411: Finding Your Why, What a Liberal Arts Education Really Is, and How to Figure out What You Actually Want

Show Notes

On Season 1 of the podcast, Ethan had a great conversation with Maria Furtado, then Executive Director of the Colleges That Change Lives organization (also known as “CTCL”). It’s a lovely chat and to date one of our most downloaded episodes.

On today’s episode Ethan had the pleasure of sitting down with her successor, Ann Marano, and they get into:

• Where to start when it comes to the college search

• How to myth bust yourself (a practical exercise)

• What questions to ask when you’re searching for a college

• Some things Ann and Ann and Ethan wished they had done differently when they went through the process themselves

• Busting some affordability myths

• What it means to keep a student at the center of the college search

If you’ve never met Ann, you should know that she is a proud first-generation college graduate of Mount St. Mary’s University (CA) who earned her M.A. in Education-Psychology from Pepperdine. She’s served on several counselor advisory boards, including the Common Application Board of Directors and the Johns Hopkins University Access Advisory Board. After 20 years in college admissions counseling at several different universities and high schools and 12 years as the college bound advisor at the first all girls’ public school in the state of Texas, Ann Marano moved into the role of Executive Director for the Colleges That Change Lives.

We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Play-by-Play

• 1:57 – What is CTCL and what is Ann’s role as Executive Director? 

• 3:58 – What’s it like to be a student at a liberal arts college?

• 8:09 – What kind of student is right for a liberal arts college? 

• 10:01 – What’s a good place to start in the college search process?

• 14:49 – How to combat myths about colleges 

• 19:04 – What are some questions that are important for students and families to be asking themselves as they go through this process?

  • 25:52 – An exercise for picturing yourself on a college campus 

• 29:45 – What would Ann and Ethan have done differently in college?

• 32:04 – How does a student get a sense of a school if they’re not able to visit the campus?

• 34:15 – College affordability at private schools

• 39:17 – What are some tips for parents about keeping students at the center of the search?

• 43:56 – Another example of what it’s like to be a student at a liberal arts college

• 48:27 – An exercise students can do to begin this process of finding a great college

• 52:55 – Final thoughts / wrap-up

Resources

College List Building: 

• CTCL.org

• CTCL How To Choose A College Brochure

• The Values Exercise

• How to Choose a College: A Step-By-Step Guide 

• How to Research Colleges Without Visiting a Campus

College Affordability:

• Paying for College in Four Steps: The Five College Types

• U.S. Department of Education College Affordability and Transparency Center

• College Cost Transparency Initiative

• The Common Data Set: What It Is and How to Use It in College Admissions 

Show transcript

Ethan Sawyer  0:00  
Ethan, Hi friends, and welcome back to the college sa guy podcast. This is Ethan on Season One. I had a great conversation with Maria Furtado, then Executive Director of the colleges that change lives organization, also known as ctcl. It's a lovely chat, and to date, it's one of our most downloaded episodes on today's episode, however, I had the pleasure of sitting down with her successor, Anne Murano, and we get into, among other things, where to even start when it comes to the college search, how do you myth bust yourself, and yes, there is a practical exercise for that. What questions do you ask when you're searching for a college some things that Anne and I wished we'd done differently when we went through the college process ourselves. We bust some affordability myths, and we break down what it really means to keep a student at the center of the college search. If you've never met Anne before, you should know she is a proud first gen college graduate of Mount St Mary's in California. She earned her MA in education psychology from Pepperdine. She served on several counselor advisory boards, including the common app board of directors and the Johns Hopkins University access advisory board. After 20 years in college admission counseling at several different universities and high schools 12 years as the college bound advisor at the first all girls public school in the state of Texas and moved into the role of executive director for the colleges that change lives. I hope you enjoy our conversation.


Hi Anne, welcome to the podcast.


Ann Marano  1:42  
Thanks for having me. Ethan. I'm so happy to be engaged in conversation with you and share space and time. I always love


Ethan Sawyer  1:47  
seeing you. I know I said that to you before we started recording, but I wanted to say it to you officially on the recording. I You light up my life. Likewise. So I'd love to hear some folks don't know what ctcl Even stands for, will you tell us about ctcl and more particularly, to you, I'm curious, what do you spend most of your time doing and thinking about, what like? What problems do you tend to be working on?


Ann Marano  2:11  
The colleges that change lives is a nonprofit organization inspired by the seminal work of Lauren pope and his series of books, or four editions of a book by the name the colleges that change lives. Current membership is made up of the colleges that Lauren had named across those four books, and they are all small liberal arts colleges with a real commitment to undergraduate teaching the liberal arts high impact educational experiences and residential communities, and collectively, we offer programming throughout the year for students, families and counselors, but more importantly, where I spend, or just as important, where I spend the bulk of my time attacking the big problems or questions of the day they have to do with how do we get students, Families and counselors to think more about centering the student in the college admission search and recognizing that they have choice. Students have the power of choice, that there are more choices than the schools that tend to dominate the narrative that we spend most of our time in, and that they're in the driver's seat. So it's a it's a delightful space to be in. Having spent the bulk of my career in Secondary College Admission Counseling, trying to get the word out, like not just about these 44 schools, although I think they are distinctly different and kind of fabulous, but there are a lot of schools that would be amazing for students, if only students, families and counselors had the time and or the wherewithal to kind of breathe and check them out and think about the process differently. So rather than chasing admissions really, kind of designing your whole search process around you what's best for you,


Ethan Sawyer  3:53  
and I want to get into like search process stuff in a few minutes. But what does the liberal arts actually mean? Can you give us an example of, you know, I don't know, like a typical program, or maybe paint a picture of what it's like to be a student at a liberal arts college. That's


Speaker 1  4:08  
a great question. I know that when I was doing my own college search, and of course, my favorite stories are the ones that involved me, so thanks for indulging me. But I know that when I was starting my college search, my parents were like, Oh, something along the lines of, and I'm a little rusty on this memory over my dead body. Will you go to a little college? And I they also work. There were a couple religious traditions they weren't too fond of either, because they were way too relaxed. And that's a story for another time. They didn't want me to stray too far from how we were raised. Anyway, now that I've over shared, but and I think why my family had that reaction is they didn't really understand the whole concept of the liberal arts, and that the liberal arts is not related to any particular political ideology or philosophy or position on any sort of statement or thought. It really has to do with the depth and breadth of study, right? So the liberal arts college, and I'd like to insert the words. Sciences back into the liberal arts, because technically, the science has never left. If you go back that far in the seven traditions, the sciences are definitely considered and also rhetoric and ways of thinking. But it really has to do less with any sort of political or other kind of particular affiliation, more to do with encouraging students and immersing them, if you will. So it has more to do with immersing students in a tradition of study that exposes them to subjects across disciplines. So regardless of what you're going to focus on, going to have an exposure to all different areas. Because in the end, we believe that makes you a more well rounded whatever it is you'd like to be. And so in the classroom, you've got philosophers sitting next to economists, sitting next to chemists, sitting next to dramatists, sitting next to folks who are multi decided, who don't know yet, who are exploring a number of different things. Inquiry is encouraged, exploration, asking tough questions, getting into conversations with your classmates. Imagine that civil dialog, the exchange of ideas, intellectual sparring, all to prepare you to solve the problems of the world. How are they present themselves and get creative around problem solving. I'll give you an example. One of the programs that I get excited about is that Ohio, Wesleyan, where they talk about, think big, do good, go global and get real, right? And so how that starts is you're going to integrate all of your you're integrating your studies across academic disciplines. So you're thinking big, thinking outside of one specific area, although you will have a major service is super important to that community. And so you're going to incorporate things that you value, what you believe in in service, you're going to go and study abroad, you're going to do some kind of global experience and some kind of research, and then you're going to apply all of that to something really practical, whether that's an internship or research or project. You're studying economics, you're also interested in the environment, and because you've got that challenge to do some kind of service, you spend two weeks in Iceland studying eco tourism and how that eco tourism benefits the country and the people and the different businesses that are impacted, right? So agriculture, hospitality, even healthcare, in a lot of ways, but what toll does that take on the environment, all those benefits? So you're doing a cost benefit analysis. You're combining your love of the environment at faraway places. And this case, the student had really dreamed of studying in Iceland, and the thought came to him and his freshman class and a theory seminar class about this, and then you're an economics major, and you come back now and you're looking ahead to graduate studies and environmental economics like that's just one of those things that was a lot, but you can tell I'm a fan, and I will happily say that all these years later, once my family really understood what that meant as I was engaging in my undergraduate studies, they were super Happy.


Ethan Sawyer  7:59  
And this is maybe a hard one, but who is it right for? Like, liberal arts colleges are right for the kind of student who fill in the blank.


Speaker 1  8:10  
Yeah, so liberal arts college, liberal arts and sciences colleges, are right. Thank you for liberal arts and sciences colleges are right for the student who likes to ask questions, who maybe is curious about more than one thing, who is multi decided. And in my practice, Ethan, I will never say undecided, because I think it's cruel to ask a young person or an older person, or any people totally that matter, what do you want to do with the rest of your life? Right? Right? So it's, I think they're especially great for folks who are looking to explore, who haven't honed in maybe on that just that one path, yet we're open to that discovery process. I think they're great for folks who want to work closely with faculty, although I don't think Liberal Arts and Sciences colleges are the only places where you can do that, but that's certainly something that is emphasized. I think they're great for folks who want to be part of a collective work in community, you know, more of a communal enterprise, more of a collaborative experience, solving problems together, looking at different solutions, and hypothesizing together, applying what you're learning in the field, very creatively. Those, I think, are some of the things, some of the things, some of the characteristics of a person who might be super happy. You know, if you're somebody who's aligned with I definitely know what I want to do, and I identified the educational pathway that's going to get me there. So if you can choose a certain profession or vocation and the right program that will get you there. You probably wouldn't be as happy at a Liberal Arts and Sciences College, because we would say that's fantastic. But have you looked at what you want to do from this angle and this angle and this angle, and that would probably be frustrating for you if you thought, nope, I just want to be an accountant.


Ethan Sawyer  9:58  
Lovely. I. So talk to me about the college search process a little bit. What do you find to be a good place for folks to start if they're just say, embarking on


Speaker 1  10:08  
this journey? That's an excellent question. I think one of the first places I like to advise folks to start is by taking a deep breath and thinking about their reason why? Why are you going to college? And I know like guest scando, what a scandal like, why can you Why are you even saying that? What do you mean? Why are you going to college? Isn't it obvious? Maybe, maybe not. And I think there's so much noise that taking that around this whole process and what it means for students so and so, much of that noise creates so much anxiety that I think it's good to step back and just breathe for a second. It's just Tuesday, or whenever, dear listener, you are hearing this, and to think about, why do you want to go right? Are there life goals that you think can only be met by going to college? Is it to give yourself a chance to explore more of the world? Is it to figure out who you are and what matters to you. Is it to get to know other kinds of people you know, to do something different outside of the community that you grew up in? Like, what is it if you have a well articulated professional pathway that's fabulous, then maybe that makes that's your reason why that makes sense, why you might want to go and if you don't, maybe your reason why is to is to find that, maybe your reason why is to help your family generally, generationally, move from one socioeconomic space to another. Right, like I'm a first generation college graduate, definitely benefited from all sorts of other privilege, which is another conversation, but did not have the my parents didn't have the privilege of higher ed. So for me, my reason why was not just get a job, but create a life and a space for myself that would benefit my family and then the folks that came after me. So I think that's kind of a brilliant place to start. And when you're thinking about why, think about, you know, like, what you value and how you want to be known once you've taken those deep breaths and thought about your reasons why, or reason why. But for many of us, it'll be multiple reasons. I think another thing that it's great for students and families to do, particularly students, is think about who they'd like to be in college, or who they'd like to be when, I don't want to say, grow up, because some of us are still waiting for that to happen. But as you evolve as a person, who would you like to be surrounded by? What kind of personal board of directors have you created for yourself, or would you like to and just just the word on a personal board of directors. These are the people that this is like your chosen family, right, an extension of your biological family, or sometimes for some of us, in place of our biological families. But who are you going to surround yourself with that will cheer you on, that will advise you, that will let you rant when you need to, and then help redirect you? Who are you bouncing your ideas off of, who will you listen to when maybe you've made a decision and it kind of either blew up in your face or didn't turn out the way you wanted it to. And so now you need some really constructive feedback, and who's going to debrief with you? Like, who is your Monday morning who is your Monday morning quarterback? Right? Like, that's your personal board of directors who knows you well enough to introduce you to activities or opportunities that are going to help you develop some strengths or take advantage of your skill set. That's another person that's great to have. And how do you want to be known, right? And so I think another thing to think about is, how do you want to be known? How what, not necessarily your reputation, but what is the mark that you want to leave when people think of you? What do you want to have them think about, or how would you like them to react? And I don't want that to get us into some weird kind of like doing things because of what other people say, kind of situation. But what kind of mark Do you want to leave on the world, which is a pretty heady question, you know, depending on where you are in your life's journey, but and it can change too, right? So just for this moment, I think those are some cool kind of things to think about. So sometimes, as I'm advising folks to ask the why questions and to think about who they want to be and how they want to be known, it's also good to step step aside and ask yourself, should I be doing some myth busting?


Speaker 2  14:25  
Ooh, cool. I'm into it. How do how do we do that? How do we myth bust?


Speaker 1  14:29  
So myth busting around like what you personally value, or what you believe to be true, and a very, a very good way to approach this, and I'm going to steal from Byron Katie, who calls her life's work, or this method of self inquiry, the work. There are four questions that Byron Katie puts out there, and I encourage you to check them out. I'm a fan. Great way to combat some things that you might think you know and understand to be true about yourself and some experience. That you've had, or feelings that you've had, but in this case, I'm going to just kind of shorten them a little bit and use it in the in the college search process, or myth busting yourself. So you want to challenge yourself to think about what is it that you really know to be true about colleges? As a matter of fact, you could do this now. You could make a list of what you know to be true about colleges, about some of the schools that you're thinking about, some of the schools that you think you know something about, some of the schools that people talk to you about are recommended to you, some that may have entered your sphere of interest, some that you may be considering, hopefully, they feel lucky to be considering you. And jot down some of the things you think you know are true about them, and then challenge, why you think that's true, right? And so the question would be, is it true what I think I know about the school, and can I absolutely know that it's true? If so, how? Right? So here's an example. College x is an amazing school. We hear that all the time, and I'm going to refrain from using a particular college name, but let's just say it's one of those. It's one of the schools that everybody talks about, right? So college X is a phenomenal school, and it's going to be perfect for me. Is that true? How do we know that that's true? Can you absolutely prove that it's true? How? Another way you might think about that might be okay? Well, this college, college x, is way more selective, so that means it's a better in air quotes kind of school. Okay, ask yourself, is that true? Is it absolutely true? How do I know that that's absolutely true, right? You see where I'm going with this? Totally. Yeah. And you can do the same with yourself, right, with your skill set, or things that you think you have to offer the college or that I wouldn't I like to use it in the in the adverse or self reflection that, like, beats back maybe some myths I have about myself that says, well, I could never be successful there because I don't have a certain course that I've completed, or I haven't won the Nobel Peace Prize, or yet, yet, right? Or I don't have a patent on something, or haven't discovered the cure for something, and so there's no way I could ever get into that college. It works really good with absolutes that are myths that we think about ourselves, right? Well, is that true? How do you know that that's true? Is that absolutely true? How about this one which is, which is fun, especially when you're combating the myth of, oh, small small colleges don't provide a lot of opportunities, right? So if a college is larger, if a college has an enrollment of a certain number, then it absolutely must offer more opportunities. For me. Is that true? Is that absolutely true? How do you disprove that or prove that? How do you know that you would be super happy in a school that's that large you might be? But how do you know that what kind of experience have you had with that environment doesn't necessarily mean that a smaller school won't offer you the same access to opportunities those where I get obnoxious, because I actually think that a lot of cases where a lot of folks smaller schools offer you greater access to more opportunities. Oh, and then here's another one, because before I get too carried away, that liberal arts and sciences colleges are just for liberals,


Ethan Sawyer  18:16  
right? Well, it's got liberal in there. That's the same thing, right, right,


Speaker 1  18:20  
and so different word, different meaning. So those two questions that are kind of essential are, you know, is it true? And then, is it absolutely true? Can I absolutely know that it's true? And if so, I think are good questions to start


Ethan Sawyer  18:34  
with, yeah, I love this exercise. I side note, love The Work of Byron Katie, if you end up getting her work. I love it on audiobook too, because she's just, you hear her do, like, live sessions, which is really lovely. So just to recap, y'all, you can actually, literally pause the podcast, take out a piece of paper, write down a thing you know, or just think about a thing you know, and then ask, is it true? How can I be absolutely certain that it's true? I love that. I think it's really practical. I'm curious, are there what are some questions that you feel like are important for students and families to be asking themselves as they go through this process? So


Speaker 1  19:11  
one of my favorite lines that Lord Pope ever wrote was this, what happens during the stay is what counts. And so I think I would take the next question or thing to think about for students and families from that, and that's to say, the question I would pose is, what do you want to do? What do you want to do with this precious time that has been given to you, but especially the next four ish years of your undergraduate and beyond, right? And of your the the next four ish years of your post secondary study, let's say it that way. What is it that you want to do? And it's a bigger question than just your major. Remember, it's okay to be multi decided. It's what's happening during your stay. What are the kind of adventures that you would like to have? Do you want to study abroad? Would you like to do research? Research. Would you like to work collaboratively with a team, with your faculty members and classmates, on any number of projects? Would you like to get and stay engaged in student leadership? Is that something that you've done in high school, and a word about high school, by the way, you don't have to have done it all. By the time you get to senior year, you may have done quite a bit. You may have taken advantage of a lot of different things that are available to you or through your school. Let's put it that way, through clubs and organizations, athletics, the arts. You may have also worked or had responsibilities in your family, and so your co curricular portfolio may not be as thick as your classmates, and that's okay to think a great way to ask, what, what do you want to do, not just with your life, but while you were in college, engaged in your post secondary studies? Is, is there something that you missed, that you'd like to try? Is there something that you'd like to do more of? What are you craving? And I think I stole, actually, that verb from you, Ethan, what is it that you crave, right? What opportunities have you had in high school taken advantage of or not because they just weren't presented for you? When you look at your place in the world, what are things that you want to do in the world? And that may be kind of a big one, go back to breathing and thinking about Tuesday, because just do Tuesday first. But when you we all have those dreams, I think, I guess I want students and families to give them wings, right? To really. Dream big, dream big, play hard, work hard, rest well, love others, right? Like, what is it that you want to do if you want to be of service? Okay, what might that look like, and how do you take advantage of that? And what sort of community do you want to build for yourself, or be a part of or start if you if you can't find one that already exists. And I think a related question to that is, where do you imagine yourself happy? You know, where do you imagine yourself happy?


Ethan Sawyer  21:51  
Yeah, I love these questions. I love them, of course, as the College Essay Guy, because these are a lot of the questions that I end up asking students when they're trying to write their why us essay, or their y major essay, and like, in particular, questions like, what problems do you want to solve? I just really want to just plus one, the notion of asking these questions if you can, of course, if you listen to this and you're like, a senior or like you're in 12th grade, you're like, Well, thanks, too late. But my point here is that, like, if you are in ninth, 10th, 11th grade. Like, it's not too early to begin thinking about, what are the some of the things that you're interested in doing. Now, I don't, and I don't believe you Anna, as somebody who just believes that high school is all about, like, let's just prepare for college. And we're kind of like, on this, you know, march towards college. So not everything that you do in high school should be about college. But I'm a fan of students asking this, you know, asking these kinds of questions earlier.


Speaker 1  22:43  
I would love to encourage students to think about when they're getting involved with things, why they're getting involved with them. So as a senior, right? It's not a mad dash to add things to your resume or your portfolio. It's really a time to be reflective about why did I get involved with that or not, and what did I learn about myself from it? How did it help me grow? Would I do it again? Right? I don't think it's a time to beat ourselves up about the choices we made. It's really just to think very intentionally and very carefully and thoughtfully about well, why did I get involved with that in the first place? And if you're a younger student, why would I get involved? Not like a resume builder, not like you said, to start that marathon that that march towards college prep. It's really, how do I want to spend my time? Because I'm a pretty fabulous individual, right? How? And a talented one at that. And those talents become revealed to you, those skills that you have, those strengths, growth areas, right, become more apparent to you the older and older that you get. I think it's hard sometimes to kind of unwrap those and figure out where they are in high school, because there's so much going on in your frontal lobe, so give yourself a break, kid. But yeah, thanks for underscoring that, because I certainly don't mean to suggest that high school is just that road to trudge on the way to college. It's it's really a chance to figure out who am I and what matters to me and what do I value, and I know that's at the heart of so much of the work that you do on getting students to be authentic and be themselves and share authentically and of themselves across their application and in their essays. So and since we're on the subject of figuring out why you got involved in things, or why you would get involved with things, or how those speak to the values that you have, or what you think is important, or what you got out of them. All that kind of reflection work. Another question I like to advise students to ask themselves when they're starting this whole college search process is, who would you like to be surrounded by? Right? So we talked a little bit about community, what kind of community you'd like to build? Well, who's in your community? Who are you sitting next to in class? Who are you walking across campus to class with? Who you engaging in research or study abroad or conversation with? Do they come from similar backgrounds? Do they have your shared experiences? Do your origin stories sound the same, or are they coming from very different backgrounds? Or a nice mixture of the two, somewhere in between, who's on campus, what kind of conversations are happening on campus, what's the campus vibe? What do people get excited about? What takes up space in those places, in and outside of classrooms? Right? Because we know the education that happens on a college campus doesn't always happen in classrooms between 8am and 10pm however late classes go. Now, I always avoided those early morning classes so but anyway, there's such an education outside of the classroom, so thinking about who you're going to be surrounded by, and the kinds of greater campus wide conversations that are happening that can be really important to help you figure out, okay, is this going to be a space where I'm going to feel comfortable and challenged and nurtured and supported, uplifted, and I'd like to go back to that word challenged, right? Is this going to be a place that's going to push me a little bit, especially to get closer to identifying what impact I'm going to have on the greater world? Do you have an exercise that you would suggest that helps students figure that out? I


Ethan Sawyer  26:04  
mean, yeah, there's one that I love, from shout out to Katie Murphy and Peggy Hawk, who do presentations at most of our regional conferences on this exact subject, and they have this cool exercise. It's pretty simple, where you imagine a typical day on a campus, and some students will prefer to write this out. And here's what I would see myself doing. And other students, who are, you know, artistically inclined, prefer to draw it out. And in fact, I think there is a separate exercise. So they'll just be like, just draw yourself on campus. What are you doing? Who are you with? And it can be pretty illuminating. And then having students, if this is a counselor, listening, having students just share out and hear from one another. Oh, here's another thing that I that another student has said that they would be doing. Oh, yeah, that sounds pretty good to me. I can add that to my picture, yeah. Or Whoa, that person's idea of what they want to do to college is very different from


Speaker 1  26:53  
what I want to be doing. Yeah, I love giving students another what's the fancy term in education modality, but another way to think about it, right? So for some of us who are more comfortable, writing, for some of us to draw it and then to speak it out and to share that with your you know, if you do that, speaking it out and making it real for one, gives it power. But I also think this that's that's a great exercise to do as an individual, and then share that if you're comfortable with your college advisor, college counselor, your counselor, your mentor, wherever it is that's walking you through this process, such a great insight into what matters to you. It's important to you, and would help them really help you shape, I think your list. I love that. Another shout out to Peggy and


Ethan Sawyer  27:35  
Katie. What else? What else should folks be asking? Well,


Speaker 1  27:39  
I think if you have and I love that, that exercise of writing down or drawing a picture of yourself on campus or typical day, and what you're experiencing, and when you think about yourself happy, what does that look like, and what's your community look like, and who are you surrounded by? Another great question to ask yourself, is okay, so I'm in those spaces and in those classrooms, how am I How am I learning? How do I learn best? What kind of learner am I? Am I someone who is always contributing to class discussions, or am I seeking support and sharing my thoughts or my deeper reflections privately with the teacher or a smaller group of people after class or before class, or chat rooms? Have I been engaged in research? Is that something that I've enjoyed? What is even research? Have I read a research paper or two or three or nine or 12? Is that something that that I've enjoyed? Do I find myself falling down rabbit holes, doing more research independently? Because, wow, something that somebody said really sparked this other thought, and I need to know more. Or I think maybe there was a gap, there was something missing, or we ran out of time, and I just can't stand it. And I've, I've got to know, got to know more about that. What kind of support are you going to need? Right? I think as a learner, it's also important to know, first of all, that everybody could use a little backup, and that you don't need to wait until you're flailing and in trouble, not that that's going to happen to you. But I've worked with so many students who thought, nope, I'm going to stick this out. I'm in college and until I'm, you know, really not doing well. That's what I'm going to go for, academic support or mental health support. Set a baseline for yourself right from the beginning and think about all right, well, what kind of support could I use right from the beginning, and how do I connect with that? And what kind of supports are available for mental health, for academics, for my writing, for public speaking, whatever it is that you think you might want support with. And for me, I wish I would have known that sooner. Check all the boxes, yes, please. Like, right? Like, comprehensive services means comprehensive services, and it's included in the cost of everything. Like, go for it, you know, take advantage of all of that kind of thing. I


Ethan Sawyer  29:53  
want to double click on that. What are there any things that you wish you'd known or done differently when you went to college?


Speaker 1  29:58  
Yeah, and I. Think, I mean, what's what's beautiful about the experience I had is I felt really supportive, but I wish somebody would have said to me earlier on, and said it several times, maybe in different ways, that I didn't have to know what I wanted to do when I was 17 or when I was 25 like the fourth century crisis was real, okay, or that I didn't even have to figure it out by the time I was 50, and now that I'm beyond that, we'll just stop. But you know that that constant personal evolution is is an okay thing, and to be restless is okay. It's what you do with that energy that really, really matters. But yeah, that I didn't, I didn't have to have it all figured out when I was 17 that the ambiguity was actually where the power is. Whoa, right? And I don't do you. Does anything like that. Stick with you. Are there things that you wish you would have known that somebody would have told you? Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  30:53  
totally the one, the big one for me was, like, I didn't know until, I think after I graduated, that you could get free therapy. You could just go and talk to somebody and a loving, you know, caring human could just sit and help you figure out your brain and your heart. And, gosh, that would have been so awesome to start that and to, like, normalize that. I think there was that was to some extent normalized in my family, you know, but not to the extent that I I don't think I really knew what resources were available. I was a, you know, a zero EFC kid, which is code for, like, couldn't afford, you know, to go to school without scholarships, right? And like, I didn't know until someone told me that, like, I could study abroad. I'm like, wait, what? I can work with that. And they're like, no, wait, your scholarships apply. And I was like, What? What? That sounds amazing. So I did. So for those of you students who are listening, who are like, I don't know if I can afford that, look, if you get into one of these schools that you know is like, making it, making it, you know, giving you scholarships and stuff, there's so much that's available to you, and so it's hard to, like, know what, what questions to ask. But some of these things, like, you can ask like, Hey, does, can I study abroad potentially, and can I, you know, or what services, what student support services are available? And also, you can also just to make a connection, and you can do this even before you're applying. You can actually ask admission officers the same questions that Ann and I are asking each other, which is, like, what's something that you wish you'd done differently? Or what's one of the coolest things about this school that, like, people don't really know about. So you could ask those kinds of questions. And part of what can happen is that you start to develop a connection with this person, which at small schools like some of the CTL ctcl schools, it could be that that's the person who ends up reading your application. So there's, we'll link to it. There's a guide about developing a relationship, an authentic connection, I should say, not a relationship, but an authentic connection with your admission officer. And we'll share more tips on that separately.


Speaker 1  32:47  
I love all of that. I love that. I love asking an admissions counselor a deeper question like that, what's it? What's a resource that is fabulous on campus that you wish more people knew about or took advantage of? Right? Just love that and always asking what's possible, because until somebody says no and you ask three times, I don't know why that's the magic number, but yeah, until somebody says no, it's a possibility, right? So


Ethan Sawyer  33:11  
you mentioned earlier that notion of like, what happens during the stay is what counts. But I want to let's talk for a minute to students who aren't going to visit, or who can't visit, or who realistically, just can't visit, all the schools they're applying to. Like, how does a student get a sense of the character of a school if they're not able to visit the campus? Yeah,


Speaker 1  33:34  
so if you're not physically able to get to campus for whatever reason, I think there are so many different ways to get to know the vibe, the place, the people. You could start with any number of virtual programs that are being held now there's some really beautiful, beautifully done tours of campus that are available for you online, in a virtual kind of setting, you can connect with student groups like Ethan suggested reaching out to your admissions counselor early to establish those authentic connections. There's nothing that says you can't reach out to student groups. You can follow them on social media and follow up with questions about the activities or the things they're getting involved in, and how you might get involved with them, or how they started a certain initiative, that kind of thing, talking to students from your high school that maybe have had experience as undergraduates at those places. So connect to your counselor, advisor or mentor, about alumni from your high school or community programs that you've been involved in that have you know community based organizations or other kinds of groups that have gone on to the schools that you might be looking at, see if you can connect with them. I know lots of colleges have that home visit for the holidays program where undergraduates will come back to their high schools and share their experiences. That's another great way to do that. Reaching out to faculty and professors is another way to get to know them. You know you can have. Actually phone people. I know that's like so 20th century. What are great, you know, creating a tick tock or a snap, or an Insta DM, or whatever it is y'all are doing these days, but picking up the phone and having, I'm i jest, I just, I tease, but having, you know, having a real conversation. Those are, those are other good things to do. Let's talk for a


Ethan Sawyer  35:24  
couple minutes about affordability. Because I think especially when it comes to, let's say, private schools students think, well, that'd be awesome, but I can't afford it. So bust some affordability myths for us. Let's


Speaker 1  35:35  
bust those myths wide open. Let's do it. Well, how do you know you can't afford it? First of all, ask yourself that question. I don't think that the sticker price is always the final what you're going to pay price. And I think too often we get thrown off by looking at that sticker price and making some assumptions around how a college is going to award financial aid to me in my particular situation. And so I want to myth bust that one.


Ethan Sawyer  36:03  
And why is that so? Like, what is it that students or families don't often know because they see that price and they're like, Well, how do we know that's what they said it costs. That's what it costs, right and right, without getting into, like, all the particularities of how that works. Like, just give me the, give me the, the two foot deep version of, like, why the sticker price isn't the actual price. So


Speaker 1  36:22  
why the sticker price isn't actually the price you're going to pay has a lot to do with a college's funding philosophy, and more often than not, the endowment or the savings, the resources they have to work with to award students financial aid. And every situation, every student is individually considered. So there's no blanket statement to say, Oh, if you go here, this is what you can expect to pay all students, right? Because it's highly individualized as as a process, and in many instances, private liberal arts and sciences colleges have greater resources or endowments to share with students and families from across income backgrounds than our public flagship institutions or public in state institutions. And that's that's just the way it is. They all have different ways of awarding scholarships, and scholarships are awarded to for a variety of reasons, right for academics, for leadership, for accomplishments, for promise, for interests, for things yet to happen. So it's kind of hard to hard to predict that. I think another myth I'd love to bust on its head is I can't borrow money, or I shouldn't borrow money. I'll get into too much debt. And I know that's a really hot topic right now. A lot of conversation around that nationally happening, especially as many of us are watching to see what the what the federal government will do around student loan debt and borrowing and forgiveness and that sort of thing. You know, I can only speak to the experience that I've had and of the experience that students I've worked with have had in terms of responsible borrowing. And I think in a lot of situations, if you can be intentional about applying for all of the aid, regardless of your family situation, that's grants and scholarships from your state and from the federal government, from each individual College, and then from outside organizations and companies and groups that are offering all sorts of different scholarships and borrowing just the minimum, just what you need, understanding long term that that has to be repaid back and taking a deep look at the kind of situation you might find yourself in once you graduate, you can do okay with that. You don't have to get in over your head. And this is where that financial fit conversation comes into play, right? So if you're doing some research and and I love to throw out the cost of college and transparency tools that the Department of Education puts out, because there's a lot of really useful stuff there about what college really does cost. That's a great way to kind of break down some of these meds, but you can get a sense of like, what that borrowing may look like for you and how much you think you can handle. So don't automatically think that you've got to borrow into your grandchildren's lives or legacy to make college happen. What


Ethan Sawyer  39:04  
about this notion that private schools are always more expensive?


Speaker 1  39:07  
Yeah, so they're not No. What about this? What about this notion that private schools are always more expensive? That's not always the case. Again. It really depends on the college's commitment to funding, and how they're awarding financial aid, and what their resources look like in terms of their endowment, how they're spending that on individuals, students, and from from a ctcl perspective, from the perspective of the 44 member institutions at the colleges that change lives, I know that's not true, because there is such a commitment, talk about being student centered, to making that education really affordable for the students. So whether that's in the form of scholarships for like I said, academics or interests or potential or things that a student has accomplished or backgrounds, whatever the case, may be, really taking into consideration the individual students history. And information that goes beyond the forms that you may fill out, right? So a very holistic way of looking at a student and their ability to pay it can it can make it a lot more affordable,


Ethan Sawyer  40:12  
yeah, when you mentioned this notion of keeping students at the center of the search, what does that mean? And even more, like, practically speaking, what are some tips for parents about keeping students at the center of the search?


Speaker 1  40:28  
That's a whole other podcast. Just for parents. I think we should tell parents to breathe too, right? What does that what does that mean to keep students at the center of the search? It means help your student identify what matters to them most, what their values are, what they're dreaming about, what their priorities are, remember, we talked a little bit earlier about what are you hoping to do? What happens during this day is what matters? Who are you hoping to be surrounded by? What kind of community do you want to build for yourself? Let the answers to those questions guide the search and help build the list. A lot of us, I think, like to look at rankings lists, and I get that because they're easy, they're easy to find, maybe not as easy to digest, because you have to kind of understand what's going into the algorithms that are creating them. And there are some that are very popular or widely used and have been touted for a very, very long time, but I would invite students and parents to think critically as informed consumers, right? Like, here's a here's a tiny little segue if you're going to invest some serious time in and research before you buy a car or a dishwasher or a leaf blower, whatever it is, or before you go to see a movie or eat at a certain restaurant, right? You're doing all this kind of research and looking at different rankings. Are you not also considering what might work best for you and your family? Yes, you are. So let's apply that same kind of wisdom as an informed consumer to this whole college thing. Look at what goes into those algorithms that create the rankings right? What criteria are they using? What characteristics, what pieces of information, and do those things reflect your values, your students values, what your family values, what matters to your family about that particular college or university, and if they're not reflective, create your own rankings list, right? So if I'm going to come up with the 12 or 15 or 22 things that are super or most important to me, this is what I want in my undergraduate or graduate, post graduate community, what schools are going to check off those boxes, and how would I rank them according to my own ranking list and how many of those boxes need to be checked, right? So if I've got a list of 22 things, what are my non negotiables? What are the things I'm flexible on? That's where I would start. Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  42:52  
we'll link in the show notes too. There's a guide that we put together on that has some practical resources that you can use in some steps as you're putting together your college list, it's got some of our favorites. The other thing


Speaker 1  43:04  
I would say about keeping it student centered is recognizing that a student's choices, the way that they develop their list, the schools that end up on their list, are beautiful and uniquely theirs. It doesn't have to look like anybody else's list, and that no matter where they go, if they focus on what matters to them, on connecting to the people, oh well, on connecting to people in a way that's meaningful to them, connecting to activities and organizations and opportunities that are meaningful to them, staying engaged in their learning, Asking questions, seeking out resources, going back to what is happening during the stay, because that's what really matters. They're gonna have a great experience, and they're gonna be okay, like at the end of the day. I think as counselors and advisors and families, what we really want is for our student to individuate and to be self sustaining and to be happy, and maybe if they choose to to to spend their lives with somebody who cares about them in a really deep and significant way, right? To have a life partner. If that's something that they want, that's what we want. So if we keep the focus on them and what matters to them, and connecting them to the places, in terms of colleges, universities that are going to uplift them, challenge them, nurture them, plug them into some opportunities, create access for them in terms of high impact educational experiences, they're going to be okay and they're going to be successful in all the ways that we define success. That's what it means to say student centered. It means keeping as much of the hype and anxiety out of your conversations and your car because that seems to be where all the like heavy duty conversations around college, happens out of your chat messages, right out of those conversations around the family supper table, if you still are able to do that, creating those moments of joy, those confetti moments, right, reminding your student that they're enough and that ultimately, where they go to school doesn't matter. It's just. That they're going to go and they're going to be fabulous regardless. So,


Ethan Sawyer  45:04  
and I love the story that you told at the start about what it's like to be a student at a liberal arts college. Can you do that? Can you do that trick for us once more? Can you give us, like, one more example of the type of journey that that students go through when they when they go into a liberal arts education? Okay, picture this,


Speaker 1  45:20  
you go into college thinking that you are an English major and you're gonna write the next great young adult novel because you're an English major, but you're at a Liberal Arts and Sciences College whose program is oriented around service and thinking bigger than yourself and thinking deeper than just the academic area you've identified. So working with a professor, you identify an internship for yourself after being forced into a sociology class, forced in quotes, right? Yeah, forced in quotes and air quotes you can't see that. Forced into a sociology class that places you in an internship working with a community based organization that was serving young folks, serving youth that were unhoused and primarily had lost their housing or been kicked out of their homes because they identified as members of the LG LGBTQIA community, and so you were examining the reasons for them getting into that space, into that community center, and looking at their stories, right, their histories. And as a result, did this really in depth study about unhoused youth and turn that into a series of short stories that you could use to educate fundraisers and philanthropists in that local and then greater community like That's remarkable. That's the kind of stuff that happens. I'm


Ethan Sawyer  46:37  
so hyped, and I want to go back to college right now and be that student, to wander that path and to rediscover my my calling as, I don't know, maybe a young adult fiction writer that sounds I actually feel, I feel legit inspired.


Speaker 1  46:53  
That's awesome. There's also a great story that came out of St John's and with apologies to Ben Baum and Carolyn Randall, because they tell this story better. But St John's is a great books College, and so for our folks,


Ethan Sawyer  47:08  
know what that is, yeah, yeah.


Speaker 1  47:09  
So the great books kind of approach education from a collection of essential texts. And rather than, let's I'm just going to use an example that I understand the best. So rather than, let's say, study geometry as a series of equations or theorems to memorize and apply. Right? So the Pythagorean theorem is a great example. Who among us cannot remember or has forgotten geometry in 10th grade and being presented with a Pythagorean theorem and then applied it to a problem and how that all worked out. But rather than just studying the theorems or the concepts and then applying them to mathematical equations, you actually go back and you read the authentic source material. So you read Pythagoras. Now, for a lot of us, that's like, wicked cool, and you spend a lot of time talking about it. And for other people, you might think, wow, okay, interesting. I don't know, but there's a whole collection of these essential texts that you would read. So from Homer all the way to Plutarch to cart. I mean, there's just across the spectrum of Western civilization and beyond, reading the essential authors, and then looking at current day situations, historical situations, issues, problems, concepts, challenges from that perspective. And so there's a young person that came out of St John's from that background, and through a variety of conversations, found himself in the Peace Corps, subsequently working in an agriculture kind of situation, but had, again, a love for Economics and Business and Commerce and sustainable agriculture, responsible agriculture. And as a result of his education, his exposure to the great books and then that time with the Peace Corps, is now one of the world's leading online retailers for disease resistant bananas. And the only way that you can go from A to Z and that story Ethan, is by being at a Liberal Arts and Sciences College that encourages exploration and throwing you into the deep end with research and collaborative experiences and study abroad, getting you out of your comfort zone. Great, asking all of those tough questions and then saying, Okay, what are you going to do about it? Great, you want to spend some time. Want to spend some time exploring that awesome. Let's put together a proposal. Wait, there are funds to help you do that, that the college actually provides even better like, that's the only way that that kind of story ends up the way it does. That's


Ethan Sawyer  49:35  
bananas. So and give us a practical step for folks who are listening, what's a thing that they can go and do tomorrow to help move them along on this journey of finding a great college.


Speaker 1  49:45  
And I like to call those Ethan in my work, I like to call those ek moments. And what so what's next? Great. So I've heard all this, and now, what do I do? And I'd like to direct folks to a values exercise. We will put the link in the show now. Notes, but you can start now simply think about what you value. Brainstorm 10 things that you value, and then think about how they made it to that list, why they're on that list and why they matter to you. In that values exercise, you'll find lots of suggestions if you're having trouble brainstorming, by the way, something to get you started?


Ethan Sawyer  50:23  
Yeah, let's, let's do an example of it. So for example, I'm going to just bring up the values exercise. I'm literally googling it on my computer, values exercise, College Essay, Guy. So if I'm thinking about my own college experience, or, sorry, my own let's start with my own high school experience. I'm probably valuing things like creativity, because I was a big theater nerd, and I'm interested in something like vulnerability or connection. I think was important to me. I also was interested in, definitely in knowledge, so like curiosity, something like adventure. I think I was looking for adventure. I was like, daily living in the city I was living in. I was like, ready to leave Miami. I just went ahead and said it, and I wanted, like, to go somewhere new. I grew up moving around a lot, so I wanted to have an adventure. And I wish I'd done this then, because then I could have, like, when I was thinking about schools, I could have been like, does Northwestern University, you know, potentially, is it going to provide me things like opportunities for creativity and for connection and for adventure, and like, for sure, it did, you know. And that's part of why my, I think part of why my college experience was so great. But what were, if you could think back, what were some, some values that you were hoping to bring into your college experience? And I'm curious to know, like, did you end up finding those things well? And I have


Speaker 1  51:38  
to shout out first before I do that, I just shout out the Sisters of St, Joseph of Corona led, who were my were my family at the Academy of Our Lady of Peace in San Diego, in anyway where I went to high school, because they knew me well enough to know that I probably needed to be at a CSJ college where I ended up, which is Mount St Mary's in Los Angeles. So I would say service was a huge value for me, being of service to others, using my gifts and talents to benefit my community in the world. They taught me the value of community, how that community can uplift you and sustain you. And I think growing up in my family, we had such a strong sense of extended family that was really, really important to us across time zones, across generations. And so that really resonated with me. That was something I wanted in a college. I wanted to feel like I was a part of something I was looking for, my mission moments, if you if you will, with other people that believe similarly in and having impact on the world. The Sisters of St Joseph told me to question things, to be curious, to stay hungry for knowledge. And so I wanted to be at a place that would encourage, that would support me when I raised my hands over and over and over again, because I was the student in class who might have taken up a lot of oxygen because I just I couldn't be sated. I needed to know more. I was when it was always making those connections and sometimes making my friends crazy, because I would say, Well, how have you not thought about that. I can't stop thinking about it, and then I needed to be somewhere where discussion and the exchange of ideas was really valued, right? And very, very fortunate that I landed at Mount St Mary's, where all those things I can say, and this is not a paid testimony, where all of those things came to fruition were very, were very true. They were celebrated, they were uplifted, they were amplified. For me, it was just a brilliant place for me to be in. It is a women's college. And I think that was also maybe another discussion for another time, but I think that was also really important to me. You know, the high school I went to was a Girls College or girls high school. High School where I went was a girls high school, single gender, and then I went to a women's college, and I think for who I think for who I was at 17, and even now, that was a really, really powerful place to be and help me develop voice. But definitely, yeah, but just that, and seeing what we just did for y'all there, gentle listeners, you too, can get to that space by identifying some of the things that that matter to you, that you value too


Ethan Sawyer  54:03  
beautiful. And as we wrap here, what would you like to leave folks with,


Speaker 1  54:07  
never final thoughts, but other things to think about. I want students and families and counselors to remember, especially students, that you are driving this process and that it's not if you will go to college, but where you will go to college. So that's the question to ask yourself. I want you to put your crown on and to find and celebrate those confetti moments, those mini milestones along the way, to celebrate each step that you take, and to remind yourself that you have a lot to offer the community that eventually will welcome you to their class of whatever it will be because you are bringing them a unique individual who's got a lot to say, who's done a lot and who has a lot to dream about and put even more things into practice. And if the colleges that change lives, or myself can be a resource for you, please visit ctcl.org, there will be a lot of information. In the show notes, we're going to share a lot of resources for you all, but remember to breathe and then it's just Tuesday and celebrate the confetti moments.


Ethan Sawyer  55:07  
Lovely and thanks so much for your time. Thank you, Ethan, Thanks friends for listening. If you want to know more about colleges that change lives, go to ctcl.org, where you can find out so much more, including an awesome brochure about heading to college info on college fairs. So you know when ctcl is coming to a town near you, you can subscribe to the newsletter and get info on much more about the 44 member institutions. You'll find in the show notes a link to get that brochure that I mentioned as ever. You'll find in the show notes links to all the things we mentioned. That's at college essay guy.com/podcast and hey, if you're a low income student and you're looking for some free one on one, help check out our match letters program. Every year, we pair hundreds of students with counselors for one on one support on essays and applications. And yes, there is no cost. Learn more at college. Sa guy.com/match, sliders. Shout out to all of our awesome volunteers. I love you, and yes, counselors are always looking for more volunteers, so you can check out the application at that same link. Have a beautiful week and stay here.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai