Show Notes
In today’s episode, Tom Campbell (CEG’s Community Manager) and Susan Tree (a college counseling and admissions legend with 40+ years of experience) chat about “intellectual curiosity”: a quality that many colleges actively look for in students, yet is a little more ambiguous and nuanced compared to mapping out a high school course plan.
This is part 2 of a series about students’ academic background and interests and how they factor into the admissions process. Part 1 is about all things related to the academic part of a student’s college application— which, at many selective colleges, is seen as the “foot in the door” of their selection process.
On the episode you’ll hear Susan and Tom discuss:
Identifying an academic superpower and framing it in that way in your college application
How coming across as “too complete” to colleges (as in, you have no bigger questions you’d like to solve) can actually make your application less competitive
How to infuse intellectual curiosity into your supplemental essays
Showing academic and nonacademic alignment for particularly popular majors
Play-by-Play
1:38 – Reframing your accomplishments as superpowers
7:12 – Identifying your learning style among Architects, Gardeners, and Explorers
10:22 – Why colleges want different types of learners
13:52 – Why communicating what you’re curious about to admissions officers is a good idea
15:07 – Staying in touch with who you are on your application
19:17 – Understanding the pressure to present a complete version of yourself
22:55 – An example of showing intellectual curiosity through supplemental essays
26:44 – The value of curiosity in non-academic spaces
32:52 – How highly-selective colleges evaluate quality vs. quantity in their applicants
38:51 – What is academic alignment vs. non-academic alignment? How does this impact the way colleges read applications?
43:34 – What if your high school doesn’t offer specialized programs to help you explore your intellectual curiosity?
46:49 – Final thoughts
Resources
Show transcript
Susan Tree 0:00
Music.
Tom Campbell 0:07
Hello College Essay Guy, super fans. Or perhaps this is your first pod, and if so, I'm honored. I'm Tom Campbell, college essay guys, Community Manager, and today's episode with my wonderful colleague Susan tree at admissions. Legend with over 40 years of experience, was actually kind of a happy accident, a Bob Ross moment, if you will. In a way, happy accidents like the curious rabbit holes we stumble upon when we're scrolling through Tiktok YouTube or Wikipedia at 2am are actually quite on brand for today's episode intellectual curiosity and college admissions. What it is why it matters to colleges and how to show it. Susan and I met a few months back to record a podcast all about how a student's transcript and course choices impacts their admission process, and in our own process, we ended up recording over four hours worth of footage with lots of twists and turns. One of those twists was actually the concept of intellectual curiosity. It's a quality that many colleges actively look for in students, and yet it's a little more ambiguous and nuanced compared to choosing courses and for you high school seniors listening in, it's something that can be folded into your application process at any stage, regardless of what your transcript even looks like. On today's episode, you'll learn more about identifying an academic superpower and how to frame it in your college application, how coming across as too complete to colleges can actually make your application less competitive. How to infuse intellectual curiosity into your supplemental essays, and the value of showing academic and non academic alignment for particular popular majors, we hope you enjoy.
Susan Tree 1:38
I think what everybody needs to think about is, while I'm in high school, what do I really want to learn more about? What am I excited about? Where do I feel like I have a superpower? Like I was talking to a junior the other day, and he said to me, you know, I'm good at math. I feel like that's kind of it. And I said, is it a superpower? And I said, I want you to reframe what being good at math is, or being a good writer, or being, you know, great at foreign languages, and start realizing that you are gifted, that we've all been gifted with certain abilities, and that it's our job, you know, to be a gardener. And, you know, kind of like we in our little garden, cultivate those gifts, you know, like my young man who just said, I'm good at math. And he said, Well, I said, How do you know you're good at math? Just because you've gotten straight A's and you've made it to, you know, your second year of calculus. Okay, that's you're good at math. But let's go a little deeper than that. And he said, Well, my math teacher last year has asked me to TA to be a teaching assistant in a class next year, and my 10th grade math teacher asked if I would would help in the middle school tutoring program. And I'm really active in the math club, and I've taken on the role of membership chair so I can go out and find a greater diversity of students who would like to be involved in the math competitions. He said, Oh, well, I don't have to even describe because you can guess. He goes, I sit in class every day with girls who are really good at math, but they won't come out to math club. And I need to, I need to figure out what's going on with that, because that's I said, Well, what's your legacy going to be? Because that's what colleges are asking when they read your application, is, what kind of initiative Did you show and what kind of impact have you had? It's like, so you're good at math, and he's like, writing down notes on our zoom call. And I said, because that's what they're going to want to know about you, is, is, what initiative did you take? What did you decide you wanted to accomplish? And what's the impact going to be? What changes are you going to help implement? And then what's going to be there when you leave? And he was, he was astonished, because he went from like, well, blah, I'm good at math. I've always been good at math. Everybody tells me I'm good at math. And then he started really realizing that there was this constellation of descriptors and engagement and activity around that talent, that ability, and I like to call it a superpower, to elevate it in the minds of the students, where they can start seeing it the way that the colleges are going to look for it, right? So whatever kind of high school you attend, there's going to be a way to kind of unpack and elevate those things that that you like to do, that you do well that may be where your best grades are, so that as you write your college applications, colleges can begin to see the energy associated with that that ability, whether. It's you know, writing or languages, or you know, or math or whatever, the energy that's an engagement that is associated with it. So their grades on your transcript right that tells a very particular story to the colleges. But then there's this, and I'll use that word context again, but the level of of energy, imagination, design, thinking, intellectual curiosity, the things that your teachers are actually likely to write about in your letters of recommendation, if you're asking the right teachers right because they've known you, not just as that great student in the classroom, but as that person who thinks that way and behaves that way and engages others in that way totally,
Tom Campbell 5:46
I think, like that, that qualitative side of the coin with courses is just not discussed as much, or not thought about as much as a factor in admissions conversations. And it is and and it, I think it's just harder for students and families and counselors, even to to identify, where can that show up, and how can someone on the other end who's reading about this, where can they see that? Because if you have a transcript with a letter grade, you know, of course, some schools write narrative evaluations, and of course, you know, people at admissions are like, oh gosh, we got a transcript from st Ann's or Francis park, or we got a really, got a few more minutes in the day for this. But it really is true that that qualitative side is is such a part of the conversation that I did not have any sense of, you know, when I was applying or didn't start working in admissions. And I think it's so funny that we were talking about the student that you worked with most recently, who was like, I'm good at math, right? Like, it kind of, I've worked with so many students who all kind of asked them, like, what do you like, what are you good at? And it will be a one sentence answer. And then if you ask guiding questions, you know, as a counselor or as a parent, to try and get a little bit more about the why behind why that stimulates you, why you are excited to do it. What do you want it to lead to? Those? Can those aren't always going to be, as a student, being asked those questions, like, I get it like, You're not always going to have an answer. You know, it's like, right off the tip of your tongue. It's funny that you brought up the idea of, like, cultivating your garden, essentially, I think you use that phrase. And in fact, behind the scenes that college Jessica guy, in the past few years, that have been between different retreats and little mini think tanks that we've had on the team, one kind of output that I don't know if it's been talked a lot about in college, Jessica, blogs or materials. So maybe this may be a spoiler alert, but colleges a guy, kind of identified different working styles for students, particularly with their essay writing process and just who they are as learners, and kind of identified three main essentially archetypes or working styles, one being an architect, one being a gardener, and one being an explorer. Wow, funny. It's just funny. They brought up gardener, because I'm like, it actually is, you know, kind of, it's within the CEG universe and way of thinking about the world, which I think is a beautiful thing, but essentially, kind of dividing the three up, you know, you have the architect, which is kind of that is kind of that more methodical, organized, detail oriented, driven schematic. Yes, you like crossing things off your list, and you like getting things done. You like problem solving. You're a thinker and a planner. And, you know, we have, I think, many students, psychologists, a guy, who identify as architects, and it's a great skill to have. You need someone pushing a project along. You need someone who's reigning in more of the Explorer types, who are going out there and thinking about creative ways to do things, and maybe spending a little more time on that than actually accomplishing tasks. So I think, you know, articulating the advantages of being an architect, and also the, you know, we call we use the phrase growing edges. Ecologists a guy. I personally think it's okay to say weakness, you know, because I think we all have weaknesses. It's a part of being human, right? And we have to learn to compensate, yeah, compensate them, or just kind of mention, and it's a big piece. You know, when you read in recommendation letters, when a teacher or counselor identifies a student who has really taken the, I think, mature road and done that, kind of like, you know, stock of, okay, who am I, and what are these areas that I need to grow in, and actually spending time as a high school student thinking about that, and kind of folding that into your academic journey, right? Like, it's huge. And the gardener, you know, to kind of go back to the analogy, it's kind of that, it's kind of the middle because, you know, it's gardening involves a lot of creativity, and it involves a lot of there's an art to kind of putting together a garden, you know, but whether it's a beautiful floral arrangement or a vegetable, you know, actually producing crop to be consumed. But it's that kind of idea of, like, not just methodical architect, but like the methodical spontaneity that can kind of come along with having to pivot and and be flexible, but it is kind of like, I guess, that hybrid territory of these, right? And there's definitely students who, really, you know, will find them, and they're like, you know, the rise of kids who want to double major, right? Like, that's a huge, I think, example of this. And then the Explorer, is that spontaneous, that spontaneous learner, right? Oh, I love that driven. You're driven by passions. You're driven by being independent, inquisitive questions, dreaming, free thinking. It's that kind of, you know, quintessential, especially for parents and counselors tuning in that like, you know, typical liberal arts musing on the quad and sitting around and talking about Kant or Descartes or philosophy or whatnot. You know, that ended the spectrum of the human experience. And I think, you know, for us high school students, or anyone supporting a high school student with, you know, know thyself, I think that I don't know if that's Kant or Descartes or someone else, some philosopher, but that that idea of kind of like really taking stock of who you are and the type of learning you are, and not just understanding that. And of course, there's, I'm sure, so many quizzes, personalities, quests, I think of things like strengths, strengths quest is something that I took when I was in college to kind of help me identify my strengths a little more. I just have a little more of a framework of who you are. I'm a huge fan of things like Myers, Briggs and Enneagram, and I do what you are. Yeah, absolutely. And I think what can be tempting is to kind of try and argue, I'm an architect, but I'm just like, the other thing, in this particular instance, you can kind of own who you are. And actually, colleges are looking for students. They, for example, everyone's like, Oh, you have to be a leader to be admitted to colleges. And I actually, I actually think it's been so over hyped. And I see people like clamoring for titles, really, not actual outputs of leadership or initiatives that actually can be defined as leadership. But anyway, there's, I'd say, such an emphasis on kind of like. And I remember one time, like, I went to a NACA presentation that was about schools that are like, Oh, I'm a big school, but we pick it small by doing this, or I'm a small school, but we make it big by doing this. And it's like, just own what you are and who you are. And colleges want kids who are architects, gardeners and explorers, right? You may think, okay, the MITs and the produce of the world and Cal techs, they're gonna want architects, because that's kind of that right, right thing. But kind of to your point, Susan, when you brought up before about, I think something that I really noticed when I worked at Pomona there was this amazing research conference, right? That, or Summer Research Symposium, essentially, where students would put up posters from their summer research projects along the quad, and it was, you know, beautiful sunny day in the fall, and it's the beginning of the year, and you get to talk with students about something that they've worked several months on with a professor, or Wow, outside company. And what I noticed was, and I've mentioned this on other podcasts and videos, you know, for for College Essay Guy, but what I noticed was, like, the kids who had that kind of like, for me, I stand up and I go to the poster and I see, like, equations and molecules and like, Yeah, I'm having like, terrible flashbacks to my own high school experience where, like, those were not my gig. Never have been never will be okay. And I'm like, Okay, I'm not gonna understand anything the student is saying. And to my surprise, they were able to, and because I think they had that training and they knew, yeah. I mean, that's a huge benefit to the liberal arts, I think absolutely how to articulate their complex, jargony, you know world to an audience that may be unfamiliar. And I think that that's actually something that is a huge life skill that started. I think more about that as a high school student is great, but also it's okay to own if your main contribution to a project or a problem is that architect side that is needed to make our world the functioning place that it is right. And there's also space for gardeners and there's still space for explorers, even with this changing landscape of AI and that changing, you know, career paths where people there is going to be room and space for anyone who falls into any of those three archetypes. And even if you don't, you know you, I think being able to articulate the skills, qualities, values and interests, this is kind of getting back to C, E, G, 101, absolutely. That's kind of our byline of like, the goal of you as a high school student is to communicate those skills, qualities, values and interests. And when it comes to your academic background and things that you're curious about your intellectual curiosities, that is something that being able to kind of own what you contribute and visualize and provide anecdotes from projects you've worked on in school or things you've done outside that are self directed learning projects. Sometimes students don't think, for example, that like, you know, there's no relationship between my academic path and my major and what I want to study, and the things that I'm binging on my phone, or tiktoks that I'm watching, or Wikipedia rabbit holes or random documentaries I'm watching on Netflix at night in bed on my phone. And those two things are not mutually exclusive. There is actually a lot of overlap there, and communicating the things that you are curious about to someone on the other end at admissions is a very wise call, I would say, because again, your grades and the courses that you've chosen tell only half the story, but kind of communicating the type of learner that you are and what you can contribute to a project or a classroom space is something that will be done in some degree by your school through recommendation letters, but it's also important for. You to think about articulating that in your own words through spaces in the application, whether that's something absolutely personal statement. Addition, never
Susan Tree 15:07
feel that coming across as a finished product is a good idea. And I think some students view their application almost like a presentation at a science fair, or poster like that poster, you fair, you were referring to where, okay, they're here, the experiment is over. I have a I have a hypothesis about who I am. I have experimentation, I have data, I have an analysis and a conclusion. And honestly, that's how a lot of kids present the application, where, really it's some of that holds true. But remember, the the end of scientific method is is not the conclusion, it's the questions that come next, the next phase of whatever it is you need to learn. And that, I love that model for the application, because a lot of kids kind of make their applications feel like leading to this grand conclusion, right? And really, what the College wants to know is what's next. And it's not just the name of the major that you've chosen. It's what we've been talking about, is that next great adventure in in learning and self discovery. And sure, it's, you know, I'm working with another student right now who, when our questionnaire asked him about his what he was looking forward to studying in college, and kind of his own sense of where things are going, investment banking. And in fact, it was even more specific than that, private equity management. And like, I'm looking at a 17 year old, yeah, smart 17 year old who clearly had been influenced by some adults, sure, and maybe by the finance club at his high school. Uh huh, right. But my whole first meeting with him was backtracking away from that level of specificity, which was happy it was meant to impress me. Yep, and that's very transparent when you read applications, is, you know, where, where's the authenticity in this? What are, what are the stepping stones the students took to get to that conclusion, whether that conclusion is private equity and investing in being a partner in a firm, yep, literally, that's where I met this young man. Or whether it's, it's not just becoming getting to medical school, it's becoming a, you know, a pediatric neurosurgeon, you know, where there seems to be a lot of intermediate steps that have been left over, of coming across as special or really advanced, and the best thing a student can do is come across as the person they are in this application process. And the the colleges call it authenticity, but that sometimes is, you know, what does that mean? It's the being in touch with with who you are, what you know about yourself, what you wake up in the morning excited to do you know, whether it's the Eagle Scout project, you know where you're you're cleaning up the little mini exercise course behind the senior center so that more seniors can be outside. And do you know, we've all seen things like, what you know? What do you what do you wake up excited to do? Is it a class you're taking? Awesome? Is it something where you're applying skills from a class, but you are then using those in a way where you're, you know, cultivating someone else's garden to in that moment, you know you're helping do that, and yes, you want to take the long, a long look in your application about what the future might hold, because that's how you're picking your college. You're seeing your college as giving you courses, opportunities.
Tom Campbell 19:17
Yeah, and I think something that you brought up, that I think is such a valuable piece of advice is the idea around like completeness, and the pressure that I think many students feel to present a complete version of themselves, especially, you know, and it's a little, it's a little bit of like a, you know, contradiction, which, you know, admissions is riddled with those. So if this is the first time you're gonna get contradicted in admissions, get ready, because you're about to you're on for a wild ride, right? But it is this kind of interesting bottlenecking, right? Of many colleges increasingly moving towards identifying and prioritizing students who do have a little more of a defined path within their journey, right? That is something that I think you're seeing, especially at these more selective colleges. To. Students who are going to be able to fill all the different departments and programs that they have, tenured faculty who teach in these departments, right, who they're not really going anywhere. And unlike, you know, maybe some less, less selective schools, who are making business related decisions and dissolving departments. You know, we were just talking earlier about, you know, Ithaca College, for example, and kind of restructuring their academic approach to be more in line with the needs of the market, right? It's these more selective schools actually don't really need to cater to the market. Need quite as much they they will choose who they want based on the buckets that they need to fill. And so there is, you know, increasingly, right? You know, I think a sense of, like, okay, colleges want kind of this person who has everything figured out and has a path ahead, and they're goal oriented. And oftentimes it's because, you know, students have been fed messages from the beginning of time. And it could be influenced by lots of different places, right? It could be influenced by their school environment. It could be influenced by home. And it's not, you know, if you're parenting, like, how dare you COVID. I'm not saying that to, you know, be critical. It's just a reality of being a sponge as a young person and just absorbing the influences that are around you. So when you're told that kind of being, this complete package is advantageous, and of course, if you're you know, a parent or someone who's working in an industry where you're reading resumes and you realize, you know, oh, they scan, you know, words on and experiences on resumes, and you want someone who has this and that and can just be plugged right into the slot for this job and do it fine without minimal effort or direction and training from the, you know, from the company, right? Many people who kind of come into the admissions process, I think, kind of take that mentality of, like, evaluation of job candidates with them. Yes, you would argue right that you do want someone who's a little more complete and fully fleshed out and has directly paralleled experiences to, you know, the task at hand, but on the topic of students and feeling this pressure to be complete, I would say that voicing the questions that you still have not answered yet, and the questions that are still running through your mind or that you learn from a class that you took, or you heard it on a podcast you listened to, or a documentary you watched, like voicing those to someone at admissions is so much more powerful than I think you realize, because it shows that you are excited to go forward to this next stage In your learning journey after high school, right? And start to think more critically with more resources. Like, what were the three things you mentioned? Courses, advising, and there's a third look, experiences, experiences, leveraging those three things colleges want to know that you are going to take advantage of those because, hey, those are the students that end up making it in press releases and articles and are like, hey, look how great our college or university is. We have these kids who are going out and doing these things to kind of come in complete is not really giving enough to someone. On the other end to be like, Oh, there's more to be done here, right? There's more to be discovered. And I actually want to read two brief these are kind of like excerpts of old supplements from Pomona that are meant to kind of give you an illustration and kind of a contrast for the sake of education, you know, education around the difference between being that complete oriented student and that kind of more questioning student, or noticing questions or instances that still drive that curiosity. Okay? So we have the more complete version, which is, I've explored my intended area of study, business through FBLA, Future Business Leaders of America. Many of you tuning in? Maybe have that in your own high school. You may be taking advantage of it, and that's great, right? You know, in this club, I network with students from other schools, create sample business plans and use social media to promote the chapter. My senior project involves creating mixed media marketing strategies for a local pet shop and implementing a social media marketing campaign I launched on augment my interest in business with the academic foundation that only a liberal arts college like Pomona can provide, I know that Pomona is economics and social sciences courses will give me the fundamental tools I will need for a future in business. So that that's great, there's a degree of I've done a lot of things here, and it's great to kind of give credit to those areas, but it's a little you don't have as much of a sense of what you want to do next, or what's still you're still curious about from that answer. It's a total, it's a fine answer, right? This is not me saying, like, if you are writing something like this, there's no chance you can be admitted to a select school. That's not the reality. But kind of zooming back a little bit, this is version B, or kind of like another student who's also applying to the economics program, or are interested in the economics major at Pomona, and this is their response to the prompt. Basically, the prompt is basically like, you know, tell us about your academic interests or experiences and how they're a good fit for Pomona. Questions of rationality and economic stability have influenced my understanding of politics, the likelihood of the United States pressing the nuclear button. Apparently, if the economy sinks, we're estimating global interdependence and its influence in parentheses. It can be it can prevent war, since much of Asia and the US are trade bound. In my calculus class, I was struck with an economic space problem. Check the box to receive an additional 3% On my quiz grade, if more than half the class marks it, I'll lose 5% in debate. Micro economic terms like zero sum game that previously meant nothing to me were thrown around to describe international relations. These instances of surprise and endless thought have fueled my interest in economics and its ever present nature. And Pomona, Pacific Basin Institute for Global Trade, interdisciplinary approach and steadfast belief in the liberal arts will no doubt preserve this element of surprise. Oh my gosh. So, you know, in presenting kind of those two, yeah, those two versions of essentially the same prompt, you kind of get one that's really, these are things that I've done right, and that's just kind of where I'm leaving it at. And then the other student is really kind of giving you a sense of that curiosity and instances from classes and otherwise, you know, they have their calculus class, but also debate, which is done as an extracurricular where they're demonstrating this curious thinking and questions that they're noticing in the world around them. And I would say three as a student. I mean, I just think being aware of the messages that you're sending to someone on the other end, around the fact that, like, you haven't had it all figured out yet, or you're still noticed or surprised that you know this student says, will, no doubt, preserve this element of surprise to communicate that, in words, to someone on the other end is so exciting, like and seeing that As an admissions officer, you just kind of really want to advocate for students who you're like, I could just see them coming here and, like, really hitting the ground running, and like, really just taking advantage of those three, those three areas, the courses, the advising, the experiences. And I think, you know, thinking about that as a high school student, it's a lot, you know, I want to be the first to acknowledge that it's a lot of pressure to be, like, hearing messages like this and thinking like, oh, I have to have this burning curiosity inside of me to be admitted. And I think curiosity comes in lots of different ways. I think the big, you know, kind of other thing that I want to mention is that it doesn't have to be like, I have curiosity for I think people think that there's a hierarchy of curiosity where you have to be you have to be curious about nuclear fissure, to be competitive at MIT, and there are brilliant stem applications in entertainment, in all these different fields. And it's okay to be curious about things that you may not see as kind of academic enough. It's the curiosity itself and the being able to describe how it can apply to other things. That's kind of like that golden nugget that is is lacking in a lot of students applications, yeah, and not because. And it's not because they don't have it. It's because they don't think that it's important or worthy enough to share, because the messages are, yeah, it has to be scores and grades. And that's kind of the threshold. And that is a huge I mean, in fact, that is, we do call it the foot in the door to be competitive at these places. But when everyone has that, it's this kind of side of the coin that I think is like, really, it doesn't get enough air time. And I think just kind of normalizing and like voicing to anyone who's tuning in, that just really kind of giving that window and not feeling ashamed, or feeling like the person on the other end is going to be like, you know, for example, I think I did read a lot of students who were really into video games, you know, as their main extracurricular. And, you know, I would say that if I got to an activities list on a student and they had one activity, which was Dungeons and Dragons, it would be a little hard for me to make a case for them in in committee, right? But then in actually talking with one of our lovely CEG colleagues, Ashley, she mentioned to me, and honestly, I was like, Ashley, you need to write a supplement, an example of a supplement for video games, because she talked about all the skills that she has learned from being a gamer. And I was like, this is the first time that anyone has presented the nuance and kind of like, has made me realize that being a gamer is isn't a form of intellectual curiosity, and it's just a matter of, kind of communicating and making the connections for the reader. Because if you just leave it at the surface of, like, I like games because, you know, you know, battling mythical worlds is fun. Sure, that's kind of leaving it on a very baseline place. But, yeah, I think just, I kind of want to, like, you know, if you're tuning in and thinking like, Well, my big curiosity is ants. Guess what? You know, I had a student who applied from an alliance High School in the LA area, which is mostly first generation, low income students. His big thing was that he kind of like, had his own podcast that he was recording all about ants, and, like, different factoids about them, and he had his own ant farm. And I remember the counselor writing in the letter like, Oh, this is, like, he has no followers. Like, there's no like, this is not a podcast that's like, blowing up on Spotify or, you know, because a lot of times students were right, like, I have that has this many followers. And I was, like, so impressed with the student, because the kind of the subtext and kind of like the mess, the hidden figure, you know, beneath the surface, was like, I am really interested in this thing, and I see how studying it and leading into it can actually allow me to build up skills that can transfer to. Lot of things, right? And I don't care if people don't really follow along with it or are as excited about them as me, it's my thing, and I own it proudly. And that is also such an, I think, an empowering message, and that on that vein of knowing myself, that's a big part of your academic journey as a high school student is really, you know, and some schools, I would argue, are better equipped than others at providing space for students to do that, right? Susan is very well versed in Quaker schools as part of her background. I you know hashtag Jesuit educated. So there's a lot of opportunity in Jesuit High Schools for discernment and reflection. But even if you're in a school environment where that's not really kind of the day in, day out, or the way that people around you are thinking, I do encourage you to really kind of take that time, because time is most precious resource that we have on this planet. And if you take the to get to know yourself better, you'll realize that you have a lot of questions that you don't haven't answered about yourself. And if you've been kind of go, go going for so many years and just crossing things off a list, and you know, you're in that architect zone, there's definitely room and space for you, but maybe you'll kind of do that reflection and realize, you know, I'm that I'm 95% architect, but I'm realizing that there's this 5% part of me that I'm curious about, and I want to explore more, and that's great to communicate as well.
Susan Tree 31:12
Well, you know, you never have to feel that you you need to be well rounded. Being well rounded is fun. It's kind of almost the norm, right? But all colleges are looking for potential scholars, yeah, and a lot of 15 to 18 year olds aren't there yet. They may be kind of tapping into what is a superpower, right? But they may or may not be at a level that would be considered scholarly, meaning where that academic ability and knowledge base is spilling over in a more higher level of critical thinking and interdisciplinary thinking. But they're out there. Those teenagers are out there. And when, when I read an application and identify somebody as scholarly, it means that they're studying something for the joy of studying it without attaching a particular lucrative ambition to it, perhaps meaning you don't have to take that interest in ants or, you know, I read a great essay this past year on birds you know, which you know. Again, we're in a in an animal mode. But there, there are lots of things where it captivates a young person and they start taking their interest. And this happened a lot during the pandemic, you know, to a very high level, and suddenly, you know, as an application Reader, I'm saying this gal has PhD written all over her, yep. And for a lot of colleges, those are the things that begin to transcend. You know, a lot of students that we meet with in our work with kids are superb achievers, right? They are superlative. They have used their high school to the max. They've been careful not to drop academic subjects off of their course program prematurely, right, which is a is a bit of a hazard. They have been careful to show that they not are not just developing musculature on one part of their brain. You know that even if they are a potential PhD in whatever area of Ornithology, or, you know, French Romantic literature that they're passionate about, that they were, that they really are looking for their college experience to take them to that that next level. And I think Tom that one of the mistakes that very high achievers can make is closing down parts of their academic program somewhat prematurely. And students will say to me, Well, isn't it more important that I take, you know, six years of science, six credits, full credits of science in high school, given where I know my life is going and I'm taking, I Okay, I'll finish Spanish, you know, two or three. In California, they'll always say, I'll finish the second year of the foreign language, because that's all that's required. Well, you know what? What's required is not necessarily what makes you competitive. Yep, right. And so the first time at a university where I read an application, the first time that an application is read, we're really separating out the kids that are going to go to the next level, you know, in a straight A lots of high level classes, student is going to go to the next level, where then the evaluation is no longer about the GPA, the number of APS, or the whatever, those quantitative things fall away at that level. And. And you know, a lot of highly selective colleges say that 80 to 85% of their applicant pool is strong enough to go to the second and even the third level of evaluation, yep, and then they're only going to admit like 10% of them. So at that point, it sometimes depends on the major, yep, and how much that particular college or university is reading for the major. In some cases, that's tremendous, and in some cases, it's marginally influential, but and then it becomes about the qualitative things that we've been been talking about today. But I would never want a student who has risen to a very high level of academic achievement to think that it wasn't worth it. It's just they have to start thinking a little bit earlier in high school about the value added that they're going to be bringing forward in their application that would help distinguish them if they're an applicant, you know, to a very competitive college, one of my, my favorite movies I happen to watch again recently Hidden Figures, which is, you know, everybody should see, obviously, from a historical and sociological standpoint. But it was making me think a little bit about how, in the aeronautical aerospace years, how there were these people who had these unbelievably tiny specializations that were involved in, you know, that were basically quantitative and predictive and how it was, you know, the one person who could then speak and teach these concepts and these problems that Were who was able to do the problem solving right? And that's where we're at today is, I think, whether your interest is engineering or French literature, it's quantitative, it's qualitative, it's cognitive, it's non cognitive. And the ability to problem solve and teach others and empower others with what you know is very important, and it's what colleges are looking for now. You know, as colleges read applications even for business schools and engineering and these areas where colleges have to read applications for specific admission, for the major right come side to a certain extent, they they're certainly looking for a level of skill, of expertise that lets them know that the student will be able to segue into their academic program at a level where they can be successful, right? There can't be a big gap between high school and then where, whether it's, you know, Purdue or MIT, or whoever begins their first year program, right? And that'll be different to different schools. You know, you can hear, you can hear your university say you have to be calculus ready. But we admit hardly anybody who hasn't already had at least a year of calculus, introductory calculus in high school. Does every high school in the country teach a full year? No, so, but there's this sense of readiness to move into their academic program, right? Yeah. Then, then beyond that, they're looking for that rocket scientists, literally, no joke, yeah, you know, they're looking for the next generation of rocket scientists and students who are going to be bringing particular experiences and strengths into their into their academic program. And that's quantitative. They measure that quantitatively, and they measure that qualitatively, absolutely.
Tom Campbell 38:36
And I mean that point about, you know, colleges identifying the rocket scientists, you know, the the next Katherine Johnson of the world, right? Like, who's gonna, really, you know, disrupt the system when it comes to, you know, advances in society and advances in our world.
Susan Tree 38:51
They're really two things that admissions people will look for in an application, whether it's a professional or liberal arts field, and one is academic alignment. Many universities are flooded right now with biology, psychology, economics and computer science majors, and those are generally offered in the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences. Computer science may also be offered over in the Engineering and Applied Science Division, but there's usually also a liberal arts computer science degree. So in in that case, like my gal, who didn't have much of a background in comp sci, you have to be a little bit more careful of differentiating yourself, because they will look for academic alignment. Academic alignment means high level coursework, whatever that means in your school and in your life, that you're taking this seriously and that you're pushing yourself to you know, a higher level of understanding and achievement that your intellectual curiosity is. Much that you can't wait to take the next the next class. It may even mean doubling up, in some cases, so that you know that's what I mean by academic alignment, is that if you are applying to a professional program, whether it's education nursing, we often don't remember that those are are more or less, you know, anything that ends college with a big national certification exam, right? Has to have clear cut goals and progression toward that exam. These are external exams, right? So there were, I'm probably not even thinking of others that I that I should but certainly in business and in engineering, you've got to look at the college's websites and see if they have particular advice for prospective students, right? It's really, really important, and it can make it or break it for your application. The other kind of alignment, though, Tom that I want to make sure I mentioned, is the non academic alignment. So we're admissions people. We're looking at an application and oh, look, here's a student who's interested in a professional field of study. All the ones we've just mentioned, and probably some that we're forgetting, the transcript is examined for academic alignment and preparation. Then we go to what's called the non academic alignment, which is, well, how is the student kind of follow their their intellectual curiosity into whether it's project based learning or clubs and activities, or, you know, when I read applications now, and I see scouts, and I see how, you know scouts who are pushing that gold level or Eagle level, are shaping their projects, their cumulative projects, service projects, toward an area. You know, I'm building a bridge in the local park, and I am designing the bridge because I am an engineer in the making right where I am creating a iPad curriculum for the senior center and training high school students to serve seniors trying to maximize their understanding and facility with technology. I can think of a million different examples, kids who do robotics, right, who are clearly the next generation of mechanical engineers, but you know what? Maybe they're also the business geeks who are interested in writing marketing and sales plans, because a lot of robotics is the team of of kids who are doing promo and market market planning, right? Right? They'll look to see if you've done volunteer work in an area that somehow grows your your understanding of these things that interest you. Doesn't mean that every ounce of your life has to revolve around this. But you know what, if you're applying for direct entry nursing or direct entry Elementary School certification, programming, the first thing they're going to look for is hands on experience. Yeah, because you they want to see what you've tested out, how you've come to understand this, because they're worried if they give you a spot in their program and you're going to be Ew, this isn't what I thought it was like at all. You'll be gone, yeah, and, and they'll they could have taken somebody else for that spot. That was a better fit. So it's just kind of common sense. But the the non academic alignment piece,
Tom Campbell 43:34
I mean, I think, I think the advice route, or just the term academic alignment, I think it's such a great one to be aware of. And I think it can be so tempting to just think of it in those formal a class with a grade that's what people on the other side want to see. And it makes sense that students and families would think that because college admissions officers ask for a transcript with grades and classes, those capture a general sense of content knowledge that the person who's reading it isn't going to know exactly, but or come through a syllabus of all the classes you've taken in high school and know exactly what each week and what each unit was, but in general, a title of a class and a grade is going to give them a ballpark figure, a message that will communicate a certain level of proficiency in that area, right? So it can be a little more nebulous and outside the box to think of those non academic alignment areas, but especially if you're a student at a high school. So for example, I you know, over the years, I've read lots of applications from students who are in high schools that don't have as many class options the if the population, for example, is primarily students who are the first generation in their family to think about going to college, many of the students in those schools, there are trends and kind of, oftentimes academic paths that really align with job security, and it makes a lot of sense given concerns that them and their family and their community have around investment in education and having that show around investment, right? So many students will be interested in fields like. Engineering, like computer science, like some of the areas where increasingly more job opportunities are projected to continue and to bolster but their school might not have a huge Robotics Club, right? School might not have an AP Computer Science, the intro class, the principals class, whatever it may be, right? So I think if you're a student who's listening, who feels bummed that your school doesn't necessarily have these offerings that you know students in other high schools, have a take a moment to acknowledge that, because that is it sucks. Yeah. Well, so I think what's empowering with what Susan is mentioning, and what I'm really hearing from this is thinking about where to talk about in your application, some of the problem solving skills and areas that demonstrate why you're gravitating towards this particular intellectual curiosity. And it really can be very fluid, and someone on the other end at admissions is more likely to see and acknowledge kind of like the rationale in your head of, Hey, these are some of these experiences that have given me the most joy, or excited me the most, or I felt the most empowered academically and they utilized XYZ skills. That's why I'm interested in taking it to the next level and using what resources you have at your school based on these initial Inklings and dabbling that I've had that maybe aren't necessarily directly correlated, but I can see the translation, and I'm trying to communicate that to you, that's fantastic viability. So I think it really is a one size fits all well, and
Susan Tree 46:30
I think that's a really important point to make, is that students and parents shouldn't then think they have to remove themselves from the competition because they had not been able to have that kind of specialized or enriched high school experience. Well, I learned
Tom Campbell 46:49
something for sure in talking with you. Susan, so thank you so much for being here. My pleasure. Little words for the audience. Before you wrap this up, I was trying to think of a fish metaphor, or maybe, oh no, not
Speaker 1 47:04
intended to be the two that emerged most organically. So ride the wave. Ride the wave, yeah, and let it crash, yep. Just let
Susan Tree 47:14
it and then get up and go out and do it again for
Tom Campbell 47:16
sure. Embrace the tsunami that you're about to about to pummel your future college campus with some knowledge. Yo, yeah, that's right. Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode with myself and Susan. We hope that this information was helpful to you, and as always, you can find the show notes and any resources that we've mentioned at college essay guy.com/podcast Stay tuned for our upcoming episode that we have with Ethan and Amanda Miller on a crash course in paying for college and common affordability myths that should be coming out in the next few weeks. All right, stay curious, intellectually and otherwise, and we'll see you soon. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show transcript
Susan Tree 0:00 Music. Tom Campbell 0:07 Hello College Essay Guy, super fans. Or perhaps this is your first pod, and if so, I'm honored. I'm Tom Campbell, college essay guys, Community Manager, and today's episode with my wonderful colleague Susan tree at admissions. Legend with over 40 years of experience, was actually kind of a happy accident, a Bob Ross moment, if you will. In a way, happy accidents like the curious rabbit holes we stumble upon when we're scrolling through Tiktok YouTube or Wikipedia at 2am are actually quite on brand for today's episode intellectual curiosity and college admissions. What it is why it matters to colleges and how to show it. Susan and I met a few months back to record a podcast all about how a student's transcript and course choices impacts their admission process, and in our own process, we ended up recording over four hours worth of footage with lots of twists and turns. One of those twists was actually the concept of intellectual curiosity. It's a quality that many colleges actively look for in students, and yet it's a little more ambiguous and nuanced compared to choosing courses and for you high school seniors listening in, it's something that can be folded into your application process at any stage, regardless of what your transcript even looks like. On today's episode, you'll learn more about identifying an academic superpower and how to frame it in your college application, how coming across as too complete to colleges can actually make your application less competitive. How to infuse intellectual curiosity into your supplemental essays, and the value of showing academic and non academic alignment for particular popular majors, we hope you enjoy. Susan Tree 1:38 I think what everybody needs to think about is, while I'm in high school, what do I really want to learn more about? What am I excited about? Where do I feel like I have a superpower? Like I was talking to a junior the other day, and he said to me, you know, I'm good at math. I feel like that's kind of it. And I said, is it a superpower? And I said, I want you to reframe what being good at math is, or being a good writer, or being, you know, great at foreign languages, and start realizing that you are gifted, that we've all been gifted with certain abilities, and that it's our job, you know, to be a gardener. And, you know, kind of like we in our little garden, cultivate those gifts, you know, like my young man who just said, I'm good at math. And he said, Well, I said, How do you know you're good at math? Just because you've gotten straight A's and you've made it to, you know, your second year of calculus. Okay, that's you're good at math. But let's go a little deeper than that. And he said, Well, my math teacher last year has asked me to TA to be a teaching assistant in a class next year, and my 10th grade math teacher asked if I would would help in the middle school tutoring program. And I'm really active in the math club, and I've taken on the role of membership chair so I can go out and find a greater diversity of students who would like to be involved in the math competitions. He said, Oh, well, I don't have to even describe because you can guess. He goes, I sit in class every day with girls who are really good at math, but they won't come out to math club. And I need to, I need to figure out what's going on with that, because that's I said, Well, what's your legacy going to be? Because that's what colleges are asking when they read your application, is, what kind of initiative Did you show and what kind of impact have you had? It's like, so you're good at math, and he's like, writing down notes on our zoom call. And I said, because that's what they're going to want to know about you, is, is, what initiative did you take? What did you decide you wanted to accomplish? And what's the impact going to be? What changes are you going to help implement? And then what's going to be there when you leave? And he was, he was astonished, because he went from like, well, blah, I'm good at math. I've always been good at math. Everybody tells me I'm good at math. And then he started really realizing that there was this constellation of descriptors and engagement and activity around that talent, that ability, and I like to call it a superpower, to elevate it in the minds of the students, where they can start seeing it the way that the colleges are going to look for it, right? So whatever kind of high school you attend, there's going to be a way to kind of unpack and elevate those things that that you like to do, that you do well that may be where your best grades are, so that as you write your college applications, colleges can begin to see the energy associated with that that ability, whether. It's you know, writing or languages, or you know, or math or whatever, the energy that's an engagement that is associated with it. So their grades on your transcript right that tells a very particular story to the colleges. But then there's this, and I'll use that word context again, but the level of of energy, imagination, design, thinking, intellectual curiosity, the things that your teachers are actually likely to write about in your letters of recommendation, if you're asking the right teachers right because they've known you, not just as that great student in the classroom, but as that person who thinks that way and behaves that way and engages others in that way totally, Tom Campbell 5:46 I think, like that, that qualitative side of the coin with courses is just not discussed as much, or not thought about as much as a factor in admissions conversations. And it is and and it, I think it's just harder for students and families and counselors, even to to identify, where can that show up, and how can someone on the other end who's reading about this, where can they see that? Because if you have a transcript with a letter grade, you know, of course, some schools write narrative evaluations, and of course, you know, people at admissions are like, oh gosh, we got a transcript from st Ann's or Francis park, or we got a really, got a few more minutes in the day for this. But it really is true that that qualitative side is is such a part of the conversation that I did not have any sense of, you know, when I was applying or didn't start working in admissions. And I think it's so funny that we were talking about the student that you worked with most recently, who was like, I'm good at math, right? Like, it kind of, I've worked with so many students who all kind of asked them, like, what do you like, what are you good at? And it will be a one sentence answer. And then if you ask guiding questions, you know, as a counselor or as a parent, to try and get a little bit more about the why behind why that stimulates you, why you are excited to do it. What do you want it to lead to? Those? Can those aren't always going to be, as a student, being asked those questions, like, I get it like, You're not always going to have an answer. You know, it's like, right off the tip of your tongue. It's funny that you brought up the idea of, like, cultivating your garden, essentially, I think you use that phrase. And in fact, behind the scenes that college Jessica guy, in the past few years, that have been between different retreats and little mini think tanks that we've had on the team, one kind of output that I don't know if it's been talked a lot about in college, Jessica, blogs or materials. So maybe this may be a spoiler alert, but colleges a guy, kind of identified different working styles for students, particularly with their essay writing process and just who they are as learners, and kind of identified three main essentially archetypes or working styles, one being an architect, one being a gardener, and one being an explorer. Wow, funny. It's just funny. They brought up gardener, because I'm like, it actually is, you know, kind of, it's within the CEG universe and way of thinking about the world, which I think is a beautiful thing, but essentially, kind of dividing the three up, you know, you have the architect, which is kind of that is kind of that more methodical, organized, detail oriented, driven schematic. Yes, you like crossing things off your list, and you like getting things done. You like problem solving. You're a thinker and a planner. And, you know, we have, I think, many students, psychologists, a guy, who identify as architects, and it's a great skill to have. You need someone pushing a project along. You need someone who's reigning in more of the Explorer types, who are going out there and thinking about creative ways to do things, and maybe spending a little more time on that than actually accomplishing tasks. So I think, you know, articulating the advantages of being an architect, and also the, you know, we call we use the phrase growing edges. Ecologists a guy. I personally think it's okay to say weakness, you know, because I think we all have weaknesses. It's a part of being human, right? And we have to learn to compensate, yeah, compensate them, or just kind of mention, and it's a big piece. You know, when you read in recommendation letters, when a teacher or counselor identifies a student who has really taken the, I think, mature road and done that, kind of like, you know, stock of, okay, who am I, and what are these areas that I need to grow in, and actually spending time as a high school student thinking about that, and kind of folding that into your academic journey, right? Like, it's huge. And the gardener, you know, to kind of go back to the analogy, it's kind of that, it's kind of the middle because, you know, it's gardening involves a lot of creativity, and it involves a lot of there's an art to kind of putting together a garden, you know, but whether it's a beautiful floral arrangement or a vegetable, you know, actually producing crop to be consumed. But it's that kind of idea of, like, not just methodical architect, but like the methodical spontaneity that can kind of come along with having to pivot and and be flexible, but it is kind of like, I guess, that hybrid territory of these, right? And there's definitely students who, really, you know, will find them, and they're like, you know, the rise of kids who want to double major, right? Like, that's a huge, I think, example of this. And then the Explorer, is that spontaneous, that spontaneous learner, right? Oh, I love that driven. You're driven by passions. You're driven by being independent, inquisitive questions, dreaming, free thinking. It's that kind of, you know, quintessential, especially for parents and counselors tuning in that like, you know, typical liberal arts musing on the quad and sitting around and talking about Kant or Descartes or philosophy or whatnot. You know, that ended the spectrum of the human experience. And I think, you know, for us high school students, or anyone supporting a high school student with, you know, know thyself, I think that I don't know if that's Kant or Descartes or someone else, some philosopher, but that that idea of kind of like really taking stock of who you are and the type of learning you are, and not just understanding that. And of course, there's, I'm sure, so many quizzes, personalities, quests, I think of things like strengths, strengths quest is something that I took when I was in college to kind of help me identify my strengths a little more. I just have a little more of a framework of who you are. I'm a huge fan of things like Myers, Briggs and Enneagram, and I do what you are. Yeah, absolutely. And I think what can be tempting is to kind of try and argue, I'm an architect, but I'm just like, the other thing, in this particular instance, you can kind of own who you are. And actually, colleges are looking for students. They, for example, everyone's like, Oh, you have to be a leader to be admitted to colleges. And I actually, I actually think it's been so over hyped. And I see people like clamoring for titles, really, not actual outputs of leadership or initiatives that actually can be defined as leadership. But anyway, there's, I'd say, such an emphasis on kind of like. And I remember one time, like, I went to a NACA presentation that was about schools that are like, Oh, I'm a big school, but we pick it small by doing this, or I'm a small school, but we make it big by doing this. And it's like, just own what you are and who you are. And colleges want kids who are architects, gardeners and explorers, right? You may think, okay, the MITs and the produce of the world and Cal techs, they're gonna want architects, because that's kind of that right, right thing. But kind of to your point, Susan, when you brought up before about, I think something that I really noticed when I worked at Pomona there was this amazing research conference, right? That, or Summer Research Symposium, essentially, where students would put up posters from their summer research projects along the quad, and it was, you know, beautiful sunny day in the fall, and it's the beginning of the year, and you get to talk with students about something that they've worked several months on with a professor, or Wow, outside company. And what I noticed was, and I've mentioned this on other podcasts and videos, you know, for for College Essay Guy, but what I noticed was, like, the kids who had that kind of like, for me, I stand up and I go to the poster and I see, like, equations and molecules and like, Yeah, I'm having like, terrible flashbacks to my own high school experience where, like, those were not my gig. Never have been never will be okay. And I'm like, Okay, I'm not gonna understand anything the student is saying. And to my surprise, they were able to, and because I think they had that training and they knew, yeah. I mean, that's a huge benefit to the liberal arts, I think absolutely how to articulate their complex, jargony, you know world to an audience that may be unfamiliar. And I think that that's actually something that is a huge life skill that started. I think more about that as a high school student is great, but also it's okay to own if your main contribution to a project or a problem is that architect side that is needed to make our world the functioning place that it is right. And there's also space for gardeners and there's still space for explorers, even with this changing landscape of AI and that changing, you know, career paths where people there is going to be room and space for anyone who falls into any of those three archetypes. And even if you don't, you know you, I think being able to articulate the skills, qualities, values and interests, this is kind of getting back to C, E, G, 101, absolutely. That's kind of our byline of like, the goal of you as a high school student is to communicate those skills, qualities, values and interests. And when it comes to your academic background and things that you're curious about your intellectual curiosities, that is something that being able to kind of own what you contribute and visualize and provide anecdotes from projects you've worked on in school or things you've done outside that are self directed learning projects. Sometimes students don't think, for example, that like, you know, there's no relationship between my academic path and my major and what I want to study, and the things that I'm binging on my phone, or tiktoks that I'm watching, or Wikipedia rabbit holes or random documentaries I'm watching on Netflix at night in bed on my phone. And those two things are not mutually exclusive. There is actually a lot of overlap there, and communicating the things that you are curious about to someone on the other end at admissions is a very wise call, I would say, because again, your grades and the courses that you've chosen tell only half the story, but kind of communicating the type of learner that you are and what you can contribute to a project or a classroom space is something that will be done in some degree by your school through recommendation letters, but it's also important for. You to think about articulating that in your own words through spaces in the application, whether that's something absolutely personal statement. Addition, never Susan Tree 15:07 feel that coming across as a finished product is a good idea. And I think some students view their application almost like a presentation at a science fair, or poster like that poster, you fair, you were referring to where, okay, they're here, the experiment is over. I have a I have a hypothesis about who I am. I have experimentation, I have data, I have an analysis and a conclusion. And honestly, that's how a lot of kids present the application, where, really it's some of that holds true. But remember, the the end of scientific method is is not the conclusion, it's the questions that come next, the next phase of whatever it is you need to learn. And that, I love that model for the application, because a lot of kids kind of make their applications feel like leading to this grand conclusion, right? And really, what the College wants to know is what's next. And it's not just the name of the major that you've chosen. It's what we've been talking about, is that next great adventure in in learning and self discovery. And sure, it's, you know, I'm working with another student right now who, when our questionnaire asked him about his what he was looking forward to studying in college, and kind of his own sense of where things are going, investment banking. And in fact, it was even more specific than that, private equity management. And like, I'm looking at a 17 year old, yeah, smart 17 year old who clearly had been influenced by some adults, sure, and maybe by the finance club at his high school. Uh huh, right. But my whole first meeting with him was backtracking away from that level of specificity, which was happy it was meant to impress me. Yep, and that's very transparent when you read applications, is, you know, where, where's the authenticity in this? What are, what are the stepping stones the students took to get to that conclusion, whether that conclusion is private equity and investing in being a partner in a firm, yep, literally, that's where I met this young man. Or whether it's, it's not just becoming getting to medical school, it's becoming a, you know, a pediatric neurosurgeon, you know, where there seems to be a lot of intermediate steps that have been left over, of coming across as special or really advanced, and the best thing a student can do is come across as the person they are in this application process. And the the colleges call it authenticity, but that sometimes is, you know, what does that mean? It's the being in touch with with who you are, what you know about yourself, what you wake up in the morning excited to do you know, whether it's the Eagle Scout project, you know where you're you're cleaning up the little mini exercise course behind the senior center so that more seniors can be outside. And do you know, we've all seen things like, what you know? What do you what do you wake up excited to do? Is it a class you're taking? Awesome? Is it something where you're applying skills from a class, but you are then using those in a way where you're, you know, cultivating someone else's garden to in that moment, you know you're helping do that, and yes, you want to take the long, a long look in your application about what the future might hold, because that's how you're picking your college. You're seeing your college as giving you courses, opportunities. Tom Campbell 19:17 Yeah, and I think something that you brought up, that I think is such a valuable piece of advice is the idea around like completeness, and the pressure that I think many students feel to present a complete version of themselves, especially, you know, and it's a little, it's a little bit of like a, you know, contradiction, which, you know, admissions is riddled with those. So if this is the first time you're gonna get contradicted in admissions, get ready, because you're about to you're on for a wild ride, right? But it is this kind of interesting bottlenecking, right? Of many colleges increasingly moving towards identifying and prioritizing students who do have a little more of a defined path within their journey, right? That is something that I think you're seeing, especially at these more selective colleges. To. Students who are going to be able to fill all the different departments and programs that they have, tenured faculty who teach in these departments, right, who they're not really going anywhere. And unlike, you know, maybe some less, less selective schools, who are making business related decisions and dissolving departments. You know, we were just talking earlier about, you know, Ithaca College, for example, and kind of restructuring their academic approach to be more in line with the needs of the market, right? It's these more selective schools actually don't really need to cater to the market. Need quite as much they they will choose who they want based on the buckets that they need to fill. And so there is, you know, increasingly, right? You know, I think a sense of, like, okay, colleges want kind of this person who has everything figured out and has a path ahead, and they're goal oriented. And oftentimes it's because, you know, students have been fed messages from the beginning of time. And it could be influenced by lots of different places, right? It could be influenced by their school environment. It could be influenced by home. And it's not, you know, if you're parenting, like, how dare you COVID. I'm not saying that to, you know, be critical. It's just a reality of being a sponge as a young person and just absorbing the influences that are around you. So when you're told that kind of being, this complete package is advantageous, and of course, if you're you know, a parent or someone who's working in an industry where you're reading resumes and you realize, you know, oh, they scan, you know, words on and experiences on resumes, and you want someone who has this and that and can just be plugged right into the slot for this job and do it fine without minimal effort or direction and training from the, you know, from the company, right? Many people who kind of come into the admissions process, I think, kind of take that mentality of, like, evaluation of job candidates with them. Yes, you would argue right that you do want someone who's a little more complete and fully fleshed out and has directly paralleled experiences to, you know, the task at hand, but on the topic of students and feeling this pressure to be complete, I would say that voicing the questions that you still have not answered yet, and the questions that are still running through your mind or that you learn from a class that you took, or you heard it on a podcast you listened to, or a documentary you watched, like voicing those to someone at admissions is so much more powerful than I think you realize, because it shows that you are excited to go forward to this next stage In your learning journey after high school, right? And start to think more critically with more resources. Like, what were the three things you mentioned? Courses, advising, and there's a third look, experiences, experiences, leveraging those three things colleges want to know that you are going to take advantage of those because, hey, those are the students that end up making it in press releases and articles and are like, hey, look how great our college or university is. We have these kids who are going out and doing these things to kind of come in complete is not really giving enough to someone. On the other end to be like, Oh, there's more to be done here, right? There's more to be discovered. And I actually want to read two brief these are kind of like excerpts of old supplements from Pomona that are meant to kind of give you an illustration and kind of a contrast for the sake of education, you know, education around the difference between being that complete oriented student and that kind of more questioning student, or noticing questions or instances that still drive that curiosity. Okay? So we have the more complete version, which is, I've explored my intended area of study, business through FBLA, Future Business Leaders of America. Many of you tuning in? Maybe have that in your own high school. You may be taking advantage of it, and that's great, right? You know, in this club, I network with students from other schools, create sample business plans and use social media to promote the chapter. My senior project involves creating mixed media marketing strategies for a local pet shop and implementing a social media marketing campaign I launched on augment my interest in business with the academic foundation that only a liberal arts college like Pomona can provide, I know that Pomona is economics and social sciences courses will give me the fundamental tools I will need for a future in business. So that that's great, there's a degree of I've done a lot of things here, and it's great to kind of give credit to those areas, but it's a little you don't have as much of a sense of what you want to do next, or what's still you're still curious about from that answer. It's a total, it's a fine answer, right? This is not me saying, like, if you are writing something like this, there's no chance you can be admitted to a select school. That's not the reality. But kind of zooming back a little bit, this is version B, or kind of like another student who's also applying to the economics program, or are interested in the economics major at Pomona, and this is their response to the prompt. Basically, the prompt is basically like, you know, tell us about your academic interests or experiences and how they're a good fit for Pomona. Questions of rationality and economic stability have influenced my understanding of politics, the likelihood of the United States pressing the nuclear button. Apparently, if the economy sinks, we're estimating global interdependence and its influence in parentheses. It can be it can prevent war, since much of Asia and the US are trade bound. In my calculus class, I was struck with an economic space problem. Check the box to receive an additional 3% On my quiz grade, if more than half the class marks it, I'll lose 5% in debate. Micro economic terms like zero sum game that previously meant nothing to me were thrown around to describe international relations. These instances of surprise and endless thought have fueled my interest in economics and its ever present nature. And Pomona, Pacific Basin Institute for Global Trade, interdisciplinary approach and steadfast belief in the liberal arts will no doubt preserve this element of surprise. Oh my gosh. So, you know, in presenting kind of those two, yeah, those two versions of essentially the same prompt, you kind of get one that's really, these are things that I've done right, and that's just kind of where I'm leaving it at. And then the other student is really kind of giving you a sense of that curiosity and instances from classes and otherwise, you know, they have their calculus class, but also debate, which is done as an extracurricular where they're demonstrating this curious thinking and questions that they're noticing in the world around them. And I would say three as a student. I mean, I just think being aware of the messages that you're sending to someone on the other end, around the fact that, like, you haven't had it all figured out yet, or you're still noticed or surprised that you know this student says, will, no doubt, preserve this element of surprise to communicate that, in words, to someone on the other end is so exciting, like and seeing that As an admissions officer, you just kind of really want to advocate for students who you're like, I could just see them coming here and, like, really hitting the ground running, and like, really just taking advantage of those three, those three areas, the courses, the advising, the experiences. And I think, you know, thinking about that as a high school student, it's a lot, you know, I want to be the first to acknowledge that it's a lot of pressure to be, like, hearing messages like this and thinking like, oh, I have to have this burning curiosity inside of me to be admitted. And I think curiosity comes in lots of different ways. I think the big, you know, kind of other thing that I want to mention is that it doesn't have to be like, I have curiosity for I think people think that there's a hierarchy of curiosity where you have to be you have to be curious about nuclear fissure, to be competitive at MIT, and there are brilliant stem applications in entertainment, in all these different fields. And it's okay to be curious about things that you may not see as kind of academic enough. It's the curiosity itself and the being able to describe how it can apply to other things. That's kind of like that golden nugget that is is lacking in a lot of students applications, yeah, and not because. And it's not because they don't have it. It's because they don't think that it's important or worthy enough to share, because the messages are, yeah, it has to be scores and grades. And that's kind of the threshold. And that is a huge I mean, in fact, that is, we do call it the foot in the door to be competitive at these places. But when everyone has that, it's this kind of side of the coin that I think is like, really, it doesn't get enough air time. And I think just kind of normalizing and like voicing to anyone who's tuning in, that just really kind of giving that window and not feeling ashamed, or feeling like the person on the other end is going to be like, you know, for example, I think I did read a lot of students who were really into video games, you know, as their main extracurricular. And, you know, I would say that if I got to an activities list on a student and they had one activity, which was Dungeons and Dragons, it would be a little hard for me to make a case for them in in committee, right? But then in actually talking with one of our lovely CEG colleagues, Ashley, she mentioned to me, and honestly, I was like, Ashley, you need to write a supplement, an example of a supplement for video games, because she talked about all the skills that she has learned from being a gamer. And I was like, this is the first time that anyone has presented the nuance and kind of like, has made me realize that being a gamer is isn't a form of intellectual curiosity, and it's just a matter of, kind of communicating and making the connections for the reader. Because if you just leave it at the surface of, like, I like games because, you know, you know, battling mythical worlds is fun. Sure, that's kind of leaving it on a very baseline place. But, yeah, I think just, I kind of want to, like, you know, if you're tuning in and thinking like, Well, my big curiosity is ants. Guess what? You know, I had a student who applied from an alliance High School in the LA area, which is mostly first generation, low income students. His big thing was that he kind of like, had his own podcast that he was recording all about ants, and, like, different factoids about them, and he had his own ant farm. And I remember the counselor writing in the letter like, Oh, this is, like, he has no followers. Like, there's no like, this is not a podcast that's like, blowing up on Spotify or, you know, because a lot of times students were right, like, I have that has this many followers. And I was, like, so impressed with the student, because the kind of the subtext and kind of like the mess, the hidden figure, you know, beneath the surface, was like, I am really interested in this thing, and I see how studying it and leading into it can actually allow me to build up skills that can transfer to. Lot of things, right? And I don't care if people don't really follow along with it or are as excited about them as me, it's my thing, and I own it proudly. And that is also such an, I think, an empowering message, and that on that vein of knowing myself, that's a big part of your academic journey as a high school student is really, you know, and some schools, I would argue, are better equipped than others at providing space for students to do that, right? Susan is very well versed in Quaker schools as part of her background. I you know hashtag Jesuit educated. So there's a lot of opportunity in Jesuit High Schools for discernment and reflection. But even if you're in a school environment where that's not really kind of the day in, day out, or the way that people around you are thinking, I do encourage you to really kind of take that time, because time is most precious resource that we have on this planet. And if you take the to get to know yourself better, you'll realize that you have a lot of questions that you don't haven't answered about yourself. And if you've been kind of go, go going for so many years and just crossing things off a list, and you know, you're in that architect zone, there's definitely room and space for you, but maybe you'll kind of do that reflection and realize, you know, I'm that I'm 95% architect, but I'm realizing that there's this 5% part of me that I'm curious about, and I want to explore more, and that's great to communicate as well. Susan Tree 31:12 Well, you know, you never have to feel that you you need to be well rounded. Being well rounded is fun. It's kind of almost the norm, right? But all colleges are looking for potential scholars, yeah, and a lot of 15 to 18 year olds aren't there yet. They may be kind of tapping into what is a superpower, right? But they may or may not be at a level that would be considered scholarly, meaning where that academic ability and knowledge base is spilling over in a more higher level of critical thinking and interdisciplinary thinking. But they're out there. Those teenagers are out there. And when, when I read an application and identify somebody as scholarly, it means that they're studying something for the joy of studying it without attaching a particular lucrative ambition to it, perhaps meaning you don't have to take that interest in ants or, you know, I read a great essay this past year on birds you know, which you know. Again, we're in a in an animal mode. But there, there are lots of things where it captivates a young person and they start taking their interest. And this happened a lot during the pandemic, you know, to a very high level, and suddenly, you know, as an application Reader, I'm saying this gal has PhD written all over her, yep. And for a lot of colleges, those are the things that begin to transcend. You know, a lot of students that we meet with in our work with kids are superb achievers, right? They are superlative. They have used their high school to the max. They've been careful not to drop academic subjects off of their course program prematurely, right, which is a is a bit of a hazard. They have been careful to show that they not are not just developing musculature on one part of their brain. You know that even if they are a potential PhD in whatever area of Ornithology, or, you know, French Romantic literature that they're passionate about, that they were, that they really are looking for their college experience to take them to that that next level. And I think Tom that one of the mistakes that very high achievers can make is closing down parts of their academic program somewhat prematurely. And students will say to me, Well, isn't it more important that I take, you know, six years of science, six credits, full credits of science in high school, given where I know my life is going and I'm taking, I Okay, I'll finish Spanish, you know, two or three. In California, they'll always say, I'll finish the second year of the foreign language, because that's all that's required. Well, you know what? What's required is not necessarily what makes you competitive. Yep, right. And so the first time at a university where I read an application, the first time that an application is read, we're really separating out the kids that are going to go to the next level, you know, in a straight A lots of high level classes, student is going to go to the next level, where then the evaluation is no longer about the GPA, the number of APS, or the whatever, those quantitative things fall away at that level. And. And you know, a lot of highly selective colleges say that 80 to 85% of their applicant pool is strong enough to go to the second and even the third level of evaluation, yep, and then they're only going to admit like 10% of them. So at that point, it sometimes depends on the major, yep, and how much that particular college or university is reading for the major. In some cases, that's tremendous, and in some cases, it's marginally influential, but and then it becomes about the qualitative things that we've been been talking about today. But I would never want a student who has risen to a very high level of academic achievement to think that it wasn't worth it. It's just they have to start thinking a little bit earlier in high school about the value added that they're going to be bringing forward in their application that would help distinguish them if they're an applicant, you know, to a very competitive college, one of my, my favorite movies I happen to watch again recently Hidden Figures, which is, you know, everybody should see, obviously, from a historical and sociological standpoint. But it was making me think a little bit about how, in the aeronautical aerospace years, how there were these people who had these unbelievably tiny specializations that were involved in, you know, that were basically quantitative and predictive and how it was, you know, the one person who could then speak and teach these concepts and these problems that Were who was able to do the problem solving right? And that's where we're at today is, I think, whether your interest is engineering or French literature, it's quantitative, it's qualitative, it's cognitive, it's non cognitive. And the ability to problem solve and teach others and empower others with what you know is very important, and it's what colleges are looking for now. You know, as colleges read applications even for business schools and engineering and these areas where colleges have to read applications for specific admission, for the major right come side to a certain extent, they they're certainly looking for a level of skill, of expertise that lets them know that the student will be able to segue into their academic program at a level where they can be successful, right? There can't be a big gap between high school and then where, whether it's, you know, Purdue or MIT, or whoever begins their first year program, right? And that'll be different to different schools. You know, you can hear, you can hear your university say you have to be calculus ready. But we admit hardly anybody who hasn't already had at least a year of calculus, introductory calculus in high school. Does every high school in the country teach a full year? No, so, but there's this sense of readiness to move into their academic program, right? Yeah. Then, then beyond that, they're looking for that rocket scientists, literally, no joke, yeah, you know, they're looking for the next generation of rocket scientists and students who are going to be bringing particular experiences and strengths into their into their academic program. And that's quantitative. They measure that quantitatively, and they measure that qualitatively, absolutely. Tom Campbell 38:36 And I mean that point about, you know, colleges identifying the rocket scientists, you know, the the next Katherine Johnson of the world, right? Like, who's gonna, really, you know, disrupt the system when it comes to, you know, advances in society and advances in our world. Susan Tree 38:51 They're really two things that admissions people will look for in an application, whether it's a professional or liberal arts field, and one is academic alignment. Many universities are flooded right now with biology, psychology, economics and computer science majors, and those are generally offered in the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences. Computer science may also be offered over in the Engineering and Applied Science Division, but there's usually also a liberal arts computer science degree. So in in that case, like my gal, who didn't have much of a background in comp sci, you have to be a little bit more careful of differentiating yourself, because they will look for academic alignment. Academic alignment means high level coursework, whatever that means in your school and in your life, that you're taking this seriously and that you're pushing yourself to you know, a higher level of understanding and achievement that your intellectual curiosity is. Much that you can't wait to take the next the next class. It may even mean doubling up, in some cases, so that you know that's what I mean by academic alignment, is that if you are applying to a professional program, whether it's education nursing, we often don't remember that those are are more or less, you know, anything that ends college with a big national certification exam, right? Has to have clear cut goals and progression toward that exam. These are external exams, right? So there were, I'm probably not even thinking of others that I that I should but certainly in business and in engineering, you've got to look at the college's websites and see if they have particular advice for prospective students, right? It's really, really important, and it can make it or break it for your application. The other kind of alignment, though, Tom that I want to make sure I mentioned, is the non academic alignment. So we're admissions people. We're looking at an application and oh, look, here's a student who's interested in a professional field of study. All the ones we've just mentioned, and probably some that we're forgetting, the transcript is examined for academic alignment and preparation. Then we go to what's called the non academic alignment, which is, well, how is the student kind of follow their their intellectual curiosity into whether it's project based learning or clubs and activities, or, you know, when I read applications now, and I see scouts, and I see how, you know scouts who are pushing that gold level or Eagle level, are shaping their projects, their cumulative projects, service projects, toward an area. You know, I'm building a bridge in the local park, and I am designing the bridge because I am an engineer in the making right where I am creating a iPad curriculum for the senior center and training high school students to serve seniors trying to maximize their understanding and facility with technology. I can think of a million different examples, kids who do robotics, right, who are clearly the next generation of mechanical engineers, but you know what? Maybe they're also the business geeks who are interested in writing marketing and sales plans, because a lot of robotics is the team of of kids who are doing promo and market market planning, right? Right? They'll look to see if you've done volunteer work in an area that somehow grows your your understanding of these things that interest you. Doesn't mean that every ounce of your life has to revolve around this. But you know what, if you're applying for direct entry nursing or direct entry Elementary School certification, programming, the first thing they're going to look for is hands on experience. Yeah, because you they want to see what you've tested out, how you've come to understand this, because they're worried if they give you a spot in their program and you're going to be Ew, this isn't what I thought it was like at all. You'll be gone, yeah, and, and they'll they could have taken somebody else for that spot. That was a better fit. So it's just kind of common sense. But the the non academic alignment piece, Tom Campbell 43:34 I mean, I think, I think the advice route, or just the term academic alignment, I think it's such a great one to be aware of. And I think it can be so tempting to just think of it in those formal a class with a grade that's what people on the other side want to see. And it makes sense that students and families would think that because college admissions officers ask for a transcript with grades and classes, those capture a general sense of content knowledge that the person who's reading it isn't going to know exactly, but or come through a syllabus of all the classes you've taken in high school and know exactly what each week and what each unit was, but in general, a title of a class and a grade is going to give them a ballpark figure, a message that will communicate a certain level of proficiency in that area, right? So it can be a little more nebulous and outside the box to think of those non academic alignment areas, but especially if you're a student at a high school. So for example, I you know, over the years, I've read lots of applications from students who are in high schools that don't have as many class options the if the population, for example, is primarily students who are the first generation in their family to think about going to college, many of the students in those schools, there are trends and kind of, oftentimes academic paths that really align with job security, and it makes a lot of sense given concerns that them and their family and their community have around investment in education and having that show around investment, right? So many students will be interested in fields like. Engineering, like computer science, like some of the areas where increasingly more job opportunities are projected to continue and to bolster but their school might not have a huge Robotics Club, right? School might not have an AP Computer Science, the intro class, the principals class, whatever it may be, right? So I think if you're a student who's listening, who feels bummed that your school doesn't necessarily have these offerings that you know students in other high schools, have a take a moment to acknowledge that, because that is it sucks. Yeah. Well, so I think what's empowering with what Susan is mentioning, and what I'm really hearing from this is thinking about where to talk about in your application, some of the problem solving skills and areas that demonstrate why you're gravitating towards this particular intellectual curiosity. And it really can be very fluid, and someone on the other end at admissions is more likely to see and acknowledge kind of like the rationale in your head of, Hey, these are some of these experiences that have given me the most joy, or excited me the most, or I felt the most empowered academically and they utilized XYZ skills. That's why I'm interested in taking it to the next level and using what resources you have at your school based on these initial Inklings and dabbling that I've had that maybe aren't necessarily directly correlated, but I can see the translation, and I'm trying to communicate that to you, that's fantastic viability. So I think it really is a one size fits all well, and Susan Tree 46:30 I think that's a really important point to make, is that students and parents shouldn't then think they have to remove themselves from the competition because they had not been able to have that kind of specialized or enriched high school experience. Well, I learned Tom Campbell 46:49 something for sure in talking with you. Susan, so thank you so much for being here. My pleasure. Little words for the audience. Before you wrap this up, I was trying to think of a fish metaphor, or maybe, oh no, not Speaker 1 47:04 intended to be the two that emerged most organically. So ride the wave. Ride the wave, yeah, and let it crash, yep. Just let Susan Tree 47:14 it and then get up and go out and do it again for Tom Campbell 47:16 sure. Embrace the tsunami that you're about to about to pummel your future college campus with some knowledge. Yo, yeah, that's right. Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode with myself and Susan. We hope that this information was helpful to you, and as always, you can find the show notes and any resources that we've mentioned at college essay guy.com/podcast Stay tuned for our upcoming episode that we have with Ethan and Amanda Miller on a crash course in paying for college and common affordability myths that should be coming out in the next few weeks. All right, stay curious, intellectually and otherwise, and we'll see you soon. You. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
