401: NACAC CEO Angel Pérez—Self-care for counselors, leaders, and professionals in helping roles

Show Notes

In this episode, I connect with Angel Perez (CEO of the National Association of College Admission Counselors) to discuss his personal journey with burnout, self-care, and therapy. I also share some of my own personal journey, and we connect on what it might mean to find more ease, purpose, and joy in our own lives.

This is part 1 of a series I’ll be doing on self-care this year. You’ll notice Angel mentions a morning routine during our chat — in our next episode (linked here) you’ll meet wellness coach Sage Simpson, who will get into the practical specifics of how to create a morning routine for yourself.  

Why these episodes?

• Self-care has become a bigger theme at CEG in the past couple of years, particularly coming out of the pandemic—and in my own life.

• Anxiety and depression are at an all-time high in students, while counselors, leaders, and educators are burning out and switching jobs (Chronicle of Higher Ed reported on a study by the College and University Professional Association for Human Resources, or CUPA-HR” noting that 71 percent of coordinators and counselors in the college admissions field have been in their jobs for just three years or less.

On the episode you’ll hear Angel and I discuss:

• Angel’s personal experience with burnout

• How he addressed it in writing an article on self-care in college admissions

• Why self-care is especially important for caretakers and professionals in helping roles

• Strategies and techniques Angel (and Ethan) use for self care

• Ways to address shame, and why therapy has been important for Angel

• What to look forward to at the upcoming NACAC conference

Play-by-Play: 

• [00:00] Intro

• [2:34] Who is Angel Perez?

• [4:44] What led Angel back towards self-care in recent years?

• [8:10] How did Angel’s childhood affect his work life today? 

• [10:15] What inspired Angel’s article on burnout? 

• [12:30] What are Ethan’s boundaries and personal habits with work?

• [13:30] How do you recognize when you need self-care, or have behaviors that signal it’s time to step back?

• [15:36] What is Angel’s morning routine? 

• [19:00] How to deal with the shame that comes with self-care

• [21:39] What have Angel (and Ethan) learned in therapy?

• [26:40] Finding balance vs. Coming Into Balance

• [28:50] What are some of Angel’s & Ethan’s other self-care and health practices?

• [32:45] What helps Angel and Ethan get into flow?

• [39:35] What is NACAC and the college admission field doing well, and what could we do better (in regards to self-care, rest, work culture, etc.)?

• [43:45] What is NACAC committed to? What should we look forward to at this year’s conference?

• [46:35] What are we committed to (in regards to increasing access to self-care in our personal/work lives)?/Doing “The Work”

Relevant LINKS:

• Blog post Angel wrote: One CEO’s Story of Executive Burnout

Show transcript

Ethan Sawyer  0:08  
Hey friends, what's up? Ethan saw you're the college essay guy here and welcome back to the podcast. It's been a while. If you're wondering where I've been well, I'll tell you. Last year, I decided to focus more on YouTube videos, because hey, that's what students are watching. And a lot of them aren't necessarily watching podcasts. But I don't know you're listening to right now. So that's cool. And creating more online courses. I think last year, we had like 26, or something online courses, which was rad. But the podcast is back and we're excited to delve into we've got a queue full of different episodes coming up. Some of them have to do with things like planning high school courses, and learning about colleges in particular regions. And we're also going to do deep dives on things like you know, college essays. I'm also excited to welcome a new co host, Tom Campbell. Now, some of you met Tom already, he was on the podcast when he was working in admissions at Pomona. He went to work in the high school setting for a little bit. And now he's back with us and like not just back like as a guest, but like he works at college as a guy, which is so rad. He's been leading webinars, and he's been on our social media, you've maybe seen them if you follow us on Instagram. And he even had a really rad brand new course this year. So this year, Tom and I, we've been talking a lot about things. And we're excited to delve into not just niche topics, but also broader concerns, things that folks are talking about in our world in the college admissions world. One of the big things is self care. And it's something that we've been talking a lot about as a team college essay guy, but it's been a huge thing in my life. Normally on the podcast, you know, I'll break down specific resources and tools that you can use in your own life. But in this episode, I'm talking with Angel Perez, who is the NASDAQ CEO, I'll explain what that means in a minute, about his own journey with burnout and how that led to a deeper commitment to his own personal care. And I share a little bit in this conversation about my own journey with burnout and self care. And this is part one of a series that we're going to do, you'll hear Angel talk about a morning routine that he's instituted. And I thought it would be cool to get more granular with that. So in part two of this podcast, you'll meet Wellness Coach sage Simpson, who will get into the practical specifics of how do you actually create a morning routine for yourself. So why are we doing these episodes? Well, like I said, self care has become a bigger thing in my life and a bigger theme in our organizations life. But also, mental health issues are at an all time high in teens. And with folks who are in helping professions, it's higher than ever and burnout is higher than ever. In fact, the Chronicle of Higher Ed reported recently, there was a study done by the college and university professional association for human resources. And they discovered that 71% of coordinators and counselors in the college admissions field have been in their jobs for just three years or less. So in this episode, like I said, you'll hear us talk about our own journeys, but we'll also talk about why self care is especially important for caretakers and professionals and helping roles if you've never met Angel. He's the CEO of the National Association for college admission counseling, aka NASDAQ, representing more than 25,000 admission and counseling professionals worldwide. Angel grew up poor in Puerto Rico in the South Bronx. He was the first in his family to graduate from college, and he was named for a Forbes article in 2019. As the most influential voice in college admission, he strives to build an educational ecosystem that better represents today's society. Before joining NASDAQ, Dr. Pres served in secondary and higher education leadership, most recently as the Vice President for Enrollment and Student Success at Trinity College in Connecticut. After that, he served as a faculty member at Trinity's Educational Studies Department, UCLA has college counseling certification program and the Harvard Graduate School of education. In 2016, he was chosen by the Gates Foundation and NAS FAA to serve on forward 50, which is a group of higher education leaders presenting solutions to Congress. He's a frequent contributor and commentator in media outlets from the Washington Post, NPR, Forbes, the Atlantic and others. He graduated from Skidmore College got an MA from Columbia, a PhD from Claremont Graduate University. Oh, and guess what? He's a human being who struggles just like you and me. Hi, it's good to see you. I just want to start with that. And I just feel really grateful for you like, spending a little time with me and connecting, who's happy to be here. So one of the things I said to you before we hit record is like, I want to pick up from our conversation that we were having in the lobby in the hotel at the conference, and we were talking about self care. And you were sharing a little bit about your journey over the last. I don't know I mean, you tell me what that how long that journey when that journey started. But I wonder if you could just, I think give some context on When you started thinking about self care as a thing, and whatever context you want to give before that leading up to sort of what I want to call, like, our what I imagine was sort of a realization or a turning point for you.


Speaker 1  5:11  
Yeah, I love the conversation we had in the hotel lobby. This is why conferences are great, you get to connect to mentally with people, I would say probably self care has always been something that I've struggled with, you know, I've always been someone who's hyper and goes 1000 miles a minute and very passionate about life. But I would say where the real lightbulb went off was probably about a year ago, maybe last summer, I would say and, and a part of it is I started as CEO of NASDAQ in July of 2020. And if we can all remember what was happening, then it was not an easy time in the world, right. And so I was busy running an organization and dealing with everything from financial crisis to, you know, we were in the midst of the Trump administration, and lots of issues for educators in particular, the organization needed to meet the moment, right, and I'm proud that we did that. But it came at an incredible cost to me personally. And what ended up happening was that the alarm went off when I started feeling fatigued every single day at 3pm. On the.it, just every single day fatigue, like I am not fatigued, like I'm a little tired fatigue, like I need to go to sleep right now. But in true Angel Perez fashion, I just pulled through and kept going with my meetings and doing all of that. And finally, I decided that I needed to do a little bit of inquiry, and I actually went back to therapy, because I've gone to therapy before and think everyone should at some point in their life. And the therapist said, you know, that's actually called burnout and mild depression, um, because you have been putting off the rest of your life. And so it was a great wake up call for me. And that's when I started to think about how might I do this differently? It I'm happy to be vulnerable with you Ethan and say, like, I'm certainly not perfect. I will say I've had a particular couple of weeks where I feel like I am not doing this. Well, again, I'm going back down that rabbit hole just because of my schedule and the pace. But I'm I'm so much more aware now. And I've incorporated a fair number of practices, including the fact that I meditated before this podcast so that I can be present, and not coming from a budget meeting to talk to you about self care. So I feel good that I am moving in the right direction to use Michelle Obama's words I feel like I am becoming but certainly have not arrived yet.


Ethan Sawyer  7:31  
Yeah, the thing that resonates with me with what you just shared is there's like this sense that I had, like gotten to like a certain point of like, okay, I've got some of this, you know, I'm vigilant enough, or I'm on it. And then last week, I had COVID. And I was like, you know, sick, and there are signs like you need to arrest and how do I medicate? And like, you know, what I could get done during this time. And I jumped into work. And for myself, I saw similar thing where I was like, Oh, this keeps going? Yeah, like, this doesn't just stop isn't like a thing that I just figured out. And the thing that it's put me in inquiry about is where did it start? For myself? And to whatever extent you're comfortable sharing, I'm curious to hear from you. Like, where do you feel like this comes from? Like, what is the you mentioned? The energy, the thing that drives you, that drove you to achieve a lot? What is that thing that has you saying? Yes,


Speaker 1  8:23  
yeah, it's interesting, because I tried to really even pinpoint this down to my childhood, because I have always been a very driven child, even though Yeah, I grew up low income and the projects of the South Bronx originally from Puerto Rico. But even as a child, like, I was like, what student activity can I lead? And what club can I take to the next level, like I was always thinking about leading, and I was always thinking about making a difference. And I'm really, really passionate about this work, right. And so for me, part of what drives me every single day is that this work is personal to me. I feel like it's me getting back to a community of people and professionals who gave so much to me, but also, you know, it's it's top of mind for me, I'm going to my 25th college reunion a week from now, and celebrating the Opportunity Program that admitted me to college. And so, you know, I just think about it deeply. But I think what the challenge that I have, is not letting the pendulum swing too far left or too far, right. And it's okay to be passionate, but not at the cost of being human right, not at the cost of understanding your body's limits, and you know, your body's potential. And so that's where I feel like this learning is happening and some of my friends were calling it when I was talking to them about what was happening to me a year ago. They were like, are you having a midlife crisis? And at first I would say yes, it but what I realized now, in retrospect is is I was having a midlife awakening, right? It was like, Oh, I don't have to live my life this way. Oh, I could do this a little bit different. way, right? And that also most people struggle with this at some point. It's not just CEOs of organizations or people who have huge influence, like the college essay gone, you know, it's everybody who just leads a normal life. And Austin can sort of go off course a little bit.


Ethan Sawyer  10:16  
Tell me about what inspired you to write the post that you wrote. And maybe for folks who didn't read it, you could just share a little bit about what inspired you to start talking about this, and maybe a little bit about what the response was.


Speaker 1  10:28  
So I wrote an article for my professional organization called the American Society of Association Executives ASAE. And it was, I just felt like it was my coming out about burnout. And the reason that I was actually inspired to write it is because I had just looked at the data from a knack X survey that we gave to our members, asking them about what their greatest challenges were. And the number one challenge was burnout. And I thought, I am not alone, clearly. And this is an epidemic that I don't think people are talking about, especially post pandemic, if we can use that word post pandemic. And I just thought, I'm so privileged to have this microphone. Literally, I have a microphone, but also verbally, I have a microphone. And I take that very seriously about what are the issues that I talk about, because I know that when I write something or when I speak that it does get out to a lot of different people. And I thought, if I say something, people are probably hopefully going to resonate. What's interesting about writing an article about burnout is that you then have to answer about 1000 emails from people who say, Me too, but I have to tell you that I was so delighted by it, one because it resonated so deeply. And even two days ago, I was in Atlantic City, New Jersey for the New Jersey PACAC conference. And one of our member leaders pulled me over quietly at the reception and said, Thank you so much for writing that article. Like that article resonated so deeply with me. And if someone like you can be as normal as feeling burnout like us, then we know that we have the right to sort of pause and take a step back. And I can't tell you the number of other CEOs, college presidents who wrote me and said, because of that article, I decided to go back to therapy. Because of that article, I decided it was time for some self care. So I'm glad I did it, because I was a little ambivalent about it at first, because it is vulnerability. But I thought if I've learned something, and I can share some tools about how to manage some of this, then I have a responsibility to do so. Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  12:34  
the thing that I'm curious about is, when I notice that I'm being not great with boundaries, like gonna get I'll give a specific example, when he noticed that I've set a boundary of like stopping work at 5pm. And in my head, I'm like, Hmm, I can just just this once I can work a little bit beyond it. It reminds me of for myself, this is not not putting this on you reminds me of, of addiction. And what I hear I heard about addiction, or when you you know, see people in movies, and they're talking about their addiction does run in my family, by the way, but the


Speaker 1  13:06  
way, we have that in common interests.


Ethan Sawyer  13:09  
Yeah. Alcoholism is sort of like I can just have one drink. Yep. And to me, it seems like I sometimes I'm having that moment where I'm like, I can do just a little bit here. I'm curious for you, if what are those moments or those those instances where you're recognizing that there is the potential to sort of like, take that step toward let's if we just put it on a spectrum of like, self care to like, we'll call it helping others, I'm just gonna broadly, like, you know, working hard overworking slash helping others. What are some of those little things that pop into your head or things that you notice in your own behavior that are a little signals to you that you're maybe on the path to sort of like, you know, slipping or not taking care of yourself?


Speaker 1  13:48  
I think it's almost like I go into this adrenaline mode, and I have a very hard time getting out of that adrenaline mode. And it's usually I just go into such a concentrated mode. I don't even know what time it is, honestly, sometimes I get home, I am drowning in email, because I am in meetings all day long. A goal of mine is to not be in meetings all day long, but maybe someday that will happen. And so then, as you know, you know, every meeting requires follow ups. Every meeting requires reports, every meeting requires some sort of email that has to be followed up with so. So I often go home and I sit on the couch and I look up and three hours have gone by, right? But it's this adrenaline mode, and I'm trying to be better about identifying it. And also doing things like maybe even just putting stop points on my calendar because I get that reminder. Right that it's a B and you probably should stop now. And also, where I've actually been able to make progress is my morning routine. I have not been so great about my evening routine, because I always feel like I have to do more because that way I can get ahead tomorrow. But what I realized is I wake up early in the morning, and I used to immediately pick up my iPad, I have a serious addiction to the iPad, and begin, you know, the email reading Inside Higher Ed, the Chronicle, what should I be thinking about? What should Mac be thinking about? And I still do that. But I don't do it immediately when I wake up, right? So I have a very different routine now in the morning that honors me and realizing this could be the only quiet moment that I have in the day. And part of my goal is what does that look like in the evening? So you can I'll take any advice you have about that.


Ethan Sawyer  15:35  
I just read this. I just read this article that more than 80% of people I think it's maybe more than 89% of folks according to a study in 2023 reach for their for touch their phone within 10 minutes of waking. Oh, easily. Yeah. And I was like, it me? Like, yep, I relate. So we can we before we talk evening school, you just talk through like a little bit about your morning routine and what you've learned works for you. Yeah,


Speaker 1  15:59  
and to be 100% transparent. This is like two months in so I'm not super well practiced. But I'm, I'm committed to keeping it and check in with me when when I see you at the conference and asked me if I'm still keeping it up. But I now wake up. And I do drink coffee in the morning. So I make some coffee. And I go to a spare room that I have in my condo. And I sit quietly. And I will read some sort of book that is inspirational, that could be spiritual in nature, just something that kind of inspires me for the day. And then I will actually go into meditation for about 15 or 20 minutes before I actually sort of rise and say, Okay, I'm ready to face the day, I kind of tried to set intentions for the day. Sometimes when I'm not feeling that I actually write in a gratitude journal. That was another thing I actually picked up. This past summer when I was going through through my fog, I call it a fog. Because I read a lot about gratitude and the fact that gratitude is one of those things that actually leads us closer to joy. And when you start your day off by writing what you're grateful for, like what happened this week or the day before. And then you reflect on that, like even five days later, you're like, oh, my gosh, I live this amazing life, right. And so once a week, I just pause and I read what I've written in the gratitude journal. And it doesn't matter how difficult your day has been, you can't be sad when you realize all the gifts you've been given. Right. So so that's my morning practice. And I try to hold on to that before I start reading. The higher ed news, which these days is pretty depressing. Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  17:35  
totally. I love the gratitude journal thing I'll share in the show notes. There's a little post that I did a few years back around gratitude journaling, but also gratitude walks that my friend Greg and I will do where if imagine, enjoy that you and I are on a walk for a minute. And we're just going back and forth basically sharing what's one thing we're grateful for. And I found that doing this with walking, and doing this with a friend can be a beautifully connected way to just sort of like, you know, get into each other's worlds, and also put us collectively back in that space of like, I love that presence and connection.


Unknown Speaker  18:07  
And so you speak during the gratitude. Well,


Ethan Sawyer  18:09  
totally. Yeah, that's a good question. I suppose we could also do it not speaking. I liked that. I did too. But yeah, the way it would work is sort of like we're on the walk. And I'm thinking and I go, I'm grateful for that. I had a couple of hours this morning with no meetings where I was able to be a choice. And what I you know, what I did go and you know, share a thing. And then we just go back and forth like that. Yeah,


Speaker 1  18:33  
I love that. I think that you and I should go into gratitude walk.


Ethan Sawyer  18:36  
Let's let's Well, if you do one, and we imagine that we're walking what's what's something you're grateful for? And then we will have modeled that for everybody?


Speaker 1  18:43  
Yeah, what's something that I'm grateful for? I'm actually really grateful we're having this conversation. Because one of the intentions i set for this year is that I wanted to have more of these conversations and bring them out of the closet and help people sort of understand how they can engage in some of these practices as well. So tomorrow morning, I'll be writing about this in my gratitude journal.


Ethan Sawyer  19:04  
I like the phrase you use, and I want to double click on it, because I think this notion of being in the closet, which is to say when I know what I think I hear when it when you say that is like there is shame around this feeling. Yes. Yes. Did you experience that? Yeah, I


Speaker 1  19:18  
think so. And there's particularly shame. I think all of us have shame around it. But I think there's particularly shame for people who have what I call front facing jobs, right. People who and the majority of the people in our profession and the majority of school counselors and admission officers that will be listening to this. They are forward facing individuals, right they are they are in the helping professions. And you are supposed to be the helper you were supposed to be the problem solver. I am not supposed to be the person with the issues. I am the person that helps solve the issues. And obviously I take that role very seriously. But what I've come to realize is that I have a huge role. sponsibility to share not overshare, but to share it to our human i to struggle, because I think it inspires others. And I think it creates a sense of responsibility in others. I will say, I also went out and written that article, my staff was the first group that I shared that wisdom said, would be happy to have a conversation. And there were people who just walked into my office and said, Me, too, let's talk about it. Right. And it creates a connection among humans. But I think you're absolutely right in in picking up on that, that I have felt cheap about it in the past. I think I'm beyond that point now, especially because I'm here talking to you and putting it on a podcast. But But I think so many people do, right. And I think as a society, we start need to, we need to start moving in a different direction.


Ethan Sawyer  20:47  
Yeah, it's something as an organization, we've been talking about it college essay guy. And I think that, the more that we've talked about it over the last, I want to say, like, year, year and a half, the more that it's led to practices, like, for example, now when I go in to, like, I go in our Slack channel on the weekends, and it's quiet. Yes. Progress. And I'm also, I also like, don't want to disturb the quiet. So as like a, as the founder, I don't want to like go in there and like, you know, send notes that people will think they have to respond to it. So it's having me actually, it's in a way, holding me accountable, because we set that, you know, somewhat explicit boundary of like, hey, you know, we're not working on weekends, and after a certain hour, and it's, you know, they're flexible in their times when we got to pick something out. But it's rare. It's rare that there are things that are emergencies that need to be, you know, set out at usually after hours. That's great. A question that I have you mentioned therapy, I wanted to share a gem from that I took from therapy. And I wanted to hear a little bit more from like, I like hearing people's gems, like the things that the therapist said that was like life altering potentially, one for me was my therapist said to me, Ethan, do you have unscheduled time? And I was like, I did that expression. I was like, what? And he's like, you know, times when you're not doing anything. I just got a laugh. I was like, why would I have that? Watch? What? No, of course not, you know, and he was like, you might consider that. And I didn't quite know how that worked. And I was like, should I schedule that. And of course, he laughed. And I was like, Well, I was like, you know, I actually could I could just go in my calendar and go, boom, this is two hours where I'm not doing anything. And I tried it at first. And it didn't work to be honest, because I was like, I would just flex it. And I would just like, I would basically like schedule the meeting into it. But what I found that worked for me ultimately, was what I put in my calendar now is what I call deep work time. And it's three hour chunks. And it's usually in the morning. So this is my version of my morning routine. I'll go have breakfast with my daughter, try not to check email. And I'd usually do pretty good on that. Because I know that as soon as I start to check email, the to do is going to start running, and I'm not even there anymore. I'm in another world. Right? So I'm standing with in the world with her. And then I take her to school. And then when I come back, usually it's nine whenever the time I get back nine to 12 is on most days, a deep work time for me. And there's a there's a great book from Cal Newport who talks about this in order to really get things done and get creative projects don't we need this deep work time that isn't when we're in manager mode or putting out fire mode, but it's just like blocked out time. What I'm finding is that I'm actually getting able to get to those projects that I said I wanted to get to, it means that I have less time for meetings, you know, in the afternoon, and things are getting pushed a week or two weeks. But having that time has been life altering for me. And the other thing that I'll do as part of I guess I could call this a routine as I've started to ask myself, Is this a caffeine day or not a caffeine day? Because I find that certain days when I want to get that adrenaline rush. Yeah, a little for me. It's like yerba monta, like gives me that, and I just like, and I love that mode. And I just want to like take a moment to like, acknowledge and honor and celebrate that mode of like getting stuff done. That has led to so much awesomeness in my life. And I imagine in yours. Yeah. But the thing that we're talking about is like the costs of continually living in that mode or continuing to feed that, that mode and trying to live there permanently or for like large chunks of the day or for like weeks at a time. Well,


Speaker 1  24:25  
it's interesting, you would mention weeks at a time because one thing that I realized, and I think this might resonate deeply with the audience, I hope it does one thing that again, through just talking out like my life with with a therapist, I was like well, you know, I grew up in on an academic schedule like for until I arrived at NASDAQ. I was always on an academic schedule. And so really my life was that for nine or 10 months you go and you don't take a break. You just go go go go go go go, go go. And then you collapse and By the time you collapse, you're pretty exhausted and broken, and you need some pretty serious healing. And then you get up and you do it all over again. Right? And maybe my moment, I've had many moments, but one was when she said to me, who said, that's how you would have to live your life? Like, you know, did the universe come down and slap that schedule on you? Like, why are you still living that schedule, right. And it was all of a sudden, the HA, that I have been programmed in a particular way, that this is the way it's done. And by the way, if you're socially engineered by me, it wasn't really because of the institutions that I worked at. But that I thought, you know, take a break, don't breathe until it's all said and done. Graduation has happened at classes in, I think most of us who work in this field, understand that. And now I'm actually and again, I'm not at perfection, I'm far from it. But I'm inserting intentionally breaks throughout the year. And also, I'm starting to schedule it a year in advance, I am going on a yoga retreat next March, it is on the calendar, nobody can mess with it, right? Because if I don't put it there, given the way my schedule works, where I tend to be scheduled out a year in advance, it just doesn't happen. And I end up in a situation where I will be going for four or five, six months without even like a long weekend. Right? And that is just not healthy. We are not, especially as we age, our bodies just don't respond to that.


Ethan Sawyer  26:22  
Yeah, yeah, the thing that you're saying to me is, like, I'm really appreciating is the continual reminder to our listeners, but I think also to yourself, and to me, that, that we're, we're still learning this. I mean, we still use the word becoming, yes, there's a phrase that my friend Lauren shared with me a few weeks ago, we were at a retreat, and she said, a phrase, this is from her therapist, or their therapist, I should say, she they pronouns. But um, Lauren said, the therapist shared, that balance is something that we often see as sort of being like, a, you know, a standard is like, I want to find a balance. And the therapist said, we're actually always coming into balance, which, to me implies, this sort of, like, we're not ever quite there, there's this, you know, we're on this side of it, or we're on this side. And what that the impact that had for me was realizing that, ah, I can take my perfectionism or my striving for excellence, and also apply it to this thing of self care. Right? And make it one more thing that if I don't achieve in this perfect way, or this way that I'm imagining to be that I could definitely make it a thing that I beat myself up with. And like, remembering that it's actually always coming into balance is like, Ah, I don't have to be perfect at this. Yes.


Speaker 1  27:35  
You know, it's something that a friend of mine said to me recently, who does a lot of coaching, actually, executives and individuals, he said something that really struck a chord with me, and I wrote it down, I look at it all the time, which is, every decision you make is a step towards becoming who you want to be. And he said that to me in the context of self care, because I was beating myself up about the fact that I wasn't being good about self care. You know, I was joking. I was like, I wrote this article. And here I am, again, I'm exhausted. I don't know how to do this. And he was trying to point out to me that it's iterative, right, and that now you have more tools, and you had a year ago. And also, by the way, you're recognizing it right. And so you are building or becoming, as I as I like to say that I think also, it's good to point out that it's not going to be perfect, and that many of us who suffer from perfectionism are also going as we try to tackle self care, we're like, Oh, I'm just not good at it, you know, and so I need to give up, but that it is going to be sometimes it's going to feel like three steps forward, two steps back. But every little step you take is going to help you become that balanced, or integrated person as I like to use that it's gonna get you there. It will,


Ethan Sawyer  28:54  
what are some of the things I'm curious to hear about some of the other practices either that you've tried and failed? Or that you're like, leaning in to trying out again, as it relates to other aspects of like, health in terms of exercise, diet, anything like that? What are you? Where are you at with those things?


Speaker 1  29:10  
Yeah, so the the other part of my morning routine is that like, so after I meditate, I'll go do some sort of workout. So whether it's I like to run and swim and do yoga and things like that. And depending on how much time I have, you know, what I'm what I am trying to do better and failing or not failing miserably. I'm just not doing as well, is I ended up doing a lot more travel this season and will have to this summer than plan just because of the way the schedule worked out. And I think the thing that I am still not doing so well is maintaining that commitment while I am traveling. And a lot of people say well, don't give yourself a hard time you're traveling, when a lot of your job is traveling, you need to figure this out, right? Because you can easily fall into sort of this exhaustion phase. So for me it's about I'm keeping that same commitment when I'm on the road. And again, I know it's gonna resonate with a lot of our colleagues, especially admissions, people who are on the road a lot. I think I lost my skills during COVID, because I used a road warrior. And now we're back. And I'm not as well practiced as I used to be. And so that's, that's what I'm working on this summer. And I have plenty of trips coming up to try to practice it. Done.


Ethan Sawyer  30:25  
That seems like a really hard thing to do at hotels and stuff. Have you had any luck? Yeah,


Speaker 1  30:29  
I mean, I think part of it also is like, like you schedule things, right? You know, I make no excuses about meditating. Now it is on my schedule, I asked my assistant, it has to be on my schedule, every single day, even when I travel, it needs to be there. And even if for some reason, you know, I ended up late at a hotel, and I can't do it. But he's there. And it's a reminder. And so I try to schedule things as much as I can, as a reminder. And also I try to, I always stay in hotel with gyms, like that is just, like a rule for me. Because I feel like I need to be able to have access to that, or at least in a hotel where I know that I can just go outside and go for a run. That's intentionality, you have to plan for it. You can't show up and say, Oh, no gems, Sorry, can't work out. Right? So am I running shoes always go in the back, it is not an option. That's


Ethan Sawyer  31:20  
great. I love that, like tactical reminder. It seems to be like one of those things that can trigger the positive behavior. It's reminding me to like, this is something that I think I'm asking you, because this is something that's been really hard for me to develop a regular practice up until, like the last year and a half. And I think the reason it was difficult for me was like, I have to admit, when I by the way, when I hear you say that you'd like run and swim into yoga, I'm just like, oh my gosh, you're like who I want to be in the sense of like, wanting to be that, that to enjoy


Speaker 1  31:46  
the perfect, let me tell you, I said I like doing it. I'm not saying it, I'm doing everything. But look,


Ethan Sawyer  31:50  
it sounds like you'd like those things like you'd like running and you'd like you know, and for me, when I when I think about just running, I'm just like, but pickleball like sports, basketball, I mean, whatever you like. And that's the thing that I like have come to realize is like there was there was a practice out there or a sport, a game that was inducing of a flow state for me. I just hadn't found it yet. And for me, that's what I think I needed to realize is that, you know, I put so many all my like time chips in terms of work, because there was such flow state there where I was challenged, right? Achieving, doing all these checks so many boxes for me. But they didn't have things that I liked as much as I liked to work. And I started to kind of bring those in, you know, playing sports more, you could see the games behind me, you know, playing games, more, these kinds of things have been things that I've found that I I like to do as much as I like to work. So I'm going to turn it on, you have second and say like, what are those things that you found that induce that flow state? Or that puts you in that mode, where you're where you can kind of get some of that adrenaline maybe going? Are there other things like that that come to mind?


Speaker 1  32:57  
Yeah, so I think I've figured this out about myself, particularly when I was living in California and New England, because I grew up in New York City nature was not a thing, for the most part, despite of what you might think of Central Park, but that I need to get out into nature on a regular basis in order to get into flow. I now live in Washington, DC, that is a little harder to do than when I was in Pasadena, California. And we just walk over to the mountains. And so I have to be a lot more intentional. But for example, I'm so proud of myself last Friday, I took the day off because I knew that I was on a travel marathon and I was like, I am feeling the burn again. And I drove out to about 45 minutes. But I went to this beautiful National Park. It's about 45 minutes south of Washington, DC. And I went on a 10k hike. And I just it's like going on a high, you know, it's natural high being around the trees and nature and silence. I think for those of us who live in cities, we take silence for granted. Even when I'm meditating at home, you know, I can hear planes and cars and all that other stuff got to be able to go somewhere where you can be with your own thoughts, and being alone. I think that's the other thing that I this is related to nature that it took me probably 45 years to figure out which is I need to spend time alone. And I am an extrovert I do enjoy being around people, I get energy from people. But then I'm now realizing, especially in this role, where I am surrounded often by 1000s of people that there's a need to be with yourself. And there's a need to be with your thoughts so that you can get clarity. And so the way I do that is I try to get out into nature. Again, the schedule doesn't allow me every single time but I've tried to make this commitment where this year I'm trying to do it at least once a month, right like once a month get out to a park be by yourself go on a hike because that that brings me energy.


Ethan Sawyer  34:57  
Yeah. As you share that I I'm reminded yesterday of Alex on my team, we do a mindfulness like at the start of our meetings for two minutes, and we close our eyes. And he goes, it's time to be your own best friend.


Unknown Speaker  35:12  
What did he mean? Or do you not do not explain that?


Ethan Sawyer  35:14  
Well, what it meant to me was what as you were saying that, like, as you were sharing about how much you want to get out in nature, and how much that gives you, I was feeling like such care for you. And I think when we talked about this, when we first heard the conversation, I was like, just wanting you to take care of yourself. And so there was this, like, care that I was sort of feeling as a friend for you, even though we've spoken a few times. And I thought, gosh, that's like, I'm wanting that for you to be your friend. And also, what I'm really wanting for myself is to be my own best friend. I love that. So that I don't necessarily, I mean, accountability buddies are great, and friends are awesome for this. And there's this like, deeper thing that I'm wanting to sort of, like, lean into that I'm calling self care. But as I think I'm liking thinking of it as a, maybe this is parts work, if I'm getting into like a little bit of therapy thinking of like, sort of like, Who is that? The me because I grew up as the oldest of five big caretaker, oldest brother, you know, in the family played that role a lot. And I think that I when I talk to counselors, a lot, you know, it's like, are you you know, a caretaker and, you know, 80% of the room raises their hand, as a caretaker, I think we all have different reasons for that. Like who's who's caretaking, the caretaker, you know,


Speaker 1  36:27  
I same thing, I always say, who helps the helper, right. And I think, gosh, we probably have a serious epidemic on our hands in our profession. Because the reality of the matter is, everyone who is in the profession is is someone who is either helping students out of school or, you know, admitting students to college, goodness knows that, you know, the work of college admission officers has never been more challenging. But what I've learned over time, is that we need to take care of ourselves if we are going to be of any use to anyone else. And we're fighting a culture, which I think is slowly changing, and partly because of the pandemic, that we shone a light on this, that it's not healthy to be on all the time to be going at this kind of speed. So I think it's, it's difficult to do that. But what I've also learned, especially in leadership roles is that if you don't take care of yourself, it's not that you're, you're not necessarily being your best self, because you show up, you go to work, you do your job, it's that you're not giving the best of yourself to other people, I find that when I am exhausted and burned out, I make poor decisions. I also, I'm not someone like I don't get angry, I you know, I try to bring a very positive and optimistic self to work. But I can get cranky really quickly. I'm like, I don't want my staff to see me cranky, right? Like I want, I want to bring my best self to them, because that's what they deserve. And those are some of the things that also motivate me to sometimes just pause and say, I should go take a hike today. Because if I did not take your day off and go to work, the staff is not going to see a pleasant Angel Perez. So um, you know, so it's really all it's in the service of ourselves, but it's in the service of others who we care about.


Ethan Sawyer  38:14  
I want to talk a little bit because you mentioned counselors in the larger sense and like the profession in the college counseling profession. What's your sense, just sort of like status update in terms of how we're doing? What are some things that you see the profession or NASDAQ doing? Well? And what are some things that you feel like we could do better? Yeah,


Speaker 1  38:35  
gosh, that we could have a whole podcast about that. So I'll try to give you the 30,000 foot view. You know, we certainly have a lot of challenges, and many of which we're already starting to talk about and address. And we'll certainly continue to do so. But it's related to this podcast, why you and I wanted to have this conversation, the burnout, the exhaustion is real. The data is there, you know, when we survey our members, but also, the qualitative data is there every conversation that I have with high school counselors and admission officers is actually not only about the exhaustion, but what keeps me up at night is making sure that people want to stay in this work, because it is so much more challenging. And the headwinds are fierce. And every day I wake up and I see what our members are fighting at the state level against legislatures, that just makes it even more difficult to do their work than they were already doing. So for me, that's that's something that is one of the big challenges. But I would say in terms of what we are doing well, what is amazing to me, and I thought that the theme of our conference last year was so appropriate, which is resilience, right that like, despite all the challenges and the headwinds that are coming our way, that this is still a joyful community. You know, I think I mentioned earlier I was at New Jersey PACAC in Atlantic City, which I don't love because I'm not a casino person, but I went to the conference and I spend time with them. And there was just so much joy there that this is a community who cares deeply about each other cares deeply about students, and continues to rise despite all of the challenges, and that everybody that I talked to wants to be a part of the solution, right? Like they want to be a part of the change, and they want to fight. And I'm now starting to feel post pandemic, that while there's lots of challenges, and we have things like a Supreme Court decision coming out in as early as a week from now, and so on and so forth, there's also an emerging sense of hope. I think that people are feeling well, maybe this is the invention of something new. And maybe, maybe we're on the other side of something, and they can start seeing around the corner. And that actually fires me up and brings me to work every day. So despite the challenges, I think I'm also excited about some of the hope that I'm seeing.


Ethan Sawyer  40:50  
Yeah, I want to just like, reflect that that's something that I deeply experienced, like when I'm at NAC, when I'm at the National Conference is, and I've said share this with friends before. It's like, everybody's smiling. Yeah, like you walk through the halls and you see people and it's just like,


Speaker 1  41:03  
and I know, hugging, and hugging, lots of hugging, and lots of Augie. In


Ethan Sawyer  41:07  
fact, I just went to a conference last week and a half ago, a different conference. And I think that's how I got COVID. But assuming that COVID You know, those doubt, there will be time for more hugging. But anyway, what you're experiencing is what I experienced, like folks are like, I'm, I'm here for it, I'm here for this work, I'm here for the connections. And I also get how concepts like resilience can be tricky, right? Because part of that in my head is like that message to like, and I don't think this is what NACA was intending. And I don't think it was, I think it was a good theme. But sometimes when I hear the word resilience, I'm like, Ah, that's what's kept me like, in the in the struggle, right? Should I get along? I'm like, I don't I don't know that, like, the theme of rest for the conference is like the right one, because I think that would be too, you know, sort of ambiguous. But I think that like, one of the things that I've liked, too, that concretely speaking is, as I've seen at different, like this conference that I just want to, you know, having spaces where folks can just get away and just meditate or just do yoga and make that a part of the schedule and part of the calendar, and something that isn't like marginalized in a way. And I'm not I think neck is doing this, but making it part of what I'm what I feel committed to maybe that's a question is like, what, what do we feel personally committed to? And one of the things that I feel committed to is like taking part of these of exercises and experiences, and also using my platform to meme out, Hey, here's the thing that's happening, that, you know, yes, there's gonna be a lot going on. But there are these moments to rest. And let's remember to rest, that's something that I feel really committed to. So, ya know, I'm


Speaker 1  42:39  
so excited because we didn't, by the way, we did not plan this whatsoever. But this is exactly what we are talking about for the next conference. And it is the reason why we went from resilience, which we thought was a very appropriate term at that time, to the power of us. And I'm not at liberty to share who the keynote is going to be. But let's just say that we have chosen this speaker, because of all the issues that you and I have just discussed, that it is time for us to empower the members. But also, I think everyone's talking about self care. Everybody is talking about, you know how we might take care of ourselves. But nobody's really talked about the how. And so this speaker is someone who is very well known globally on the house. And so we're excited. This is not a person in college admissions. This is just someone who has dedicated their their life to producing healthier beings. So very, very excited about that. And that what we're hoping for as well is that people come to the conference. And yes, we're going to be talking about some heavy topics, right? We're going to talk about Supreme Court, Chat. GPT is going to be on the agenda, we're going to talk about the future of testing, so on and so forth, right, all of it will be there. But we are also going to have a very deep focus on how we care for ourselves before we can care for others. And also the power of us theme really came about because we kept feeling, you know, we sort of take the pulse of the profession before we come up with the theme. And we kept hearing the word coalition members kept saying we're such a powerful coalition, like if we can only come together. And I just love that so much. I just felt like, yeah, we're over 27,000 people across the country in the world, we're dedicated to this work together, we actually have a lot of influence, right, and we have a lot of power. So let's move from resilience to taking back our power and being much more intentional about how we lead our lives, but also being much more intentional about creating the future as opposed to waiting and sitting back and watching it happen to us. So I'm super excited about the conference and like exactly what you just said that you were hoping for, is what we're going to be doing I love


Ethan Sawyer  44:57  
that and I and I so value because it does give me a chance to like, not just remember that I have community like sort of abstractly, but go like, Oh, wait, these are my people and my people are here. Yeah. What I'm curious on the back to the personal for just a minute, are you finding opportunities to find your people? And I mean this Yes, work, but also like, how is that showing up in your life in terms of just connecting with friends and being intentional in that regard? Yeah,


Speaker 1  45:23  
that's an area where I feel very fortunate. So my friends are like, all over the country, and some of them are abroad. And I'm actually someone who like, is still very close to his college friends, right? I it's just amazing. I believe in the power of, you know, that residential liberal arts experience, because it connects you for life. But I'm pretty good for the most part of staying in touch with my friends. It's mostly phone calls and FaceTime and things like that, where I am yearning for more is that in person time together, right, that we are getting together. And you know, we haven't figured it out. And I hear of like friendship groups who commit to like a retreat every year, right? Like every year in September, we're gonna get together. And I think that's like the next step, I need to be much more intentional about bringing my close group of friends who have known me since I was either a teenager or in college, and I'm not angel, the NASDAQ CEO, most of them have no clue what I do for a living. And, you know, really, you can be your true self and bring your true self to that. So but I feel very fortunate because I have a lot of a lot of love from friends. And I have a lot of what I call chosen family around me.


Ethan Sawyer  46:34  
Yeah, totally, I've really resonated with that. It was I think I had a similar realization or shift around that where I was like, oh, in time would be good. And I'm like, you know, we have a regular game night. And like, you know, I've got the regular week where we call authentic relating nights where we play games, like awesome games for connection. So, you know, fighting, you were so into games like this. This was I mean, honestly, this has been a thing that when I was like, I need to find things that I like to do as much as I like to work. Because for me, the boring check in that I've had at every conference for like, 10 years was like, I'm working on work life balance. And that was like my vulnerable check. And I was kind of tired of like, staying that again and again. And I was like, I need to just find things that put me in flow. And so yeah, board games was one of those things that was something that I kind of grew up with, but I found that put me in flow states and wasn't you know, sort of, because I sometimes I get made fun of by my friends for being the guy who's like the deep conversation guy. And you know, that when we meet strangers at a restaurant, or something like one of us is in tears within a few minutes, resonates


Speaker 1  47:37  
with me, because you know, you and I have known each other, we haven't spent a lot of time together. But when we were at the hotel in Spokane, we sat down and like literally within five minutes, we were in deep conversation. But I think also because our wavelengths were in a similar place. And I think we have been experiencing similar journeys, but I can tell you or someone but I also think you're someone who asked, I sent this to you, I can't remember if it was via email or in person, but you have this energy of like peace. And to me what I mean by that is, it is someone who I clearly can tell has done the work right and yet peace and to exude genuine joy, I think takes work. I'm not sure that I'm there, but I aspire to. So you know, I think it takes a lot of work to really be at inner peace and to exude joy. And I have a couple of people in my life that exude that, and you are one of them.


Ethan Sawyer  48:32  
I really appreciate that acknowledgement. I feel. There's like a calming, experienced, I'm like, Ah, I feel seen. And also, I'm thinking about when you said do the work. I'm thinking about the Hoffman Institute, which we talked about just briefly, which was so powerful for me in terms of like an example of an opportunity that I got to do the work. And just to give context for folks. The Hoffman Institute is this like week long retreat, where you go, and you look at all of your patterns with your mom and dad or people who raised you. And you basically do a I'm not gonna spoil it for folks who might go but you basically go deep dive for a week. And it's kind of like the way I would describe it as like a year of therapy or, you know, five years of therapy in one week. But I think it was experiences like that, that had me getting in there and figuring out, you know, how's the how's my brain working? How's my heart working, and to make shifts? I'm


Speaker 1  49:23  
glad you shared that. And by the way I should definitely do that is to at some point. But the reason it's so important is because most people float through life, just reacting to what is but what I mean by doing the work, it actually means getting uncomfortable, right? It actually means it might be time to have some therapy. It might be time to do an institute like this, that you can actually fundamentally change your life but you have to do the work. If you don't like the pattern that you are in and we all have patterns whether we like it or not right. And so one of the things that every opportunity I get to talk to people is to really encourage them to pause and to do the work, whatever that means for them, right? For some people, it's spiritual development, and they need to find a particular path that works for them. For others, it's the inner journey. For others. It's meditation. I mean, there's so many different ways. But if there is something inside of you, that is just, you know, you're feeling like, you know, I could be better. It's the calling to do the work.


Ethan Sawyer  50:27  
Yeah, I'm feeling inspired by what you're sharing. And I think, I think we have to keep meaning this meaning like, folks who are in positions of leadership, and I think, by the way that most people who are listening to this podcast are in some ways.


Speaker 1  50:43  
Or counselor, if you're an elite school, you are leading in


Ethan Sawyer  50:47  
your family, like there's some way that you are in a leadership position, and that we can continue to model that for one another by just talking about this. And taking those moments to pause and for self care, because there isn't a moment when someone has been like, I need to pause, just I need to self care where I've been like, I don't know, mad at somebody, usually, I'm like respecting their boundaries. And I'm like, Oh, wow, great reminder. That's something that I think again, being my own best friend, I need to remind myself that those and I think I'm okay at it, I'm pretty good at it. But that I just want to invite folks as they're listening to, like, let's continue as leaders to be sharing about this and to be, I think it's just using this language. And even if it's just as simple as talking about self care, I think continuing to talk about that in our homes in our offices. Yeah,


Speaker 1  51:30  
bringing it out of the closet, as I like to say, what's been amazing to me, again, with with the burnout article and other opportunities I've had to talk about it actually did a session with a college about this as well, a dean had read the article and wanted me to come and talk to their teams. It's like a weight lifts off of the shoulder of the team. I've literally watched it happen when I did this session, they could not believe that their dean wanted to talk about burnout, that their dean wanted to talk about self care that their dean said, it is okay for you to go and take time for your own development. We're going to build a wellness group, right things like that, that are the physical manifestation of the commitment that we're making to our teams, I share that because we're we just built a wellness room at NASDAQ about a week ago. So people can go in there, and they can meditate or just, you know, relax in between meetings, so on and so forth. But I think we have a real responsibility as leaders, and I'm not just speaking about me and you, I'm speaking about everybody who is listening to this, to do the work ourselves, right? And then to share those learnings with others, so that it can have a trickle down effect, I think we can become a much better society as a result.


Ethan Sawyer  52:41  
And I think the practical things that you're talking about are so important. And it gets me like excited, because I'll give you an example at our when we started this conversation at our team about what does you know, when is burnout happening? What does it look like a big thing was email. And so what that led to was us looking at the communication, the way that we communicate with each other on email on Slack. And we basically had just bullet pointed, here's what email is for, here's what slack is for, and have norms, you know, in every office, and every business is gonna have different norms. But like articulating those for folks, I think, for me, gives me sort of like a sense of calm of like, okay, and it's something that I can come back to, if I'm like, because there might be these moments where I'm like, is it okay to email this person about this thing. And so having those things disarticulated has been really, really useful for us on a practical level. And then we can revisit, you know, every few months. And it also for onboarding new folks and being like, hey, here's here are the cultural norms. And what's expected, even if they're not always 100%, you know, kept to it's like, this is something practical that we can do to actually start to move towards this thing we're calling self care. I


Speaker 1  53:46  
love that we don't do that. I think that's a great addition around and particularly for new individuals, because you come into an organization and you're like, what's normal? What's not what's taboo, for you to actually be able to do that, particularly around email culture, which I will say I struggle with. So it's good to put that down and right. Well,


Ethan Sawyer  54:04  
I'm keep, we could go on and on for hours. I love this conversation. But I'm curious in the spirit of sort of wrapping what what do you want to leave folks with? You know, we're talking, we've been talking to counselors, but I imagine that parents and students will listen to this as well. What are your What are your thoughts?


Speaker 1  54:18  
Yeah, first of all, thank you for doing this. I hope we do it again and continue this conversation. I know we will in person at some point. But I would say, you know, I would just love to encourage everybody that's listening, you know, to walk away and maybe take a couple of things that resonated with you those aha moments that I like to call and maybe think about two things. One is, where could you push yourself out of your comfort zone a little bit to maybe begin to explore some of those issues yourself? And then how do you begin to cultivate an openness to these kinds of conversations within your own teams within your own families within your own students that you serve? You know, one of the things I love I used to teach a course when I was on a college campus. It's called Designing your life and using design thinking to really design your own life. It's a curriculum that came out of Stanford. And it was amazing to watch 20 year olds and 19 year olds have the aha moment that my life is mine to design, right? And I keep thinking about what if 16 and 17 year olds, we're having the conversation that you and I are having now, right? Or maybe not necessarily having it in the way we've had, because we've done some work, but that they can start thinking well, 16 or 17 years old, I want to start doing the work, I want to really start going in and thinking about, you know, my life patterns and how I might want to live a well balanced or integrated life, so on and so forth. And the people that are listening to this have the power of making that happen. I think that's extraordinary. Love


Ethan Sawyer  55:47  
that human centered design thinking has been a big part of our thinking college essay guy and some of the exercises that you're talking about for 16 and 17 year olds. For those of you who are listening, we'll share them in the show notes because that's been so important. Really


Speaker 1  56:00  
cool. You can also tell your students to read the book designing your life. It's fantastic. I have so many copies in my office. I give them out like hotcakes. Totally,


Ethan Sawyer  56:08  
I plus one to that angel. Thank you. I'm so grateful for this time together. And I'm looking forward to our next conversation.


Unknown Speaker  56:15  
Here. Thanks again.


Ethan Sawyer  56:20  
Hi, friends, I hope you found the conversation interesting. If you're hungry for the practical stay tuned for episode two where we get into the specifics with sage Simpson on how to actually develop a morning routine. So if this is a topic that interests you, and you want to know some like step by step things you can actually do check that one out. You'll always find the show notes at college essay guy.com/podcast. And if you've got feedback or comments, feel free to share them on Instagram or on Twitter at college essay guy. Thanks friends talk soon. Stay curious.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai