522: Storytelling & Identity with Ethan Sawyer (Bonus Part 4): On Productivity, Writing as a Journey, and What It Means to Be Enough

Ethan Sawyer  0:08  
Hey friends, and welcome back to the podcast. So as some of you know, I've been doing this storytelling and identities exercise interviewing my television and screenwriter friends, and as I got to the end of the previous episode that was just on the podcast with my best friend Ryan. I was like, you know, I kind of love this work, and I thought it might be cool to maybe do it myself. So this is kind of a bonus episode in the series, and I thought it might even be more interesting if I had one of my essay coaches interview me and do some of this identities work. So what you'll hear on this episode is a sort of unique situation, at least for this podcast interviewer, where I'm going to be the guest, and the interviewer is someone I admire very much, named ally pinio, who is Ali. Ali's a writing coach and a college admission essay specialist here at college essay guy. She has a BA in English from Stanford University and an MFA from UC Irvine. Just like I do, she plays lots of roles here at CG. She's a workshop facilitator, she's a program advisor, an internal review committee member, an essay specialist, and now a podcast interviewer. She spent 1000s of hours over the past eight years working with students applying to college, listening for their strengths and guiding them through the writing process to craft a compelling narrative. And on this episode, basically what she does is helps me brainstorm my own personal statement if I were writing it today. Hope you enjoy.


Ali Pineo  1:41  
Hi Ethan, welcome to the podcast.


Ethan Sawyer  1:43  
Hi. Thanks for Thanks for having me.


Ali Pineo  1:48  
Before we begin. I'd love to do a check in. How are you doing today?


Ethan Sawyer  1:51  
Oh, thanks for asking. I'm I feel a little bit caffeinated, but like the I think, like the right amount of caffeinated, I feel excited to be here with you. I feel a little bit vulnerable because I'm not quite sure where this is going to go. And grateful, like, just deeply grateful for you, like, the prep that you've done for this episode, and just yeah, just being able to share this time with you. Awesome. How are you i? Yeah,


Ali Pineo  2:21  
I am feeling good. It's, it's raining outside, and it's been kind of raining for the past couple of days, so like, lots of cozy vibes. And it's, it's kind of chilly, which is, you know, I'm on Maui, and so it's usually pretty warm. So I kind of like this new, like, you know, coolness in the air. I'm nervous. I'm nervous to be chatting with you, but I'm also excited to get to know more about you today. Awesome. So let's jump right in. Let's go, yeah, when I work with a student, I start by letting them know a couple of things. First is that, you know, I come to our discussion with a bias, that's my confession. I listen for identity because I personally find it, you know, really interesting. You know, putting a name to something that might feel abstract or even transient to some people, it can lead to some really cool insights that we can dig into. So this is perfect for today, since we're covering the roles and identities exercise. And then I also let them know I'm here as a listener, a question asker and an observer with no judgment. I like to sort of follow them, you know, wherever they want to take the conversation. So I'm really excited, and, like I said, a little nervous, to walk you through this roles and identities exercise, and I'm eager to learn, as I am with all my students. How you see yourself?


Ethan Sawyer  3:42  
Awesome. I'm ready. I'm game cool.


Ali Pineo  3:46  
So what is this exercise for those who are listening in it's a non exhaustive list of rules and identities that Ethan has gone ahead and filled out ahead of time, bolding the identities that are alive and present for him, Ethan. So I like to, you know, let my students sort of lead us in this exercise. Where do you want to start? What? Which of these, you know, nine or 10 identities that you've bolded is sort of like really popping out at you this morning.


Ethan Sawyer  4:12  
Cool. Let me so I'd love to just read them aloud, so that folks know the ones that we're working with. And then let me see which where my attention is drawn, So in no particular order, the identities that I picked, the ways that I see myself are as a catalyst, someone who starts things, a connector in lots of different ways, a creator, a culture creator, so slightly Different, a teacher. I see myself as an engine, which is like, you know, the productive person who gets things done, a harmonizer, a listener, a seeker and a writer. And as I look at these, like, as I'm sort of puzzling through this, I'm like, gosh, all of these are such a big part of the work that I. Do you know I'm done. It's hard for me to like, there are other ways that identify as, like, a father and a husband and a friend, but a lot of them, I'm just connecting, I think, to like, college essay, guy stuff, maybe because we're on the podcast. I think the one that like, where there's like, some aliveness for me right now is the one that's like the connector, and so this may be like the broadest one, but I see myself as a connector in a few different ways. So one is like, I see myself as a connector like when I'm sitting in a movie or reading a book, I can't help but think about who else would love this particular thing. It's like, it's it happened to me on Tuesday, when I was like, watching a movie, I was just like, Oh my gosh. And I can't help but think connect certain works of art, for example, to other people. I'm also a connector in terms of the ways that like connecting ideas. So when someone is sharing to me with me, like, Oh, I think about myself as this. This is I can't help but connect the different things. So I was already doing it just now, and I was like, connecting all the identities. I can't help but do that. I also deeply value connecting with other people. So, you know, this comes from me, growing up all over the place, which we might get into later, but it became really important to me. Actually, let me get into it for a second, because I think it's an important piece of my history. I moved like, 20 times ally like, you know, my parents were missionaries, and I went to 13 different schools, and going to these different schools, I think was really hard. First of all, there were lots of tears, and I think one of the things I had to get good at was connecting with people quickly, like making friends fast. And I think I got pretty good at that by like, going deep, you know, asking deep questions. It's interesting that the opposite of this is also true, because I think I got pretty good at disc pretty good at disconnecting and like leaving people behind, saying goodbye. So that's interesting I had. That's a realization moment I was became a disconnector, and there will be times now, I noticed that when I'm at a party, I like to sort of drop in with people, but I also I kind of like to Irish goodbye, you know, kind of like peace out. And part of that is because I'm I've so when I, like, for example, there was a room full of friends on Sunday at a gathering, and I was like, Oh my gosh, if I try to say goodbye to everybody, I'm gonna want to connect with them deeply. And it's gonna take me, like, 30 minutes and I need to get home. So I just kind of like, said goodbye to the person whose birthday was, and then I like, peaced out. But connection, like my connections with my closest friends, my connection with my partner and my wife, is so, so so deeply important to me. And then I would say, as it relates to my work as college essay guy, helping students make connections in their lives with deeper parts of themselves, deeply important to me. And then I would say, like, if what's at the heart of this work besides that, is like creating resources, creating exercises that help students to make connections with their mentor, the person who's helping them through this process. And so counts for counselors who are listening. If you've ever had a moment that's like, wow, I really feel like I'm more deeply connected with this student. Like, that's because it's comes from me. Like having deep connections with students through things like the values exercise, or this roles and identities exercise is like, Oh my gosh. I want other people to experience this sort of deep connection that can happen when we are in this space with one another, of like personal growth and self discovery, making connections about our own lives. And I think this is something that my therapist said a couple years ago. He said that he was talking about intimacy, and he said intimacy is when the way he defined it was really interesting, because he asked me, How do you define intimacy? I was like, I don't know. And he said intimacy to him is having feelings about someone else's feelings about their own life. And I want to say that again, because it took me a couple times hearing it myself to hear it. It's like it's having feelings about someone else's feelings about their life. And that may not apply across the board in every situation and it all, by the way, it feels kind of edgy for me to talk about intimacy as we're talking about this mentorship relationship. But if we think about it in the broad sense, and go like feeling like connected to or close to someone, I think that that's, for me, one of the best parts of this process and this experience is that is creating, is having moments where someone is making a self discovery, and we get to be there, to witness, to hold space, to, you know, to reflect back. So, yeah, that was a lot on connector.


Ali Pineo  9:52  
That was a lot, I feel like that is, you know, in terms of sort of the little that I know about you and the. Few times we've hung out in person and got to have, like, some nice conversation connector. Definitely feels like something that brings together many of your identities. I love that definition of intimacy. You know, having feelings about someone else's feelings about their own life, it's almost hard for me to, like, grasp that, conceptualize it. I'm wondering, you know, I want to have some feelings about the feelings that you have about your life. So I'm wondering, and this might be a super broad question, interpreted as you will, but what are the feelings that you have about your life? Ooh, I love this.


Ethan Sawyer  10:36  
Let me share some feelings as it relates to this identity of connector, connection. Like, why is this so important to me? I think, if I'm honest, I've I was, I was kind of, I was lonely growing up and maybe lonelier than I knew. And what I mean by this is, like, I spent a lot of time being the new kid, and there were so many instances when it was like, we have a new student today, and I was that new student, you know. And so I think that I had to adapt and create belonging for myself because of this feeling of, like, sadness, of separation. I remember this moment when I was in fourth grade, of like, sitting at the I wouldn't put this in my college essay because I think it's too early, but I remember this moment of like, sitting at the lunch table. I haven't shared this with anybody in a long time, and like, looking away from the people that I was sitting at the lunch table with because I was biting into my sandwich and I didn't want anybody to see me crying, and so I just like, turned my face away so that they wouldn't see my tears as I was literally crying while eating, which, by the way, is a really funny I don't know if it's a subreddit or a website or what, but it's just videos of people crying while eating, and I felt so sad that I couldn't be with my mom and dad. Side note, one of the things that I would look forward to at the end of the day was when I would get home, my dad and I would play board games, which are, if you know, if you really knew me, you'd know that I really love and probably there's something deep there. So some loneliness that I think connection was sort of an antidote to. I think that if I fast forward to, like the pandemic, I think this, some of this loneliness came back, as it did for I think a lot of us, but I think I didn't again. I didn't really know it until looking back how thirsty I was for connection. And by thirsty, I mean, like, I think I felt dehydrated from hanging out with people. And it wasn't until, like, I started hanging out with people again, and I was just like, oh my gosh, this is so great. And it reminded me of moments when you're like, you're dehydrated and you don't realize it, then you drink water and you're like, Wow, this tastes really good. Like, the best water I've ever had. And that's what hanging out with people again, did. So like, Yeah, those were some feelings loneliness and sadness. And then once I had that connection. So like, after the pandemic, I started to, like, you know, play board games again with my close friends, and I started to and there's this relational meditation practice that I do, called circling. And started getting involved with that. And felt a sense of calm, a sense of like, feeling, I don't know if this is a feeling, but like, feeling seen, feeling heard, and a sense of, like, yeah, like, it was, like, if I think about what the need was, like meeting my need for belonging, but it took, like, being really active, you know, to, like, bring those things into my life again. Did you have any feelings?


Ali Pineo  13:30  
Yeah, I really, you know, when I hear, you know, when I hear connector, I think about, like, what does the quality that comes before connector? What could that look like to really sort of make that connector identity yours. So for example, like one of your identities is harmonizer, right? So it's like, what type of harmonizer Are you? Are you a disruptive harmonizer? So I don't think this is what you are, but I love how you talked about where loneliness and I feel like I can really tap into that feeling of like, feeling lonely, feeling left out, feeling like you want to belong and fit in. So I was like, is he a lonely connector? I don't think that's I don't think that's what it is. But yeah, I can, I can really sort of empathize with that feeling of loneliness, and I love how it sort of blossoms into this beautiful thing where I really do see you as a connector of ideas and people and culture and all of you know, sort of what college essay guy is, is about, you know, connection. That's like for me, what I feel like is one of our core values. I don't know if you feel that way. I


Ethan Sawyer  14:34  
mean, I hope so. It seems like, especially because our team is, like, virtual, you know, 99% of the time that creating connection is particularly challenging and particularly important. But I want to touch on harmonizer. Maybe we could, could shift? Could we shift to that for a minute?


Ali Pineo  14:53  
Yes. Can I say something, please, cool. Okay, so you know, when I think about. About connector and harmonizer, I feel like on a Venn diagram, there's like, a really big overlap, but clearly you picked both of them for a reason. So I'm wondering how you see them as different, or how do you distinguish them? Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  15:13  
yeah. I love this question. Okay, so the harmonizer in me, like, the way it manifests itself on, like, a daily basis. So here's the so there are a few different ways. One is like, I is it? I don't know if that did I avoid conflict, but I get super anxious when things when people are in conflict, and I really want people to just get along and so often, perhaps to my own detriment, I will, like, speed things along so that we can get back to, like, the place where it's nice and there's a there's a shadow to this, where it's like, sometimes it's hard for me to be with, like, moments of disharmony or uncertainty or conflict, such that it really takes up a lot of brain space. And where this comes from, I think, like when growing up, I think there was a pretty great deal of harmony in my house, like, pretty happy upbringing. It wasn't until so my parents got divorced when I was, like, 1617, but like, we were, to their credit, we were kept from the conflict, like the a lot of this, the you know, the you know, the disagreements, the arguments, whatever they were, happened behind closed doors. And so I, you know, on, at least on the surface, and, you know, talk to my therapist, but I think there was a good amount of harmony. And there was sort of, like, different phases of my life, like when we were overseas. I remember a pretty happy childhood, but I was the oldest of what would end up being five siblings, and it was kind of up to me to be the, you know, a third parent, as it were. And I really, I think I really embraced that role and worked to sort of like make sure, because we had, you know, my younger siblings especially, are like 911, and 13 years younger than me. So we had diapers for like, five or six years. So I was kind of like, helping run things and being in charge of, you know, putting them to bed and rocking them to sleep and those kinds of things. So I think in terms of, it wasn't like mom and dad are fighting and I need to, like, harmonize. It was more like, hey, let's just make sure things are running smoothly. And so I think that, and this was like, starting at nine, that's when my, you know, my oldest, youngest brother, my oldest younger brother, Devin, was born, is like I was sort of like a caretaker. And I've been, I've been thinking about this more lately, where I think that it sort of was like, not like I was born for this, but like I was trained for this and and this will get into another overlap identity of like caretaker, where I was really sort of at, starting at nine years old, put in that role of being, we'll call it like, more broadly, older brother, but it was literally older brother. So to answer your question like, how does this overlap with connector, and


Ali Pineo  18:03  
it doesn't have to necessarily overlap. Maybe you really don't see them as overlapping. That's fine too.


Ethan Sawyer  18:10  
Yeah, I think there are some implied overlaps where it's like, you know, helping people connect helps them to harmonize. That might be a little bit more superficial. I think maybe I'll talk about how I think this is different. I think that this is like, I think the connector is oftentimes, for me, more inwardly focused, like connecting with myself, making connections, whereas harmonizer is oftentimes more outwardly focused, where I'm trying to create harmony in my external world, and then that is hopefully having the byproduct of creating a harmony inwardly. So it's like, almost like connector is something that starts inward, like with the connection that I make in my brain, and then I, you know, create something or externalize it, whereas the harmonizer actually, now that I think about it, the desire to harmonize probably starts with something that's happening in my nervous system where I'm like, Ah, we need to create harmony. So maybe that kind of falls apart. But I think that for harmonizer, I think that it's the good side of this. I'll just say this. I think the good side of it is like, I rarely people rarely get in fights with me, like I rarely have disagreements. And I think people like that. The downside of that is, like, we rarely have disagreements, and so all the, sort of, like, you know, the juicy stuff that can come on the other side after the repair has happened. I think I, if I'm really honest, I think I miss out on sometimes, because I'm not, I'm sort of averse to getting into some of the ooey gooey stickiness of, like, the conflict, and I'm sort of like, you know, avoiding that in explicit and implicit ways. So yeah, harmonizing, I would, and I say it's important with our team, like with college essay guys, like, I really want folks to get along, and I want things to go well. And that's sort of what we're like. Up with a culture creator, like, I want to create a culture not where we're not talking about things, but where we find good and productive ways to disagree and and folks are able to, like, communicate clearly when things come up. So, yeah,


Ali Pineo  20:16  
I so, you know, you've sort of brought up the word caretaker multiple times, and I'm wondering, if you know, with connector and harmonizer, there's sort of this, like peace, sort of like this avoidance of conflict. I'm wondering, within this role, if you ever sort of have conflicts with other identities of yours, maybe like as a family man, as a father, as a husband, or if with any of these others, you know, catalyst and engine, which sort of has this, like, very forward moving motion to them, wondering if there's any sort of conflict identities,


Ethan Sawyer  20:51  
oh my gosh, thank you. Yeah, I feel kind of seen by your question. And so I've been through phases I was sort of like, I would say that before my wife and I met, like, when I was in my, you know, early 20s, I was more of a creative, you know, I wanted to be a writer, you know, maybe a screenwriter. And my wife jokes that she was like, she she, she was dated a an artist, and then married an entrepreneur. Because as soon as, like, well, not as but, like, as soon as we knew we were gonna have a baby. That's when I started to think about, okay, I need to, like, create some stability. And that's when, like, I really started to learn how to be productive, because I was a huge procrastinator, like, never getting things done, you know, a true quote, unquote artist, in the cliche sense of, like, you know, kind of messy and kind of like, you know, it start things but not finish. I guess this is, like, sort of the visionary archetype as well. And it wasn't until I was like, Okay, I need to actually, like, I don't know, adult or something, if we're gonna buy some diapers that I shifted into this new role of, like, I don't know it had a few different components to it, but, like, the engine, the entrepreneur, the the one who gets things done, because I was just needing to create stability and certainty. And so for, like, I would say, for like, seven years, I, like, intensely trained while building college essay. Guy to be like, I don't even think entrepreneur is it to be like an engine, someone who could really get things done and create at a really and be productive at a really high level. And I became, in my wife's words, and this is like, for better and for worse, the most productive person that she knows. But there was a cost to that. So, like, in becoming so productive, a daily cost was like, you know, I would, I would come in from, like, working. And so oftentimes we, you know, we had a small house, so I was, like, working in the living room, and I would, like, take my productive energy and, like, just shift it onto Veronica. And I'd be like, Okay, let's do this. This is, you know, and I'm still guilty of this sometimes. And I was like, I needed to be to learn how to be in two different modes, like fast mode, get stuff done, make the most use of the hours in a day, and then shift into like slow mode. And one of the things I started to do was, like, when I would walk in the door, or when I would switch rooms and go into the living room, or go into like the communal space or the bedroom, I would like tell myself, Okay, I'm shifting into a different mode. And so I would that helps me a little bit to, like shift from, let's call it like engine slash productivity mode, into like husband slash partner mode. And sometimes that took, like, some winding down. And it would sometimes just take like, an hour or more for me to just, like slow like to come in off the moving walkway, to use a metaphor. And so I think that, and I don't think I'm like, I think what helped is finally also creating boundaries around because I would work at night, I would work early in the morning. I'd get up at 530 to, like, write work on a book. And then I finally shifted so that I had some, like, nine to five work boundaries. What I'd say, Ali has really come online for me over the last, really, the last year and a half or two years, is like, now that college essay guy is, like, running pretty well. We've got an amazing team, etc. I've been able to, like, tap back into some of these old, what I would call, like, these dormant roles or identities. So like, I've been able to, like, spend a little more time writing again, to the Creator side of me. I've been able to, like, step into like, the I don't know what the the game part of me is, but like, whatever that identity is, the one who just loves to play the seeker identity, I've been going to more like, retreats and workshops over the last year and a half, stuff that I think I wouldn't have made time for like, five years ago, because I'm like, Well, I gotta, you know, we gotta keep the lights on here that. I'm like, oh, okay, I'm able to, like, actually make more time for myself. So I think again, there was a shift from being outwardly focused, highly focused on values of like, certainty and stability, and now there's, like, more ease, more balance that's come into my life, and I've been able to focus. More inwardly on, like, things like personal growth and fun and joy and, yeah, like slowness. That's been a big theme for me over the last like, especially the last six months, is like slowness.


Ali Pineo  25:13  
So I'm hearing a lot of these. You know, when I ask this question about, How do your roles conflict, I feel like you sort of shy away from being like, yes, like being the engine conflicts with these things. Again, I see you being a connector, connecting, being an engine to, you know, being able to connect and shift into different modes and dormant roles and identities and values for joy and slowness. Yeah. I'm thinking about sort of, you know, the knack act presentation that you get you gave on putting on your own mask first. I'm wondering, you know, I hear, when I hear you talk, I'm hearing a lot of, like, balance that's happening between these different roles. And I was sort of wondering, you know, where are you at in terms of balancing all of these different roles, yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  26:02  
yeah. And I'm like, feeling called in to, like, really look at more, like, where the conflicts happen. So, so, and then I want to answer the second part, which is like, where am I in terms of balance? I think the way, so, a specific way that it conflicted is like, I think I want it to be like, the best husband and partner and the best father and the best college essay guy and and, and, and, I just feel like in order to do all of the things at a really high level, it required some trade offs. And one of the trade offs, like, if you would have asked me five years ago, like, what do you do for yourself? I wouldn't have. I would have been like, What do you mean? You know, yeah, what


Ali Pineo  26:47  
do you do for yourself?


Ethan Sawyer  26:48  
Well, if you'd asked me five years ago, I would have been like, not much. Like I, in fact, I do this pie chart exercise where it's like, how do you spend your time, and what are you focused on? And the self percentage was like, 2% or 0% so fast forward to now. Some things that I do for myself are pickleball. I play lots of pickleball. I also have been really focused on my health lately. And, you know, have a naturopath and have, you know, some different supplements that I'm taking. There's like, sort of specific things I do. Like, I, I really, and I don't do this as often as I would like, but I love massage. My love, my love language is touch. So like, I will get a massage from time to time. I'm I also have nobody, like, knows this about me, but I, I have a best friend named Greg, one of my best friends. And we, we get together semi regularly, and we like, we'll just like, talk about a poem. So we both subscribe to, like, the writers Almanac, like, there's like, a poem a day, and we will just get in and we'll just like, love a poem. One of the poems, in fact, that we're gonna do next is the one that I sent you recently about irony. And we record them because we don't know if we're maybe gonna release them one day, but it's really just for us right now. We might end up it's kind of messy. It's like a combination of like us connecting about our relationship. And this was a friend who was diagnosed with stage four cancer last year, and right around the same time, we were like, we were like, Oh my gosh, how much time do we have left, and what, how do we really want to spend this time? And it really shook me up, and have me thinking about what's important, and I think it's been responsible for some of these changes. So those are some things. I'm also noticing that I'm like, pausing, slowing down. There's I mentioned games. I play board games, sometimes once a week, sometimes, like four times a week.


Ali Pineo  28:37  
I have a question. So I love you know that you're talking about what you do for yourself. Because I truly feel like, you know, the the cliche of like, you know you can't pour from an empty cup, and so like, filling your cup is incredibly important, because then you're able to give more generously to those around you. And so I heard you mention, you know, I want to be the best husband and the best father, the best you know. You know college essay guy, I'm wondering how you define that, like, what does that look like to


Ethan Sawyer  29:07  
you? Oh, that's a really good one. Okay, I can, I can feel into what it how I know that I'm being the best father. So at the time of this recording, my daughter's nine. Now, I read this parenting book when she was like two, and it's called, listen, it's amazing. We'll link to it in the show notes, but one of the things that it talks about is just something called special time. And what it is is you set a timer for 10 or 15 minutes and you just let the kid lead. And I started to do this with Zola, where I would just let her do whatever she wanted to do, whether it was playing with dolls or puppets or Lego or and just let her do the thing and follow her lead. And the way that she responded to me was like, with such presence and joy and like, just love and. And I could feel when she felt connected to me. And you know, if I would ask her to, like, do something, like, hey, it's time to go to bed, she'd be like, okay, you know, because she felt connected to me. And I noticed that sometimes if I were to say, like, hey, it's time to eat or time to go to bed, and she was, like, responded in a, you know, rough way, or, like, resistant it was when she didn't feel connected to me. So I know this is a weird heuristic, but like, I know if Zola is connected to me just by there's a way. There are two things. One is like, if things need to get done, how is she responding to me in terms of, like, my directives? But also, there's something that she does. It's called The Zola lean, where she'll just like, she's sitting next to me. First of all, her, like, wanting to sit next to me, but she'll just, like, lean into me, as, you know, just like, literally lean her body. And sometimes I'll be like, a little bit annoyed by it initially, because I'll forget that she's doing it. I'll be like, Hey, I'm trying to whatever, eat or type or, you know, read to you or something. And then I'm like, Oh, wait. And I'll ask her, are you doing the zoldeline right now? And she's like, Yeah. So that's how I know that I'm, like, doing okay on like, a day to day or weekly basis with my partner, with my wife. If I notice that Veronica is in her playful zone where she's, like, free to, like, be silly and jokey, that's usually a pretty good sign that I'm that we are connected, that she's feeling spacious, and that's what I look for, is like, Ah, she's feeling playful. I'm unburdened, in a way, by the, you know, by the cares of this world when it comes to being like a good college essay guy right now, or the best college essay guy it used to be, I don't know what it used to be. What it is right now is like, do people feel meaning like our team? Do we feel connected to the mission, like the thing that we're doing in the world? Are we working the right amount? In other words, you know, do people feel like they're not burnt out? That's a double negative. But whatever, the opposite of being burned out is, do people feel like they're working the right amount, doing work that they and we, we all care about, and with a clear sense of like, what's expected of us? Because I think that that's a big contributor of how I think when I you know, the feedback that I'm getting and the stuff that I've read is like, Do people know what's expected of them, but I think there's something that I sort of intuitively track for. Is like, when we're on our team meetings or in one on one conversations, is there joy? Like, do we feel like, you know, glad to be here and it's, it's, it's, sometimes it's not, sometimes not easy to track online. Sometimes it's easier to track when we have our retreats or, like our in person, things where I do sense, but I'm biased, because I'm like, the one who's like, in partly in charge of doing this. But like, do we enjoy? Are we are we enjoy? Are we having a good time together? Are we enjoying spending time together? And I think my role has shifted over the years, where now it's a little bit more about like, sort of creating some of those experiences, but also like writing, like, Am I making time for writing and creating? Because I think that that's where I find my happy place. And I think that's kind of, you know, where college is, like I started, and I think how I can have the biggest impact is through like writing and and teaching, like teaching the online pieces, and then sometimes, you know, working one on one with students.


Ali Pineo  33:20  
I love to talk about writing and teaching. Since you brought it up, you know, on your 21 details exercise that you have on the college essay guy blog, you talked about how you wanted to be a screenwriter. And so I'm wondering how you know, where are you at in terms of, you know, that aspiration that you had, and how that has evolved into being a teacher or a writer.


Ethan Sawyer  33:48  
I'm so glad that I'm not a screenwriter now, and this is coming off of, like podcasts with three screenwriter friends. This is funny that it's the fourth episode, and just listening to them, even though i i love all of them. I'm just like, I like my life. I like the path I chose so much more because I feel that in their lives, they're like, creatively, they're doing some cool things, but like, connectively, relationally, I don't know. I'm not gonna say like, they're not fulfilled, but I just see like, in terms of meeting my needs for like, relational connection, it's just so fulfilled by this work. So I had this shift, this moment when I was 2324 so like early on, where I realized that I could the work that I wanted to do, or the creative work was so much more fulfilling when done with somebody else. And what I mean by this is, like, you know, I was sort of studying screenwriting, or really stealing my best friend's USC screenwriting education and taking those principles and helping students story their lives. That was a big moment for me. Of like, oh, wow, there was like, this deep need for me, of like, I don't know, meaningful work or contribution to someone else's life. That was. Locked, and it felt much more. It just landed for me, a lot more, and meant a lot more to me than than just sort of like applying it to, like, you know, a crappy screenplay that would never get, never see the light of day. And then I think that also, when I saw how students, you know, telling their own stories was kind of could be therapeutic. And, you know, to use narrative therapy a little bit when I studied narrative therapy, like seeing how students telling their stories of their lives could be, could be life changing, I think, and or at least, like destiny bending for certain students, both in terms of the outcome of like, where they got in, but even more, sort of like on this more, I want to say, like cellular level, like there's this note that came through in Slack. I think you saw this earlier today, where a student just got accepted into their, you know, early decision school. But the thing they said was, I feel more myself after writing those essays than I did before. And our head of coaches, Calvin, commented, that's the best thing to hear acceptance and acceptance and so like that to me, of like, that deeper possibility of students feeling more acceptance for themselves. And like feels to me, like at the heart of this work. And that's when I went, Oh, that's getting to that place. Is such a creative endeavor. And all of my creative, you know, desires to sort of that manifested themselves through screenplays, was like, Oh, I can get that need, that desire for being creative, met in this other way. And once I made that decision, I was like, I don't need to be a screenwriter. I don't want to be an actor, necessarily. And I've honestly had no desire to go back, because I feel, you know, creatively fulfilled, as it were, through this work. But also, hey, I get to, like, still be an actor by doing, you know, YouTube videos and podcasts and stuff.


Ali Pineo  37:00  
I love that something just like a theme that I'm seeing emerge right now, or sort of like an all encompassing identity, is like your culture creator, which, you know, you sort of offered, like a little bit more of a nuanced you said, I'm a culture tender tenderer, in terms of, I was like, what does he mean by like, culture? Tenderer, you know, why is it like, don't you? Don't you create culture? But sort of, what I'm seeing from you is that like you like to sort of perpetuate the things that you hold most dear to you, in terms of, you know, feeling more yourself, and allowing for other students to feel that way, or to have that sort of like sense. But then also, when you were talking about, you know, how do you measure what it means to be a good father, husband, CEG, the college essay guy? And you know, it's like when Zola is connecting with you, right? That's like one of your main identities. And then, you know, when your partner, your wife, is, you know, sort of feeling spacious and unburdened. It made me think of like harmony and peace. And then, as the college essay guy, you know, you asked a bunch of questions. You didn't, sort of like dictate things. It was like very Socratic. And again, that idea of like spaciousness and joy, and that the harmonizer and you asking questions, which sort of, like, made me think a little bit about seeker. You know, when you're asking questions, you're sort of like seeking, you know, knowledge or seeking to understand, wondering, you know, how do you seek? What do you seek?


Ethan Sawyer  38:37  
Oh, okay, there's something that I want to say about culture tender. And then I want to talk about secret that's really, yeah, I'd love to get into that. So this just to clarify for folks who are like, what is, what does it mean by culture tender? So we were, I was talking about this with with John on my team, and he was like, you know, we were talking about culture creation. And he's like, I think we already have a culture at CEG at college. Si guy, I think you're not necessarily creating it. You're like, keeping it going. And I was like, yeah, what's the word that means, like, keeping it going. And I was thinking about, like a fire, where you're sort of, like, when you have to tend to the fire, like the fire is already burning. It's really about, how do we keep adding kindling and keeping the fire going? So that's kind of how I see my role at college essay guy now, now that the culture is created, it's like, how do I tend that? So it's a weird word, but culture tender is the way I think of that. And the other thing that popped up for me as you were sharing that is, there's another identity, because I don't like to see myself as, and I don't think I actually am the one who's like creating the things. I think what I'm doing is I'm synthesizing the things. And I'll give you an example of this, like a couple years ago, you know, it became evident that the team wanted a one. 135, year vision. And I was kind of, like, averse to this, because I was like, wait, don't we, don't we have a vision? Like, isn't it obvious? You know, kind of like, and people were like, Well, no. And I was and I asked the team on a zoom call, I was like, Who would like us to create a 135, year vision? And like, everyone's hand went up, and I was like, Oh, okay. And then I went, all right, well, let's talk about it. Like, what do y'all think the vision should be? And, you know, there was some conversation, but it wasn't like, there wasn't a ton of, like, we didn't I thought we were gonna be, like, get into it, and like, everybody's gonna share their opinions. And there was some, like, reticence or something. And so, you know, I did end up soliciting some input on this, and then I kind of went away with Johan on my team and wrote something up that was, like, a few pages long, and I felt self conscious doing it, because I was like, I don't want to, I don't want this to be like, Moses coming down from the mountaintop with me, like being down, like, here is our vision. But in some way, because I want, I want, I want to believe that we're much more flat organization, that we've got so much leadership, and different people are bringing it in, bringing in their positions and their you know what they care about. So I don't want to be like, here's what I think it is. But there was a way that I was being called to do that, so on a Google Doc that was editable, I proposed to the team. I was like, Hey, I think this is what our vision is. What do you think? And I was kind of, like, shy about it, but it's like, I think that's this. And then I asked the team what thoughts, and in the chat or verbally, someone was like, this is the best meeting we've had. You know, this is or some other people were like, This is exactly what we wanted. And I was like, But wait, isn't this just like the obvious stuff, like the stuff that we and what Stevie said on our team? Stevie goes Ethan, I feel like what your job is, and one of your jobs at CG is to be like lead synthesizer. And like, you took our thoughts and ideas and you kind of pulled them together, and like, reflected them back. And I was like, Ooh, I can get down with that. Like, leading in that way feels like something that I feel uniquely excited about, and like called to do. So I think that that's another one that I didn't highlight on the list, that I feel excited to do, and it is a way that I lead and and so anyway. And I was also excited about it, because as you were sort of synthesizing, as you were, like, talking about different parts of me, I was kind of like, oh yeah, I gotta bring that one in. Okay. Sorry to get to your question, seeker. How am I seeking these days? I think that if I were to again, think about my life in sort of like three stages, there was, like, pre baby, and then, like the first seven years of baby, and then, like the last two years, I think that, like, I was definitely seeking certainty and stability, and that meant being really productive. And, you know, like efficiency obsessed in some ways, and creating a lot of stuff. People like, how did you create a blog and all these posts? And first of all, the team creates a bunch of it, but a lot of it was just like, well, I worked a lot of hours, but I would say now the seeker side of me is sort of like discovering what other sides of me have been dormant and were sort of like put on sleep mode. You know, over the last seven years. And so, you know, the like, what are those different sides of me? What am I? That's what I'm looking for. And so I have some sort of early inklings of what these are ideas about what these sides of me are. And I think part of it is also, well, I'll just give one of them. Is like coming back to the the creator in me, I have this real desire to, like, be writing new things, and so I'm seeking opportunities to just like, write, create. It's my happy place. If I can spend half the day just like writing stuff so that kind of connect. Yeah, please, yeah. What


Ali Pineo  43:55  
are you What are you writing these days? Like, what topics, what? Yeah, ideas, what's inspiring you. And you could even, like, name other people's writing that's inspiring you to write about XYZ.


Ethan Sawyer  44:06  
So a few different things. One is like, so there's, there's still stuff that's in the realm of, like, college essay guy land. So I'm like, rewriting, you know, we're gonna do a revised reprint of college admission Essentials, where I've been, like, writing stuff about mental health in the college admission process and disclosures there. And some students asked, after the Supreme Court decision to ban race conscious admission, should I write about race in my college application? And so I've been writing about questions to consider. I've also been writing like really niche things, like how to weave in extracurriculars to your application and that, oh, and also about AI, like this morning, I was working on, you know, considerations for students who are thinking about using AI and whether or not to do it, and that's going to be in the in the book as well. So there's, like, college essay guy stuff, which still is really fulfilling to me, separate from that I've been i. Really interested, Ali, in the notion of enoughness. And by enoughness, this is sort of outside the realm of college essay guy, but it's like, what does it mean to do enough, to be enough? You know, you ask this question of like, what does it mean to like, be the best father, to be the best husband to be the best college essay guy. Well, each of these kind of can kind of be broken down into, like an enoughness question. So for example, a question I would ask myself is, like, how much money is enough money? How much working out is enough? And these are things that, like, one can actually go and, like, mathematically figure out and then develop projects around so part of what I've been exploring is like for myself in these different areas of my life, like I want to connect with my friends. How much is enough like? What and what are the markers of enoughness for myself? So I've been writing and thinking a lot about that, like journaling about enoughness in lots of different areas of my life. Another thing that's just recently come online is like, this poet inside of me that was in alive in high school and definitely in college, but I kind of like, put away, like, I've been sort of like, writing really short poems and like, and that's just meant, like, slowing down and spending time in in language, and not to, like, produce something that's going to be like a resource or a book, but just for me, like nobody else sees it. And so that's felt really inwardly, I would say, like, productive, yeah.


Ali Pineo  46:35  
And I love how that contrasts, sort of like the engine, where it's like, you need to, like, be doing something to produce, like an end product. Yeah. So my background is, I'm a, you know, former professional ballet dancer, and, you know, I found that once I got a contract in a company, sort of like, the creativity of and the reasons why I loved dancing all of a sudden became like commodified, and I it wasn't for me anymore. So yeah, I think that, you know, in the work that we do as writers, as artists, as thinkers, it's nice to be able to sort of have ownership over a piece that isn't supposed to generate other things for other people. So yeah, I'm really sort of connecting with that. I


Ethan Sawyer  47:18  
want to flip that. I want to double click for just a second and here, what has been your journey in terms of your own creative, you know, Fauci or, you know, focuses in terms of like, because I sort of like, quote, unquote, left it all behind. But I'm curious what either overlaps or what conflicts do you see in your own relationship to your own creative impulse and drive, and how it jives with or doesn't jive with the work that we do?


Ali Pineo  47:44  
Yeah, so that's an interesting question, because I'm sort of at a crossroads right now where, you know, I really sort of was able to have this like hybrid identity as an essay coach, as a writer, as a choreographer, as a professional contemporary dancer, and just due to, you know, life circumstances, how, you know, life evolves with challenges having a child, I have a three year old, and also this need for stability and certainty, I'm finding that I'm having to shed this layer of being a dancer and a choreographer to make Room for, you know, being more of a full time essay coach with college essay guy, but I'm okay with sort of like shedding that layer. One, I always feel like I'm a dancer. No matter what I like to move my body. I feel embodied in everything I do. And number two, it's that what brings me joy about dance is community. It's community and storytelling, and that is what I get to do every day in my work as an essay coach, I'm connecting with students, helping them to sort of identify their story, helping to amplify what it is that they're wanting to show about themselves, and I find it to be really fulfilling work. So even though I'm not, you know, getting to dance as much in the studio, I just, I still feel like connection and storytelling is central to what brings me joy. So yeah, that has been kind of my trajectory. I sort of, I feel sad when I've heard you say a couple of times, you know, I've sort of like, let let go of my like, theater and acting identity. I feel like, and I don't know why I feel a sadness when I hear you say that. Maybe it's because maybe I'm going through a shift, and I'm like, No, I'm always like, I'm always gonna be that. Well,


Ethan Sawyer  49:40  
I'll say this. I think that I really resonate with this. I'll always be that. Like, I, you know, I think I will always be an actor, but I think I think about it in, like, a broader sense of, like, playing different roles. Like, all the stuff that we're talking about is, like, I still think of this is gonna trip. People out. But like, I think of college essay guy as being like a role that I play one of many and I shift into, and this is like getting into what I studied in college, which was like performance studies. Like we perform these different things. We perform, you know, gender we perform, you know, all sorts in all sorts of ways. Anyway, my point here is that, like, each of these is just a different role that we're playing. So I still feel like I'm still getting to do those things, and then side note, like I still do voiceover sometimes on the side, like I did a, you know, some commercials for Disney just this week. So I'm still getting to do that when I want to. But it's funny, because, as you say, that sadness, I'm like, Oh, I don't feel the sadness I might have at some point. But I'm like, I don't envy. First of all, there's just, there's not a lot of work to be had out there for, like, for actors and for, you know, for writers, you know, LA and Hollywood is really, really shifting so in terms of that side. But even, like, I don't know when i It's so funny, I used to be, like, excited about a rehearsal process and be like, four hours a day, you know, five days a week. That sounds amazing. I can't imagine just giving 20 hours of my week to a play. It just doesn't sound it just doesn't sound fun, like it used to agreed


Ali Pineo  51:17  
I'm there too. Yeah, it's sort of this, like, very intense, immersive thing that can be, you know, hard to find balance. And so for I'm also somebody that values balance, and so it's hard to maintain and stay true to my desire for balance, living the artist life,


Ethan Sawyer  51:37  
but the sense of, like, the sense of unity and connectedness and community that can be created over a week, let's say, in an intensive creative process. I still get that when I go on, like, retreats, or when I go to particular, you know, five day events. So, you know, there are different types of conferences that I'll go to and I'll be, like, in intense, you know, kind of like, you know, like summer camp or Slumber Party vibes, where it's like you're really in it with people over the course of a few days. So I still get that need met in that particular way, for, like, what you're talking about, community and connection. But I just, I think I was getting a lot of needs met through theater, because that had been such a point of connection for me in high school and college and and then I was like, Oh, wait, I can get these needs met elsewhere. And, and feel like, actually, totally, really, fully, good with it. That's a lot of adverbs.


Ali Pineo  52:33  
Yeah. I'm so happy that you, you know, sort of talked about the idea about, like, performance. Because a question that I have is that you have this sort of online persona. You are everywhere, online as it as it pertains to college essays. And so I'm wondering, you know, what parts of your identity do you feel are performed for the outside world, and how do they sort of overlap with your inner world, like what is truly for you? Or do you sort of perform, you know, are you really authentic and in terms of, like, performing all of who you are? Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  53:10  
so a couple different thoughts. One is, like, when I'm recording a YouTube video, there's a there's an extra level of energy that I have to bring to, like, make the videos pop, and it's sort of turned up, and it's a little bit more than what I'm doing right now. So for example, like YouTube energy sounds like this, Hey friends, what's up college? Jessica here. Welcome back to the channel. So today we're talking about whatever the thing is. And it's like, you can hear my pitches up a little bit. There's a little bit more speed, and it's also more efficient, because you got to keep people's attention. So if I'm thinking about this in terms of values, it's like enthusiasm, it's efficiency, and it's practicality, because I really want to be helpful. And so those are all deep and true parts of me and parts that I can tap into. And I kind of like choose those. There's also something like, I don't know, I don't know if this is a value, but, like, affability that I'm choosing, and a little bit of humor. But like, 10% humor, what gets missed on YouTube, you know, Ethan is the parts of me that love to go slower, that are quiet. There's not a lot of slowness or quiet unless you watch one of the videos. It's like a work along video where I'm doing exercises and you're doing them too. There's also a part of me that's like, I think what gets missed in those fast videos is, like, what I would call wisdom. And I think the wisdom that one can tap into if one does go slower and like, you know, something like uncertainty and like that leads to critical thinking and mystery, because there's a lot of in the YouTube videos, there's a lot of like certainty and just do this, this and this, and there's step by stepness That leaves out some some variety. So I feel like, you know, in this. This happens more, like on the you mentioned teacher, like on the Webinars, you know, or in like a course that I teach, there's a little bit more time for slowness and for helping other people tap into their own wisdom and like quiet and sense of, you know, I don't know, reflective, you know, self it when it comes to, like the writerly side of me, there's sort of this, I've sort of oriented a lot of the college essay guy writing to be very like helpful and practical, but not as much. I don't know what are the pieces that are left out there. I would say it's very sort of like, it's almost like technical writing in the sense of, like, do this and then do this and do this. And so the other sides of me, like the silly side of me, or the part of me that, like, I've always wanted to do a presentation or webinar on like, voice, because voice is, like, you know, a big thing in college essays. People talk about a lot, but I've wanted to do it in terms of, like, the different voices that I can do, because I can do lots of different accents. And that's like, a fun, creative thing that I think would be really fun to do. But I'm like, well, it's not very practical, but yeah, so there's, there's that one, and then there's like, you know, accents. There's like, silly accents that I love to do, like, and I used to do this with with my students, where I would do, like, a I would teach critical reading, and I would read the passages and do different accents. You know, I'm feeling a bit self conscious now, like I'm sort of being asked, this is fantastic to like, do the do the thing. I need something? Oh,


Ali Pineo  56:31  
I get it. Yes, you know what I mean. It's like when somebody tells me, Oh, Ali, you're a dancer. Go dance for us. And, like, right?


Ethan Sawyer  56:37  
Do some dancing. I feel like, if folks want to hear me do voices, they can go to the website and hear those, because there are a bunch of different ones. But I think I feel self conscious doing more


Ali Pineo  56:48  
cool. Are you ready to brainstorm a college essay?


Ethan Sawyer  56:52  
Yes, I'm ready. Let's do it, and I'm excited to do this with


Ali Pineo  56:55  
you. Okay, cool. One of the reasons why I feel like I connected with you many years ago was because of this identity that you had as like a performer. Because I just feel like, I feel like performers are kindred spirits, and we sort of understand one another on an energetic level. And so I really felt connected. So I'm gonna again, I'm sort of going to confess that, you know, a frame that I'm seeing, and you can totally disagree with the frame, and I actually find that to be more interesting when I present a frame to a student and they're like, that makes them think of something else, and then that leads to something even greater. So of course, like, my bias is like, Ooh, you know, when we're talking about performance and performance of gender, and the performance of these different roles and our sort of outward persona versus more of our, like, authentic inner persona that that was making me think about, like, what is, you know, maybe a frame could be, you know, what I've left behind, and what I what I as a performer, you know, I've left behind this identity, and I've sort of like, you know, what am I performing now? And sort of talking about all of these different roles you play. Can I just sort of point out, like, other things, like other phrases that really stood out to me? Please. I love how you framed, like enoughness as a landscape, and how that connects to, you know, different measures of, are you doing a good job? Am I good as a father, as a husband, as the college essay guy? Let's see, I've sort of, you know, I've taken notes, something that I tend to do with students. I transcribe everything they say. This, this theme about like being dormant, put on sleep mode, or, like, being in the shadow, so not being like, you know, outwardly performing, but sort of like more inward. Let's see what are some of the other things? Yeah, you mentioned dormant a couple of times, in terms of, like, your roles and identities that are dormant or not as like, you know, sort of like readily, like out there. I love how you talk about different modes. You have a fast mode and a slow mode. This idea about shifting, right? This, this like movement, this, like feeling of movement with your identities, and then the texture of, like smooth, the smoothness as a caretaker, yeah. So, so those are, so, those are sort of like the phrasings that came up to me came up for me as like things that we could maybe attach to to create a frame that holds all of these different identities. But of course, as a performer, I sort of latched on to the the performer. So I'm wondering what is sort of, you know, feeling connective for you in terms of all of these different identities?


Ethan Sawyer  59:41  
Yeah, it's when I hear the performer one I think about cultural connotations with performing, and sometimes that's seen as, like, disingenuous or something. And so if, if I were to write a personal statement coming out of this, like, I would want to qualify and clarify what I. What, what I mean by performer. And so I think that, like, right now, I'm performing the role of interview guest, but also I'm, like, actually an interview guest, you know? And so it's sort of a tricky, sort of heady thing. So there's like, and there's other, another part of me that's, like, reticent to use that because I don't want people to think that I'm quote, unquote faking it all the time, because I don't think that's true either, so, but a thing that you said just really landed for me, and it was this notion of like, identities I've left behind. And I think that would be, I would like, I felt like some energy and like some excitement to, like, actually go and write that or go make a list of those things. And I was like, imagining that I could make a list of identities that I've left behind and say a little bit about each of those and like, and I'd be curious to hear your reflections on some of the ones that are like that you heard me mention that were interesting to you in terms of the identities I've left behind. And then I think again, no, I'm kind of, you got me in college essay mode, and I'm kind of going, Okay, I think there would probably be a pivot into something like identities that I'm calling in, like things that I'm wanting to experience and explore more in my life. And that feels like the emergent part that of me. And it feels like if I was issuing a status update, it would be like, Okay, this is the edge of my awareness around things that I'm wanting to call in more. And so I don't know. I guess I just love to hear based on what we've talked about so far, like, if we just use those two frames, like, what are some identities that you hear that I've left behind, and then what are some identities that you see me calling in and and I don't know, I'd love to hear, if you're, if you'll humor me here, like, what are some of the because I would want to focus on, like, the gifts of each of these. So each of these so not like, shaming the parts I've left behind, but be like, you know, in quotes, each one has made me who I am, but it's like, some of the positive qualities that that you see in either the ones I've left behind or the ones that I'm calling in, if you I don't know if you would be so kind, I would just love to get your thoughts.


Ali Pineo  1:02:00  
Yeah, okay, so immediately coming to mind for me, things that you've left behind but that have transformed you for the better, would be, you know, on your 21 identities, you talk about being a third culture kid, which you really talked about the themes of loneliness, but what came out of that is being a connector, and then, you know, sort of like who you were when you met your wife. You were sort of like more of an artist, a visionary, but how that evolved into you being an engine. And then you know, this desire to be, you know, a screenwriter, and how that has evolved for you. You've left that behind to become a teacher and a writer. So like, you know, yes, writing for the company, but also writing for yourself. And then in terms of a pivot of what you're calling in, I'm trying to think, did we talk about, you know, maybe, maybe that's like, what you're seeking? Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  1:02:54  
that feels true. The and you mentioned a couple that I think I'm calling in, like, even the the writing for myself feels like something that I'm calling in. There are new ways that I'm making connections I think that I'm calling in. So some of these identities have, you know, applic, you know, like there's a writerly self that was before, and like the new writerly self looks a different way.


Ali Pineo  1:03:19  
I'm wondering if you're also calling in enoughness and sort of like redefining what like self worth and what is enough, what is good, what is best for you, in a way that feels like it's not conflicting and creating tension with your other identities that


Ethan Sawyer  1:03:37  
just hit me like a ton of bricks. Like that feels like the whole deal right there. Like, calling in enoughness feels like, OMG, like yes and like, defining, yeah, I mean, yes, that that to me, that's what I'm I think that's what I'm seeking too. Is like a real, true, defined sense of enoughness


Ali Pineo  1:04:05  
and and maybe part of that is, I love how you talked about, you know, something that you may not be, quote, unquote, performing is, is mystery, something that's missing. And so how you know enoughness is, gosh, man enough miss is a mystery, right? And I feel like it's not a it's not a landing place. It's more of a it's a journey, yeah? So perhaps the mystery of of enoughness, yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  1:04:35  
I this is so good I can, like, see a structure now where there's, like, who I was, like, who I've been, and then who I'm becoming. And so, like, who I was, was an artist, was a, you know, I could riff on that. And then who I've been has been like, and then it's been like, rooted in certain values of, like, certainty, stability, you know. Yeah, anyway, like, sort of college as a guy, like, for the last, whatever, for seven years while I was raising my daughter. And then there's, like, this new me that's coming forth, that's like, embodied by the seeker, and that's interested in, like, yeah, I love this mystery that feels so true, and how mystery is sort of the not antidote, but like the pendulum swing. Because I think, for for, like, when my daughter was born and we were trying to create stability, I was really focused on certainty and like, let's make sure we pay the bills. And, you know, let's be certain. And now I'm a little bit more like, All right, well, adventure, a little mystery. Let me go on some retreats and, like, find these other sides of myself so I could see now I'm kind of like, okay, maybe six ish paragraphs, a couple paragraphs on, like, who I was, and then there's like this, so like, I'm calling this, like the three stages of my life. There's like Ethan, up until 23 really, I would, I would say, like 33 and then there was like Ethan, who was, like, you know, building college essay guy from, you know, from zero to seven years. And then, like, yeah, like, that's sort of like, phase two. And then, like, for the last couple years, who's Ethan phase three? Who am I becoming? Yeah, I'm starting to, like, see a structure here that's kind of exciting.


Ali Pineo  1:06:21  
I love it. And I love how the new me, there's, there's hints of or callbacks to the artist, right? Or when I at least when I think my own perception of artists, and what that that word, what that identity embodies, where there's like, a little bit more comfortability with like the amorphous and the abstract and the new me, how it's sort of coming back to, like, being okay with mystery and and defining something that's sort of, in my eyes, undefinable, like enoughness, right? That's that's also shifting and as transient as identity is, so Yeah, beautiful, sort of like full circle everything sort of calls back, and there's connective threads between all three through all three stages of who you are. So do you see this as like a multiple identities essay, or as just like a singular identity that you're wanting to riff off of?


Ethan Sawyer  1:07:17  
Oh, okay, yeah. I love this question. Okay, so I think I can definitely see this as the like. There are many identities that have made me who I am, and that sounds fun to write, and I feel like I could. I think I would probably start there, and I would write this as like. Here are different ways that I have like, different identities that have like manifested in my life, in terms of, I'm going to look at the list a second. Is there one identity to rule them all? One Ring to rule them all? Let's see. So I think that, like, let me just see what the candidates would be. So synthesizer, I guess I could see synthesizer that might that sounds a little technical, because I was synthesizing certain things when I was in my 20s, and then synthesizing new things in my 30s, and then synthesizing new things in my 40s. I don't know seeker. Let's see different things that I've been seeking. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Seeker is a candidate here where I was like, seeking, I don't know creative fulfillment or something in my 20s, and then seeking certainty and stability in my 30s, and now I'm seeking like I don't know mystery. So I think seeker could do it. That could be cool. I'm really I love the mystery thing that you brought up, and I love the idea of seeking mystery that's kind of seems cool and feels like yummy, just for where I'm at in life right now. So I but I hesitate to, so here's why I'm pausing. Is like, I hesitate to like. I think if I were to come up with an identity now, I would be writing it with sort of like this. I don't know, a too narrow vision of myself. And so what I think I would probably do is just write a first draft that doesn't, you know, impose or bring in a single identity, and then I would like, sort of be on the lookout for it, and like, taking the what you've asked me as, like, a seed planted, and then just like, write and see what, what comes of it. Because it could be that, as I'm writing this, that the seeker thing just doesn't end up being a common theme or thread much at all. So


Ali Pineo  1:09:22  
cool? Yeah, I think seeker is nice. I'm sort of looking at my notes, and you had, you know, a lot to say under seeker, and I feel like it might even call forth other identities, right? So even though the essay is primarily about your seeker identity, how like within that, you know, being a seeker, you call forth different roles and identities, as, you know, because I feel like we're not always and I use the word performing, not meaning like, you know, it's inauthentic, but you know, sort of like how we are living out our internal landscape. And so, you know, calling forth these different roles and identities. That are just like, more alive in certain moments than in others. Yeah, yeah, because some, you know, some shift to the foreground and background at different times. And so when I talk about performance, I sort of am thinking about that a little bit more than, like, acting or being inauthentic. But yeah, I love, I love this, this seeker identity. I feel like I see that in you, yeah, and I think, you know, mystery is kind of a prevalent theme for the writing process in general. So, you know, as you go off to if you were my student and I was sort of sending you off to write this essay, let them know that, you know, being comfortable with mystery in the writing process, meaning, you know, even though we have, like, a pretty clear way forward and this outline that there is, there's inevitable mystery in, you know, the actual taking of ideas from outline into paragraph form. And so, you know, allow for those ideas to lead and guide you where they will because oftentimes this is just the beginning of the work, and then the first draft is continuing to be an explorer and a seeker the things that you didn't even think about when we had initially put together the outline. So yeah, sort of let the mystery bring excitement and new ideas, and feel free to include those I like to tell students overwrite, because there's so much more that often comes out when you are taking, you know, these abstract ideas into written form. How was, I want to know, how was this process for you being, you know, the play, playing the role of the student.


Ethan Sawyer  1:11:37  
It was, I mean, it's funny. It's, I feel first of all, really seen by you. I appreciated your questions. I appreciated the connections that you made. And I don't think I registered this verbally or even, like, visually, because we can see each other right now, but like, there were like, little moments of insight where you connected two things, like, for me, where I was like, oh, right, yes, of course. And I also felt really inspired and energized to, like, make new connections. So I was like, and I didn't expect to the extent that I would feel like I would have, like, a really, I wouldn't hold that we would have, like, a clear outline. But I'm, like, actually feeling like I could go write this thing now. So I feel, you know, some, like, some energy around that. And I do, I love to do this, like, you know, once a year or so. I don't do it every year, but I do like to do this again and again from time to time. How else do I feel? I feel I feel a little like self conscious, because I think there's something about this. I feel like this is self indulgent or something where I don't know. I feel like I've been doing a lot of the talking, but I'm like the interviewee here, but it's just a little bit uncomfortable or unfamiliar. I guess it's unfamiliar, because I'm sort of used to doing the listening on these, so there's some little element of, like, self consciousness, but yeah, if I could, like, shift into like, oh, Ethan, that's the way this was supposed to be, then I'm like, Oh yeah, right, that was the way it's supposed to be. And that's


Ali Pineo  1:12:59  
so funny. You see it that way, because I actually describe, you know, students like you who are so willing to talk about their life as generosity. So yeah, just like, so grateful for the generosity and everything you shared, letting me just, you know, letting me step into your world and getting to know you better. Just like, yeah, really, really fun experience. That's


Ethan Sawyer  1:13:21  
a really useful reframe for me, Ali, like, just on a on a personal level, like, probably on a professional level too, but like seeing that as generous, like something in me just settles hearing that


Ali Pineo  1:13:35  
cool. Well, yeah, thank you for letting me into your world today. So grateful to know you.


Ethan Sawyer  1:13:41  
I'm grateful to know you. Hey, friends, thanks for listening again. This is officially the end of the storytelling and identities series. I promise for real this time, but you can be sure we'll pick up these themes again very soon. We've got some cool new resources coming out. You can get all of them, get updates and all the things by subscribing to pretty much anything on our website, college, sa guy.com, and that's it. Be well and stay curious. You.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai