120: College List Hacking: Better Fit, Less Time, More Fun

Ethan Sawyer  0:08  
Welcome to the College sa guy podcast. My name is Ethan Sawyer. I'm your host, doing my best to bring more ease, joy and purpose into the college application process. How by interviewing rad people with rad ideas who've got some experience in this college admissions world and sharing with you their resources. On this episode, I interview Anne wager, who worked for a bunch of years in data and technology, made the transition to counseling, and she, as she puts it, out of desperation, developed some cards that she uses with students to help them identify, not just their preferences in terms of you know, what they're looking for in a college, but what she calls deeper preferences. And on this episode, she identifies what you know. What does she mean by deeper preferences? And why are those important? We also talk about some common mistakes that students make when picking colleges, how parents can best support in the college selection process, and for students out there who are doing this without a counselor or a really involved parent, how you can use these cards to really help figure out what you're looking for in a college All this and more on this episode, enjoy, hello, hello and welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Anne wager. She is pretty rad. Let me tell you how rad. So she grew up in Silicon Valley. Her dad was a PhD physicist, and she spent a lot of time hanging out Saturdays with her dad at like the electronics hub Zach electronics in Palo Alto around tech. She graduated from Stanford with two degrees in anthropology, which I'm curious to hear more about. She did some behavioral research at Jane Goodall's outdoor primate facility Gombe West, and she's always been fascinated by how humans interact with tech and how that impacts behavior, which we'll get into in a bit. She studied mapping and programming at Stanford, and it was actually one of only a few women in her programming and civil engineering classes. So after graduating, she worked for some multinational engineering firms in Boston and San Francisco, ran her own land surveying and geographic information systems companies, consulted with a few companies you've heard of, Microsoft, Costco, something called homegrocer.com, which was well before Amazon and Whole Foods teamed up. Then she took a career shift and made the transition to the world of data and tech to counseling, which brings us here today. She's rabid about developing tools that have a big impact on students and counselors, and over the last 15 years, she's worked with over 1500 students as they go through this college search process. I'm so excited for you to be here, and welcome to the podcast.


Anne Wager  2:38  
Thank you. It's great to be here. So


Ethan Sawyer  2:40  
I'm most curious about just hearing a little bit more on, first of all, two degrees in anthropology. Who you know, one is awesome. Two is, was that like a bonus degree?


Anne Wager  2:50  
It's a bonus degree at Stanford. Yeah, they do that. They do a fifth year option.


Ethan Sawyer  2:57  
Oh, gotcha. Okay, got it. And talk to me about behavioral research at Jane Goodall's facility. What, what's, what was going on at Gombe West?


Anne Wager  3:06  
Well, it was a pretty exciting facility. It's gone now, but at the time, it was behind the linear accelerator up in the hills, behind Stanford, okay? And I'd ride my bike up there, and it was, it was fascinating. You'd go through the gates of the linear accelerator, and there it opened up into a huge chimp facility, outdoor facility, where they were playing the trees and had a lot of land to run around it. We were doing research on the chimpanzee behavior, and it was fascinating to watch them on a daily basis and how they reacted in groups, and you saw a lot of similarities to human behavior. By the way, it was


Ethan Sawyer  3:47  
fascinating. That's amazing. So the challenge question is going to be, at the very end of this whole deal, and I'm kind of joking, is going to be okay? Well now how did that? How did that help you develop the Kurosawa card? So before we get to the thing that we're going to talk about, which is a resource. Just side note to the listeners, this is, you know, I'm especially excited because Anne is kind of, like, revered, like, like, counselors are so grateful to Anne for the thing that we're going to talk about today that it's just, you know, I feel like everybody's like, I was recently at a conference, and one of my co presenters was talking about the thing we're going to talk about today, and they're like, hey, and she's here right now. And it was like, just, it was like a standing ovation. It was like, Thank you, you know, but I'm curious, before we even get to the cards, how what need did this come out of what did what need did you see in the sort of counseling community, whether it was from counselors or from students and parents that that that sort of set you up to go, Hey, this is something that you know, that the world needs. Well,


Anne Wager  4:48  
I think it was probably my first Knack at conference when I was starting out and I was, I was really actually pretty shocked. At how important the rankings were to everybody, and also what that seemed all of the counselors were lamenting it and and complaining about it, but I couldn't understand why the counselors weren't being asked what they thought and really what what they could do to make a difference in this whole process. And I think for me, personally, I was a volunteer through the College Success foundation when I started out, I was, I was really, you know, I don't have the benefit of the background that most counselors do from an educational standpoint. So I was a little bit terrified. I just, you know, how do I? How do I make a difference with these kids quickly? And I saw the value of counseling firsthand through that program and realized I needed something. I was really desperate to have a tool that would help me get to their deeper preferences quickly. And so it was sort of a two sided issue. I you know, how do I? How do I help myself really make a difference for all these kids? And then also, how do I help counselors everywhere make a change to something that really seemed to be getting nowhere and getting worse year after year. Yeah.


Ethan Sawyer  6:21  
And I love you said, deeper preferences. I love that phrase. And you know, one of the things and what we're talking about is we're talking about, you know, when students are faced with this giant I call it the big shopping trip, it's like the biggest shopping trip of your life, right, where you're trying to sort through which of these colleges makes sense for me and what do I even want, and you know, it can be absolutely overwhelming. What are some of the and you mentioned rankings, dude, what? I'm just curious. What are some of the other missteps or mistakes that you think you know students make or parents make as they're kind of going through this process of trying to sort through preferences and pick a college Well, I think,


Anne Wager  6:58  
I think one of the biggest things I see over and over again is, and I asked this during a beta test we were doing in a classroom setting with the cards. How do you all pick a college and and over and over again, you hear sort of the same, same list of criteria, size, the location. But you know, I'm, I'm pretty rabid about going to a lot of sessions and listening to a lot of webinars on on what really makes a difference, and how kids are going to be successful and thrive and graduate at at college and it, and it really doesn't have a lot to do with those criteria that kids are focusing on, because that's all they have. I mean, how, how could I get at their deeper preferences, like, is there a collaborative environment on this campus? Or is, is are you going to thrive under pressure? Or do you need to be more more in that collaborative type setting? Or do you, do you want a place with a strong sense of community? Or is do you want? And then and over and over again, you see them come up with answers, like, I want to a big school with a lot of school spirit, but I need small classes. And so it really was a way for me to quickly. I mean, really by the time they sort the cards in five or 10 minutes, really understand and have them think about things they had never even considered


Ethan Sawyer  8:25  
great. So let's, let's pull the veil back, and let's let them know what we're even talking about with these mysterious cards. You know, the the person who has no idea might be going are these terrible cards,


Anne Wager  8:36  
exactly what they sell. And I get that comment a lot, but, yeah, that's


Ethan Sawyer  8:40  
okay. That's interesting. So tell us, you know, tell folks who maybe have never heard of the course cards. What are they and how do they work?


Anne Wager  8:46  
Sure. Well, they are actually two decks of cards, just like playing cards that students use and to sort into four different categories. So things that they must have things that would be nice, things they don't really care about, and things they absolutely don't want in the college. And so they take those cards and they sort them into the four piles. And you can either, you know, it's fascinating. Some kids make decisions quickly, and if parents are nearby, some of them will glance at their parents every time they put a card down. You see a lot of variety in how kids do it. But then you have the four piles of cards, and you've had a conversation, either during the sort or after the sort to discuss some of these criteria, everything from majors and we've made sure to include, you know, more current majors like analytics and statistics and things that are really going to resonate with today's students. But it really is a way to open the conversation quickly. I hear over and over again, it's a great ice breaker with kids that walk in terrified and have. No idea. Or they're, you know, they, they just aren't too excited about the process. I think the key is they, they always feel excited that someone's asking them about what's important to them. They're not just being told what they need. Yeah, school has, and


Ethan Sawyer  10:16  
I, I love one of the things that I love about the cards, and I've used the cards with my students and talk to them about it is just how fast it works. And I'm curious, when you work with students, or when you see them, what is the range of, like, how much time they'll spend, you know, if it's like, let's say, doing an initial sort,


Anne Wager  10:31  
I think, you know, and I've timed it. I've worked with so many students using these cards. It's really funny. You see so many different styles. You see the sort of the Las Vegas dealer style, where they go very quickly, and, you know, takes them five minutes, and they know exactly what they want, right? They might have a few questions. I've had kids that will ponder a little more, but I would say the maximum time it's it takes, and it really depends on the counselor if they want to talk about each card. So it's really, you know, really up to the counselor, but I would say 10 minutes at the most, wow.


Ethan Sawyer  11:07  
So the students pick, they sort these into piles, you know, must have would be nice. Don't care, no way. And I'm curious, because I don't know this. Like, were there always four piles? Or were there ever three? Or were there ever, you know, two or seven,


Anne Wager  11:22  
that is a great question. And because when I initially made these cards, which, you know, it was out of desperation, as I said, I had them laminated and just used the set myself, and I had enough counselors start to ask for them. It was sort of a homegrown thing. I i got them printed as playing cards, but there were only three categories. There was the really want, the don't care, and the No way. And over and over again, I saw the same thing as did most counselors students always wanted that fourth category. And I have a lot of clients in the tech industry who do a lot of statistical type analysis, and I've asked them over the years, and they all say we need four categories interesting. So it's it's fascinating, and it works much better. I'm you know that there are four categories now, and it just makes it, it makes my job easier, because they don't really have to commit, but they they can think about things that would be nice to have. Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  12:20  
and I'm so fascinated by this, this notion of deeper preferences, and I want to pick up on a thread of something that you said a couple minutes ago, where you said that, and if I'm rephrasing, feel free to rewrite this. But you know, the way that you seem like you said it was that the things that they think they want or the things that they're looking for aren't actually what they're looking for exactly. Yeah. Say more about


Anne Wager  12:42  
that. Well, I think what happens is they they over and over again are asked, Do you want to a big school? Do you want to be in a rural area? Do you want an urban environment? But really, there are so many other criteria that we've come up with over the years that impact their success at college, things things like, is there a creative culture on campus? Do you need that? Or do you need structure? Or do you need an unstructured academic sort of environment? Or actually, you know, from from all standpoints, do you need more structure? And it was interesting the other day, when I did this beta test in the classroom setting, one young woman asked me, after she just she was so excited, she said, I didn't know what Co Op programs and internships were, but now I know I really want those. I didn't even know they existed. So it's a way to very quickly make that happen and see that, you know, they they look inside themselves and see what's important to them, because so much now is marketed to them. They're they're they, you know, people are constantly barraging them with information, but not really asking them what's important to their success.


Ethan Sawyer  13:59  
Yeah. And what I'm hearing too, and in what you're saying, you know, the a joke that I'll sometimes make with my students is that when I'll send them to do college research, they'll maybe spend 20 minutes, you know, 15 minutes. And I'm like, and they've got these really super nice headphones sometimes that they're wearing, I'm like, How long did you spend researching your headphones? You know, exactly. Sometimes it's longer to, you know, they'll spend more time on the headphones, than, than, than doing this. But one other, the other benefit that I'm hearing of this too, is that actually spending more time doing this is maybe going to help set them up for, I don't know, you know, happiness in college. Is that too much to say? Well,


Anne Wager  14:32  
yeah, no, I and I've been to many sessions on what really makes kids successful. And you know more on the college side, listening to what they say. You know, they certainly study this. It's important to them to have students that will thrive and graduate. And so if you can see that, you know, if a student takes their must have and would be nice piles, and they've got that sort of imprinted on their brain, now I know what I want. Their research goes to an entirely new level. So when they you send them off to say, okay, these are the colleges that sort of meet these criteria. Why don't you go answer, you know, five or you know, questions about five or 10 of these cards that are really important to you and see if that that college is going to fit, fit your needs, and so they they feel empowered to to really do the research in a more meaningful way.


Ethan Sawyer  15:31  
Give me, I'd love to get some more insight into bait, how different counselors use these. And you mentioned it a little bit, you know, some prefer to talk about each card. Can you just take me inside, whether it's your session or just a session you've seen, you know, with the council using it's been different from something you do. So we so I can get some sense of like, you know, you know, peak, you know, give us a peek inside, sure.


Anne Wager  15:50  
Well, I would say that some some counselors, and I get a lot of feedback, so it's interesting from both schools and from independent counselors and community based organizations that are using them, and they all have a different method. I would say that when you sit and do this sort with a student, it opens the conversation quickly. So if you're using the card, sort of one on one, it can be a great way to open the conversation. And now that we have also the online version, you can do it more in a group setting. So for a lot of counselors, they want to have a workshop, let's say, at a library, or they're in their school setting. They want to have this discussion and have students really evaluate what's important to them. I have some counselors that use it the card sort let's say three times during the process. They'll use it before the student or when the student comes in for the first time, and then they'll use it after they've maybe visited or done their research on some schools and see what the changes are. And then the most interesting can be when they're making their final decision. And I love, you know, if you have the luxury of seeing the student more than once, which, you know, some some counselors, do you, you see some big changes, and that's rewarding, because they've said, you know, I really thought I wanted this, but I've learned more about this now. Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  17:26  
what I love about them, especially is the way that there's potential for to have, for them to have a paradigm shift, like right there in five minutes. You know exactly. And oftentimes, students don't know, because there's not, they don't have the menu of, sort of, well, what are the options? What are the and there's an exercise that I use called the values exercise, where I just present this list of values, and I go, okay, you've got two minutes pick your top 10 values. And suddenly students are learning that they do have preferences, that you know, they might choose family over, you know, social justice, or, you know, they choose the environment over something else. So suddenly it's like, oh, and just, you know what I love about it too, is that it's concretizing these things that are maybe abstract and kind of floating in their minds. But suddenly, when forced to make a choice, you got to, you know, circle something or put something in a pile, it's like, Oh, I do have a preference. Yeah,


Anne Wager  18:15  
exactly. And I think that's that's such a great tool, because they do asking a student to look inside themselves, as opposed to, you know, externally, what's what's going on around them, and and also, I think you've got it, you've got a good thing going there, because this generation is really into relationships, which was, is such a surprise, because you think, Oh, They're just, you know, they're online all the time. I think I, and I've seen the ship, I think it, there is a shift that they really value that personal time and also, and even if you're a counselor with a big case load, you have, and now that there's a report that's generated after the card sort you have information on what is important to that student, and in five minutes, counselors who who really know their schools are going to be able to to give you some answers quickly. I


Ethan Sawyer  19:16  
want to hear more about the online thing in a second, but first, I'm curious Where did the name corsava come from?


Anne Wager  19:23  
Oh, that was kind of interesting. You know, there are a lot of there are a lot of expensive ways to get company names. I've just right, and I didn't want to use any of them. And so we had a contest in our family, and we decided, well actually, we were going to give a reward of a dinner out to whomever came up with the the the best solution. And actually, my husband did, and it was three Italian words put together, Corso, which means path and. Uh, the verb to know saw and VA, to go. So it really is. It's a made up word, corsava, to know your path, and, and it was available and, and we were pretty excited about it. That's really exciting. It's, yeah, it's, it's a beautiful word. It only costs one dinner. That's


Ethan Sawyer  20:22  
awesome. It's funny how I find with games like this, because I love using games to motivate my students too. My wife totally hates it, and so I try not to use it on her. But how, you know how a game with something like and sometimes I'll joke, I'll be like, the prize is the joy of winning. But totally worked. Did he end up? Did you end up, like, following through on the dinner that? Did you guys? But


Anne Wager  20:44  
you know, we're all kind of sharing anyway,


Ethan Sawyer  20:48  
right? Um, tell me about, I'm just curious about how, even before you got into the online version, how have the cards evolved? Some of the ways, like, were there new cards developing? You know, I know that the color has changed. Talk to me a little bit about that.


Anne Wager  21:00  
Oh, yeah. Well, you know, at the beginning, i i Because I did them myself. I just downloaded some free, hopefully free, Microsoft clip art, and made them myself on my computer. So they were very basic. There was no sort of artistic pattern to them, except for Microsoft and and really the categories. We only had the three categories, and we had some, some pretty basic type I, you know, I had some of the deeper press preferences, but I would say that over the years, what's changed is the amount of counselor and student and family feedback I've received on the card, so that we've been able to add some that really are more impactful. I mean, when I meet with college admissions representatives, I'm hearing over and over again. They're they're really pushing, sort of, we have a collaborative environment here. We have a competitive environment. Or is social justice an important thing to the students? So you know what we're hearing when I when I hear that there are trends out there, I want to make sure that we reflect that in these cards. Yeah, talk


Ethan Sawyer  22:23  
to you about the colors, the color coding.


Anne Wager  22:27  
Oh, for the Oh, that's interesting, too. That was a big change that I'm glad you brought that up, because what the categories, what we've done is enough counselors were sort of creating their own categories with the initial sets of cards, the the earlier ones that didn't have categories, and they they, they gave enough feedback, and we decided that really the key to having the report and sort of the summary be more meaningful would be to add different categories, like student resources, the education, educational culture on the campus, the campus culture, and then obviously things like majors and residential life. And so what you see is when the students sort them. Now you can see that, wow, the academics are in the don't care pile all of them, but they really care about the culture on the campus or so. It's interesting to see because of the categories. Now you can really see what's meaningful to the student, and it can open some discussions. Maybe we need to rethink that a little bit, right?


Ethan Sawyer  23:38  
And I could really see how so I'm connecting this to values, and I'm also connecting it to preferences that I've seen. And sometimes, you know, because I have students do, either do what you are, you know, Myers Briggs, or I'll have them, yes, I use that too. Yeah, you science and, and I'm, you know, going, okay, is this jiving with what I'm getting over here? You know, if, sir, for example, if the student is an intuitive feeler on the Myers, Briggs and NF, you know, are they, in terms of their heart values? Are they idealistic, you know? Are they talk about valuing relationships, valuing the community? Is that reflected in the cards? And sometimes it's true, and sometimes it's sort it's that's really satisfying, and sometimes it's not. And it, what it does for me is it allows me to sort of go, oh, okay, well, let me think I was thinking about the student this particular student this particular way, but now I'm seeing this other


Anne Wager  24:25  
side Exactly. And I think, you know, you can have all kinds of online type reports, and those are great, and they help you initially, but it really, you know, nobody is, nobody is going to be defined that narrowly. And it's fascinating. That's what I love about the discussions you're able to have about things that you assumed maybe they would want or not want, but in fact, you were wrong,


Ethan Sawyer  24:50  
right? Talk to me about so talk to me about what the online version has opened up, what's possible now with the digital version that maybe wasn't possible before, with just, you know, with the. Me, because I love the in person, but I mean, really excited about the online. So, yeah, well, talk to me about that shift and what you're seeing currently and for the future.


Anne Wager  25:09  
I got, I got so many requests to have have it online. And I, you know, I, I initially pushed back a little because, as you said, the value is sitting there with a student. But who, you know, not many people have the luxury of doing that, and I really wanted to take it to the next level. And so, so people who are working or counselors who are working with students remotely, which more and more are CBOs that work remotely, that's a huge group of community based organizations around the country work with kids in rural settings, urban settings, and I wanted everybody to be able to access the cards. I mean, I've seen over the years, some counselors have been holding the cards up on Skype, one by one. And I thought, you know, this is just we need to transition so that we can help everyone, and including international students, who really are are are looking at things from a totally different perspective, and it can be a helpful way to have that conversation with them. So we went ahead and I've got a team of developers, and my developer last because he said, This is the only time I have worked with someone who's told me what to do rather than me telling them what to do. So we have had counselors around the country helping build and and critique and give feedback on all of these applications over the last year, because it's counselor driven. And I just, I feel very strongly it needs to be a counselor driven process, and they need to be given the technology that they deserve to make a difference. So I would say the online version really just is more a way to work, you know, in a group setting, remotely, internationally, and a lot of counselors assign it, assign the card, sort and then, if they only have five minutes with the student, they've got the report in front of them, and they can have a very effective conversation very quickly. And


Ethan Sawyer  27:20  
for those folks who haven't, who may be using the cards but haven't seen the online version yet, just kind of map it out for us. Is it just, do they Is it a kind of drag and drop thing? How does it work?


Anne Wager  27:30  
No, it's the four emoji cards, which are kind of fun. I get a lot of feedback on those. Those are definitely an upgrade and and it's, it's just a way to, it's a random sort the way it would be with your deck of cards in your office, and students just click quickly through all of them, and then a report is generated. And the nice thing is, it has a one page summary guide, so that you don't have to explain to parents if, if they weren't there, they can, they can see the report. You can share it, you can save it as a PDF. You can print it. You can do whatever you want with it, but it's a way to and we've added a lot more cards that's been fun. And I think, because we're in real time now, we've got about 21 new cards coming out that a lot of people have asked for. And you can hide cards if, if your school or your practice doesn't want certain cards, you can also hide them. Oh, interesting. So, a lot more flexibility, because certain people, certain counselors, certain schools may not want all of them


Ethan Sawyer  28:33  
available. Yeah, that's you may not even want to say what those are, but I'm curious, like, I'm always curious.


Anne Wager  28:38  
Well, you know, I do have to tell a funny story about a new card that was very controversial that we were going to you know, I don't know if you know the number one search criteria for students when they're looking online for a college's party school. Wow, yeah, big surprise. So I got a lot of pushback on that, but it's been fascinating, because parents will raise their eyebrows. You know, watching a student put it in the would be nice category. But what I found is that card is pretty powerful, because it opens a lot of conversations about why they're going to college too. So we have new cards coming out all of the time, and now, with Facebook and all of the feedback we're getting on a pretty high level, we're able to create new cards and add cards and change cards and update them real time, which is super fun. Oh, wow. I think one of the really fun parts of the new online version is the definitions that we added for each card. We found that a lot of students would ask questions, and if you have the luxury of a counselor right there with you, it's great, because you can talk about, Hey, what is a Co Op program? And I need a little help under. Understanding what that is. And you know, one of our most questioned card, or the one that we kept the most questions for, is the big fish in the little pond, and most kids don't understand what that is. It's an and so that can be a really great conversation. So we ended up writing to definitions for each card that pop up as the card goes by on the online version. And I initially wrote those myself, and had one of the counselors I have on our early adopter team take a look at them, and our developer, who's a millennial as well, took a look at them and said, you know, these are super boring, so I


Ethan Sawyer  30:45  
it's good to have honest people you're working No, we have


Anne Wager  30:49  
a great team. And I was initially embarrassed about it, but I decided, of course, we need to just have them completely rewrite all these definitions. And she's done a wonderful job, and it was really fun to watch the students go through it in sort of that beta testing classroom, because they didn't ask me one question. They knew exactly what they what those definitions of each card meant without any explanation, and they thought they were fun.


Ethan Sawyer  31:18  
That's awesome. I mean, anything that in this, you know, business, or in this, you know, game, that's that can be so high touch and involves so much work for counselors, you know, something that is automatable, that we didn't think was automatable is like a real gift, I think, to, you know, to counselors, and to, you know, to parents, you know that you can just sort of turn a student loose and suddenly they've got something on the other side of it. So, and talk to me about, how do parents respond to the cards?


Anne Wager  31:45  
Well, you know, that's such a fun question because it's fascinating to watch the dynamics. I would say, in many cases, they get to the student will get to the end of the card, sort and if the parent is there, they'll say, gee, you know, see that financial aid card that you you have in the don't care pile, let's move that into the must have pile and it and you know, that kind of conversation can be helpful. But what, what is more fun is when I see the parents say, you know, I wish I had had this when, when I was young, because what I would, I hadn't even really thought about those types of things. And it, it tears down that wall a little bit between, you know, what the parent is thinking is right for the child and what the what the student is thinking they is important to them. And I'm not saying that either is right or wrong, but it's the dialog that I see that's fascinating. So even if the report is sent to them after the fact, and they can sit around the dining room table and talk about the results, I think it opens that conversation and gets everybody on the same page early. So we all know how many counselors are barraged with, you know? What do you what do you mean you're applying to these schools? I don't even you know these aren't schools. I want it on your list. And so it gets everybody thinking about important criteria early in the process to ease the stress that often comes up with helicopter parents, let's say who know exactly what is right for the student, and that's definitely in conflict with what the student wants. And we all know that if we can empower the student there, I see it over and over again, they're going to be, you know, if the decision is is based on their criteria, as well as, obviously the financial need and all, yeah, they're going to be happier and sort of power through college if they've had more to say about what the decision is going to be on, where they're going to go and what's important to them, college is not, you know there, it's going to have us up to ups and downs, no matter where you are. But if you feel that you've really thought about that decision at a deeper level, I find that kids are just more successful and will graduate. So


Ethan Sawyer  34:07  
what are some what's what advice would you give to counselors, if they recognize that they might be dealing with the helicopter parent, just in terms of how the student is sorting the cards right,


Anne Wager  34:19  
your first clue is when they look at their parents every time they pick a card up and decide whether what pile they're going to put it into. And I have a lot of counselors tell me they'll send parents into a different room with their own set of cards. That's great, and that actually can be an interesting process, because when the when you see the similarities and the differences in what the parent thinks the student wants or should have versus what the student wants it. That can be a valuable conversation, right there. You know, I think another thing that the students really love about the cards is it's the first time they've gone through sort of a preference selection of what. Matters to them without being asked their GPA and their scores. And when I was doing that beta test in a classroom setting, one young woman turned to me and said, I just, you know, I think the thing that I really loved about this process is you were asking me what I wanted, and I didn't get turned off by having to give you my GPA and my scores, because the minute I do that, I freeze up and I give up. And it was just, it was a rewarding moment for me, because there are colleges that meet a lot of those students preferences in all selectivity categories.


Ethan Sawyer  35:38  
That's great, and it really expands the conversation about what fit means. I think, you know, this is interesting, because in some ways, looking at what schools, quote, unquote, fit you based on scores. And GPA is a valid way of sorting, like there's, and, you know, another podcast that I did with Mark moody, he has his quick and dirty List Builder, which is, like, based on your tests and scores. You know, here's some schools to consider,


Anne Wager  36:00  
and absolutely it's, it's unavoidable, right? And that's that could


Ethan Sawyer  36:04  
be useful. But, you know, we using that, using something like that, which takes you five minutes to scan it with this, which takes you, maybe, you know, 10 minutes to work through, and then, you know, spend an hour or two on college Express, or, you know, sorting and starting to see what the overlap I could see being a really powerful one two punch, that in a day you've had a, you know, a pretty in depth, you know, experience of, here's what I want, and, you know, here's some places that might work for that exactly


Anne Wager  36:32  
because you're coming at it from a different direction. You're not immediately being turned off and told what you can't have. You're being told what, what's important to you, and now I'm going to find the places where that's going to fit,


Ethan Sawyer  36:44  
and then, so, okay, so talk to me. So a student goes through this process, they spend the 10 minutes, or, you know, however many minutes going through it, hopefully they've got a counselor who's, you know, has an encyclopedic knowledge, who can be like, ooh, check out this school and that school. But what about for those students out there listening, who don't have that counselor, who are just doing this on their own. You know, where do they go? To, research, colleges? Well,


Anne Wager  37:05  
I think a great place to go is to ask your peers in your high school setting that can be very helpful, students who've gone to different colleges, and can look at your preferences and maybe give you some tips. I think it, you know, it's really important to sort of stay away from those sites that are going to just give you a bunch of iPads data that might not be as meaningful to what's important to you, but sites like Steve Antonoff college Express website, which I think is great because It gives a lot more of those deeper preferences sort of out front it presents them, and those have been built by counselors as well. So I think that can be a very helpful way for them to take those criteria that are important to them and look at that website and just create a login and and see you know what colleges would maybe surprise them. And I My goal is, I think the key for a lot of students is they don't think out of the box on on location either, and they may not realize that, wow, I can get a lot more money at this place is a great fit that I've never heard of. And that's where those types of things can pop out and just be a life changer for kids,


Ethan Sawyer  38:23  
right? This is I'm so glad you mentioned Steven. So if for just quick note to the listener, if you haven't heard my podcast with Stephen Antonoff, consider that kind of like the part two of this one. So imagine you know that here and with the cards, with the corsava cards, is helping you figure out what are you looking for, and then Steven and the resource that I connect to in that podcast, which is on, okay, now, how do you find the schools? Is a great one. And I'll actually link to that in the show notes here. It's called How to create a great college list. And he's, you know, he's got a lot to say about that that you guys can listen to. And one of the things I love that you said, that you reminded me is that those lists that he developed that are now living on college express that you can check out for free are basically, you know, it was developed in a similar way, as far as I understand. In other words, it was sort of talking to counselors and saying, Hey, what do you know about this school? What do you know about that school? So and then, you know, cross referencing that with other counselors opinions in order to figure out, you know, which schools are basically, to put it bluntly, like, which schools are good for what you know, right? That's the way kids put it. To me. They're like, what's what schools are good for? This, you know exactly so, so what's, what's what's looking ahead? I'm curious to just give us some sense of what, what are the what's cooking in the kitchen for for you and the team.


Anne Wager  39:40  
Well, I'm really excited about what's coming down the pipe, because I wanted to continue sort of taking it to the next level for counselors and for students everywhere. And I'm excited because once the student does the card, sort and you know, a lot of students will be using them online. We're developing. A college visit app for students so that they can give their impressions of things that are just important to them and sort of their must have and would be nice categories when they visit colleges and when they do their research. And that's a great tool for people like you who are working with them on their essay. Why this school? Because they can really pinpoint, hey, this school has these great things that match the criteria that I really want. And we are also developing the mobile version for counselors to give their impressions, which I, as I, as I mentioned earlier, are just invaluable, because they're the ones who do all the visiting and all of the the you know, they see the admissions reps when they come to their high school and and that combination of the counselor input and the student input on impressions is really going to be powerful. Really


Ethan Sawyer  40:58  
neat. I love it. Yay. I'm excited. I'm so excited, like, at that you're in our industry, and that sounds like a weird thing, because it's like you've been in it longer than I have, or as long as I have. So that's maybe a weird thing to say, but I'm just really grateful that you're applying your brain and your interests to these problems that I find to be interesting problems as well.


Anne Wager  41:19  
Well, I really appreciate that. I am, I am really excited about the project, yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  41:24  
and it's funny that, you know, and I, what I also appreciate is how I see you as a specialist. And you know that this is the kind of I'm certainly, you're working on other problems and things in your life, but you know, this is a particular problem that's such a huge pain point. And so I'm, yeah, I'm just grateful. So let's do, I want to do show and tell. And so this is the part of the podcast, if you haven't heard it before, where we each share a resource that we're finding useful, either in our lives or that we'd recommend that, you know, folks check out in terms of the college application process. So and what have you brought today for show and tell?


Anne Wager  41:59  
Well, I think one of the most overlooked resources out there that's not intuitively, a counselor resource would be LinkedIn. And I just love talking to students about what their dream job is, or, you know, whether they want to be a doctor, they want to work in a ski manufacturing company, or they want to study work in a company that's going to look at how people react to certain products or product design, and there's no better resource than LinkedIn. I mean, they know more about us than Facebook, and they they know where we've done our internships and done our research and where we went to school and what we studied. And you can do a lot of reverse searches, and I've actually had some students have success, even reaching out to people and ask them, How did you get there? And the other thing I have them do is look at the websites for some of the places they they think are their sort of dream places, whether it's a, you know, a big engineering firm, or whether it's a company like Amazon, what types of people are they hiring, and what sort of sorts of experience do they have? And then you can do that search on LinkedIn as well. And I think, you know, big surprises come up. Like, gosh, I didn't know Microsoft here in Seattle, they hire, I think they're the second largest hire of anthropologists, and how they react to certain products, you know, doing sort of product development, there are a lot of surprises to be gleaned out there. And I don't think it's your normal approach. It's just not a normal sort of way that counselors think about, oh, this is going to be a great tool, but, but there's a lot of value there.


Ethan Sawyer  43:43  
Awesome. Yeah, mine, my show and tell is just so a few months ago, I'd say, I launched this Facebook group, which is the college essay forum for counselors, where counselors can just, you know, kind of like, I say it's where we can geek out on all things college essay related, but it's become, you know, a community where folks can share, hey, I'm dealing with this particular issue. You know, who can help with this? And so just a couple weeks ago, I launched a college essay forum for students, where students can now ask questions as they're going through this process. And it could be, you know, pairing up with somebody to find a writing buddy, you know, somebody who can offer you some either accountability or, you know, give you feedback on a draft. And so, you know, I love


Anne Wager  44:26  
just exciting. I'm excited to know about that. Yeah, I'm excited


Ethan Sawyer  44:29  
that, you know that we're able to use, and who knows, the students are going to be on Facebook and, you know, six months, or if any of them even listen to this, are still on Facebook. But this might be a reason to, you know, reopen a profile, and folks can just search that by just typing in college essay forum for counselors or for students. Of course, I have students trying to join the counselor one, and I'm like, sorry. You know it requires approval so they don't get accepted, which


Anne Wager  44:51  
is a great which is a great way to go. I'm excited to to to see that and learn more about it.


Ethan Sawyer  44:56  
Yeah, and there are a few just basic questions that folks answer to. Get into them. But I'm excited, like you, about the potential, you know, using technology to create community and help, you know, answer questions. So that's mine. Great. Well, and this is awesome. And I'm just, like, newly inspired and excited to get into this and to get into the online version. So how do folks get the cards, or how do folks get the online version?


Anne Wager  45:20  
They can go to the corsava website to purchase the cards, if that's what they prefer, if they want to the hard copy cards. And when they complete their purchase, they are sent an email that gives them online access immediately, and they can have as many students as they want on the online version, either by purchasing the cards, or if they just want online access, they can complete a form that we have on our website that really helps CBOs, independent counselors, schools, anyone who is working with students can complete that form and request online access at no charge. Wow,


Ethan Sawyer  46:02  
awesome. And we're almost at time. What would you like to leave us with?


Anne Wager  46:09  
Well, I really think my goal is to make sure that somebody has finally given counselors the tools they need to make a really big impact. And I want everybody to think out of the box on this. And my my hope is that we have a really big early adopter team, and I'm hoping that counselors everywhere will tell us what they want, because I don't think a lot of counselors have been asked, and I don't think there have been a lot of good solutions developed to help them with their large case loads, the stress from parents, the time constraints and all of the things that are out there, and I am just determined to make a change for counselors.


Ethan Sawyer  46:53  
And thank you for your work, and thank you for your time. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening. You can find all the show notes at college essay guy.com/blog just click on this episode. If you're a student and you're interested in getting some peer editing help, check out the college essay forum for students on Facebook. Just type in college essay forum for students be well you


Transcribed by https://otter.ai