614: 13 Mistakes High School Students Make When Creating Their College List

Harlan (00:00)
you


Ethan (00:01)
you


Hey friends, what's up? Welcome back to the podcast. So today we're kicking off a two-part mini-series on building your college list because hey, tis the season. Today I'm joined by my friend, New York Times bestselling author Harlan Cohen, who walks us through his 13, that's right, count them, 13 common mistakes that students make when they're creating their college list. We cover, among other things, the importance of shifting from what they, this ambiguous they want, to what you want.


the problem with rankings, which we've covered on the podcast before, but hey, here's a fresh take, the importance of doing what Harlan calls future math and why treating college as a one-year experiment can actually lower the stakes in a really nice way. If you've never met Harlan, he is the New York Times bestselling author of The Naked Roommate and 107 Other Issues You Might Run Into in College. That's the full title. And he's written six other titles. In fact, he's got over a million copies in print.


His social media accounts have over a million and a half followers, check him out on TikTok, and he hosts a popular podcast. He's the founder of Best First Year, a college success coaching program for students and parents. And he lives in Chicago, Illinois with his wife and three children. I hope you enjoy our conversation.


Hey Harlan, welcome to the podcast.


Harlan (01:32)
Ethan, I love hearing your voice and I feel pretty good and it's always a pleasure to talk to you because you are someone who, I was reflecting on this, that we have the same publisher for source books for your wonderful books. And I think it was like right before your first book came out, you were in the booth at NACAC and now, man, you're like, you know, helping, I don't know, hundreds of thousands, millions of people.


And it's incredible to see how many people you're able to serve.


Ethan (02:07)
Yeah, thanks. I really appreciate that. feel really seen by you whenever we talk and feel really like a really strong mutuality in terms of our orientation with students and with parents. And so I'm glad to see you. We're recording this late summer and releasing this early fall. And for a lot of students, it's tis the season for college-less development. And in my world, sometimes students kind of put the


the essay before the horse, meaning they'll start writing college essays before they even really have their college list developed. And I'm such a big thing, I harp on this, I'm like, you've gotta have a list of schools that you like, that you can get into. And it's such a great way to relieve stress, like putting intentionality into this. So when we were setting up for this, I mean, this is something that you've put a lot of thought into over the years. And we've mostly talked over the years. In fact, the last episode we did,


a couple of years ago was on once you get to college, which we might revisit again at some point, but talk about getting that list right. I'd love to just hear some of your thoughts. We've actually got a bunch of thoughts, a big list here, but I'd love to, maybe you could just orient us with why this is even important.


Harlan (03:10)
Let's.


Yeah, I would love to do that. you know, so much of my life, and I've been, for people who aren't familiar with me, I wrote a book called The Naked Roommate and 107 other issues you might run into in college and have a college success coaching community called Best First Year. And I do so much work with students and families, especially when it comes to the transition piece, like you just said. And over the years, what's happened is I really deconstructed, and I think this is part of my ADHD. And one of the things, one of my tendencies,


of my neurodivergent way of learning is I like to start at the end. I don't like to start at the beginning. I find it very boring and frustrating. So I like to start with the big problem. And that's where I've lived for so many years is once students get to college, they're panicked a lot of times, expectations and reality don't align. Parents are totally blindsided by the reality of the social, emotional, physical.


financial and academic transition. And every year it's the same thing, every year. I mean, I know what's going to happen. It's just a matter of who it's going to happen to. And statistically, the numbers keep increasing in terms of the type of discomfort, the amount of discomfort. So why just focus on dealing with the problem? Let's get to the source. So that's really been over the years of


How do we get here? And why are there so many problems? And how can we start? And this is the other thing, Ethan, I don't know if you know this, I work with middle school families. I go deep because I also have this book, or Learn, which is about turning every rejection into your ultimate success. But that book is basically the blueprint of what I share when it comes to coaching students and families through transition, through changes. How can you be empowered?


and know that you, if it's a student listening, you're gonna be okay no matter what. And for a parent, your kid's gonna be okay no matter what. Because especially what year this is, what's happening in terms of technology, AI, in terms of jobs, careers, things are upside down. And they're only going to be changing more rapidly. And the ability for a student to know, and this is number one, I'm getting number one, I know I took a long time to get there.


But number one is in terms of what is the biggest mistake that students make and pen parents are one of them and it's they focus on being wanted. And this is such a dangerous way of living life because the way college is designed is you have to do all these things basically be perfect if you want to get into one of the top schools or the most highly selective schools. I think there are so many top schools.


and so many different paths, then when we focus on being wanted, we really neglect to spend a lot of time focusing on what do I want. And I know this is where you live, right? Getting students to quiet the noise, the noise from family, friends, parents, and to really take a second and just ask yourself the question, hey, what do you want?


Do agree with that?


Ethan (06:53)
Absolutely. It's so it's why when students are beginning this, for example, the self exploration process, when they're thinking about what they want to write about in their application and personal statement, some students will rush to the prompts. Well, what are they asking for? Well, what do they want? And I say, ⁓ don't actually think that's the best way to find your story or your stories and to figure out who you're.


I like to say who yourselves are, not yourself, but who yourselves are. And I think that there are just other more interesting ways of getting into the core of who you are, the essence of who you are. So that's for another episode, but I'm so with this, both practically speaking, but also like on the philosophical level, yeah.


Harlan (07:41)
It's a skill that we don't spend a lot of time nurturing because most of the demands made on students are from the state, are from the school, are from teachers, are from schools. What are the requirements? What is it I need to do in order to give myself the best chance of getting in? And honestly, I'm like, F that. Like that is like the opposite way of living life because you are gonna be so focused on being wanted and yeah, maybe you'll get to that place but when that job is no longer there and you need to


be your own advocate and you need to figure out how to get to that next place. If you haven't really developed your want muscle, if you don't know how to answer that question and create the dynamics in your life in order to continue from place to place, you're really gonna be at a deficit. And there are so many students who, yeah, they get into those highly selective schools and then maybe they're recruited. And then they open their eyes in their mid-20s or 30s and they look around and they say, how did I get here? What do I really want?


because the game is to get to that next place. But the game I like to play is how can you be great at knowing what you want and creating the dynamics in your life to be able to explore those things and be curious.


Ethan (08:55)
I wonder if you've got a practical technique or suggestion for students who are like, I don't know how to know what I want. I don't know how to develop that muscle. What would you suggest for students or even parents who are listening and trying to figure out how do I tune into that?


Harlan (09:10)
Yeah, so that really taps into the Win or Learn framework. So my book Win or Learn, how do I not know the subtitle? It's Win or Learn, the Naked Truth about turning every rejection into your ultimate success. That book at the core is a concept called the Law of Rejection, and I refer to it as the Universal Rejection Truth, and I now refer to it as the Law of Rejection. And it's this undeniable truth of the universe that says not everyone and everything will always respond to you the way you always want.


You can be the best, the brightest, the most deserving, the most attractive. You can do everything right, but you will not always get the outcome you desire. And embracing this law of rejection is a game changer because instead of working so hard to get what you want and being so worried and afraid of not getting the results you want, you can really focus on being you and embracing whatever happens next. we're so focused when it comes to what do I want,


Usually it's what it's going to impress other people, what's going to be the road that's going to be the easiest for me. How can I minimize rejection and increase results? And when you are great at rejection and when you're not afraid of rejection and when you can actually think about the things you really want and the things that really interest and excite you, that is when you ultimately can get to that place, that place of truth. Because it's not about anyone other than me.


This is when you can unleash wild curiosity. And wild curiosity is the antidote to fear of judgment. Because when you are wildly curious, you are able to talk to people, explore in ways where you genuinely want answers more than you're afraid of judgment. And freeing yourself and understanding this law of rejection,


is a core, it's like the flux capacitor. Because without knowledge of that truth, and there are so many people who are great at being successful, but are terrible at rejection. And you get a lot of high achieving students who know how to get through the system, but they're not great at getting through life because they can't control all these other elements. And this is why a lot of students spiral when they get to college. Dude, this is like, when I'm writing, I'm always checking. when I'm, the thing is, I'm so imperfect, Ethan.


And this has been the most freeing part of my life of like where I am. I am so imperfect and I get things wrong all the time. And I will continue to get things wrong all the time, but I will never stop being wildly curious.


Ethan (11:47)
Yeah, I love this about you. see this. I mean, I love the way you're transparent about it too. Just the way that you put it out there. And I think it allows, when I'm with you and when I see the content that you put out, it gives me a sense of freedom with them. Yeah, I love that. Well, I'd love to hear what are some other mistakes people, students make.


Harlan (12:12)
love the connection. know we'll get a list of like 12 other things, but the beauty of it is this whole college exploration, instead of focusing on rankings, and number two is to start with rankings. That's second mistake. So the second mistake, number two, is to start with rankings. And it's really so connected to number one because when you're focused on being wanted, everyone else has all the power.


And when you focus on rankings, which are not even accurate in terms of what so many people want and what they expect and what is important to them and their individual experience, what they do is they place these expectations on the school to do something for them. And I am such a, I think that is such a scary way to live life. So if I go to a high ranked school,


then I'm going have a better chance of having this positive outcome. But the reality is, we know that's not true when it comes to the data. The Gallup Purdue Index, the study of over 30,000 graduates showed six different factors that contribute to long-term success. And I interviewed John Prior on my podcast, who was one of the lead researchers on this. And it's not where you go to school.


Like Jenny Wallace in Never Enough, she uses that research as well. It is not true. So this illusion that if you go to a school that's high ranked, you're gonna have a better life. Here's the real hack. You go to a school where you can find the best fit socially, emotionally, physically, financially, and academically, and we'll get to that. And if that school is more affordable, if that school...


provides an opportunity for you to have incredible experiences, and it's not necessarily as high ranked, but they have an honors program or a way to nurture you in a cohort where you can be supported. It's those students who become so attractive to those graduate programs, to those employers. Like, here's the other thing, Ethan. I love community college students. When I see someone who goes to community college,


and then transfers to a school, gets a degree, and is living their life where they're going to grad school or getting a job, they are so impressive. Because it says, you wanted something and you worked so hard to get it that you could accomplish anything. And I have a friend who's a very successful entrepreneur. And he's saying, I don't like hiring from these top schools because


Ethan (14:50)
Yeah.


Harlan (15:02)
I don't know how comfortable these students are being uncomfortable. I don't know how they respond to rejection and adversity. It's students who are able to be exceptional in places where there's a wide variety of students who distinguish themselves, who really stand out in today's culture and career, when it comes to careers. And one more thing I'm just gonna add to that, and this goes along with,


this idea of being perfect and having to get certain grades so you can get access to certain schools. If a student is always perfect and always gets it right, they don't have a lot of reason to get help and talk to people who can support them and invest in them. So getting things right can really work against you. If you're someone who doesn't know how to advocate, be wildly curious, connect, tell students, listen, if you get an A in a class and your teacher doesn't know you, your professor doesn't know you,


In my world, you've failed because it's not about the grade. And this is where the emphasis is on grades and rankings. And it's not an effective way. It can help to give you an idea of how people respect that school. But the other thing is these schools are changing so rapidly. The faculty are changing so rapidly that you don't really know. And you might not even have access to those


people and resources till maybe your third year. Who even knows?


Ethan (16:34)
Let's talk mindset, like when students are sort of trying to orient around, know, sort of like their fuel, what's number three? What would you suggest?


Harlan (16:45)
So number three is don't make the mistake of letting scarcity and fear drive your decision making. You are gonna be okay no matter where you go. And there are lots of students who have this mindset that I need to go to my dream school to live my dream life. And that's not true. If you need to go to your dream school to live your dream life, then you don't know how to live your dream. Because you're 51 % of this dream making equation.


And when you rely too heavily on other people and other places to be the maker of your dream, you are very vulnerable to spend too much time focusing on other people doing things for you as opposed to you taking ownership and figuring out how to create a path to get where you want to go. Scarcity and fear, that's the game. That's what these schools do. It's scarcity and fear. I saw, was it last year, Duke had like a 3.9 or something acceptance rate.


And something very small. And I was at an independent school talking to highly motivated families. And I said, you know, this is Duke, right? So, know, fewer than 4 % of students are admitted. So here's the solution. Don't go to Duke. Right. I was like, don't go to Duke. Here's what you do. You work as hard as you can to have the best.


chance of going to places that align with the things that are most interesting to you and we're going to get to that and that's number five. We'll get to that. And the thing is, if you don't get in, that's fine because there's other places. Because you're the one who's in charge. You're going to be okay.


Ethan (18:25)
Yeah.


Yeah, and I don't necessarily blame schools for this. I think that there's, what happens is, know, colleges and universities will release, especially selective ones will release their acceptance rates. And then the media captures the story and what the story becomes, or what the impression becomes from the general public is that it's harder to get into college than ever, which is just not true. You know, the average acceptance rate.


in the U S at college. I'm going to pause for a second and I want to on folks listening to like, see if you can fix in your mind, a guess of what the average acceptance rate at colleges. And you might be surprised to know that it's above 65%. We're talking nationally, but there's this focus on, you know, 20 schools or 50 schools. And it can lead to this exactly what you're talking about. This scarcity and fear mindset. I think it, you know, it shows desirability, which is, you know, I think colleges are incentivized to do in terms of.


Harlan (19:22)
their businesses.


Ethan (19:23)
staying in business, yeah. And what I'll say is I think we're definitely on the same page in terms of what practically students can do about it, which is like, sometimes I'll say focus on what you can control. And my friend Angel has recently, a couple weeks ago, we were talking about this and he's like, I think it's like focus on what you can influence. And the thing that you can influence or if you like control is your college list, is which schools you're applying to. And it's something that if you're listening to this, almost any time of the year,


that's a place where you can turn your attention to is broadening the list of schools that you're applying to.


Harlan (19:56)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, because you need to be okay no matter what. So once you can get rid of this idea of like, feisty and scared, and it's really about me and what's important to me, there's one more thing to do really set yourself up. number four, one of the mistakes that students and families will make is they make this about the rest of their life, or they make this about four years. And what I like to do is I like to make this about one year. And this is a very different way of thinking about this.


because it's where am I gonna graduate? I'm gonna have this experience and be part of this ritual and it's gonna be my home. And I'm like, no, this is a one year experiment. It is a one year experiment and we call it an experiment because an experiment removes a lot of the expectations. And this experiment is to put yourself in a place where you can align yourself with people doing things that you wanna do that you're very curious about and it's seeing how that feels.


with an understanding of what realistic expectations are, but this is an experiment and you don't have to stay here forever. And I'll tell you, the reason that I frame it this way, Ethan, is because I went to the University of Wisconsin in Madison for a year, and then I transferred to Indiana University. And at the University of Wisconsin, I went there and my mindset in the beginning of school was, everyone has to like me. The people I meet have to like me. This has to go well, this has to go a certain way.


Because if it didn't, then I was doomed. There was so much pressure. And when I decided to transfer, because I decided to transfer in about, it was about like January or February, my life changed at Wisconsin. Things actually got great. Because all of a sudden, no one was required to like me or do anything for me because I was out of here. I was gone. And it was this weird thing of I no longer required


people to respond a certain way because I knew I was going to be okay no matter what. And that's when I started to focus more on what I wanted. That's when I pledged a fraternity then I de-pledged because I was like, I don't really like this. This doesn't feel good to me. Like I got rejected by all the fraternities. Now I was like, ⁓ this doesn't feel right. And I was totally empowered. And, you know, of course I want students to stay at the school as long as it's the right place for them to stay.


But students transfer all the time and parents get so caught up that if you get into this place that's so hard to get into, how could you give that up? And in my world, it's like, listen, this is about a year. It's a year experiment. And if it goes well, it will become two, three, four years. But it's that mindset that what are you gonna do to make it okay? So now we've set the tone. We've released ourselves of.


so much of this anxiety. And I also, I do another program called Happy Healthy Almost Stress-Free College Planning for Students and Parents. And I do this as an in-person event. I also have this as a on-demand event that people can get through best first year because it really breaks down how do you look at college planning and where do you start? And this is number five, a mistake students make as they don't have a plan.


parents don't have a plan. How do you make a plan? What is a plan? I'm going to give you a rapid fire crash course in how to put together this plan. You ready? It'll be super fast. So number one, you got to decide what you want. And what you want could be anything. You just have to want something. And how do you even go about thinking, what do I want? There are five areas of change that you're going to have to navigate when you get to college.


Ethan (23:28)
Let's do it.


Harlan (23:47)
social, emotional, physical, financial, and academic. The acronym is CEPFA, and it is a terrible acronym, because we need more terrible acronyms. But CEPFA, hopefully you'll leave the pop in here for the podcast. And those are the five areas of change. So when you're looking at college and you're thinking, hmm, what do I want? Which of those five areas is most important to you? And for a parent who's listening, what's the most important for your kid?


And if you pick your top three student and if a parent picks their top three, you're gonna have one that overlaps, for sure. But it's interesting to see for a parent, is it financial and academic? For a student, is it social and emotional? Because if for the student, it's social and emotional and for a parent, if it's academic and financial, well, you're gonna be in two different worlds. And how are you possibly gonna tour and have conversations when you have totally different expectations?


If you're a student working with a parent. But we don't even know where to start. And the thing is, this is why when I talk to middle school and high school parents, for parents, the transition from middle school to high school, social, emotional, physical, financial, academic, question is what do you want? So for the students, I give you permission to want something. But you gotta be able to give yourself permission. I wanna be outdoors. I love hiking. I love sports. I love gymnastics. My oldest son loves gymnastics. That is the number one thing for him.


I don't care. He's going to a school that not as many people go to and he's having a great experience part of the honors program He's doing gymnastics. He's got friends. He's meeting exceptional people incredible professors He's got his own business. This kid is gonna be able to do whatever he wants. I I live it I don't care what school my kids go to as long as they can go to a place


that aligns with the things that are most important to them and surround themselves with people who share similar values and are as driven, and they're gonna be great. So social, emotional, physical, financial, academic. If financial is important to you, Then don't fall in love with the most expensive school, right? Don't fall in love with lots of schools, but it's like, this school is so great. Well, what makes this school so great? Well, when you get that feeling,


It falls under one of those categories, social, emotional, physical, financial, academic. So what is that thing? So when you're looking at college, you like to start with that. What is its most important? If you want to make friends and you're nervous, you have social anxiety, great. If you have learning differences and getting support is important to you, great. It can be different for everyone. This is why throw away the rankings, throw away the names of the schools. Start with social, emotional, physical, financial, academic. And then what you do is you think people place as patients.


who are the people who are living these experiences on these campuses? Where are the places I can do the things I need to do in order to have the experience I want? And then patience. How long will it take for me to get the outcome I want? To have expectations and reality align. People, places, patience. Okay? So students don't have a plan and the plan is SEPHAS, social, emotional, physical, financial, academic. All right? So now we've got six through 13.


All right, when you go through your sep-fa and then people places patients, you're going to identify opportunities on campuses that look really interesting to you. And number six is, don't expect instant access to clubs and activities and research opportunities. Because so many of these schools that students are so eager to get into, you don't get access to the opportunities.


at a school like IU, Kelly School of Business, these clubs and activities, these organizations, they're so competitive. At U of I, I did a video where I was talking to someone at University of Illinois, and the student was so cute. She was great. She had her mom on the phone, and she talked about how freshman years she didn't get into this particular professional fraternity. And the thing is, there are so many, I used to go to Villanova and speak, and they said, and the reason they brought me in is because the students struggled so much with rejection.


because so many these students were leaders and they didn't get access to a lot of the activities they want. And that's just not Villanova. There's an article, I forget where it was, it was about the IVs and how you have to, in order to get into these clubs and activities, you have to interview, you have to apply. I did a walk and talk, I did this really cool thing where I just hold my camera and I walk around a campus and I was at the University of Virginia and I was talking to students on the lawn and I asked them what their toughest semester was, toughest month was.


And they said, you know, September, October, and they talked about not getting into these professional clubs and organizations. Another one talked about being so lonely her first year and how she was able to work through that. The counter to this is what are the clubs, activities and organizations you do in high school that you want to experience in college? And do you have access? At the University of Miami, I was talking to some students and this one dude, he transferred and he was doing debate. I'm like, it must be hard to get into debate. And he's like, no, anyone can join. I'm like, are you kidding me?


The University of Miami, anyone could show up to debate. you gotta know what you can actually have access to. And this is another runner I say, make sure you have at least one or two places on campus where you are welcome and included simply because you show up. Where you don't have to audition or try out. And that's key because at a lot of these schools, especially if social is really important to you, if social is important to you and you don't get in and you don't have access, that's gonna be a really difficult year.


And this is why going to some of these other schools where there is more access, there are more opportunities. I'll throw one more thing at you, Ethan. I'm throwing a lot of things at you. Because of so many cuts at so many schools, there are more opportunities for students who want to take on leadership roles because some of those responsibilities that were staffed are being handed over to students. This is like a great hack. So you get to be friends with the person in the department where they just made cuts and you want to be a leader.


you're gonna be doing graduate work because they're gonna want you to help and if you're someone who could do something and show up on time, you're gold. Okay.


Ethan (30:08)
Can I jump in and say one quick thing? It reminds me of, well, with the notion of like, I think there are times when we, when I, say I get fixed on a certain outcome or a way that I think it's going to go. And there's this hack that I do and it comes from my acting teacher who would advise us before we go into an audition. This was in graduate school. He said, expect something to go wrong. He said, expect something to go wrong. That way when you're in the audition,


Harlan (30:09)
Yeah. Yeah.


Ethan (30:36)
and this certainly applies when you're applying for something, expect it to not go the way you think. So then when it happens, you go, yeah, I knew this was gonna happen. And I had this, yesterday I was driving and I was like wanting to get to where I was going quickly. I just went, you know what, if I just shift my expectations and expect it's not gonna go the way I want it to go, boom. And it's this easy thing. And suddenly there's like this lightness that comes over me.


And I want to just like plus one, the second thing you're saying, which is like seeing that as an opportunity to create something, to become entrepreneurial, to sort of, you know, test your, you know, your might, your, your, your, call it like your engine, your ability to catalyze things is what a beautiful reframe, what a beautiful opportunity potentially. And also, yes, I know it's disappointing in those moments where you like didn't get into the thing or you didn't.


Yeah, and you start to make up stuff about it and go, well, what does that mean about me? Or did I do something wrong? I just love this reframe of what opportunities are available here.


Harlan (31:41)
Yeah, it goes hand in hand. I mean, I could put a list of like 50 things together, but it's, know, students don't plan on being lonely. And most students experience loneliness. And there's two types of ways of being on your own. And one is when you're on your own and you wanna be around other people, when you're alone and you wanna be around other people and you have this longing for something you can't have, that's loneliness.


But when you're on your own and it's just you and you are equipped and have a plan on how you're going to be okay because you have things that you're going to do that rely on you, then you aren't necessarily lonely. You're able to do things on your own. And if you do those things in places where you're around other people, there's a pretty good chance you're actually going to meet people. And that's, you know, it's a huge thing that, you know, students don't plan for and that goes hand in hand. And the things you want,


are gonna be aligned with those things that oftentimes you create, that are things that are in your pocket, that are in your bucket, that you always have, spirituality, doing something physical. And when I talk about places, I talk about places where you sweat, play, pray, live, learn, lead, love, and work. Sweat, play, pray, live, learn, lead, love, and work. So if you think about things that you can do where you can sweat, play, pray, live, learn, lead, love, and work that are solely dependent on you,


so that while you transition to this new place and meet new people, you could be okay, then you're gonna be equipped to look through, look at this whole process through that different lens. And you just mentioned something about your drive and about the acting teacher talking about planning for discomfort, planning for something going wrong. The way that you're able to continue to drive and know that this is gonna be a positive outcome is because you know you're gonna be okay no matter what.


No matter what happens, you're going to be okay because you're going to make it okay. Even if it turns out to be uncomfortable or painful or embarrassing, you're going to be okay. And parents and students need to know they're going to be okay. Because when you know you're going to be okay, you get to really focus on you and be much more mindful and centered and empowered as you go through this process. Okay.


The other ones, I'll go real fast just because I want to respect everyone's time. I have time, but let's just get into the finances. Number seven is they don't look for merit aid and financial aid. They don't really know how to or understand this. And a lot of families think, oh, this school is so expensive. I just saw that Princeton said that they're going to waive tuition for families that make less than $250,000 now, which is amazing.


If you get into Princeton and make under 250,000, you still have to pay room and board and those other expenses, which are expenses, but they recognize that families who are making a certain amount can't always save all that money in order to be able to pay, and they want to set students up for success. So I tell students, listen, if you don't have a lot of money and your family doesn't have a lot of money, apply to those schools. Apply to those schools and see what happens. Don't depend on them.


to do anything other than look over your application. But understand, you might get a lot of money. Jeff Levy, I really like Jeff Levy's work. He is wonderful at sharing different schools that provide a lot of merit aid.


Ethan (35:15)
He's been on the podcast before we'll link to that in the show notes. Yeah.


Harlan (35:19)
Yeah, he's great. And I also had a conversation with him as well. And I love talking him and it's data. then Jeff Salingo talks about this and then Ron Lieber talks about this as well. So like three different resources where you can learn about merit aid, because some schools are much more generous than others. And if you can find a school that is going to be


significantly less money where you can find places where you can sweat, play, pray, live, learn, lead, love, and work, and be around motivated exceptional people, and you can take on responsibilities. What you're going to learn and how quickly you will learn is amazing. I have a post. It was on my social media from a student who is a top student at a school I visited. This student was offered


an opportunity to go to Brown, to go to a couple other IVs, was also offered a full ride to Arizona State University to their honors program. And this student, who was from Arizona, decided to go to Arizona State University and get a full ride because they thought that that was the best opportunity for them.


People criticize them. They don't understand her decision or their decision. Oops, that hurt. Anyway, it doesn't matter. It's such a powerful decision. And this student's gonna go wherever they wanna go, wherever they wanna go, because they saw what they wanted and they recognized, you know what? I have more opportunity here and I can be supported. And I could leave having zero debt and paying zero money. It's wild.


College is one of the only transactions in life where we tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars with no guarantee on what the outcome will be. And one of the tips in here I have is, it's actually number 13. We'll go back to assuming everyone graduates. As so many students just assume everyone graduates, but most students don't graduate in four years.


A lot of them don't graduate in six years. Sometimes the graduation rate in six years could be 60%. When schools are sharing their graduation rates, their published rates, graduation rates, they're not sharing four years most of the time. They're sharing six years. And most people don't have two more years of school in their budget, which is something that most people don't understand. also, there's so many things. The other part is the career piece. ⁓ How many students are actually getting jobs?


and how helpful are the schools in assisting students with those jobs. Okay. So we're gonna go back to eight. Okay, we just did seven, don't look for merit aid, financial aid. Eight, this is the 13 mistakes high school students make when putting together a college list is they don't do future math. And future math is how much is this gonna cost in two years, in four years? Future math also consists of if I have to finance my education,


with loans, how much is that going to cost me each month when I graduate? And I have another program called Seven Money Must Do's. And I go through future math. And the way you do future math is you just kind of say, you know, whatever career you want to be. Let's say you want to be a therapist, right? You want to be a psychologist. You can look and see what has someone paid. What's the starting salary for that? So let's say maybe it's $50,000, $60,000.


Then you go to a calculator, cost of living calculator, and I have links to all of these, and you see what does that equal after taxes. So maybe it's $50,000, right? So you take that, and then you divide 50,000 into 12 months, 12, right? And then, and if you're following me, use the 50, 30, 20 rule.


The 50-30-20 is 50 % of your income for needs, 30 % for wants, and 20 % for savings. It's kind of a general idea. So when you break down that salary of what you're getting each month and you say 20 % of that is for savings and debt repayment, then that gives you an idea of what you can handle in terms of loan repayment.


I don't see people talking about this. I have a calculator. I work on a calculator as well. I also have a budget calculator that I'm releasing through Best First Year because just like keeping track of your budget every year, but people don't know how to do future math. So they graduate and all of a sudden they have $500 or $1,000 a month that they're supposed to pay. But when it comes to their cost of living and expenses and the assumption they even get a job, you know, they're really not set up to be able to


pay that money, to budget that money. So you budget that beforehand. And if you're a family that's helping, then you budget that beforehand. There's also, I'll just drop this, because I always want to help people. If you have a, because there's no subsidized loans anymore as of 2016, or 2020, 2016. As of 2026, in July 2026, all subsidized loans are going to go goodbye because of the new bill. And one thing is if you do take a loan, pay the interest, just pay the interest every month.


so that that interest doesn't accrue. Because if you could just pay the interest, you'll at least keep that loan a little more manageable so at the end of your education, you won't be paying interest on top of the interest. Okay. Did all that make sense, Ethan? Yeah, okay. So, we could talk for three hours here. So eight is they don't do future math. Nine is they don't talk to current students on campus.


Ethan (41:18)
Totally. Totally.


Harlan (41:32)
I'm so fortunate that my kids, you know, they naturally talk to other students. There are so many ways to talk with students on these campuses. If you're an athlete, talk to the athletes. Ask them what their relationship is with the coach. Ask them how the school treats them. Ask them what type of accommodations they get when they travel. Ask them their balance, their work-life balance. Whatever you're interested in. If you are interested in a club or activity, Model UN,


ask do first-year students get to participate in Model UN. If there's something that falls into your social, emotional, physical, financial, academic, and there are students in those places, then reach out to them. And students are pretty cool. You could just DM them. And I do this whole breakdown through Best First Year where we look at different places on campus, and we go to the social media, and we look and see who likes these posts. How new is this post? Because the first 10 people who like a post are probably involved in that group.


And then all of sudden you learn who these people are. And it's okay to just say, hey, I'm interested in going to this school. saw that you're the president of this organization or the vice president. I have a couple questions. Because those people are just students a year or two in the future. But so many students are like, I'm too afraid to do this. That's weird. It's like, no, it's not. You're just afraid of rejection and being judged. But the law of rejection says if you're wildly curious, it's okay. Just be you. And if you have someone who can coach you and help you to do this, that's helpful.


Talk to the students on campus, they know what's happening. They're better than the rankings because things are changing. Students might not be getting into classes. Some schools will fill classes and then there'll be online virtual options and students don't anticipate this. There's someone, a parent at another school I was talking to because Ethan, the thing that's so cool, like, I've been like, I feel like I'm unleashed. It's like, cause we don't get to talk a lot. And it's like, the thing is because of...


all the social media I've been doing. because, I really engage with people as much as I possibly can. And because of the speaking, if anybody wants to host an event, I'd love to come to your campus, meet your community. I hear these stories. And it's like on the ground, real life stories of a student going to a school, registering late because they have a later orientation, and then discovering that three other classes are virtual. And they're paying a ton of money.


Ethan (43:52)
Yeah.


Harlan (43:53)
Like we don't, those are stories you don't hear, you talk to the students. Talk to the students. Okay. Number nine.


that was number nine. They don't talk to the students. All right, so just to recap. Number one is, these are the 13 mistakes high school seniors make when putting together their college list. Number one, a mistake is a focus on being wanted. Number two, start with rankings. Three, let scarcity and fear guide their decision making. Four, make this about the rest of their life as opposed to this one year exciting experiment. Five, they don't have a plan that's really how you can start to frame this whole college search and planning. Six, they expect instant access to those clubs and activities.


Seven, they don't look for merit in financial aid. think they're not gonna qualify, but apply without being so emotionally tied to the outcome. They don't do future math or know how to do future math. They don't talk to current students on campus. That was number nine. And number 10 is they wanna impress friends and family. It's a big mistake. You're gonna get caught so much in this whole race of like, what is everyone gonna think? And the reality is people get so caught up.


because it gives them a sense of control and a sense of value. But the reality is it doesn't matter. And in two weeks, once everybody starts school or even after graduation, high school graduation, no one's gonna remember. No one's gonna care. It doesn't matter. It's what's best for you. So instead of trying to focus on what other people want for you, when they express a deep desire to share what they want,


Say you're really curious to hear why they think what they think. How did you come to that conclusion? When someone says, I'm surprised that you're going to that school, or I didn't expect that, and you can say, I'm so curious to understand your thinking. As opposed to being like, ⁓ this person, who cares? Because you might be going to school that no one knows about, you might be getting a free ride. There might be tons of reasons. It's no one's business but yours, but don't please, please, please. Where you go? I laugh because.


There's so many students who go to these schools are miserable or they transfer and no one talks about that. No one talks about that. All right. Number 11, they don't visit. If finances are an issue, totally understand then virtual visits, but go. Go and when you go, don't go there and just take the tour. Go there with a very clear map of the places you want to put yourself.


and the people you want to get to meet. So you get to know those specific facilities. Like if you're into music, you go to the music school and you can walk around the music school and you can talk to people. You get a tour. You ask someone in that department to give you some sort of tour or you reach out and have someone you can meet or someone from your high school. Someone through the admissions office can help you to connect with someone. But you plan that visit and try to do it when everyone's in school.


because it really gives you not only a sense of what's happening, but it allows you the opportunity to talk to people who are living those experiences. Yeah, try, go, go, go. So visit. Number 12 is they'll follow friends and significant others to a campus. the social part is so important. And if you need to go to a campus because you're around friends, that's totally okay. But go there with an understanding you also are going to find places where you can do things independent of those people. So you're not just...


Following the herd you want to make sure that you can be supported But you also want to make sure that you can take some of those risks outside your comfort zone and the significant others If your relationship is any good, you're gonna figure out how to be independent people apart so you can grow together, right? Yeah, it's it's it's it's a hard things but a lot of times people get worried about that parents get worried about that and I think there's something to be said if you do make sure you have a plan on how you're step outside your comfort zone and really


do things that are going to help you to explore what you want. And then the last one is assume everyone graduates. And I mentioned that before, but it's important to know everyone graduates, assume everyone graduates and gets a job. And you want to go to that career center, you want to know what those statistics are, you want to know what the placement is, you want to have a handle on how long it takes for students to graduate. And is there some sort of pathway? Because if a school is overcrowded, because especially this year, where there's more students than ever,


the people who are trailing this class of record-breaking class, will there be enough seats available in classes? Will you be able to take the required classes to be able to get that degree in the amount of time you plan on getting it? So great information to help people. And I know this seems like a lot, but this is all very natural. Like this is all about storytelling. And the way that I presented to make it a lot less overwhelming is, tell the story.


of your first year in college and high school. Tell the story of your first month. And I have a template that people fill in. And the template is, let's say it's October 1st, 2026. I had the best first couple weeks. I accomplished my goal and did whatever it is. The hardest part was this. I was able to find answers by leaning on these people.


and I was able to find resources by putting myself in these places. And I'm so, it took me this amount of time to get where I want to go and I'm so grateful for this experience. That's how you do it. So it's like when you're telling a story, what I've done is just break it down and help you to understand the different elements that help you tell your story. But if your story is about being wanted and your story is about other people giving you something and your story is about impressing other people and your story is about


Spending any amount of money so that you can get this thing that you don't even know You don't know what the value is of that thing You're gonna you're gonna be very surprised


Ethan (49:57)
Yeah, I love, I love this point that you're making about future casting. it's like looking forward to look back and imagining yourself a year in the future. There's an exercise that I love related to this that we'll link in the show notes called Murphy Jitsu and Murphy Jitsu. The broad concept is imagining what can go wrong and then creating patches to, you know, to account for those things. So the way this might look is for instance, let's say I have a goal.


So my goal is to develop a consistent workout routine. And you ask yourself, what's the likelihood one to 10 that it's going to happen? And you go, okay, it's a six. And then you ask yourself, okay, well, why six? What went wrong? And you go, well, I noticed that when I woke up, I prioritized other things and I decided to do something else other than work out in the morning. Okay, great. Well then what could you do about that? Okay, well.


I guess I could put my workout clothes out and my workout equipment, you know, put a dumbbell somewhere where I'm going to see it in the morning. Okay. Well, let's say you've done that. How, how likely are you to develop a consistent workout routine? Okay. Maybe I'm at like a seven. Okay. Well, why? What went wrong this time? Well, again, then you sort of repeat it until you basically create this, you know, process where you are raising the likelihood that you're making good plans. And so I think that this connects back to the thing you were saying earlier about creating a plan, this sort of like


taking time to vision and to think forward on what, because we know ourselves, we know what's likely to go wrong. What does that thing look like?


Harlan (51:32)
I love that. As part of Best First Year, and I want to just take a moment to just share what this is, because it's really a passion. It's really the culmination of this life's work. And Best First Year is a college success coaching community for parents and students. parents, they're the ones who are most active, especially when it comes to the planning part of things.


Students tend to be more active when it comes to solving problems. Until there's a problem, there isn't a reason to participate. So I've really designed this to support parents and also to support students, but parents to help them to understand how to approach college planning, how to understand what's normal, how to relieve a lot of stress and anxiety. So best first year is coaching, live coaching every two weeks, and it's for high school families.


It's for college families. People drop in. They start whenever they're ready to start because I'm constantly running through different topics that align to different times of the year. But it's designed for high school students, parents, and for college parents. Coaching every two weeks, a private Facebook group, and there are special events that they get access to. also worksheets. I have this risk-taking.


experiment, there was one point where best first year was distributed by another partner. And I came up with all these workbook exercises because there was this idea that it could be used in the classroom. And there are schools that use it and there are programs that use it, but I included all those worksheets too. So for any parent who is listening to this and thinking, man, this has been helpful. If you want someone in your corner who can be there and you want to be part of a community and for students, if you want to be able to connect it,


to get connected with people and to have someone who can answer your questions, because every two weeks I answer these questions. And I'm also active in the private Facebook group as well. That's the place to go. And if someone wants to be a best first year member for 18 months, there's an option. If they want to be a best first year member for 12 months, each membership comes with access for two emails. And the last part is, if there are special events that families want to participate in, they can get those a la carte.


because I'm going to put those all on the best first year sites so that you can just participate in that one. But members get access to all the different programs that I mentioned, know, the Happy Healthy Almost Structural College of Planning and 17 things you need to do your first semester in college. There's so much, Ethan, it's been wild. And man, I'm so grateful to serve. this changes lives. And if people don't want to do that, they can just...


watch my videos. I've got over 1,500 college tips now. I've got over 1,000 life tips. What I do is condense it and make it easier so that everybody can participate and know the best ways to solve their problems as efficiently as possible. anyway, thank you for letting me share that.


Ethan (54:38)
Yeah, I'm so grateful. I'm grateful for the work that you're doing in the world. I'd be curious as we close here, give us something. What would you like to leave folks with? What would you hope that students and parents keep in mind as they go through this process?


Harlan (54:50)
Man, it is a beautiful, wild adventure. And welcome that adventure, embrace it, and give the world permission to respond however the world's gonna respond with this understanding that you're gonna be okay no matter what. And if you can let your wild curiosity drive you and allow for things to just unfold knowing that you are gonna be okay, and that means having people you surround yourself with who you can lean on, having places where you can be supported and being patient.


then you will get to places you can't even possibly imagine.


Ethan (55:26)
Beautiful. Thanks. We'll leave it there. Thanks.


Thanks friends, as ever, be sure to check out the show notes at collegeessayguy.com slash podcast to find all the links we discussed, including a link to Harlan's Best First Year program. If you use code CEG, you'll get a nice little bonus just because you heard of Best First Year on this podcast. Stay tuned for part two of this conversation on list building with Jay McCann and Stephen Antonoff, who literally wrote the book on college finding. In fact, it's called The College Finder.


and they've got a new edition out and I'm real excited about it. We'll talk all about it, including lots of practical resources and much, much more. Thanks friends and stay curious.