215: 17 Things Students of Color (+ Their Counselors and Parents) Should Know When Applying to College

Ethan Sawyer  0:08  
Hey, friends, it's me College Essay Guy back after a hiatus, and very glad to be back. I'm excited to share with you a conversation I had with Sydney Montgomery on 17 things students of color can do when applying to college, and how their counselors and parents can support them. In this episode, we cover, among other things, ways that students of color can advocate for themselves while in high school, how to research historically black colleges and universities, ways to learn more about fit at colleges that are not minority. Serving where you can find more financial aid after you've been accepted. How parents can get involved to advocate for students in high school and in college, how counselors can more fully serve students of color, and some first steps that counselors can take to become more focused on racial equity and anti racism. All this and more coming up. Well, let's get into it. My guest today is Sydney Montgomery. She is the owner and founder of s Montgomery admissions consulting with over a decade experience working with and inspiring teachers from all walks of life. In addition to her seven years working with and managing others at a nationwide educational consulting company, her experiences included being a private performing arts teacher and academic tutor and mentor. Sydney is a graduate of Princeton with a certificate in French language and culture, Harvard Law School and the University of California Irvine with a certificate in consulting. She's guided high school students through the college admissions process since 2012 she's the daughter of an immigrant mother and a military father, and knows firsthand how daunting the admissions process can be for first gen, college and law school students, and really works hard to push students to be inspired, empowered and achieve their full potential. She's also an associate member of the IECA, that's the independent Educational Consultants Association, on both the Graduate School Committee and the ethics committee and a member of the Potomac and Chesapeake association for college admissions counseling. Sydney. Welcome to the podcast.


Sydney Montgomery  2:08  
Thanks so much for having me. Ethan,


Ethan Sawyer  2:10  
yeah, so I'd love to just hear just check in with you, like, what's what's alive for you today? I love


Sydney Montgomery  2:16  
that question, and it's so timely. So I have been trying to really set some intentions with my mornings this week. So I've been getting up way earlier than I normally do. I've been getting up at seven, and I've been praying every day, and even though I'm a little tired because I'm waking up so early, it really just invigorates me. And I'm finding that I have this energy that I don't usually have during the day. So it's been really great. I


Ethan Sawyer  2:39  
love that as as someone who I've tried to meditate off and on like throughout my life, and I just never been able to get it together, I feel inspired and and called to task by and that's a weird thing to say. Called to task by this, but I love hearing that, and thanks for being here. I'd love to understand more about we've talked about this a little bit, but I want folks to hear a little bit about, why do you do this work, the work that you do? Yeah,


Sydney Montgomery  3:05  
so I, I feel called to it. I feel that I have been really blessed. I mean, my parents didn't go through the traditional college process, and I'm the first lawyer in my family, and I know that most people with a Harvard law degree would be out, you know, at a big firm, but I really feel strongly that there needs to be more support for black and brown students, for first gen students, just more information. So I really want to inspire kids and help them get to their full potential.


Ethan Sawyer  3:35  
Alright, so here's 17 things that students of color need to know when applying to college, and a nice side of advice for parents and counselors along the way. All right. Sidney, kick us off.


Sydney Montgomery  3:44  
Yeah. So the first thing that I would absolutely say is you need to own your journey, right? You need to feel empowered and feel inspired that your academic journey and your academic progress is something that you can take control of. And I know sometimes it doesn't feel that way. I know sometimes it feels like you know everyone is making decisions for you, or things are sometimes not fair, but I do try to emphasize that they have the power to speak up. So the first thing is, if you're a student and you feel like you haven't been placed in the right class, like if you've been placed in a class that's below your academic level, or maybe you see all your friends advancing, and you know that you got the same grade as them, but they're an honors class, and you're not speak up and ask to, you know, advocate for yourself. I think there's a respectful way that you can, you know, ask to be put into a higher level. And I think that people sometimes underestimate how big an impact this can have. Because not only could this drastically changed, like a long term, four year course trajectory. You know, if you're in one class that has a prerequisite for another class, but it will also show your teachers and the people in that school that you take initiative, that you care about your learning, and that can speak action. You know, that can just speak volumes about your character. And I think. Parents, especially, especially younger children. Maybe they're in elementary school and they haven't quite learned how to self advocate for themselves. I want them to feel empowered that they can reach out to the counselors. They can reach out to the schools if they notice them happening. Notices happening. So I encourage them to be vigilant about checking their students, course and level placement, because sometimes it's subtle. Sometimes it happens. You know, it happened even to my own sister and I'm in this education business, you just notice, like, Oh, why is one of your friends taking this class? And how did that happen? But there's also ways to correct that. There's summer programs. They can take a course to kind of get you back on track. A lot of times, these recommendations happen based on teacher perception. And, you know, I don't think teachers have a negative agenda or anything like that. But you know, when you're trying to recommend students for honors classes or AP classes, maybe you don't recommend the student that didn't speak up as much. Maybe that student has a lot going on at home, or they're just quieter. So I think that, you know, students can sometimes when they speak up and the teacher is like, Oh, well, I didn't know you were interested in this honors or AP class, but of course, I think I can place you there, and counselors at schools can also take notice of students who seem to be over performing and under stimulating courses. I think the misconception is that, Oh, I'm getting straight A's. I must be doing really great in school, but sometimes getting straight A's is a little bit of a red flag. It's like, Well, are you in the highest level in getting straight A's? Could you be challenged a little bit more? I think that's just something people need to be a little bit more aware of. So number two is that students really should strive to take courses beyond just the bare minimum that their high school requires. Sometimes counselors and teachers will say, Well, you only need four credits of this, so you only need two credits of that. And you internalize that as that's the goal. And once I hit the goal, I don't have to do anything besides that. I think really, when you're a freshman, you don't know what kind of colleges you might be interested as a junior and senior. That's a really like big mistake that I see, too, is that maybe you didn't think you were even going to go to college as a freshman, but by the time you get to junior year, you have these really good goals and ambitions, but your schedule doesn't reflect that, because you stop taking classes after you hit like, you know, the requirement, or especially if it's two classes of foreign language, and you take it in middle school, so you Then you decide you're not gonna take any foreign language. Not gonna take any foreign language in high school. That really does limit your options when you then go to apply, even if you've done everything right in high school, you may not have taken the classes to be competitive for those selective schools. So, you know, don't take classes that you don't like. Don't take classes that are going to make you miserable. But if there's a subject that you do like, go all the way, you know, keep keep going. Keep at it. Take four years of math. The third thing I would say is that students really need to evaluate their college application list. I think this is another place where students sometimes don't advocate for themselves, or they don't have the confidence in their in their academic abilities and their academic worth. So this is really important, because statistically, minority students, especially low income minority students, but all minority students tend to under match in the college process. And under matching means that they don't go to or a lot of times they don't even apply to schools that are meeting their academic potential, and this can happen for a variety of reasons, financial, needing to stay closer to home for family reasons or family responsibilities, not having access to information, and sometimes not being told that that's a place that they should even strive to not knowing anyone who has Gone to those schools and feeling like it's unattainable. So this is hard, because how do you know if your college list is, you know, matched for you? How do you know if it's at your academic level? I think there's a few different ways that you can get some like estimated, objective data. One place is to do a college search on College Board, big future, or the college navigator sometimes, if your school might use Naviance, those are ways for you to put in your test scores and your GPA, and then you can see what the schools are that are coming into those search results. And so if the schools that are coming into those search results are all highly selective schools, and you only have you know schools that are not selective on your list, then you might want to look at that, or maybe it's the opposite, which is also a good marker. I'm not saying that you have to apply to those schools, but it's just good to know the types of schools that students like you have gotten into, and where you can aim. And this is something that counselors can also help with, because they can be looking at the schools that they're recommending and kind of try to push themselves to think a little further. And maybe counselors can even collaborate with other counselors, especially counselors of color, when recommending schools to students, to make sure that there's no unintentional implicit bias happening, because that can happen, and that phenomena. Going on does contribute to under matching you know your counselors recommendations or or dissuasions, a little bit sometimes has been shown to happen, and so having checks and balances on the system can help make sure that students are given the appropriate list. Absolutely. Number four is that it's equally important that students and counselors have a good fit relationship. And this is also hard because counselors, of course, want to help students, and they want to be there for every student, but it's almost like dating. You're not always going to be a really good match, even if both people individually are fantastic. Research shows that students are less likely to seek college when they perceive that their counselor does not expect them to go to college, or when they are unclear about their counselors aspirations for them, and this perception is sometimes through no fault of the counselor, but the result and the impact is still the same. So students should feel that they have agency to talk to their counselors about any concerns that they have in the relationship, have have an open and frank conversation about your goals, where you see yourself going, and where the counselor sees you going, and how they want to be part of your future, and have it early. And if there are any issues, try to talk to that. Talk that out with your counselor as well. If you're just not getting along, it's not a good fit. I want students to feel like they can ask to switch counselors, and I want counselors to try to be open to concerns brought to them by students of color, and recognize when it's not a good fit, or when there's a counselor that could better serve that student and not be defensive or take it on as you know someone's blaming you. Sometimes there's just a better person for that student,


Ethan Sawyer  11:41  
right? And one thing that I love what you said about I think that if, if they're listening to a podcast on college admissions consulting, they probably, you know, there's, you know, your counselors, your students probably know that you expect them to go to college. But one thing that I think is so important that you said is that are, you know, are the students that you're working with clear about what your aspirations are for them, right? That's so interesting. I wonder, are there any examples you can think of of ways that counselors have clarified for their students? Hey, you know, whatever it is, here's my aspiration for you, here's here's what's happening, here's the plan,


Sydney Montgomery  12:18  
right? So I think part of the tension that comes is that counselors don't want to influence a student on where to go to college, and they want the student to find their best fit, and they don't want to just do something or go to a certain college because the counselor is telling them to. So I think especially for independent counselors, we like to give lots of exploratory space. But I think there's definitely ways of saying, and I've said this to some of my students, I think you're brilliant, and I think you could go to these type of schools if you wanted to. You don't have to. I always tell my students this, you don't have to. That phrase comes after, like almost everything that I say, so that they know that they can say no, which is hard. It's hard to be comfortable saying no, and I know that I struggle with that in my own life, so I always give my students that out, but I tell them I think this type of school is a school that would be a good academic fit for you. So the fifth one, the fifth point, is that students shouldn't be afraid to also form allies outside of their counselor and teacher, and I want them to have that Sean constellation, but there's other people in the school who can maybe go to bat for you. There's the staff, there's para educators, there's coaches, there's a custodial staff, there's security. I know at my high school, the security guards were like, everyone's best friend, I still go back, and they're still there, and they know who I am, and they're just the people where, if you are kind of having a bad day, or if it's just you need a hand, or you need someone to listen to you, you can really form allies there. And I think it goes to the perception of school being a place that is comforting and supporting you, and having more allies in school will help you have a more positive perception of school, which will ultimately help you when you're trying to go to college. The sixth point is that still on relationship building, because I think it's important, if a student doesn't feel like they have a strong relationship with their teacher, when it comes time to ask for letters of recommendation, and even if they do have a strong relationship with their teacher, students should prepare a brag sheet for their teachers.


Ethan Sawyer  14:20  
So just in case folks don't know, tell us what is a brag sheet? Yeah,


Sydney Montgomery  14:25  
that's a great question. A brag sheet is a quick, one to two page document that gives the teacher an overview of your academic accomplishments, the classes that you've taken, grades, maybe some test scores, your academic interests. It's a really good idea to go beyond just the numbers, though, and I want you to list like your strong qualities and maybe two to three anecdotes or memories that you have with the teacher. The strongest letter of recommendations usually include these anecdotes and these like kind of personal references and examples of your character, but your teacher may have a lot of letters to write. And they may not remember all of the anecdotes, especially if you didn't have them that year. So giving them these details and attaching it as a separate document to your request will help ensure that they have a strong and personal and compelling letter for you. And this can also be both for your teachers and your counselors, especially if you go to kind of a larger High School where your counselor might have a lot of students or maybe you don't know your counselor very well, giving them this outside background information is really helpful. The reason why this is especially important for students of color is that research has shown that there is a possibility for implicit bias to seep in to teacher and counselor letters of recommendation. So providing this information ahead of time is going to help both yourself and your teacher and counselor give you the strongest letter


Ethan Sawyer  15:44  
possible. So important, keep us rolling. Tip number


Sydney Montgomery  15:48  
seven, moving away from relationship building a little bit going into finances, and this is for students and parents. Parents and students should start to request information about FAFSA, the Free Application for Federal Student Aid and financial aid, just in general, in the ninth grade. So black and Latinx students are just more likely to be first generation students, and historically, black and Latinx families don't have as much generational wealth. So financial aid is really important. So it's really important that they begin educating themselves about the different types of degrees, about the different types of aid, so that they're prepared in the beginning of their students academic career. Now, if your school doesn't have parent meetings for ninth and 10th grade, you can always ask to set one up with the counselor. You can tell I'm a big proponent of asking for things. Ask not, receive not don't wait for the 11th grade parent meeting. Yes, and if parents and students aren't able to get an early meeting, they can go themselves to the College Board, big future tools and calculators, where they can find their estimated family contribution, which is kind of the estimated amount that you know the school or the government is saying that they should be able to afford to pay for school so they can find the estimated amount for federal aid on the FAFSA forecaster. Yeah.


Ethan Sawyer  17:07  
And if anybody's frantically writing down or trying to rewind to remember what Sydney's talking about here, don't worry. This is all going to be all the links are going to be in the show notes page, so you can just go to the podcast page and then click on the link that's associated with this podcast.


Sydney Montgomery  17:20  
Perfect. That's amazing. Tip number eight, speaking about financial aid, it's important that parents and students put the right schools on their list financially. So I know we talked about putting the right schools on your list academically, but there's several pieces to fit right. It's academics, it's social, emotional, it's financial. So how do you do that as a student? So you want to make sure, as a student, you filled out the FAFSA forecaster, the College Board, EFC Expected Family Contribution calculator, and you want to look at what that number is. If your family has a high demonstrated need, that means that your expected family contribution is small. You're not expected to be able to afford a lot for school, then you want to put schools on the list that meet a large percentage of demonstrated need. You know, if you're a family that has low need, though, that means that your expected family contribution is high, or the schools expect you to be able to pay a large percentage of your college tuition, then you want to be looking for schools that give great merit aid instead of need based aid. So I'm going to shout out a couple colleagues that I love, Jeff Levy and Jenny Kent at Big J educational consulting. They have these amazing resource guides on their website. They do these every year. I know Ethan's talked about it in previous podcasts. They will have a whole chart that will show you the average demonstrated need that schools meet for both need based aid and then merit based aid. So you can use those to kind of see what schools might be a good fit financially for you. And


Ethan Sawyer  18:54  
just in case, students are like, not sure what the difference is. What is the difference between merit aid versus need based aid? That's a great


Sydney Montgomery  19:01  
question. So need based aid is really just based on your family's financial circumstances. It's because your family doesn't make enough money to be able to pay for the school. Merit based aid is based on academics or maybe a performing arts or visual arts or athletics, it's because you've done well as a student. It has nothing to do with how much money your family has. So some schools give really generous merit based aid, but they don't give a lot of need based aid. And if you're a kid whose family needs a lot of need based aid because of your family's financial circumstances, going to schools that only give merit based aid is not going to give you the kind of money that you're looking for.


Ethan Sawyer  19:47  
Are we going to talk about appeals later? Or can we do a quick thing, a quick thing about appeals now? Yeah, I'll give a quick example from my own experience, like I was a zero EFC kid, which meant that my family, we needed a lot of. Eight for me to go to college, and the first application package came in, great. I got in, awesome. And then waiting to find out, waiting to find out, and the money that I got wasn't enough, and I was devastated. And I was like, oh my god, I'm not going to make it to Northwestern. And then I don't know if it's my counselor, somebody was like, You know what? Just call and ask them. And we call my dad called ask them, hey, is there anything we could do? And they said, Write a letter. Let us know what your situation is. It's basically, it's called an appeal. And lo and behold, they're like, You know what? We can make this work. So there's a guide that I've got on the website that we'll link to in the podcast on how to write a good financial aid appeal letter, in case the money you get. Because just know that that's not the end of the story, especially if you act early, because a lot of times students wait, and they're like, kind of stressed, and they're waiting and they're like, the behind the scenes that college is like, giving away that money, and that when that money's gone, it's gone, you know, in a lot of cases. So anyway,


Sydney Montgomery  20:52  
I know, but that's a really good point, and students can do it themselves, too. I actually had a similar experience. I got into Princeton, the money came back and knew wasn't enough. And, you know, I actually went during the admitted students day to financial aid and just like, look, we need we need more. I don't even remember if I wrote a formal letter. Now, you definitely do, but back then I didn't. I was just like, this is not going to work for my family. And they came back with 11,000 more dollars. And like, the aid that you get your first year is usually the aid that you have the next four years. And so it stayed at that level. I didn't have to keep going back every year. And really that was a $44,000


Ethan Sawyer  21:37  
whatever hour, like that hour that you decided, this is what I like to tell students, is like that, that hour that you decide to write that letter or make that phone call that's maybe going to be the best paid hour of your life?


Sydney Montgomery  21:47  
Yes, yes. And I was in takes being vulnerable, but that's how I've always known as a person. And I think sometimes we're afraid to admit when we can't afford things, we're afraid to let anyone find out about our economics, but if people don't know about your situation. They can't help you, right?


Ethan Sawyer  22:03  
Absolutely. Amen. Yes. Keep us going.


Sydney Montgomery  22:06  
Great. I'm so glad that we talked about that, still on the topic of advocating for yourself. Tip number nine is that when it comes to applying students, should not be afraid to advocate for themselves in the early stages of the college application process. So we talked about appeals at the end of the college application process, but you can actually get some of these admission fees, application fees waived, even if you don't qualify for free and reduced lunch or fee waiver for college board or meet a certain poverty level. There are a lot of people who make more money to qualify than for those programs, but then don't make enough to actually pay for things that was that was me, that was, like my whole childhood, and so you feel kind of stuck, and each application sometimes is $70 $80 it's absurd, but you can email them actually, and I've helped students do this over the years. You can email them directly, and some schools will want a letter from your counselor just explaining the situation. Some schools will need a little bit more documentation, but there are a lot of schools that will work with you. So if you're saying we don't qualify for anything, but I also can't afford to apply to more than two schools, pull back out your list. Start sending some emails. Get your counselor that goes back to that counselor relationship, get your counselor to help you, and I think you will be able to have a lot more things work in your favor. Point number 10, while we're still on the subject of college lists, is that students shouldn't overlook the importance of historically black colleges and universities. Many of these may not be recommended by your guidance counselor, but there are some phenomenal options. You know, for example, North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University, which is often just called North Carolina, A and T, it's the single largest producer of black engineers in the country, like in the country. So if you're a black student and you want to be an engineer, and you're feeling like there aren't really great options for you. There are really great options for you. There are a few good resources for looking up information on these. HBCUs, the 107 is the first and only searchable database of all academic programs offered by HBCUs. Definitely a resource. I would book bookmark. HBCU lifestyle also has college profiles of the HBCUs as well as scholarships and information for parents on financing and just like what it's like to be black in college, I think those are two phenomenal resources. There's also a resource called HBCU Connect, which is fantastic. They've got social media out there, so you can definitely find them. There were some virtual tours that happened this year, post COVID and pre COVID. I know that there are groups that do these HBCU tours, like you can go in person at like, a low cost. So definitely look those up. And even


Ethan Sawyer  24:53  
if you've not heard of the school, right, it can be cool to sort of just get to know because you never know where you're going to end up. You never know who. Is going to be the one to tell you about such and such school that wasn't even on your radar. Suddenly you hear about it, and, boom, it changes the trajectory of your life. Yeah.


Sydney Montgomery  25:06  
And a pro tip, kind of a bonus tip, is that if you see an HBCU at a college fair in the fall or sometimes in the spring, I mean, I did the virtual HBCU tours in May, a lot of them have on the spot admissions. A lot of them have on the spot scholarships. I mean, my church does an HBCU College Fair. I go to Mount COVID Baptist Church in Rockville, Maryland, and I think we gave like a home for $100,000


Ethan Sawyer  25:31  
in scholarships that day. Wow, no. So tell a student, what an on the spot admission and on the spot scholarship. Like, literally means, like, what does that what does


Sydney Montgomery  25:37  
that mean? It literally means you come to the college fair with your transcript and maybe a printed application form. Sometimes they have them there for you, and you, you literally just give it to them, and they admit you right there, like they tell you right then, and there you're in. Yes, that's it. Like, great. And sometimes, you know, especially if your GPA is such or you want to bring your test scores if you have them, but if you meet certain thresholds. It's like you're in and here's $20,000 a year. Boom, yeah, you don't have to have an application fee, you know, you don't even really have to apply. You just You were right there. And that's what they're about. They're about getting students in college. It's not that they are, you know, sometimes there's a misconception that if a school is super easy to get into, it's not a good school. That's not what it's about. It's about increasing access. Because they know that there are so many students who don't know how to do the application process, who don't have the funds for it, who don't have someone to guide them through it. And so they're opening the doors. Yes, they're easier, perhaps, to get into. But then when you get there, the mentorship and the resources specifically for black students, for helping you achieve the alumni network that you have. They're going to be set up for success, and a lot of times they're significantly cheaper than other options, because they're not trying to have you get into debt either,


Ethan Sawyer  26:53  
right? We that you what you can hear y'all, I hope students are listening to this that like we want y'all to have options, so it's okay to apply to those highly selective schools, but know that, nationally speaking, most schools accept most students. Like most schools have a higher than a 50% acceptance rate, so colleges are looking to accept you now if you're only applying to these highly selective and you're like, if I don't get into whatever, you know, these three schools, I'm not gonna go whatever. I'll get a job. I'll go to community college. Just know that there are schools out there that are that want you, that are looking for you if you're willing to apply, if you're willing to work hard, you know they want to make it work. So,


Sydney Montgomery  27:29  
yeah, no. And I think the statistic that I read somewhere was over 75% of schools admit over 75% of their students. Yeah. I mean, that's what that's huge. Yeah, that's huge. So tip number 11, let's say, Okay, you are researching schools, and you're not looking at an HBCU. You're trying to determine, like, Okay, how is this maybe predominantly white institution? Like, how is it a good fit for me? How do I know that I would ask you to speak to students in the Black Student Union or other cultural affinity groups when you go to visit either in person or virtually. Let's say you have no idea how to get in contact with them. Ask the admissions officers to connect you. That's another email that you can send that will help bridge and start those relationships while you're there. Also ask to speak to any nationwide groups that they have, or you can ask the black or black student or Latinx Student Union, if they have nationwide groups such as the National Society of Black Engineers or the Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers, or the American Indian Science and Engineering Society. Those organizations they're student run, usually, but they connect to a much larger professional network after graduation that lasts forever, that will help you get jobs, that will help you get internships, that will help you when you're 40 and looking to make a career move like you, can always rely on those organizations. They're so invaluable. Tip number 12, when you're researching schools, and this is for all schools, students can look up a school's profile on the common data set. Now I'm going to get a little technical here, so bear with


Ethan Sawyer  29:01  
me. But what is the common data set? Explain this to us? The common data


Sydney Montgomery  29:06  
set is a required set of information that every school has to have, and it's the same metrics on enrollment, graduation, their programs, admissions, financial aid, everything. So you can really get a good picture of a school from the common data set. Now, a lot of schools are not going to put it in places where you can easily find you're not going to accidentally walk into the common data set when you're just like looking at the pictures on the website. That's not going to happen. So how do you find the common data set? The easiest way is to google it, literally put in, you know, Sunny Side University, common data set, and it'll probably be the first thing that pops up. So there's a couple of sections I want to highlight that can really help you when you're trying to learn out, like, learn more about a school and learn whether it's a good fit for you. So if you scroll down to section B, because the sections are lettered. You will find enrollment information there. You'll see the number of students and a breakdown by race and gender that's huge. The second and later portions of the pages will also include the number of students who are enrolled, who are Pell Grant eligible, as well as the number of students who took out federal loans and the type of loan, whether it was subsidized or unsubsidized, the admissions data starts in Section C. Key points here is that it includes information about a school's wait list policy as well as general admission requirements, but it'll also tell you how the school weighs academic and non academic factors. So how important is your GPA? How important is demonstrated interest your extracurricular activities, Legacy affiliation, they range on a scale from very important to not consider it at all. Like some schools, do not consider demonstrated interest at all. It does not matter how many times you visited. It does not factor in. Some schools, demonstrated interest is very important. The number of times you visit and the number of times you make contact with the school is a large factor to your admissions So knowing that, or not knowing that, can really be a game tracker, a game changer, demonstrated interest is also called the level of applicants interest on the common data set. And you know, like I said, this can include things like making visits, attending virtual information sessions, sending emails to the admissions officer. If you keep scrolling down, Section H gives you an even more detailed breakdown of financial aid information. And these data points can be really helpful when you're looking at your own financial situation.


Ethan Sawyer  31:35  
Great. And just a quick side note that if students, if you're hearing this and you're like, demonstrated interest, I haven't heard of that, or I'm not sure what that's about. On the show notes page, you'll see a whole guide to demonstrated interest and how you can use that in your application process. That's something that I think a lot of students don't think about in terms of they're usually thinking about, Oh, my grades, my test scores, and maybe they're thinking about their essays and extracurriculars, but showing schools the love that you care, especially these, some of these smaller schools that you would be likely to accept an offer if you were offered a place there can be huge now, not necessarily for all schools, like you're saying, Sydney, but that's, by the way, in Section c7 I have it memorized of that common data set, so just wanted to underscore that. Thank you. No problem.


Sydney Montgomery  32:18  
Yeah, it's so important. I had no idea about the common data set when I was applying. Like no idea. So tip number 13 is that students should make sure that they are applying to scholarships offered by black sororities and fraternities. There are so many scholarships available to you. There are nine black Greek letter organizations that make up the national pan Hellenic Council, and these organizations are often referred to as the divine nine. So most of the Divine nine offers scholarships for African American high school students, and not just rising seniors. Some of them are for freshmen, sophomores, juniors. You know, there's a lot of opportunities there. Students should also look at scholarships through the United Negro College Fund. I've got links to that in the show notes. I believe tip number 14 going right along with that is that many black churches also provide scholarships for their members at either the local church level or at the denominational level. So denominational level, what does that mean? So like I said, I go to Mount Calvary Baptist Church. We are part of the American Baptist churches of the South, so that Baptist denominational level would have some scholarships. You might be Episcopalian, you might be Methodist. You want to look at those kind of national organizations. Tip number 15, when you're applying to these scholarships and also when you're applying to colleges in general, don't discount things like church activities, helping out at home with younger siblings, working at the grocery store. So many people, like, I don't have extracurricular activities, like, what do you do all day? And then they start listing all of these things that are taking your time. Those are extracurricular activities. Those are the things that you're doing. You're contributing. If you're working a job, you're contributing. You maybe have some teamwork. Maybe you have some leadership. If you have leadership, if you're taking care of your sibling, you have initiative. If you're in your church, you are giving back. Sometimes you're civic minded. There are a lot of great qualities that come with those. Just because you're not on a soccer team or, you know, dance competitions or something like that, doesn't mean that they're any less valuable?


Ethan Sawyer  34:21  
Absolutely, we'll include a little link to a list of things activities that students have put in their activities list that count. And you can take a look at that, and it might jog your memory of like things that you've done in the past that you thought, I don't want to put that on my activities list. Colleges want to know what you've spent your time doing. You know, if they look at your activities list, right? And it's kind of bare bones, it's kind of like got one thing and got one thing in there. They're like, Well, what have you spent your time doing those things that, like you said, supporting your family, that's huge, that's huge. And colleges want to know about that. It


Sydney Montgomery  34:50  
shows a lot of maturity, a lot of growth, and a different perspective that they definitely want, yeah, and,


Ethan Sawyer  34:56  
well, you know, one of the things we'll add there is, like, sometimes students. Get tripped up with, well, how do I describe it in a way that sounds good, you know? And so we'll include a little link that explains just how to describe that, so you'll see some examples of


Sydney Montgomery  35:09  
that. That's great. Tip number 16 is tangentially related, but when you're thinking about, you know, the activities that you're doing, and you're thinking about your contributions academically and extracurricularly. I want you to be thinking also about the type of academic programs that you're in, and some of those may be specialized programs. You might see magnet programs, or, you know, advanced enrollment programs. I know at my high school, clarksburg high school, we had an advanced placement power Scholars Program. And so every school district is different, but students can find out about these by asking their guidance counselor, either in elementary school or middle school, or just knowing to Google. I think knowing that these programs are out there is one of the biggest things, and parents can also find out about these programs through the PTSA. And by the way, the s in PTSA stands for student. So you you know students can get involved with their PTSA. They don't sometimes know that. And then parents and students can contact their local school board if they want to find out more about these programs and how they get into them. Yes. And my final tip, tip number 17, along with that, is on a policy level, parents can push school districts and boards of education to fund schools on an equitable, rather than an equal basis, to combat education disparities. I know a lot of people maybe have seen the tree about, you know, equity versus equality versus justice, but just to kind of break it down, equality means that you're giving everyone the same thing, no matter where they are. So you're giving a rich school the same amount of money as you're giving a lower income school. Equity means that you are giving everyone what they need to get to the same level. So you're giving more money to the lower income school than the rich school so that they can be on the same playing field, and so there's a lot of times where these programs don't end up in lower funded schools, or the money doesn't end up in lower funder schools. So parents, I want to empower you, and I want to encourage you to contact your local city or county council, contact your local board of education if there's a PTSA, get involved that way, so that you can learn the information that you need to advocate for larger policy changes. You know this equitable funding can go towards ensuring that students have access to better technology, smaller class sizes, well trained teachers, culturally competent trained teachers. And you notice resources to support your students, because we have to advocate for our own


Ethan Sawyer  37:41  
before we wrap. I'd love for you to just speak directly to counselors for a minute or two and just give us a sense of what are some things that they can be doing and thinking about.


Sydney Montgomery  37:50  
Yeah, so you know, counselors are so powerful, and I think that there's a lot of things that they need to be aware of, though, when they're working with either lower income or minority, because they're not the same, like not all minority students are low income, but, um, and not all low income students are minority, but there are things that they do need to be aware of. So the above tips that I did are not an exhaustive list of all the things that students of colors need to know. It really just barely scratches the surface of what students and parents are navigating, and, you know, trying to dodge, with this educational landscape. So to fully serve students, whether you're an independent educational consultant, a school based counselor or a counselor at a community based organization, it is really important that you are doing the work to engage in racial equity and anti racist training so that you can begin to understand the historical context and the current social political landscape that your minority students are interfacing with on a daily basis. It's not enough to just not be racist. We need to be anti racist. And so by doing this work, you can begin to see how you may unintentionally be complicit in some of these harms, but more importantly, how you can start to become a change agent for good. And that's kind of the difference between non racist and anti racist, you know. So a lot of people like, Well, I'm not a racist, great, but are you doing anything to be a change agent for good? Are you looking at your own self? Are you making changes? If not, then you're just not racist, but you're not anti racist. And there's a lot of reasons why this is so important. You know, in the Journal of ethnic and cultural diversity and social work, there's a really great article white privilege and multicultural counseling competence, the influence of field of study, sex and racial ethnic exposure. And it actually states that when white counselors interact with minority students in their daily activities, but they don't have a knowledge of whiteness. When White counselors don't understand their own white identity, it actually influences their interactions with these students. Counseling literature suggests that mindfulness regarding white privilege and racism are important for white counselors to develop a. Positive connection with racially and ethnically diverse clients. So we talked about that fit that relationship between your students and yourself, if you don't have a good sense of yourself and your whiteness, if you just think that you can just be color blind, and that's fine, but you're not really engaging in what it means to be white, then it actually will impact your relationship and your interactions with your students. So a crucial part you know of that success is really understanding white privilege and the systems of inequality present. Because students can tell when you haven't done the work, it's, it's, it's, it's something that they can tell, and so they can also tell when you are engaged and when you are mindful about it, there's research by Christine Muller and at Harvard University that states that there's actually a 3.8 increase in the likelihood of a low income minority student graduating from high school when paired with a counselor of the same race. Now I'm not saying that this means don't, you know, don't ever work with someone of a different race. That's not what I'm saying, but I think this just points to both the need to have more black and brown counselors, as well as the need to educate White counselors on how to work more conscientiously when interacting with this population, so that that number is not almost 4% so that we're closing the gap, so that white counselors can be just as effective as their black and brown counterparts. And to do that, counselors really need to be aware of and have an understanding of work such as that in we want black students just not you how white admissions counselors screen black prospective students from Ted Thornhill. He is an assistant professor of sociology at Florida Gulf Coast University, and that work shows how racism operates on a college and university admissions level, as well as the current research on gender and ethnic bias and letters of recommendation that directly affects the college application process of minority students. Now I know that you have a match letters program Eden, which is fantastic. I really hope that a lot of people volunteer for it, and it's great, you know, because a lot of counselors are looking to do pro bono work with minority students as a way to give back. However, I want all counselors to just kind of do some self examination to make sure that there's no white saviorism or ego stroking kind of behind that, because that is where it gets a little tricky. The other thing is, when you're doing this pro bono work. And I know I mentioned it earlier, don't conflate minority students with pro bono and poor students in your head, because the repeated fusing of low income and minority perpetuates the stereotypes that most minority students are poor and disadvantaged, and it sets up this dichotomy that most students are either rich in white or poor and black, and which is a dangerous mental schema, you know, because when you when you set it up like that way, then you don't realize that systemic racism doesn't just affect students who are poor. Then you look at Wealthy black students, and you aren't seeing how they too are victims of systemic racism. And you're not seeing how boarding school and prep school black students are victims of systemic racism, and black students who get into Princeton and Harvard and even the Michelle Obamas of the world are still victims of systemic racism. You know, if you have a legacy status, if you're a CEO of a company, systemic racism doesn't just end when you've achieved a certain wealth level. And I think that's a concept that some counselors and some people in general just aren't really as familiar with. So I know I just gave you kind of a lot, but I did. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. I did want to give counselors some resources, though, because I you might be like, Okay, I've got a lot to learn. Where do I go? So there are a lot of resources for counselors and educators to learn more about systemic racism. A great resource is the Institute for anti racist education. It's a 501 c3, organization that's dedicated to helping schools create anti racist pedagogy. So this organization that is spearheaded by Ashley Lipscomb, who holds a Master's in teaching from Hampton University and a master's in divinity from Harvard Divinity School, offers weekly newsletters as well as counselor and educator workshops, online courses and monthly town hall meetings, they have an introduction a language, 101 course that kind of helps educators gain the language needed to engage in confronting racism and education and get that deeper understanding. So if you're like, I don't even have the words to engage with this, that language, 101 course is good for you. The American School Counselor Association also has a wealth of race and equity resources that's continually being updated. They've got PDFs, they've got free webinars. They actually have a certificate program. So those are all great things to start getting illuminated on this issue. The University of North Carolina, Charlotte has a graduate certificate in anti racism and urban education that looks phenomenal. They provide foundational courses on what racism is in this country, and they've got these four courses that are history and psychology of race, racial identity development, race and education and schooling and anti racist. In education, some other places for a little less than a full graduate program would be the center for racial justice and education. They also offer trainings, consultations and in depth partnerships to educators, schools and educational organizations. The Columbia Teachers College is offering the recordings from its reimagining education, teaching, learning and leading for racially just society. Summer Institute, New York University's Office of Global Inclusion, Diversity and strategic innovation has also curated anti racism education programs and resources. And lastly, Jane Elliott, who is an internationally known teacher, lecture diversity trainer and recipient of the National Mental Health Association Award for Excellence in Education, has several learning materials, including a checklist for combating racism.


Ethan Sawyer  45:50  
I'm so grateful Sydney for your time, for your energy, for your wisdom. How do folks get in touch with you? How do folks find out more about what you do?


Sydney Montgomery  45:58  
Yeah, absolutely. So if people want to get in contact with me, they can visit my website at S, Montgomery consulting.com or they can follow me on Instagram at at S, Montgomery consulting, I give free college advice on my YouTube channel and my blog. Dismantling systemic racism and education is so important to me. This is actually one of the reasons why I offer services to review students courses and lists to make sure that students are being pushed to their full academic potential. Both of these services have a Pay What You Can option for low income and minority students. I also am so excited I have a barrier breakers College edition platform, and what it is is it offers quality college Consulting at an affordable monthly price to first generation minority college students and their parents, because there's parent calls. So it's a platform that allows students to have their questions answered weekly in recorded videos. I share tips on the application process, special considerations for advocating for themselves as a first generation applicant, and strategies for navigating the application process as an underrepresented minority. So they get these four, kind of four hours of videos basically a month. They get a dedicated community where they can post and ask questions. There'll be parent calls every two months so that I can help educate them. But my goal is that nobody feels like they have to go through the application process alone. So also, students interested in applying to law school later down the line, can graduate. So there's a barrier breakers College edition, and then you can graduate to the barrier breakers Law School Edition, because I also do law school consulting, and it provides a really nice networking, mentorship opportunity for those two groups to connect and become colleagues for life.


Ethan Sawyer  47:36  
Beautiful, Sydney. Thank you so much. Thank you,


Sydney Montgomery  47:40  
Ethan, I really care about this. I'm so excited about all the students that are going to just really be able to soar with their futures.


Ethan Sawyer  47:49  
Thanks for listening, friends. You'll find links to all the things Sydney and I discussed on the show notes page that's at college essay guy.com/podcast now, one of the things that Sydney and I talked about as we were preparing to record this podcast, was how sometimes students of color are writing about challenges, sometimes extreme challenges, and the complexities that come with not only writing about trauma, but helping a student write about trauma if you are a parent or a counselor. So if you're interested in learning more about this and more resources, check out the virtual workshop offered by Ashley Lipscomb of the Institute for anti racist education called shifting narratives toward healing, disrupting trauma exploitation in the admissions essay writing process. So this is a two hour course for counselors. It's Pay What You Can in which you'll get a deeper understanding of trauma and the ways that it sometimes is exploited in the admissions process, and you'll learn how to guide students through a restorative writing process that transitions from, as Ashley puts it, a deficit lens, towards one that's healing and empowering. To find out more about that, go to anti racist Ed, as in education, dot O R G slash shift. Again, that's anti racist ed.org/shift. Or you can find the link in the show notes page, stay healthy and stay strong. You.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai