701: On Becoming: The Art and Craft of Personal Storytelling (Ep 1: My Desk & Magic) with Amanda McRaven

Amanda McRaven (00:00)
you

Ethan Sawyer (00:02)
you

Hi friends and welcome back to the podcast. So this is a brand new series that we're starting and it's called on becoming the art and craft of personal storytelling. In this series, we'll dig deep into college essays from past students, talk about why we love them and how they came to be. And for me, this title on becoming is not just about the craft of writing, like how a story came to be, but it speaks to what I believe the personal statement is at its best, which is a record of a student's becoming the beautiful

sometimes messy, hopefully meaningful process of students learning to better understand themselves and articulate their values and really find their voice in the world. So whether you're a student parent or counselor, I hope you find something meaningful in this series. In this first episode, I sit down with Amanda McRaven, who is one of my dearest oldest friends and happened to be my first hire at college essay guy as an essay coach. Amanda is an artist, a teacher, a director.

A storyteller, she lives in the Pacific Northwest and she's a veteran educator with over 15 years experience helping coach students through this college essay process. But what I love about Amanda is her approach to this process. She treats it like an art form and helps students mind their lives for meaning to find those awesome gems in seemingly ordinary moments and help students connect the dots between their experiences.

And I love, love working with her. In our conversation, we get into two of our favorite essays. One is called the My Desk Essay. That wasn't the title of it. That's the title we give it to just refer to it. And the other is an essay about magic. So you'll get a little behind the scenes look of how these came to be and we'll nerd out on some college essay stuff as you'll see. And we hope you enjoy.

Hi Amanda, welcome to the podcast.

Amanda McRaven (02:07)
Bye! It's good to be here!

Ethan Sawyer (02:10)
I feel really excited to see you. And I wanted to just give a little context for folks about how 10 years ago, now going on 11, I had just started college SA guy and I was like needing some help because I had more students than I could work with. And so I reached out to you. You were my first call.

And I know you know this, yeah, happy dance. I know you know this, I just want to say like, thanks for saying yes. And thanks for being my friend and colleague and like, I don't know, midnight texting about an essay person over all these years, because it's been such a ride.

Amanda McRaven (02:52)
It has been a ride. It's a wild. I'm prepped for this. was just looking back over documents and you know, when you're in the water, you don't see it. And but these all these things came back of the early days when, know, we would talk about every essay and have multiple reviews and there I only had, I think, like three kids that first year. So wild to have been part it for so long.

Ethan Sawyer (03:18)
So wild. Well, thanks for, yeah, sitting and appreciating these essays with me for a few minutes. You know, in terms of, in terms of context, we're going to talk about two. neither one of these has a title, by the way. We refer to the first one as My Desk because, well, you'll find out soon. And the second one as Magic. And we were kind of trying to decide, is there a theme here? we think that one of the, well, you tell me, what is it that you saw?

these students is having in common when you know when we thought about it here

Amanda McRaven (03:50)
Both of these students for me are STEM focus. They were going into STEM careers, but are really tapped into their creativity in these essays. So when you work with a lot of STEM students, as I do, you often have more of a straightforward essay, which is totally fine. These two students in particular, think, wouldn't consider themselves creative, but I think they really, both students did an amazing job finding their creative voice.

and showing a unique take. You don't feel like you're reading a STEM personal essay. You're just going on a ride.

Ethan Sawyer (04:30)
Will you say the thing you said about your brand at CEG?

Amanda McRaven (04:33)
Yeah, brand is so background, they probably heard the bio, but my background is theater and creative writing. So my brand at CAG where I've been happily pigeonholed is to work with STEM students on fighting their creativity.

Ethan Sawyer (04:50)
Yeah, and why do you think that is? What do you make up about that?

Amanda McRaven (04:53)
I think because I've been here for so long, we also have these archetypes at CIG, gardener, architect, is there a third?

Ethan Sawyer (05:02)
Yeah, there's well, there's Gardner and then we, added, so we went Explorer for like the sort of wandering and then there's sort of like the architect one. And then we sort of settled on Gardner as the middle of the Venn diagram.

Amanda McRaven (05:15)
Yeah, so I've always been a gardener, which is like, all right, you've got this awesome list of brainstorming. Let's roll up our sleeves and dig in there. What's popping out for me? And I also really pride myself on after the first, in the first session, I think because of my creative background, I see the metaphor pop out for montage. Most students I work with are montage. So I see what the thing is, the frame that's gonna hold the essay together. And without fail, you always see the students go,

Whoa, cool. Then we fill in the content.

Ethan Sawyer (05:49)
Right. How did this, before we read it, we're gonna read it here in a minute, but how did the My Desk essay come to be, do you remember?

Amanda McRaven (05:57)
Yeah, I was looking back at the earliest drafts and the student started with. I'm gonna leave a gap. Should I leave out gender? Should I just keep saying the student or is.

Ethan Sawyer (06:10)
Does he, I think he genders himself in the essay. Yeah, he says 12 year old kid became a 12 year old man. So I think we're fine.

Amanda McRaven (06:16)
going back. So this student started with TED Talks as the frame. It was something like, to look at me, wouldn't think I'm a TED Talk guru. What I also love about this essay is I could find everything that he wrote about originally, we found a way to work in, in this really lovely organic way. ⁓

He was also really game for how do I make this more creative? he came, I can't remember if the desk was, I think the desk was on the list of essence objects, but I think he came up with the like, what if I talked about making the desk?

Ethan Sawyer (07:03)
Yeah. Cool. Well, let's read it and let's let folks know what the heck we're talking about. And for those of you listening, if you want to find this, I say you'll find it in the show notes if you want to kind of follow along. But I love your voice. I love your reading voice. Would you be down to just read this for us?

Amanda McRaven (07:17)
Sure. Awesome.

Six years ago, a scrawny 12 year old took his first steps into Home Depot, the epitome of manliness. As he marched through the wood section, his eyes were scrolled past the options. Red oak, no, too ubiquitous. Pine, nah, too banal. Mahogany, perfect. It would nicely compliment his walls. As days went on, the final product was almost ready. 91 degree angles had been perfected to 90. Drawer slides had been lubricated 10 times over.

Finally, the masterpiece was finished and the little boy couldn't help but smile. A scrawny 12 year old kid had become a scrawny 12 year old man. This desk I sit at has not only seen me through the last six years, but its story and the story of the objects I keep on it provide the foundation for my future pursuits.

Ethan Sawyer (08:09)
So I just want to pause real quick and say, yeah, what's your reaction?

Amanda McRaven (08:14)
I mean, I almost laughed reading it and I've looked at this essay hundreds of times. But another thing I just love so much about students when they have access to it is tapping into humor. And this student was particularly good at like self-effacing humor. And so I just love Scrawny 12 year old kid became a Scrawny 12 year old.

Ethan Sawyer (08:36)
I instantly love him and instantly want to know him. it's a quality that I've realized over the years is like, there are essays that do this and essays that don't do this. I don't think every single essay needs to do it, but when it happens and it's good and it's just like, my heart just like bursts open. And I love the launch line right after that of like, this desk I at has not only seen me for last six years, but it's story and the story of the objects. And I'm like, okay.

Provide a foundation for my future pursuits. Exactly. I'm like, here we go. And it sets us up beautifully.

Amanda McRaven (09:07)
And it's one of the best opening paragraphs I've seen an essay work because it already sticks so much about this person into it. Totally. There's so much personality and detail that like if that was the whole essay, you'd be like, that's awesome.

Ethan Sawyer (09:24)
Totally, totally. I didn't know if we were gonna analyze it as we go or at the end. If anybody's feeling frustrated, I'm really sorry, but we were just so excited about this opening paragraph. So I love the little ways that he's signaling his intelligence using words like ubiquitous and banal. And it's subtle, but there's these little signal moments that's giving me trust. Like I trust that this student is making choices. And I'm like, okay, take us wherever.

Amanda McRaven (09:52)
I also love how he says, perfect, it would nicely compliment his walls, like a young interior decorator. Like, ⁓ he's just, like, he's not afraid from the beginning to be like, I'm a nerd.

Ethan Sawyer (10:06)
Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Okay, great. Let's keep going.

Amanda McRaven (10:10)
Second, story of the objects that keep on it provide a foundation for my future pursuits. My trustworthy five-year-old laptop sits in the center of the desk. From accompanying me on my ventures to track null pointer errors in my apps to playing classic Billy Joel after a rough day, my laptop is my first choice vehicle as I drive through a life of curiosity. Whether executing my simulations of stress analysis tests, teaching me how to make an origami lily, or showing me a TED Talk on why different

on why people find it difficult to poop away from home. My laptop has allowed me to find different versions of myself. Though I will probably call myself an engineer someday, my heart is in so many different places. I'm a philosopher, a historian, an economist, a black belt in Taekwondo, a techie, a farmer, a teacher, an inventor, an entrepreneur, a Ted Talk lover, and a sports enthusiast. With each Google search, a new world opens.

Ethan Sawyer (11:05)
I'm going to say let's read to the end and then we'll come back and talk about it.

Amanda McRaven (11:09)
To my left is a stack of books. To earn a coveted top spot in the stack, the winning book has to have taught me a life lesson or made me cry. Currently, the book on top is The Way of the Seal by Mark Devine. Devine's memoir details the training required to become an elite warrior and how that mentality can be applied to success in all aspects of life, social, mental, physical, and spiritual. Like Devine, I try to avoid a tunnel vision attitude

and consider the implications of my actions on society at large as a leader and a role model. While running my company, a nonprofit that Kindle's interests stem around the world, I've been particularly guided by the principle of leading from the battlefield. This mantra of collaborative leadership helps me facilitate many processes, from managing social media to collaborating with potential investors. I'm also reminded to sometimes take a step back in the midst of a crisis and let the universe give me answers.

To the right of the books is a bead bracelet, identical to the ones my parents and brother wear. When I look at it, I remember my parents' secret sign language as I stood on the stage of FBLA Nationals. One thumbs up means remember to breathe. Two thumbs up means remember to smile for photos. Regardless, I forgot to smile for the photo. When I look at the bracelet, I also see my little brother tugging on me, asking me countless questions as I repair my cube-stacking robot. What's that weird-looking spinny thing?

It's obviously a 0.81 pound, five millimeter shaft diameter, 5,700 RPM, 35 ounce install torque, 22 amp stall current, brushless DC motor, duh. One day you'll find me at a corner office somewhere running a couple of different tech startups, but the desk I'll be sitting at is the same one. I never want to forget that at heart, I'm a confident, skinny little nerd, unafraid and eager to take my next Home Depot trip. Just delightful.

Ethan Sawyer (13:05)
OMG

Amanda McRaven (13:06)
OMG. Just so juicy.

Ethan Sawyer (13:12)
There's so much here. Yeah. I'm glad we read through the whole thing, because I would have stopped every sentence.

Amanda McRaven (13:18)
I know. Okay.

Ethan Sawyer (13:20)
So let's zoom back big picture. We've got an essay that starts off the desk is introduced. And then he says the story and the story of the objects pair. We'll get into the paragraphs in a second, but paragraph two is about the laptop. Paragraph three is about the stack of books. Paragraph four is the bead bracelet. And then we've got the short conclusion. So that's just to sort of give everybody the 35,000 foot view. So let's zoom into paragraph two. What do you notice in this laptop paragraph?

Amanda McRaven (13:47)
What I love about this is so it's tricky for students to write about laptops. You usually have cell phones or laptops on his essence objects list and it's it's tricky. And so I do remember early on being like, all right, tell me more about this. Yes, it's part of your life, but it's also part of every other student's life who's doing it. So I challenged him like why should we use the laptop? And what I love about that second paragraph is that.

curiosity value like he shows you in the syntax in the way he's put the sentences together. The curiosity it just like curiosity just like leaps out at you. I also love another thing not all students can do but if you can do it while you should is lists. Yeah and this came from like he had so much good stuff. I remember challenging him.

Ethan Sawyer (14:37)
Yeah, totally.

Amanda McRaven (14:44)
to get lists in here and not being afraid of. So this, I'm a philosopher story and I remember that coming from me. I'm like, can you just list all the stuff that you are, that you identify as? And he's like, really? was like, yeah, go for it. And there's something so delicious about that list. all of, I also think this this essay is such a good example of like you do these essence objects and like, I think he jammed like every essence object in, you know, like.

It's all in there because he had the skill to really be able to not make it just sound like a list. Because he's playing with sentence varieties, playing with rhythm, he's playing with word choice. I just think it's such a delightful manifestation of curiosity.

Ethan Sawyer (15:33)
Totally. And I think that that quality is a really important anchor for the whole paragraph. Because I think otherwise it could feel like, wow, this is a lot and it goes in lot of different directions. that word curiosity, which anchors us at the end of the second sentence, which I'm going to reread, from accompanying me on my ventures to track null pointer errors in my apps, which is signaling in one direction, intellectual curiosity, to playing classic Billy Joel after a rough day.

which is totally not something that you would put on your activities list. And I just want to say to students who are lots of activities and you're like, how do I stand out? Include random stuff that would never be in your activities list. Like the fact that you listened to Billy Joel also is going to score bonus points. think.

Amanda McRaven (16:17)
If you're 18 and you've mentioned Billy Joel

Ethan Sawyer (16:20)
And I'm not saying that these should all be techniques that every student should do, but I think it's part of like, if I'm tracking for like, what's endearing me to this author, it's little details, little moments like this. And then he says, my laptop is my first choice vehicle. As I drive through a life of curiosity, there's a beautiful, like in the Shakespearean sense, like a driving rhythm to the sentence that sort of carries us through. And if you notice that sentence, nobody else is going to write that sentence. Right. ⁓

Amanda McRaven (16:45)
Nope.

Ethan Sawyer (16:48)
For students who listening, I want to just encourage you to like write sentences that no one else would write. And, you know, in fact, when you hear this, when we're reading these, you'll see that's true for many of the sentences. And I think it's especially true if you're writing about something like your dang laptop.

Amanda McRaven (17:04)
And it's not about the laptop. That's other thing I always talk to students in montage. Like it's your topic is not your laptop. Your laptop is a way into what you're really trying to say to your values. So I think that's what the student was able to really get underneath. Like ask the why.

Ethan Sawyer (17:23)
Totally, totally. The other thing, I love the list too, there's one of the things that we'll sometimes do and also encourage is like just brainstorm broadly, like whatever 10 things that could go in and this is useful in like the short answers and stuff. And then choose a few of them to show just a variety of things. So it's sort of like you're bringing the little sampler platter of this side of you. But I love.

Amanda McRaven (17:45)
to include the word poop. We have to mention that.

Ethan Sawyer (17:49)
mean,

that's a calculated risk that students would be like, can I do that? And I think it's great. I mean, I think it's great. there's, you know, did he ask about it? I don't know if you remember any.

Amanda McRaven (18:00)
I think he was like, can I put this in? And it is a Ted talk. you students, if you're listening, hope you've already Googled, but if you haven't just Google Ted talk, pooping away from home. It's a real Ted talk.

Ethan Sawyer (18:14)
He subtly then weaves in his future major, which I think is, I think students sometimes were like, how do I do that? He says, though, I'll probably call myself an engineer someday. And it's fine to say probably. My heart is in so many different places. And then he's got this long list of roles and identities. And even before I was on the roles and identities tip. And if you follow the podcast or are YouTube videos, you've seen me talk about this. I looked back at this essay and I was like, yo, roles and identities. It was there all along. ⁓

Amanda McRaven (18:18)
Yes!

Ethan Sawyer (18:44)
So there's so many different sides of himself that he brings forward, all of which are manifestation of his curiosity. So if you're, so here's a quick, like what you can learn from this. If you're gonna go all over the place in a paragraph, what can you anchor it with? You know, what's gonna ground us so that we kind of go, okay, that's the mini lens within the larger lens of this essay, you know? And then he's got these long sentence. And then like you said, it goes to a short one with each Google search, a new world opens.

And it makes me excited about what other worlds he might explore.

Amanda McRaven (19:18)
Yeah, absolutely. And another thing just along that is it's important for students to remember how readers are reading these essays, right? They're reading so many. And so, you know, if you're varying your sentence structure, that you're going to rhythmically shake up their day and they're going to read more closely. So playing with how you are playing with rhythm is really important.

Ethan Sawyer (19:44)
Yeah. And what's nice about this little tiny sentence here is it's a little moment that gives us some context for reading that long list of identities. Teacher, inventor, entrepreneur, Ted talk lover, and a sports enthusiast pause. He could have ended the paragraph and just gone to the next object, a stack of books, but he gives a tiny little, so what that's like eight words long with each Google search of new worlds that world opens. And I want to just say to students like, that's such a nice, I think key moment at the end of a paragraph. You shared a lot of stuff.

We wanna know what the impact on you, like give us a way to read that, give us a way to look at it.

Amanda McRaven (20:19)
Absolutely.

Ethan Sawyer (20:22)
So to his left is a stack of books and he focuses in on this book, The Way of the Seal by Mark Devine. A lot to talk about in this paragraph. What do you notice? What do you zero in on here?

Amanda McRaven (20:33)
So this came from his nonprofit was really important to him. I think this is a great example of writing about an activity from your activities list that you're gonna write an extracurricular essay about. But you really wanna mention it in your main statement because it felt inauthentic to him. He's like, well, I have to talk about this as part of my identity. So then the challenge was it cannot overlap with what you're gonna say in an extracurricular essay.

And he did a beautiful job with that. think the other thing he did a beautiful job with was like. The way of the seal might be considered sort of a typical book. Like it's a self-improvement. Like a lot of students are going to read like self-improvement books, but he was able to really concretely connect it to what he's doing. I love that the two criteria taught me a life lesson or made me cry. So there he's getting into vulnerability.

Ethan Sawyer (21:31)
A little bit, yeah.

Amanda McRaven (21:32)
Yeah, which we're not expecting. We think it's going to be more about life lessons. like that. I think he does a really good job. Also not. I looked at an early draft and he was talking a lot about Mark Devine, so I think that's students will fall into also. So he said, Devine's memoir details the training required to become an elite warrior and how the mentality can be applied to success in all aspects of life.

social, mental, physical, and spiritual. That's not really a book report sentence. That's a like, these are the values that are important to me, and Divine talks about that. Then like Divine, I try to avoid a tunnel vision attitude and consider the implications of my actions as a society at large as a leader and a role model. Again, just really like really good insights there. Like what's the deep personal connection?

to what he's reading.

Ethan Sawyer (22:32)
The thing that he's doing there, two things. One is that he's trimmed the book report, as you called it so rightly, to one sentence, basically. And that's, again, side note to students, if you're gonna talk about someone else that's important to you in your life, your coach, your grandma, this book, this place, give us one sentence, you know what I mean? Just give us the bare bones context and let it do double duty for you.

by weaving in values. So here's what success means to me in all these different areas. And then he zooms in on this notion of like, trying to avoid this tunnel vision attitude and considering the implications of his actions on society at large. What he's doing there too, is he's setting up for the mention of the nonprofit. So for students wondering, how do I weave in my extracurricular activities? Give us a value, something to focus on, you know, like a magic trick, know, which we'll get into in little bit.

Give us something to focus on here. So we're looking at that. ⁓ considering your applications of society at large. Cause it, what it does is it, I think raises a, an implicit question for us. It's like, ⁓ how do you do that elsewhere? And then you come in with while running my company, a nonprofit that can do this interest in STEM around the world. And then it's like, okay. Here's an example of where you do that in your, in your world, in your life. And he really just mentions it there. And he doesn't really get into details about the nonprofit. Cause like you said, he's going to go into it elsewhere in his application.

Amanda McRaven (23:59)
And the mantra of collaborative leadership. So he does talk about his leadership style. He also applied, I think, to UCs, but for students doing both, UCs don't see your personal statement. So he could poach from this paragraph in his leadership essay for UCs, where they ask you to talk about leadership style. So just as a side note.

Ethan Sawyer (24:20)
Students who have listened to the podcast, I'll just say counselors, we have this thing that we talk about called admission nutrients. Admission nutrients are qualities that after doing lots and lots of research and talking to admission folks, we find that colleges are really interested in seeing. Two of those qualities are collaboration and leadership. This was written before we sort of found those, settled on those qualities, but combining them is really beautiful here, collaborative leadership. And then again, we wonder, okay,

What are some examples of that? And he says this mantra of collaborative leadership helps me facilitate many processes like managing social media to collaborating with potential investors. So you can notice this back and forth. Sometimes the value or the thing that you want to show is mentioned first and then the examples. And sometimes you've got the examples and then the value. So either of those can work. And then again, so what at the end of the paragraph? So what do you want us to take away? What do you want us to know? know, stick the landing here. He says,

I'm also reminded to sometimes take a step back in the midst of a crisis and let the universe give me the answers. What do you notice about that line?

Amanda McRaven (25:27)
That is the surprising but inevitable. You have always talked about and sticking the landing. I think students will often come in and try to wrap the paragraph up with a repeat, just a restelling of what they've already said. Such a great like, here's what I've been talking about and here's just that bump at the end. Let the universe give me the answers. Not expecting that.

Ethan Sawyer (25:55)
Totally. it seems to me that this is an instance where it's kind of the opposite of what we expect, because we think of leadership oftentimes as like having the answers and knowing and making the decision. And one of the things that I'll sometimes and will sometimes encourage is like, okay, think of the opposite. Like, what are the instances where you don't know or you can't make the decision or you're uncertain? What's the value in the opposite of that? Because that can really show that, know, divergent thinking.

Amanda McRaven (26:24)
Absolutely. And let the universe give me the answers also is a nice transition. We don't know it's a transition yet, but transitions us to a more, the last paragraph is a more contemplative personal space, not about self-improvement or intellectual pursuits.

Ethan Sawyer (26:43)
Yeah. What do you notice in this paragraph? The bead bracelet with brother, with family.

Amanda McRaven (26:50)
So a big thing in working on montages is the three, it's usually three, sometimes it's four. The sections are three different sides of you. Mirror ball, three different mirrors on the ball. And so the challenge here was like, all right, what is another side of you we have not talked about at all that we wanna show? And B. Brace that was on his object list and he was like, my family's really important to me.

I think this paragraph is great for students to look at because a lot of students will write about family. And if that's really important to you, you should write about family. How do you write about your family? ⁓ And I think he does a beautiful job here about the value of support. That he shows it. So show, don't tell. Also a beautiful example of showing, not telling.

Ethan Sawyer (27:35)
Totally.

Amanda McRaven (27:44)
We're all gonna write about support from our family when we're teenagers. That's what we know. So do that. Awesome. How are you showing it? What does it look like specifically in your family?

Ethan Sawyer (27:57)
And there's something here that's a screenwriting technique and it's called the private moment. And you'll see them see this in movies where a character like has a thing where they experience it publicly and then they shut the door behind them and you see them like in the bathroom or whatever and they just break down or they open the note and they read it and they react. And what it does for us as viewers, or in this case as readers is we're in the secret world with them. And so what he's doing is he's bringing in us to his.

him and his parents secret sign language. And we're getting to see that one, like he's translating one thumb up, remember to breathe, which is just really endearing. And two means remember to smile for the photos. And then he does that self-effacing humor again, regardless. I forgot to smile for the photo. So if this is a technique that I don't talk about a lot, but it's like, if there is, I mean, kind of an essay is like a private moment. Like that's the whole deal with the personal statement, but

It's sort of a personal, you know, it's a private moment within the private moment of a personal essay of like, here's something that not many people know about. And it's the secret language and you can feel their love for each other the way they care for one another.

Amanda McRaven (29:03)
Yeah. And I remember this being a tricky one to try to get underneath cliches of family. I think this paragraph took the most work out of the three of them. Like, what specifically happens with you and your family?

Ethan Sawyer (29:18)
Yeah, that's good to know because I think sometimes people think these just kind of show up and it's just like, yeah, he just like wrote this.

Amanda McRaven (29:27)
Yeah, this was a lot of drafts. it's like a lot of the process, the gardener processes, how are we getting underneath what's there? This is awesome. Great. Now let's make your story of your family stand out from the other person's story of their family. Same value, right? You're going to need a million essays. Read a million essays about family support as a value. Right. And how you show it. Stand out for your

Ethan Sawyer (29:32)
Yeah.

And I like that there's both his parents supporting him and then he flips it in the second half of the paragraph. His brother asking him countless questions about as he repairs his cube stacking robot. And there's, he's doing two things. He's doing intellectual curiosity and then he's undercutting it with humor again. So the intellectual curiosity is when he's explaining it in this sort of effortlessly, you know, jargon filled brilliant way. That's another thing is like, can you show effortless brilliance somewhere? And he shows effortless brilliance and then ends it with that word, duh, which is just a single sentence.

Amanda McRaven (30:18)
Yes.

Ethan Sawyer (30:25)
What's that weird looking spinny thing and that even that opposite of like, here's the way that my little brother sees this and here's the smarter, you know, more adult version of what this thing actually is. And then he undercuts it again. there's, there becomes a theme of humor throughout.

Amanda McRaven (30:42)
started that I think it originally was like it's a blank motor and because he had already set up the theme of nerd I was like can you really nerd out on that and he had no problem doing that and I don't think students should be afraid of jargon either again you want to you want to make sure your readers on the journey with you but if you know a lot of really specific stuff about a specific thing get it in there

Ethan Sawyer (30:55)
Great.

Yeah. And he shows self-awareness about it. So this is something that I've just been watching Avatar with Zola. And one of the things that I noticed in that film is all the moments where somebody gets a little too woo and a little too into sort of the spirituality, you've got somebody undercutting it and being like, yeah, right. Or making some kind of joke about it. And what that does is that it provides for the polarity of experience and of reactions. And as viewers in Avatar, we're like,

Okay, I don't totally have to buy into this thing. So if anybody's feeling uncomfortable, their view is represented, but maybe in a more extreme way, because we're all going to fall somewhere in the middle. So we're all going to either, you know, kind of understand the geeky part or, you know, be in the idea. What he's talking about. We're all somewhere in the middle. And by showing, by, by doing something that sort of gives us a meta perspective on the thing, it's an interesting, simple little technique to do, but it gives a little breathing room so that the reader doesn't feel.

Like they're having to buy into or that they're feeling distanced from because they're saying that you have some perspective on your own nerdiness.

Amanda McRaven (32:13)
You're acknowledging it. I've never looked up what any of that stuff means. I wouldn't look it up in the moment, because it didn't matter. As the reader, I was like, I don't care what this means. The point is not for me to understand what it means. The point is for me to know that you know it means, and you're laughing at yourself.

Ethan Sawyer (32:20)
Doesn't matter.

You know what it means,

Totally. So here he ends with one day you'll find me in a corner office somewhere running a couple different tech startups. Again, casual brilliance. Yeah, just, just casual, but the desk I'll be sitting at is the same one. I never want to forget that at heart, I'm a confident skinny little nerd, unafraid and eager to take my next home.

Amanda McRaven (32:38)
Drop it ⁓

I would bring it back to the beginning.

Ethan Sawyer (32:51)
And

it's so satisfying. It's so satisfying to come back. We reach out to the student to ask, hey, could we use this? Do you remember what he said about the desk and the email?

Amanda McRaven (32:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, I did. said, you because he's graduated already. So I was like, I wonder if he has his desk at his like real grown up house. He's like, no, it's at my parents' house. I was a little sad, I have to say. But you know what? When he's our age, he's going to have that desk with him.

Ethan Sawyer (33:17)
I hope so. I hope because of this podcast, he will have that task.

Amanda McRaven (33:21)
I don't get it. When you start to get really nostalgic for your childhood.

Ethan Sawyer (33:26)
Yeah. In fact, if he ever listens to this, I wonder if you would send me a photo of that desk. Cause if so, we'll just include it.

Amanda McRaven (33:32)
Yeah, I'd love to see a photo at the desk. I mean, I saw it in a zoom screen. He would like show me stacks of books because he really does. The other thing is he really does have these things on his desk. stack of books really live there and the bead bracelet. So it was delightful. Like this essay has never left me. The process was so wonderful. Working with a student was so wonderful. He was truly one of my favorites. And it just like swims in me. I show it.

all the time, because I think it's so deeply creative, but it's also accessible for because again, the student would not consider himself a creative writer. I think especially if you're a STEM student trying to access an essay that's clearly written by somebody who whose talent is creative writing, you don't know your way in. I want students to know here is like the way in was like the stuff that he's already good at.

And then, you know, it was just process of guiding him to trust putting all of that in there.

Ethan Sawyer (34:35)
Yeah. Helena on our team talks about how this is like, this feels like I love, she loves showing this to students because it's like, you can do this. Like you can talk about just the objects in your room. And I think what it takes is besides the things you mentioned already, I think it takes the willingness to be able to write a couple of drafts to like, keep going, to keep going. Because if you stop at draft one or two, you know, it'll be fine. Probably some sentences that are going to be in somebody else's essay, but you know, it just goes to show what.

you know, sticking to it and continuing to refine and then, what's the next detail? What's something more specific? Yeah. What that can yield.

Amanda McRaven (35:10)
And every paragraph of this for students to know started off as more general. That's always what happened. And then we were digging inside to see what we could access.

Ethan Sawyer (35:21)
All right, let's pivot to the second essay. This one again has no title and you don't need titles in your essays. We refer to it as magic because that's the theme in it. And yeah, I think let's just jump into it. I'd love to just read it and then we'll talk about it.
Amanda McRaven (35:35)
Yeah.

Ethan Sawyer (35:36)
I think so. Yeah, I loved hearing you read the other one. I've read this one a lot before, so I'd love to hear you read it.

Amanda McRaven (35:42)
I've been dabbling in the dark arts for five years. My weapon of choice, a set of bicycle cards. Blue if I want to draw attention to the faces, red if I want my audience to focus on the backs. Though my tricks start the same way, square up the deck with my left hand, ask my spectator to shuffle, each then takes on a life of its own. Sleight of hand, mathematical and self-working, or a combination. After watching Matt Franco perform on America's Got Talent five years ago, I was hooked on the thrill of the unexplainable in card magic.

I wondered why people liked magic so much and rather than sit and ponder, I decided to follow my curiosity into the world of magic itself. When first learning the double lift, I watched tutorials for endless hours on end, constantly rewinding to determine exact thumb positions and wrist motions, fascinated by the nuanced distinctions between success and failure. Eventually I grew dissatisfied with the full magic routines I saw. They weren't my style.

Not enough audience interaction, not enough intense sleight of hand distractions. I decided to develop my own tricks. My first original was a big one. Transport a randomly chosen card from the deck into a sealed basketball. I stayed up late every night for three weeks, planning out every wrist turn and card palm. The thrill of sacrificing my sleep and health for something that was my own and finally seeing the finished product made me fall in love with inventing.

And my love for inventing and exploring didn't stop there. I once spent three days studying the science behind rock, paper, scissors. For example, searching for logic behind why humans play as they do and discovered why two thirds of males choose rock on their first turn and why people on a losing cycle almost always choose rock, then paper, then scissors. In my junior year internship, I saw that my mentor was always late to meetings because of his chronic knee pain. After hearing his story and struggles with the healthcare system,

I was inspired to come up with a solution to my mentor's knee problems. I worked with a team to create a smart sleeve, a wearable device that aids post-surgery healing by monitoring a knee's activity and sending doctors weekly reports. As a kid who's always loved science, I use my scientific inventions to satisfy my urge to explore the unknown. Not content to pursue inventions simply for the sake of it, I also invent to make people happy.

Cooking three course meals is my way of spending uninterrupted time with my parents. When we have cause for celebration, I grill veggie burgers topped with my signature Sriracha sour cream sauce. When we want to relax, I whip up fluffy scrambled eggs on sourdough bread with veggie turkey. Food, like magic, is my offering to my community. Even when I started, magic has never been just a hobby. Each new trick, each discovery has been an essential way I bring vivacity into my life.

But of all my tricks, my favorite is this essay. I said before I use blue cards to focus the audience on faces, red to focus them on backs. The words in this essay have been my red cards, and performing magic is the part I've made you focus on. You've just been fooled by a classic misdirect, for although magic has been my life for so long, what I dream of doing professionally is becoming a neurosurgeon. And magic has actually played a big role in this. It has led me to explain to questioning why people make the choices they do.

taught me to approach life with attention to detail, dexterity and care, and has inspired me to invent with passion. I'm addicted to the adventure and journey of making my own creations, something I will continue to do vigorously in the ever evolving field of neuroscience.

Ethan Sawyer (39:21)
What?

Amanda McRaven (39:22)
Delightful! ⁓

Ethan Sawyer (39:24)
So good.

Amanda McRaven (39:26)
This has a cool lineage because I don't know if you're going to put it on the podcast. put in the show notes. The lineage of this is the endodontics essay. He loved that. And if you look at them side by side, you can see how he was inspired to not talk about the thing he wanted to do till the end, lead you down this path and then bring it in. So I love that lineage also.

Ethan Sawyer (39:36)
I so.

Yeah. And to give context for folks who are listening, there's, there's a essay that was in college essay essentials in this book I wrote where the student sort of surprise reveals his career at the end, spoiler alert, it's endodontics in the, in the second edition, it's called the perhaps an engineer essay. Cause I didn't want to give away the, but, but yeah, but there's this sense and just to again, zoom up, like the student is essentially revealing different qualities along the way. And then he surprises us with.

And it's all added up to something different. What's different about the endodontics essay is that there's no sort of main thing to focus on that's doing the misdirect. The endodontics essay is sort of just taking us wandering through his life. But this one gives us a full theme, a satisfying theme that we're enjoying and like relishing. And then suddenly, you know, he pulls back the curtain and it's like, what? You've been doing this whole other thing all along. And it's so satisfying.

Amanda McRaven (40:49)
So satisfying. I guess we should talk about the essay first, but my brain also jumped to like the comparisons between the two essays and how they're telling similar stories.

Ethan Sawyer (40:59)
Yeah, yeah, go. you, what do you know?

Amanda McRaven (41:02)
A thing that popped out for me was I haven't read these aloud side by side in a long time, but he's also talking about his family, right? Which we were just saying with the other essay family and support same point what he so the other student is using the sign language and he's using food. They're saying the same thing. This is how we connect with each other. This is how we take care of each other. Yeah, totally different metaphor. That's

That's what I want all students to know is like you all have the same values, similar values. You all have the very similar life experiences, but what is your way in and how are you writing about it?

Ethan Sawyer (41:45)
Yeah. How does it find expression in the world?

Amanda McRaven (41:47)
That is the finest brush in the world, yeah.

Ethan Sawyer (41:49)
Yeah, there's so much. This first line even. I've been dabbling in the dark arts for five years.

Amanda McRaven (41:55)
think he just dropped that in. was trying to remember back, I think. And I was like, here we go. Like one of the best hooks of all time.

Ethan Sawyer (42:02)
Yeah, I love it. Will you give us, is there any more context that you can remember from working through this process about, know, he liked this essay, obviously doesn't want to copy it and make it sound too similar, but, you know, tell us just any other context you can give about the process of him writing this piece.

Amanda McRaven (42:18)
It did not start this way at all. It started with a list of activities and magic was one of them. Obviously, you see the values of curiosity and invention and exploring. I was looking back at my old notes. I have a note saying thread magic through each paragraph. I think he had been talking about tricks. That came up for me as that each trick takes a different approach.

each trick as a way to examine something else in your life. I'm trying to go back and looking at like this old draft from like

Ethan Sawyer (43:00)
As you do that, can I just ⁓ shout out some things that I love about the start? So he says, I've been dabbling in the dark arts for five years and the, the ending, the reveal is in the second paragraph. He buries it. My weapon of choice is set up by school cards blue. If I want to draw attention to the faces red at home audience to focus on the backs. So he's telling you the trick. He's telling you what he's going to do before he does it. Of course, it's subtle. You won't know it until later.

You know, though my tricks start the same way each then takes on a life of its own sleight of hand, mathematical and self-working or a combination. What I love that this student is doing is he's again, like the other student, he's showing values from the start and he's weaving in a little bit of like, you know, in this case, jargon connected to the thing that he loves, squaring up the deck, you know, and he's also weaving in things that he loves mathematical and self-working. So

He's already giving jargon so that we sense that he knows some stuff about some stuff. And what it does for me is that it builds trust like right away. I'm like, he knows what he's talking about when it comes to this. And I think this is, I'm big on screenwriting today. This is another thing with when you first meet the character, in this case, when you first meet the speaker, the author, that's when you're really, you you're creating that first impression that's going to live with us. And in this case, it's building trust that he knows some stuff about magic. He doesn't need to wait till paragraph three to reveal that.

Boom. In the first, you know, 50, 60 words we get that he knows what he's talking about. And then he gives us in a little mini origin story with Matt Franco decided to follow my curiosity, explicit mention of value. I watched tutorials for endless hours on end. Another value of meticulousness, sticking with it, constantly rewinding, you know, to determine the exact thumb positions, fascinated by the nuanced distinctions between success and failure.

Amanda McRaven (44:47)
doing a similar thing to what the other writer is doing, like showing you attention to detail. Yeah. What he's doing was he talks about finding the wood for his desk. Here it's like, do I go with thumb this way or this way? What are the nuances? So again, same things are going on. It's how we're writing about it.

Ethan Sawyer (45:07)
He's doing that private moment thing again, too. And so this is something else is like, I want to get inside your brain. I want to kind of like read the journal of your brain and know what it's like to see the world through your eyes, through your perspective and the specifics of it. And we sometimes call this, you know, I want to see your movie. I want to see like, what is it when you look at magic tricks, what do you see that I don't see when you're at Home Depot and you're looking at the woods? I don't know the difference between Oak and mahogany.

But you do, and I love knowing that you do or even did as a nine year old, you know, like those sort of little details helped me see, ⁓ here's somebody that I'm going to be able to like learn from. that the people in my community on a college campus are going to be able to learn from.

Amanda McRaven (45:52)
Yeah. He started, looking back at the drafts, he started like much more straightforward, like here's a value and that's what I'm going to use this. So he's, had like the value of coordination, the value of social perceptiveness, the value of complex problem solving. So that's how he eventually found those montage paragraphs, but they were much more, again, just back to what we saying before, like there's a long process to get here.

Ethan Sawyer (46:20)
Yeah. But it starts with these raw materials, right? The raw material of the values. And then we go, okay, how does this manifest itself with specifics? I love when he jumps to in the next paragraph. So we're on the third paragraph now. Eventually I grew dissatisfied with the full magic routines I saw. They weren't my style. He says, why I decided to develop my own tricks. Now that leap shows another one of those admission nutrients of initiative of him taking a step to create something for himself.

Amanda McRaven (46:23)
Cheers. Yeah.

initiative, yeah.

Ethan Sawyer (46:49)
And he's setting up a quality that he doesn't name explicitly until the end of the paragraph. He gives a specific example of it, but then he says it, made me fall in love with inventing, which is going to become a big theme in next, basically the next half of the essay. And it's going to ultimately lead us to, you know, STEM stuff. But he says, love for inventing. So he repeats the word in case we missed it, didn't stop there. He tried to study rock, paper, scissors, and he teaches us some really cool things.

I want you to know, I think of this every time I play play rock paper scissors. Now I'm like, if I'm playing against ⁓ a dude, I'm like, this person's probably gonna go rock first and invariably, I'll say about two thirds of the time it happens. Or if we kind of get off course, I think, okay, did this person just go rock paper or scissors? Cause sometimes it just because that's the way the title goes, someone will go to the next one. So I, it's, my point is here is that like,

He's taught me something and only has taught me something, but it's like stayed with me over the years.

Amanda McRaven (47:52)
Absolutely. I remember working on this essay too. was like, don't tell me I do the trick. Don't tell me to do the trick. It's like, I love magic and I didn't want to know. And I think he does a really good job of like bringing us in and like taking us to the edge of like getting his thing, but he's not going to tell you all the way. Like it, this is a good example of like a really niche thing that everybody's interested in. But

you're not giving us too much information about it.

Ethan Sawyer (48:27)
Yeah, I love that too. Yeah. There's this moment. again, notice that how he's varying up his quote unquote activities. Some are activities that would definitely appear on the activities list and some are rock paper scissors. So he's given us this fun one, rock paper scissors. And then he transitions and he's given us the value of inventing. And he transitions in my junior year internship. I saw my mentor was late to meetings because the chronic knee pain. So I created this cool thing and it's a couple of sentences.

But it shows that quality at work. And I think what he buys us with the rock paper scissors one is a little bit of like, if he had just been like, love inventing and he just listed three incredible inventions, I would have been like, this could have been your activities list, but he's putting in a little bit of, I don't know what food metaphor you want to use, but like something to like, you know, the way that I think of this is like throwing us to forget the food thing, throwing us off the scent of like making it so obvious that he's weaving in his extracurricular activities. He's giving us something that's just like,

Amanda McRaven (49:10)
No.

Ethan Sawyer (49:26)
fun and playful and just like, you know.

Amanda McRaven (49:31)
Yeah, and so connects to the value of exploring the unknown and then supporting community that's coming. So it's not an activity for the sake of activity. It's an activity that was really important to him that he wanted to make sure he talked about. But again, like the first writer, it's folded into the bigger story. And I'm sure he wrote an essay about the smart sleeve, but just this little hint at it. Then I also feel like

It's like you're dropping a seed for your reader where the reader also is like, cool. I'm probably going to get to read an essay about this after a personal statement.

Ethan Sawyer (50:08)
How did you get through two essays on STEM without a mention of Legos?

Amanda McRaven (50:14)
Right? So many Legos.

Ethan Sawyer (50:18)
By the way, to the makers of Lego, I know that it's supposed to be Lego and not Lego. So I just want to name that I know that. But for those of you who are watching and listening in here, like I'm a STEM student, notice no mention of Lego in here. It's the joke, the in the sort of inside joke here is that it's just such a common thing and such a thing. I I played with Lego, you probably many of the people listening to that. But when you're thinking about like what inspired you early on in life,

And what are some of the unconventional things? A simple thing that you can do is make a big list of what are the 15 to 20 STEM related activities or things that you've done and put robotics on there, you know, put Lego, put all the things and then go, okay, which of these maybe isn't going to appear on someone else's list. And maybe it's rock paper scissors, or maybe it's a student a couple of years ago had a Cheetos making like a Cheetos delivery machine during the pandemic.

that they created so that they would send when people would come up to their house, they would, it would just deliver Cheetos out. And I was like, that's, that's a pretty good one. That's an uncommon invention.

Amanda McRaven (51:28)
I time with the things that I work with so many students who they don't even put in their brainstorming or it doesn't occur to them early on this really quirky, interesting thing that they do. But it's not going to be the first thing that comes up for you. What's a weird thing you do with your friends? And we accomplish the same value that LEGOs accomplishes, probably.

Ethan Sawyer (51:54)
Right. And that to me speaks to like the value of spending a lot of time brainstorming. And by a lot, I mean more than 20 minutes. I mean, spend that hour and a half, spend that three hours, whatever it is, and have fun with it. And for many students, that doesn't sound like lot of fun, like spending three hours writing. I mean, you're basically, if you have the right prompts and you've got a little bit of, I don't know, a little bit of time set aside,

It can actually be kind of fun to be like, okay, what are all these different sides of me? We'll link in the show notes to some fun brains, terming exercises, but it's in that this Caitlin on our team all says, like, I love this phrase, like give yourself the luxury of a writing process.

Amanda McRaven (52:40)
Yeah, yeah.

Ethan Sawyer (52:42)
because it's in that sort of time that you spend where you find stuff like the Cheetos delivery thing or the rock paper scissors. And if you just rush to pick the first topic and get this thing done, you might get lucky, but you might not come up with some of these things like my signature Sriracha sour cream sauce.

Amanda McRaven (52:59)
And I don't, you know, I think there's a lot of students write about cooking also. And I think this is a good example of getting really specific about it's not just cooking, but again, it's invention that serves community.

Ethan Sawyer (53:13)
Totally. Yeah. It's family, it's community, it's connection, it's invention, it's experimentation. You he says, I love this cooking three course meals is my way of spending uninterrupted time with my parents. Yeah. We have cause for celebration. Yeah.

Amanda McRaven (53:28)
And even just like sourdough bread with veggie turkey, like that's just another little dropping in a little thing about who he is, that he's a vegetarian, you know, like it doesn't matter, but it's interesting to the reader. Details are interesting.

Ethan Sawyer (53:42)
And again, it's like, if we wonder why, like, where is all this leading? Here's an option for your insight at the end of the paragraph is like, bring it home with a value. says food like magic. In case you were wondering what the connection was. If you case you were wondering, I'd wondered too far off topic is my offering to my community. It's like, yeah, got it glue. ⁓ and then here at the end, you know,

Amanda McRaven (53:54)
What?

⁓ beautiful.

Ethan Sawyer (54:07)
He's got that beautiful turn. I saw you smile when you were reading it. Each new trick, each discovery has been an essential way I bring vivacity to my life. But of all my tricks, my favorite is this essay. And I'm like, okay, here we go.

Amanda McRaven (54:19)
Love is self-reference in an essay.

Ethan Sawyer (54:22)
Yeah, the words in this essay by my red cards performing magic is the part I've made you focus on. You've just been fooled by a classic misdirect for all of magic has been in my life for so long. What I've dreamed of doing professionally is becoming a neurosurgeon. And this is the sixth sense moment, right? Where we're like, wait, what?

you see dead people like and our brain goes hurtling back to the essay to be like, was this there all along?

Amanda McRaven (54:46)
Yeah. And then you're like, ⁓ yeah, of course, this same skill set.

Ethan Sawyer (54:52)
And if it wasn't there along, you know, connect the details because the reader's probably not going to go back combing through. So he's like questioning why people make the choices they do. So there's connection to psychology taught me to approach life with attention to detailed dexterity and care value, value, value, and inspire me to invent with passion value value. And it's like in that one sentence, here are six values or six skills that are going to serve me in my future career. And it just like goes, ah, we get it surprising and inevitable. was there all along.

Amanda McRaven (55:20)
guys.

Ethan Sawyer (55:23)
And then he mentions his career at the end. Now, what I love about this at the very end, I'm addicted to the adventure and journey of making my own creations, something I'll continue to do vigorously in the ever evolving field of neuroscience. He ends with this particular word neuroscience, which was his major.

that that last word that he lands on, you know, there's this, I don't know if it's called recency bias or something. It's like the last, last thing we hear is the thing that sort of echoes in our mind.

this notion of neuroscience, which reminds us, okay, cool. This is a, you know, yes, this has been an essay about magic, but really it's about his curiosity and how it's going to manifest in the world, including neuroscience. And then it's like, okay, you'll find out more about that in, you know, separate essay.

Amanda McRaven (56:04)
Yeah, absolutely. So delightful. Yeah.

Ethan Sawyer (56:08)
So delightful.

Yeah. And he was so warm too when I reached out to him to be like, Hey, can I use your recipes? He's like, yeah, of course. It's great to hear from you. Yeah. The reflections, final thoughts on this one.

Amanda McRaven (56:17)
Yeah.

I just, just be you. Just like do your thing. And I think, you know, he didn't start doing magic because he wanted to get into college. Started doing magic because he loved it. So I don't know who's listening to this, but if you're at the, you know, if you're younger at the beginning of your journey, or even if you're

coming up to be in your senior year, like what can you do this summer that you're just gonna love doing? Because that's what makes you write about something passionately. I always think about how like Ian McKellen and Judy Dench, they were never like, we're gonna be famous actors. We're just gonna make, theater together in a basement somewhere in England. You just do what you love and it ends up becoming your story.

And I think the most exciting essays are the ones where you really feel the love.

Ethan Sawyer (57:26)
Totally. And it can come from something that's right in front of you too. It's like, well, I've spent a lot of time doing this, but can I really write about it? And I hope this is like a permission giving. It's like, yes, you can even write about something that you just love doing a lot.

Amanda McRaven (57:30)
Right in front of you.

I

used to hear an essay once about skateboarding. I don't even know that it occurred to her before, because she just does it every day. It's just a way to get around.

Ethan Sawyer (57:53)
Maybe we'll do that one. Maybe we'll do another one where we talk about that. Cause I know the one you're talking about. We'll do the part two of this one. We'll do the skateboarding. was saying. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thanks for sitting with me. This so, so fun.

Amanda McRaven (57:57)
which is great.

Yeah, you get bogged down. Like we just closed out Stanford, you know, just it's the end of the season and you get bogged down and they're like the stuff of it. So it's really nice to just revisit these and just revisit the joy. And the process was there. These were not easy, but they they they stuck with it and they really found the joy and the delight.

Ethan Sawyer (58:34)
You know something I haven't asked you is this is year, I don't know, 10 or 12. Like what keeps you coming back to this work?

Amanda McRaven (58:42)
Well, it's actually from the time I started it, it's like year 18. Right. Cause it would have been or 16. It'll keep me coming back is I, I like to be a little guide. like to hold the light for students in a super crazy, stressful time in their life and be just like a weird, hippie lady.

with purple hair, like, you're cool, your story's amazing. And just like help them really. I love, just keep talking about until I see it click. How does that feel for you? Oh yeah, that's really cool, I never thought about that. I still get off on that. I still get off on that moment of me being able to see something the student would never see and then they get excited to write about it.

So it's a brutal process and I think brutal processes need to have heart at the center. They need to have a reminder of why you're doing this. Because on some level, you're telling a story about who you are that's gonna feed you. It's not about getting into college. It's about going through a process to be able to speak.

Speak yourself, speak your truth, speak your joy.

Ethan Sawyer (1:00:13)
Yeah, I really see that in you. And I, you, you do that for me. You you've done that for me ever since we, met years ago and I really appreciate that quality in you. And, I really resonate with it too. It's like, I think of it as spelunking sometimes we're like diving into these caves and we've got these, I think of it too as a little flashlight. We've each got a little flashlight. We're like poking around in the corner. Like what's there? What's there? What do you see? We pick up a rock. What is that? A gem? No, it's just a rock. You know, sometimes though it's a gem.

And it's so like, it's as complex and surprising as life itself. Sometimes even if a little better.

Amanda McRaven (1:00:52)
Yeah, and dance is like life distilled.

Ethan Sawyer (1:00:56)
Yeah,

and it's the meaning making too of the whole thing where we get to like create the stories that we choose.

Amanda McRaven (1:01:05)
That's it, the meaning making, the...

Helping someone to see meaning in what they've experienced that they don't see. Because they're just living.

Ethan Sawyer (1:01:22)
Yeah.

Well, thanks. Thanks for doing this work with me.

Amanda McRaven (1:01:26)
Yeah, thanks for having me on. This is great.

Ethan Sawyer (1:01:33)
Thanks friends, as ever, for listening. You'll find the show notes at collegeessayguy.com slash podcast, including the text of these essays if you want to read them. If you're interested in more from CEG, you can sign up for anything at collegeessayguy.com and we'll share with you our latest free resources, info on upcoming webinars, and lots, lots more. Thanks friends and stay curious.

Amanda McRaven (00:00)
you

Ethan Sawyer (00:02)
you

Hi friends and welcome back to the podcast. So this is a brand new series that we're starting and it's called on becoming the art and craft of personal storytelling. In this series, we'll dig deep into college essays from past students, talk about why we love them and how they came to be. And for me, this title on becoming is not just about the craft of writing, like how a story came to be, but it speaks to what I believe the personal statement is at its best, which is a record of a student's becoming the beautiful sometimes messy, hopefully meaningful process of students learning to better understand themselves and articulate their values and really find their voice in the world. So whether you're a student parent or counselor, I hope you find something meaningful in this series. In this first episode, I sit down with Amanda McRaven, who is one of my dearest oldest friends and happened to be my first hire at college essay guy as an essay coach. Amanda is an artist, a teacher, a director. A storyteller, she lives in the Pacific Northwest and she's a veteran educator with over 15 years experience helping coach students through this college essay process. But what I love about Amanda is her approach to this process. She treats it like an art form and helps students mind their lives for meaning to find those awesome gems in seemingly ordinary moments and help students connect the dots between their experiences. And I love, love working with her. In our conversation, we get into two of our favorite essays. One is called the My Desk Essay. That wasn't the title of it. That's the title we give it to just refer to it. And the other is an essay about magic. So you'll get a little behind the scenes look of how these came to be and we'll nerd out on some college essay stuff as you'll see. And we hope you enjoy. Hi Amanda, welcome to the podcast.

Amanda McRaven (02:07)
Bye! It's good to be here!

Ethan Sawyer (02:10)
I feel really excited to see you. And I wanted to just give a little context for folks about how 10 years ago, now going on 11, I had just started college SA guy and I was like needing some help because I had more students than I could work with. And so I reached out to you. You were my first call. And I know you know this, yeah, happy dance. I know you know this, I just want to say like, thanks for saying yes. And thanks for being my friend and colleague and like, I don't know, midnight texting about an essay person over all these years, because it's been such a ride.

Amanda McRaven (02:52)
It has been a ride. It's a wild. I'm prepped for this. was just looking back over documents and you know, when you're in the water, you don't see it. And but these all these things came back of the early days when, know, we would talk about every essay and have multiple reviews and there I only had, I think, like three kids that first year. So wild to have been part it for so long.

Ethan Sawyer (03:18)
So wild. Well, thanks for, yeah, sitting and appreciating these essays with me for a few minutes. You know, in terms of, in terms of context, we're going to talk about two. neither one of these has a title, by the way. We refer to the first one as My Desk because, well, you'll find out soon. And the second one as Magic. And we were kind of trying to decide, is there a theme here? we think that one of the, well, you tell me, what is it that you saw?

Amanda McRaven (03:50)
Both of these students for me are STEM focus. They were going into STEM careers, but are really tapped into their creativity in these essays. So when you work with a lot of STEM students, as I do, you often have more of a straightforward essay, which is totally fine. These two students in particular, think, wouldn't consider themselves creative, but I think they really, both students did an amazing job finding their creative voice. and showing a unique take. You don't feel like you're reading a STEM personal essay. You're just going on a ride.

Ethan Sawyer (04:30)
Will you say the thing you said about your brand at CEG?

Amanda McRaven (04:33)
Yeah, brand is so background, they probably heard the bio, but my background is theater and creative writing. So my brand at CAG where I've been happily pigeonholed is to work with STEM students on fighting their creativity.

Ethan Sawyer (05:15)
Yeah, so I've always been a gardener, which is like, all right, you've got this awesome list of brainstorming. Let's roll up our sleeves and dig in there. What's popping out for me?

Ethan Sawyer (05:49)
Right. How did this, before we read it, we're gonna read it here in a minute, but how did the My Desk essay come to be, do you remember?

Amanda McRaven (05:57)
Yeah, I was looking back at the earliest drafts and the student started with something like a TED Talk frame. He was also really game for how do I make this more creative? I think the desk was on the list of essence objects, but I think he came up with the like, what if I talked about making the desk?

Ethan Sawyer (07:03)
Yeah. Cool. Well, let's read it and let's let folks know what the heck we're talking about. And for those of you listening, if you want to find this, I say you'll find it in the show notes if you want to kind of follow along. But I love your voice. I love your reading voice. Would you be down to just read this for us?

Amanda McRaven (07:17)
Sure. Awesome. Six years ago, a scrawny 12 year old took his first steps into Home Depot, the epitome of manliness. As he marched through the wood section, his eyes were scrolled past the options. Red oak, no, too ubiquitous. Pine, nah, too banal. Mahogany, perfect. It would nicely compliment his walls. As days went on, the final product was almost ready. 91 degree angles had been perfected to 90. Drawer slides had been lubricated 10 times over. Finally, the masterpiece was finished and the little boy couldn't help but smile. A scrawny 12 year old kid had become a scrawny 12 year old man. This desk I sit at has not only seen me through the last six years, but its story and the story of the objects I keep on it provide the foundation for my future pursuits. My trustworthy five-year-old laptop sits in the center of the desk. From accompanying me on my ventures to track null pointer errors in my apps to playing classic Billy Joel after a rough day, my laptop is my first choice vehicle as I drive through a life of curiosity. Though I will probably call myself an engineer someday, my heart is in so many different places. I'm a philosopher, a historian, an economist, a black belt in Taekwondo, a techie, a farmer, a teacher, an inventor, an entrepreneur, a Ted Talk lover, and a sports enthusiast. With each Google search, a new world opens. To my left is a stack of books. To earn a coveted top spot in the stack, the winning book has to have taught me a life lesson or made me cry. To the right of the books is a bead bracelet, identical to the ones my parents and brother wear. When I look at it, I remember my parents' secret sign language as I stood on the stage of FBLA Nationals. One thumbs up means remember to breathe. Two thumbs up means remember to smile for photos. Regardless, I forgot to smile for the photo. One day you'll find me at a corner office somewhere running a couple of different tech startups, but the desk I'll be sitting at is the same one. I never want to forget that at heart, I'm a confident, skinny little nerd, unafraid and eager to take my next Home Depot trip. Just delightful.

Ethan Sawyer (13:05)
OMG

Amanda McRaven (13:06)
OMG. Just so juicy.

Ethan Sawyer (13:20)
So let's zoom back big picture. We've got an essay that starts off the desk is introduced. And then he says the story and the story of the objects pair. Paragraph two is about the laptop. Paragraph three is about the stack of books. Paragraph four is the bead bracelet. And then we've got the short conclusion.

Amanda McRaven (13:47)
What I love about this is so it's tricky for students to write about laptops. You usually have cell phones or laptops on his essence objects list and it's tricky. And so I do remember early on being like, all right, tell me more about this. Yes, it's part of your life, but it's also part of every other student's life who's doing it. So I challenged him like why should we use the laptop? And what I love about that second paragraph is that curiosity value like he shows you in the syntax in the way he's put the sentences together.

Ethan Sawyer (35:21)
All right, let's pivot to the second essay. This one again has no title and you don't need titles in your essays. We refer to it as magic because that's the theme in it.

Amanda McRaven (35:35)
I've been dabbling in the dark arts for five years. My weapon of choice, a set of bicycle cards. Blue if I want to draw attention to the faces, red if I want my audience to focus on the backs. After watching Matt Franco perform on America's Got Talent five years ago, I was hooked on the thrill of the unexplainable in card magic. Eventually I grew dissatisfied with the full magic routines I saw. They weren't my style. I decided to develop my own tricks. I stayed up late every night for three weeks, planning out every wrist turn and card palm. The thrill of sacrificing my sleep and health for something that was my own and finally seeing the finished product made me fall in love with inventing. My love for inventing and exploring didn't stop there. Cooking three course meals is my way of spending uninterrupted time with my parents. Food, like magic, is my offering to my community. But of all my tricks, my favorite is this essay. The words in this essay have been my red cards, and performing magic is the part I've made you focus on. You've just been fooled by a classic misdirect, for although magic has been my life for so long, what I dream of doing professionally is becoming a neurosurgeon.

Ethan Sawyer (39:21)
What?

Amanda McRaven (39:22)
Delightful!

Ethan Sawyer (57:26)
Maybe we'll do that one. Maybe we'll do another one where we talk about that one. Well, thank you. Thanks for sitting with me. This so, so fun.

Amanda McRaven (57:57)
Yeah, thanks for having me on. This is great.

Ethan Sawyer (01:01:33)
Thanks friends, as ever, for listening. You'll find the show notes at collegeessayguy.com slash podcast, including the text of these essays if you want to read them. If you're interested in more from CEG, you can sign up for anything at collegeessayguy.com and we'll share with you our latest free resources, info on upcoming webinars, and lots, lots more. Thanks friends and stay curious.