someone today with making a decision based on our Admitted Student Program. So decision maker resonates probably the most after that. I mean, I think I'm gonna, I have a I have two words that I'm combining, because I think they go together. You have them separate as leader and also learner. And I think that they're what they they go together. So I think in my role as leader, you know, being dean of admission, I barely lead an office. I am, you know, considered a leader on campus. But I also see myself in many ways, as a learner. I am open to learning, you know about the things that I don't know, but also learning, you know, different ways of thinking. I'm learning from my team. I'm learning from my my bosses all the time. And I think learning makes you a better, leaner leader. So I think I'm I read the two of those words as coming together, and then, you know, this is going to probably surprise you, but this does. This is one of the ways that I don't know that I would use this word, but it describes what it is, is I as a validator. And the way I see that is, I feel like and I don't like this in my personal life, I'm the my I have a daughter who's 22 graduating from college this year, gay, and I feel like my role as validator kind of spans my work life and my personal life. I feel like people need to be validated in you know, decisions that they are making, you know, things that they are thinking about. And I feel like a lot of what I do is validating others.


E

Ethan Sawyer 04:59

So. You mentioned that you are the decision maker and one of the decision makers in terms of sending out acceptances to students. I know that you've just because we talked about this, whenever last week or the week before, you've just sent out acceptances, you're hearing back from students right now, assembling the class is what sometimes we call this. What does that work look like this week, and just for folks who are listening, we're recording this in between when acceptances were set out and when students have to decide which is usually may 1 at many campuses. So what's what does life look like take us behind the scenes at Smith?

Deanna Dixon 05:37

D

Well, one thing that's really big in our work that's a little bit beyond the big bulk of decisions that you're referring to, is our transfer admission process. So we, after we finished our regular decision, we moved right into it, kind of is an overlap, a little bit, moved into the transfer process. And I'll include in that we have a program called the ADA Comstock Scholar Program, which essentially is a transfer program for the non traditional age students. So they kind of go together, but they're, they're treated a little separately, but going into that process, and so we are just really finishing that this particular week. So in, in, you know, in some sense that work hasn't really ended yet and will about to end. So the other piece that's really behind the scenes, and this will also be related to the transfer process when we get to that point, is talking about our yield programs in the month of April, which is, which is where we are now. So, you know, we have a couple of opportunities for admitted students and families to come, you know, visit Smith and check us out. And there is a lot of work. There's a team of folks who work specifically for those programs, but they require, you know, a lot of support in, you know, making sure that those programs are executed properly, and the way that we want and that, you know, our students and families are, are happy when they're here and they leave happy. So a lot of work goes into that. So that has been a big part of the behind the scenes, and that also that's where kind of the decision making, as I referred to earlier, comes into play. Also problem solving kind of relates to to decision making. We also, as part of that, have, you know, we have our on campus programs, but we also have a virtual admitted student program component. So part of me, what I'm doing specifically is, you know, I am moderating a panel, virtual panel tomorrow, of faculty to talk about our open curriculum. So a lot of the behind the scenes is really kind of preparing for the big, you know, enrollment piece that finishes the actual admission cycle. So of course, with this cycle, you know, the overlap is also with, you know, also beginning to recruit again. So, you know, the recruitment cycle kind of overlaps with the, you know, the end of the reading and yield cycle. So all of that is is happening now for folks

E

Ethan Sawyer 08:10

who are listening and may not know what yield is or understand it, will you just give us a quick definition for what yield is and say why it's important to colleges? Yeah,

D

Deanna Dixon 08:18

yeah. So, so yield is essentially, you know, we've admitted students, and we hope that, you know, the students that we admit will want to come, and that's essentially what what yield is. It's like, how many of the students that we admitted are choosing to to enroll. So, you know, we, you know, you'll hear yield rates. And this is the concept of yield, yield season. I mean, that's the time that, you know we are, you know, it's like things are in the the students are now in the driver's seat, right? Because we, we've, we've admitted them, and we have said we, we love you, we want you to choose us. And now they, you know, now they say, Okay, well, let me think about it, right? And and because

Ethan Sawyer 09:01

E

students may not know this part of parents may not know, why is yield so important from a college perspective, like, say, a college accepts, I'll just pick a number, 100 students. It's not 100 why is it important that, as many of those students say, Yes, like, how does that? How does that go from the college perspective?

D

Deanna Dixon 09:19

Well, it ensures that we have a class, right? And so, you know, each class right? The Class of, you know, 25 right is graduating, you know, in May. So yield is what determines that we have, you know, the we are meeting the enrollment goals of the college, and that we have a class that we are going to welcome to Campus. You know, come to, you know, come fall. And that's why, that's why yield is so important, because the college is depending on the admission office to, you know, to have a class of students, for our faculty to teach, and for, you know, for Smith to, you know, create community around so, yeah, that's, that's why. That's why yield is so important.

E

Ethan Sawyer 10:01

Great. So last year, there was a separate podcast series that we did on what colleges are looking for. And one of the qualities that colleges look for is something called positive character attributes, which is kind of a broad, vague term. I'd be curious. I'd love for you to take us behind the scenes a little bit at Smith. What are some of these quote, unquote, positive character attributes that Smith is looking for? Maybe give us a little behind the scenes of how Smith reviews students. I'll

Deanna Dixon 10:29

D

talk about three things, actually, and I think, you know, a couple of those things will speak directly to that question. I can't, you know answer kind of what Smith is looking for, without acknowledging academic excellence, right, which may not be directly tied to what your question is, but first and foremost, I mean, we are looking for students who have in their high school curriculum, have you know, shown that they will be able to come into a rigorous classroom that that Smith has, and be able to handle the academic work, and they're able to contribute to the classroom and all of the things that are academic. So academic excellence, you know, for us is, you know, really this combination of rigor and achievement. So our students, you know, taking a rigorous set of classes that are available to them in their high school. And what kind of achievement have they? Have they shown in those classes? The other two things, one, the first of the two other things that are important to us is how involved the student is. So we value that students are involved in whatever their life is outside of the classroom. So it could be things that they are doing in their residential community. It could be their activities in, you know, a church, a temple or a synagogue, that kind of activity. It could be that they are responsible for taking care of younger siblings, and they have a lot of household responsibilities. What that is telling us about a student, in addition to things that they might do, you know, what you think of as extracurricular activities, so clubs and organizations and things that they might belong to is that tells us about what kind of community member they're going to be at Smith. So we want to, you know, just have an idea of how likely you are to engage in in community here. And then the other thing that may get more to what you're talking about within your question, is we are looking for, or what we'd like to get a sense of, is, I'm just going to kind of describe it as cultural competency, and what I what I mean by that is, or let me kind of describe why that's important. It's important for us, in particular because we have a housing system, or residential life at Smith that, you know, we have students who live in, you know, what we call houses. They're not dorms, your typical dorms. So we, what's important to us is that you are a good house member and you're a good roommate. So we are a campus, a diverse campus, so we want to get a sense of how well you would engage with people who are different from you. So that's what I talk about, kind of this cultural competency. How interested are you in exploring some of these differences? And can you, you know, do you have the capacity to engage in a conversation that shows that you are, you know, interested in exploring what some of those differences might be? So I think that's important to, you know, be a part of the Smith community.


E

Ethan Sawyer 13:46

Yeah, it seems to me that, like, it's pretty clear that academic excellence, you know, in terms of rigor and achievement, is going to show up on a student's GPA, maybe also in their recommendation letters, the student involvement is going to show up in the activities list, maybe a little bit in their essays, maybe in the rec letters. Where does when Smith is evaluating, where does the admission reader? What do the admission readers look for, cultural competency? Like, where does that show up in an application?

Deanna Dixon 14:17

D

That's a very good question. It shows up there. I'll it shows up throughout the application in different ways, right? It certainly does show up in, say, a recommendation, depending on the student. Obviously, it does show up in a list of extracurriculars. But we also ask a question on our application, which is our I know you might think of it as a supplement question. You know it's, it's actually a member question. You know of the common app, although you know this question is also part of our application platforms, on the coalition application as well, but it essentially puts students, puts applicants in kind of our housing environment. It describes what's important to us. In our housing community, and asks them, essentially, what would you contribute to a house community, and what would you take away from the house community? So it just the intention of the question is to get at, you know, this type of answer. And it's interesting, the type of responses we get. I mean, some some responses don't exist. And you know, it's actually a hard question to answer. It. It takes some thought. And so it's not a question that you probably could have prepared for another school. So it's not a, it's not like a why Smith question, but it is very Smith specific. And I think you a student might have to do a little bit of self reflection in order to answer the question. So we get a variety of answers. We get a lot of answers to that question that relate to food. And you know, kind of the cultural significance of what a particular food, or food in general, might mean for that student. It might be a reflection of how that food is kind of connects them to, like the grandparents. I mean, you know that that kind of thing? So, so the answers to the question might not directly say, this is how I'm showing cultural competency, right? So it is, it is up to the reader to interpret some of the things, including, say, this food answer, and what does it mean for a student to talk about, you know, their connection to this particular food, and how you know, culturally, there's, there's a connection. It could be, you know, somebody who talks about how religion is important to them, and how, you know, they're bringing that to the house community. So it really can be up to the reader to to interpret what we're what we're reading. And then, of course, there are some students that that really, it seems like they don't have, you know, a lot to offer that answer to that answer. But I will say, even for those students, this is just one element of the application. So, so even say a quote, unquote bad answer to that question is, is, is? You know, it's not going to ruin somebody's chances.

E

Ethan Sawyer 17:07

Great. Yeah, I want to, and I want to for folks who are listening and who aren't familiar with this prompt, as many folks won't be, I'm going to read it out loud. And by the way, whoever's listening know that this is not necessarily the prompt. Could change. Prompts change from year to year. So if your wish, listen to this in the future. You to this in a future year, just make sure you check the common app or check the Smith website to make sure it's still the prompt. But it goes, Smith has a unique housing system where students of all class years live together in 41 different houses with our residential curriculum, students will become critically aware global neighbors exploring their self identity by living in community, engaging in reflection and challenging their own beliefs. What personal experiences, background or abilities Would would you bring to this residential environment to share with your neighbors, and what would you hope your neighbors would share with you? Now you've already hinted a little bit at you know, how this connects to what Smith is looking for, and I'd love to just look at it through the lens of institutional priorities. So for those who are listening, institutional priorities are like specific things that a college is looking for, broadly speaking, how does this question point to Smith's institutional priorities, and how does it give us some clues about you know what those are, and how does it help Smith decide if a student's going to be a particular fit for for the college? Yeah.

Deanna Dixon 18:28

D

Okay, so I'm kind of hearing maybe two questions there, totally. Let's see which, which one did I want to address first, maybe, maybe the Fit piece and, and I think I do want to kind of take a little aside, I guess, and talk about this concept of fit. Because, you know, we hear about, you know, fit a lot. I mean, we use it. Smith uses it, you know, Smith fit or fit with, you know, we tell students to think about, you know, their fit. I just want to acknowledge that sometimes there are negative connotations with with the word fit and and it could maybe be perceived as, you know, meaning that we are looking for, for students who, who are fitting in, which could be interpreted as really exclusive, instead of, you know, inclusive, When fit really just means that, you know, are there, are there things about, is there a match there, that, from the student point of view, are there things about this school that that make you feel like you can thrive there? You know, it's the school meeting all the things that are important to you. And I think, I think thriving is, is, is a big, is a big piece of that so, so for us, from the Smith perspective, fit, I think can be more aligned with, you know, kind of the context of our mission, which you know, in briefly, would be to educate women of promise for lives of lives of distinction and purpose. Yeah, so, you know, how are we? How are we, you know, reading an application or learning about a student that can help further our mission, right? That they have. That's how they fit, right? They they are. They are, you know, yeah, help, helping us, us. You know, further, further our mission as it relates to that house community, which is where that question, you know, is, is, is talking about, and again, it just kind of talks about engaging with as it related, as it relates to mission, engaging in these complex conversations, those that can, you know, test one's tolerance for difference, right, in a global sense. So that would fit, you know, our mission of, you know, educating women of promise, that could be academic promise, that could be really a leadership promise, right? Students who have, who have shown leadership, and certainly for lives of distinction and purpose, and how we get there, or how we CO, you know, have a community that moves the mission forward is that, you know, those are things that are important to be, you know, a full citizen of the world, right, being able to relate to others, engage in these complex conversations, and be able to learn from each other. So, so that is, that's kind of that, that fit piece in terms of how we, you know, kind of using these, these questions to get to that. The other thing that you had asked about was institutional priorities. And I mean for us, I mean, one of our institutional priorities, really, for a long time, has been to, you know, maintain and grow diversity on campus, and diversity in this sense, is really broad, so I certainly do mean racial and ethnic diversity, but I also mean socio economic diversity, geographic diversity, religious diversity, diversity of thought, right? So all things that are you know, under, under the what you might call diversity. And you know, for us, it's like, you know, the more people who gather or who are in our community who are different from one another in any any aspect, the more we can learn. You know, the more insights that we can gain, that we can grow in our perspective, learn different perspectives, because that is the value of of living and learning with a diverse, you know, group of people.


E

Ethan Sawyer 22:54

I'd love to talk a little bit about leadership and initiative, and why is that important? From Smith's perspective, when evaluating applicants,

D

Deanna Dixon 23:07

I think you have to, again, not exactly going back to Mission, but I am going to, you know, refer to Smith as a women's college and as a women's college, you know, we are, you know, certainly mindful of, you know, where women were not included, right? So we are. We are writing a wrong, historical wrong, by educating women. And as a matter of fact, Smith was founded. Is Smith? What Sophia Smith wanted was to give women an education that was on par with what men were getting at that time. So education wise women were in were not included in spaces where, say, an educated man would be so if you take that, that idea of how Smith was founded, of course, leadership would follow, right? Because, you know, we still need women leaders, and there are still spaces where, you know, there is a lack of women leadership. So, you know, based on kind of, the type of institution that Smith is, of course, it is like a natural progression that not only are we educating women, but we are also inspiring leadership. And kind of, you know, giving opportunities to develop leadership. So that's, that is the crux, I think, of why leadership is important for us.

Ethan Sawyer 24:30

E

I'd be curious to hear, based on the, you know, applications you've seen over the years, are there any interesting or unconventional examples that you've seen of students taking leadership? Because I, I think sometimes students think of it as, like, you know, I have to be president of this club or president of the student body, and there's sort of like, leadership means X. I wonder if you could just give some examples of what leadership has looked like over the years when, you know from the high school student perspective, yeah, yeah. And

D

Deanna Dixon 24:57

those things are true. So the. Yes, that we that we think of, you know, the the president of the club or the team captain. I mean, those things that kind of say leadership. They have leadership in the name those things are important. But we also see leadership in some of the things that some students have done. For example, I think I've seen this a couple of times, where students will say, I was so mad about the student the dress code at my school that I, you know, changed it. But how did, and how did they, how did they change it? They had to figure out how to, you know, get some support from that and talk to the right people and, you know, lo and behold, the dress code then changes. That's leadership on a high school level, on any level, actually, if you take somebody who finds something that they're uncomfortable with and they, you know, take the actions to change said thing, I mean that that is leadership. We do see that kind of activity on the high school level. We see, you know, I'm going to mention scouts. I'm saying Scouts, Girl Scouts are, you know, still in existence. But scouts, right? Because, you know, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts are kind of, you know, in some areas together. But I think we see leadership in in Girl Scouts. Students who have, you know, gone on to get their gold award. I mean, that is showing leadership to us, that not everybody has the opportunity or has the experience of of being a girl scout. The other place where we see it is we see students who are actively involved in political campaigns. So they're, they're volunteering in those areas. So to us, it is, again, an example of, you know, kind of going after some something that's important to you, and you're, you're taking an action step to work towards, you know, some kind of change that you're looking for. And then there is, maybe along the same lines, is social justice leadership. I mean, we have, you know, many students in our applicant pool who, again, are righting a wrong, and they are active, you know, well, activists. They're they're social justice activists and and we see that on the high school level in many of our of our applications, too. So those are a little bit of of what we see outside of what you can clearly see as leadership in the title of a captain or president and so

E

Ethan Sawyer 27:21

forth. Yeah, love that. Love what you're sharing. So I'd love to pivot for just a second to talking about leadership, because, as you know, we ran this big analysis of what colleges are looking for. We looked at hundreds of websites and synthesized and found that leadership and initiative is something that a lot of colleges look for in the application. Why is leadership and initiative important? From Smith's perspective, for

Deanna Dixon 27:46

D

Smith in particular, I think leadership shows up in in lots of ways. One way I mentioned the house, our house system earlier, that is actually one way that leadership does show up. Our houses have leadership roles in them. So our houses are self governed, so there's opportunities for students to develop leadership skills by taking on roles just right in their house community. So this is kind of beyond what might be more, more campus wide. So in that case, you know, I would say students here, they live leadership. We also will more, more or less include students, pretty much in everything that we do. So if we have a committee of sorts, including, like a hiring committee even, I mean things that are really at a senior level, there typically is a student that is sitting on the committee as well. I'm thinking of a committee that I'm on right now. I sit on what's called the campus use planning group. There is a student that that is that is sitting on on that committee. So we actively put students, or give students, an opportunity to make some broader decisions that are impacting others on campus. So, so, you know, I would say that, you know, at Smith, students, you know, really kind of live leadership. I would also say that here students learn leadership. So we have, you know, opportunities through, you know, that are kind of co curricular. We have a, what's called the The Wordle Center for Leadership, that where leadership is right in the name right, that really has a curriculum that that teaches leadership, or leadership things that fall under leadership, like team building, right, kind of, you know, navigating conflicts on on a team. I mean, those are examples of some of the things that our word Wordle center is, is teaching, I would say, not only students, but just the community, because faculty and staff can, I can, can benefit from that as well. But that center also offers, you know, instruction on public speaking, so thinking of, you know, kind of the public voice as a form of leadership. So that's, you know, kind of, you know, how we're how we're teaching. Leadership, and I can't, I can't, kind of finish this answer without recognizing that we model leadership so so at a women's college, Smith in particular. I mean, not every higher role is held by a woman, but many are. So our president is a woman. You know, many of our on our President's team or vice president level are women. I mean, the dean of admissions a woman. That's me.

E

Ethan Sawyer 30:38

I mean, for example.

D

Deanna Dixon 30:41

So my point is that you know, you see it around you, right? So when you're here, it's like, you know you don't, you are not in an environment where you think you can't do because you're seeing it done. And that, just in and of itself, is, you know, I don't know. It's a great place to be just to just to see that modeled, because when you you know, when you see it, you can be it, and then that's, that's what it is.


E

Ethan Sawyer 31:06

I'd be curious to know, over the years, what have you seen shift in terms of what students are writing about in their college essays, you know? And I'll give you an example. Years ago, it seemed like, especially before COVID, there was a lot, there were a lot there were a lot of mission trip essays, a lot of people writing about mission trips and doing that, and then COVID hit, and nobody was going on mission trips. And I haven't seen a huge resurgence in that. But I'd just be curious in terms of what you see students writing about in their personal statements, you know, maybe what's, yeah, what's, what's changed?

Deanna Dixon 31:37

D

Deanna Dixon 31:37

That's interesting, because I would agree, I'm not seeing a lot of mission, mission, trip answers. But I also wonder, it almost feels like our students who are applying to Smith might be digging little deeper. Of course, if they're looking at if they're applying to the common app, then other schools would have similar answers, right? Because, you know, everybody's getting kind of the same, the same answer. I think, generally speaking, students are really interested in telling us about their personal growth. And I say that because I we read a lot about students mental health. And you know, of course, there might be some connection to the pandemic related to that. But I think students are, you know, they want to be open about their mental health challenges and how they've overcome them, or are continuing to to overcome them. And they're and they're telling they're telling us that, and I think it's important to them to tell us that. And so I think that's changed, yeah,

E

Ethan Sawyer 32:41

and I'd love to stay on that for a minute, because this is something that I've heard from other, you know, Dean's directors of admission, that there's a lot, there are a lot more students writing about, for instance, anxiety and mental health. What have you seen, you know, work well, when it comes to students writing about mental health challenges, what have you seen work less well?

D

Deanna Dixon 33:03

I think what works well is a student who, if they want to, you know, tell us that that kind of information because, you know, some might might feel it that's also very personal and private. But I think what, what, what works well is for students to tell us how they are thriving, how they are and I'm saying I'm not, I'm not trying to put the their anxiety, or whatever the issue is. I'm not trying to put it in the past, right? Because there are some things that maybe someone has recovered from, right, or they're recovering, and maybe that's it. It's it's recovering. And what it what is a student doing to recover? How are they helping themselves? What resources have they taken advantage of to to help them? Because I think ultimately, what we're what we're looking at through this essay is, can you come here, right? Can you, can you, can you live in a residential community? And, you know, have the, you know, a few few things, maturity, become healthy, know when to seek help, when you need it. Do you have those things? Because then you're going to, you might need to rely on those things. You know when, when you come here. So I think those that kind of writing can be done well. And then I guess just the opposite, what doesn't work well, is that when you kind of leave us with that, I'm not so sure they're, they're ready, right? Because we want to know you're ready, right? Are you ready? And then if you're, if you're, if, if you're, if what you're writing about shows us that maybe you're not quite ready, then that writing that essay, that personal statement, isn't as effective.

Ethan Sawyer 34:45

E

Yeah, I love what you're saying here, and one of the things that I'm getting from what you're sharing is a permission giving for students who have faced, you know, challenges and who want to write about it, so that you do have. Students do have permission to write about it, you know, provided that they're speaking about their growth, and, like you said, how they're thriving. But I'm also hearing, you know what you really don't have to and you know we, I think we both agree here that students don't have to write a challenges based story in order to write an interesting personal statement. And one thing that many students don't realize is you could, for instance, put your challenges, mental health challenges, or otherwise, in this additional information section, that's absolutely right, and then write your personal statement on something else, right? You know,

D

Deanna Dixon 35:31

yes, I'm glad you said that, because I don't want to leave the impression that I am encouraging people to write about that. Yeah, you know what I want, I want students to write about what they want to write about, right? But to your point, yes, know that there is an area on the application where you can tell us this piece of you without writing a full personal statement or essay about it, and maybe, maybe there is something else about you that you want us to know. And you're going to use that space, that essay space, to tell us that, because maybe that thing isn't anywhere else in the application. And then, and then use that shorter section for kind of, oh, and by the way, this is this I want to, I want to name this. And this is, you know, a challenge that I have, that I've overcome or recovering from, or whatever the word is, but, but I'd say, if that is important for you to share, there's no, there's no, yeah, there's nothing that mandates that you have to, you know, say things that you're not comfortable with sharing. You have to be, you know, it's what you want to share with us.

E

Ethan Sawyer 36:39

Yeah, I'd love to know what is, what's a favorite essay that you've read over the years that stayed in your mind?

D

Deanna Dixon 36:44

My favorite essay, and this, this is, this is going to be a cliched essay. I'm just going to admit, you know, some of the things that we say, well, don't write about, you know, winning, winning the big game, right? That might be of the category. You know. Don't write about those because, you know, that's not all that interesting. And you know, other people are going to write about, like winning the big game, but I read an essay. This is years ago, so I'm still talking about this essay. She was, I don't know, a cross country runner, and she was taking the reader through a particular race, and the way that she captured what she was thinking and feeling and even creating kind of the sound of her feet hitting the pavement was so well done that you felt whatever it was she was describing in this moment, but in in this whole day in the life idea, it really was just kind of a race that I don't even think she won, but it wasn't even about winning or losing, right in her essay, it was about this particular experience. Might have been what she was thinking about, you know, I don't know, but it gave us an idea of of of who she was. And it was just so well written that I still kind of think about it. And this was like so many years ago.

Ethan Sawyer 37:57

E

So what would you say to folks, you know, students, maybe even parents who are listening, who have the belief that a challenges essay is quote, unquote better, or that's what colleges are really looking for. It's

D

Deanna Dixon 38:08

kind of cliche, unless you are answering the prompt that says, tell us about a failure, right? Because that could be a challenge, that could be used as a challenge essay. But I think the you know, the common app gives so many choices for how students can, you know, choose to tell us whatever it is that they want to tell us in the essay form, that I think that alone tells parents and students that you don't have to choose the challenge question. There are other prompts that are just as valid and are, you know, kind of common app worthy? I'll just put it that way, that institutions are are receiving as part of, you know, the essay answer, totally.

E

Ethan Sawyer 38:50

So one thing that students, some students, are using is chat GPT. They're using AI to write their college essays. I'm curious, what are your thoughts on chat GPT. Honestly,

D

Deanna Dixon 39:01

I haven't given a lot of thought to it, and I say that because in the world of college admission higher ed, there have been in the last couple of years so many bigger things to contend with that. You know, chat GPT, or just AI in general, has has, in my mind, sure it's, it's something maybe we need to talk about more, but it has paled in comparison to some of the other challenges that we've had in the last couple of years. And I'm specifically, you know, talking about the the s, f, f, a decision that means that we can, cannot use race as a as a singular factor in our admission decisions. Is a big one. You know, we've had the financial aid crisis with the with the FAFSA form, you know, a year ago. So, you know, it's, it seems to be, you know, one thing after another, kind. Piling up, you know, that we've had to contend with, so with, with AI. I mean, what I would say is that, you know, we know that that students and teachers and counselors, right?

E

Ethan Sawyer 40:15

That was a recent episode. Once you're listening, there's a previous episode on that, yeah,

Deanna Dixon 40:21

D

yeah. I mean, it's a tool though, right? It's a tool. And, you know, I am in the camp of you know those who believe that, in a sense, chat GPT has almost leveled the playing field right for students who in the past, you know, and still, now, you know, may not have great college counseling, or, you know, the or they might not have a tutor or somebody to read their essay. I mean, those kinds of things. And then we have students who, yeah, they, they do have that, they, they have benefited from having, you know, kind of that one on one, read my essay, give me feedback, and, you know, all of that. So with the assumption that, you know, chat GPT is available to, you know, everyone, then in that sense, it kind of levels the playing field. In that way, do we want to have essays and student writing, you know, kind of written by chat GPT? No, we don't. I mean, we I want to see authentic writing throughout the application. Is there a place for for AI to kind of help generate an idea? I mean, I think that's valid. I would love to rely on an essay and believe that the you know, the student wrote it. You know when, when a student is submitting their application, they are actually kind of signing off, attesting to the fact that all that they've had in there is, is, is authentically theirs. And I do think it's helpful for for teachers and counselors, especially those who have incredible I'm talking about the counselor community now who have you know their caseload is by the hundreds. How do you help a student through the college process when you have, you know 450 students on your caseload, and you're going to write a letter for each of the each of them, or each of your, each of your, you know, your seniors and and, and I would imagine that you know, AI is a helpful tool to help organize, maybe, or to help. You know, I believe that the content from a teacher or a counselor is authentic. I think the content, what a what they want to say about a student, is true, how it is put together in the letter form. Maybe they had help with that, you know, I don't know.
 I think we will, you know, it's, it's something that we're gonna it's, it's here to stay. I think I had a friend just a couple weeks ago who used chat GPT to do an itinerary for a trip we were gonna take. And it's like, Oh, wow. People are really using this

E

Ethan Sawyer 42:54

cool. It works. It does, it does.

D

Deanna Dixon 42:57

Anyway, I don't, I think that's all I can, I can say, I think about my feelings about that great.

E

Ethan Sawyer 43:03

And what I'm also hearing, a tiny thing that you're saying is that it seems like, so a recent podcast guest said that colleges, it seems like college admission officers are a little more okay with teachers and counselors using it than students using it, which I find interesting.

D

Deanna Dixon 43:23

That is interesting, I think, because we're not evaluating them, you know, we there's something we're getting from what their their contribution to the application, right? We want, again, we want to get a sense of who the students are, right? So, if getting so they can do that. And that's, that's what I mean about I think the content of their letters is likely legit. They're not using chat GPT to make up their description of a student. I don't believe maybe, maybe I'm naive, but, but if a student is using it, and it's not their, you know, if we're, let's just say there's a couple of couple of benefits of the essay or here is, you know, one is to get to know a student. Another is to is to learn how well they write, right? So, so does it take that away from us? Yeah, probably because it's not their writing,

Ethan Sawyer 44:13

E

E

Ethan Sawyer 44:13

right, right? One thing you mentioned a couple times was this notion of leveling the playing field. So I'd love to talk about equity for a few minutes. And let's zoom back and sort of take a 35,000 foot view. When you think of the college admission profession, what's what's working well, and where do you believe that there's still work to be done? So

D

Deanna Dixon 44:37

you know what I think we do really well is I think we have and so this is going well back to i This opinion is based on my experience since 2020. I think we can adapt quickly to. While keeping students first. And again, we've had, you know, thing after thing after thing after thing that tests that. And so I think we do that well. And I think we do it well because, because we're keeping students first, and if we, if we are showing up for them, and if, if you know college access or this idea of fit is important, then it forces us to adapt to what the world is giving us so that we can still serve students in the way that's important to us. So I think, I think the the field does that well. So where? And the other part of your question was, what? Where's the opportunity? Yeah, you know what I'm reading. Can I Can, can I mention a book, please?

E

Ethan Sawyer 45:57

Yeah, we love books. I love books.

D

Deanna Dixon 46:01

I'm reading Tony Jack's Class dismissed. I'm showing this to you because you can see me. So I'm, you know, I haven't finished it, but it is and it's funny, because sometimes some things you know, right? And you just need somebody to tell you it again and and where how this book starts is he is essentially talking about how students of different socioeconomic backgrounds were treated during the COVID. You know, students got to get out of here, time frame. And what it has pointed out is really the disparity between some of the, you know, kind of the how students who are low income and students who are higher income, how they fared with kind of receiving the information that they would have to go home, you know, because of COVID, and some of the assumptions, or actually, it wasn't even In this, oh, I guess it was an assumption, the lack of thought that was put into how, you know, this particular school that he's talking about, you know how, how there was just, you know, not enough attention being given to people who cannot just go home, right? So, so this is just an example of some of the things that he's that he is writing about, and how he begins this book. And I think so where I'm going with this is that I think the profession needs to continue to just keep an eye on ourselves to make sure that we are walking the talk. Because I think we all, many of us, you know, talk. We talk about belonging, we talk about resources that we have on campus, and, you know, we talk about these great things that are true. But I think what maybe when, when this chaos happened. In using this example, it really tests whether we have an understanding of how of what we mean about equity, or what we mean about, you know, how students belong, or feel that they belong. And so you have to test it in order to understand whether they're whether it's true or not. So I think you know. I guess you know, and maybe I, maybe I'll feel differently, is when I finish the book. But I think you know, along those lines, it's like, okay, I'm I appreciate having this reminder that, you know we need to continue to keep in mind that you know each student is bringing a, you know, a different experience to our campus. Not everyone is the same, which, yes, we know that that's what's so crazy about it. I mean, we know that, but sometimes when we have actions that that prove whether we are really whether we really understand it. I mean, that is that that is where I think there's improvement. We may know it, but do we understand it? I

E

Ethan Sawyer 49:09

love what you're saying. I'd love for you to speak to students and parents who might be listening. What would you hope that as they go through this process, that they keep in mind this is sort of like deanna's words of advice. This is your, if you had a, you know, a one minute, two minute column like, what would, what would be your words of advice as students and, you know, their families navigate this process?

D

Deanna Dixon 49:34

Well, one is that there are humans on the other. Speaking of AI,

E

Ethan Sawyer 49:38

at least for now, I know

Deanna Dixon 49:43

D

on the other side of the application. I mean, hopefully it stays that way, because there'll be a lot of us out of a job. But, but what that means to them is that there really is somebody who is reading the words and and learning about, you know. So the student, so, so that's, that's, that's a big thing, I think, for people to understand. And the other thing that I when I have this opportunity I mentioned, and especially, maybe this is coming from me at a at a women's college, is students, each student, your student, if your parent, is already unique. You know, there's nothing that you need to show us or write for us or or do for us to stand out. I mean, I think that's, that's the hard thing, because Sure, we get a lot of applications their schools, you know, bigger than Smith, you know, 1000s, 1000s upon 1000s of applications. So it's always this idea of, well, how do I stand out? You already stand out because there's only one YOU, right? There's only one person when you're not using AI, who can write that essay, there's only one person who's going to tell that story, because it's your story, and tell it like you do. You know, there's only one of you that is going to make a contribution to the classroom, or who thinks like you do in in your way you you are already unique. And I think, you know, there's so much pressure to try to, I don't know, appear to be somebody else with the goal of standing out, but you already do that. And so, you know, I say that, you know, I think sometimes girls need to hear that. And so I do try to say that when, when I can anything

E

Ethan Sawyer 51:45

else you'd like folks to know, as we wrap here, the

D

Deanna Dixon 51:49

one thing that may come to mind, and this has come up, maybe on panels, or things that I that I may sit on, or sometimes some things that counselors want to get across and in support of them. I may talk about how there are, I don't know, 4000 schools, 4000 you know, colleges and universities in this country. And I say that because, you know, sometimes we tend to focus a lot on the same schools, and we hear about or read about the same schools, and so I would hate for students to miss, like a great opportunity at a great school that maybe they've never heard of, that is really the school that is the match for them, or the fit that we talked about before, and they and they miss it because they don't expand their mind broad enough, because we're focused on on the same few. And I, and I say that from, you know, not even from, you know, an admission perspective, but from a parent perspective. And, you know, having gone through this process with with my daughter, and it's like, well, you know, there, there's do the research to find the school among all of these that really does speak to you, even if it's not one that you have that you have heard of before, because we're not reading about it in the in the, you know, in the news all the time. It doesn't get the attention, but it's doing really good work to get students to, you know, to reach their their goals, and to graduate and to and to be, you know, great, great people and citizens and, you know, contributors to the world. So I think that's like the one piece I think that, you know, sometimes doesn't come up, but I know is important for people to know. I

E

Ethan Sawyer 53:50

love that. Thank you, Deanna, so much for sharing your time and your wisdom with

D

Deanna Dixon 53:54

us. This was fun. Thank you for having me. Well,

Ethan Sawyer 53:58

E

I'll probably invite you again sometime soon. Hey friends, thanks again for listening. I loved deanna's advice about finding a wide range of colleges where you can not only get in but also find your people. I so agree. If you're curious to learn more about how you actually do that, I will link in the show notes to our guide to developing a college list. You'll find that at college sa guy.com/podcast as ever, you can find out what's happening in the college admission world by opting into anything on our website, joining our newsletter, finding out about our upcoming webinars, etc. Or you can subscribe to our YouTube channel, where we publish videos on the regular smash that like button, be well and stay curious. Do.