Show Notes
On today’s episode, Tom Campbell (CEG’s Community Manager) and Nitzya Cuevas-Macias (Director of College Programs at Downtown College Prep) cover:
How do students decide which classes to take—and what questions should they ask when deciding?
Key recommendations for selecting English, math, science, social studies, language, and elective courses
The most frequently asked questions we get asked about courses and grades
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias was a first-gen college student at UC Berkeley where she studied History and Legal Studies, and earned her Master’s in Mexican American Studies from San José State. She’s been working in education for 16 years where the majority of her time has been in college access and success, in the CBO, non-profit world, k-12 public and charter, and community college. Currently, she is the Director of College Programs at Downtown College Prep, a free public charter in San José, CA and serves as a board member of the Western Association for College Admission Counseling.
We hope you enjoy!
Play-by-Play
2:21 – Introductions
6:02 – What are key things to keep in mind when planning your high school experience?
10:21 – Subject area recommendations
11:40 – English
16:04 – Math
21:34 – Science
28:02 – Social Studies
31:11 – Languages
33:06 – Visual/Performing Arts
36:17 – Electives
36:39 – Rapid-fire FAQs about grades
37:43 How do colleges evaluate my course grades and transcript?
38:22 – Is it important to only get Straight-As to have a chance?
40:29 – How do colleges evaluate my GPA?
42:05 – How can students balance a high GPA with challenging courses?
44:28 – Should students increase their rigor every year?
45:23 – Is it a good idea to take additional summer or online courses?
49:43 – How important is class rank?
51:19 – Should I pick Honors, AP, IB, or Dual Enrollment?
54:17 – Are AP and IB scores important if my school doesn’t offer AP courses?
57:28 – How do I know what classes to take if I don’t know what I want to study or where I want to go to college?
59:59 – Wrap up / closing thoughts
Resources
Episode 403: AP, IB, Honors, Oh My!: How Admissions Officers View Your High School Courses, Rigor, and School Context – Susan Tree
Episode 213: Self-Directed Learning (Why You Can Quit HS & Be Okay)
Show transcript
Tom Campbell 0:08
Tom, Hi friends. Tom Campbell here, former Pomona and Holy Cross admissions officer turned Community Manager at college. Sa guy and a co host of the podcast. Today, we're diving into part two of our what colleges want series, a deep dive into the factors colleges consider most important as determined by the most recent State of college admission report released by NACAC or the National Association for College Admission Counseling. Today, we're talking about number one and number two, most important factors, and they've long been number one and number two. What do colleges consider most important? I'll tell you, grades known to many as your GPA and your course rigor, in other words, how you challenge yourself based on the academic opportunities available to you? On today's episode, I sat down with longtime college counselor Nitz Cuevas Macias to cover how do students decide what classes to take and what questions should they ask themselves when deciding tips and recommendations around selecting courses in various academic subjects, including English, math, science, social studies, languages and elective courses. And we'll wrap things up with the top 10 most frequently asked questions myself and its ya receive around courses, grades and everything in between. For a deeper discussion on things like identifying your academic superpower, infusing intellectual curiosity into your supplemental essays and how college admission officers view your high school courses in rigor. Check out episodes 403 and 413, with myself and college essay guy's very own legendary college counselor, Susan tree, but right now, meet our special guest Nitz Cuevas. Macias nitzia is a first gen college student who graduated from the University of California, Berkeley in California, Berkeley, where she studied history and legal studies, and her master's in Mexican American studies from San Jose State. She's been working in education for 16 years, where the majority of her time has been in college access and success in the CBO non profit world, K through 12 public and charter and community college side of the desk. Currently, she's the director of college programs at downtown college prep, a free public charter school in San Jose, California, and serves as a board member of the Western Association for college admission counseling. We hope you enjoy our conversation.
Nitz, so awesome to have you today on the college essay podcast, and it's also awesome to be twinning with you a little bit. People can't see this because it's audio, but we are both rocking some matching brow fits. Is what I've been told. That's called gray outfit. I don't know if that term is I heard that term before, no, but we're here matching. We're here. We're doing it match and gray sweatshirts, but we're gonna bring some color and some dynamism to the exciting topic that I'm sure you've been just craving for months, weeks, years now of your life, dear audience, which is course selection, but I kind of wanted just to see you know before we dive into some of the core content, you know why this topic is Something that you find to be important from your own personal experience, you know, in your role as a college counselor now, kind of, what are some of the big things that you want people to know? The big, kind of, like, overarching takeaway of, like, you know why? I guess pushing yourself academically and committing to that journey is something that's worthwhile.
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 3:18
Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's exciting to share experience and knowledge. I, as you mentioned, I grew up as a, you know, first gen college student, but my parents really, really instilled this value and love and appreciation for education, and so my parents were very active. I have two younger brothers, so the three of us were really pushed academically, and so academics in college were never a question. It was just making sure we were prepared for that next step in a way that that we were also being prepared for life. So my parents pushed me so hard and quick example, I ended up taking AP Calculus, a B as a sophomore in my high school. Okay, it was, it was great. And I was like, Oh, this. I'm done with I'm done with math. And one of the things I think you'll hear throughout my my time with you today is my, my mantra, little Yes, and only because it expands a lot of the work that we do. And so in my career, I've been working predominantly with low income, first generation families, specifically with Latino families and community. And I think it's important for all of our students and families to understand what it takes and can take in a way that's also healthy and manageable, right? A lot of stress that our students are going through a lot of changes in our field that we're seeing and facing, and so, yeah, I think it's just important for us to keep an eye and a pin on what's happening at our high school superpower students for their next step and quick shout out to the parents for helping their kids. This value education and going through it, because I remember those, those fights, the slamming the doors that, you know what? I can't do this anymore. By looking back, I really appreciate all the work and support my parents did for my brothers and I to get us to where we're at right now.
Tom Campbell 5:16
Yeah, hey, huge shout out to that, that parental influence. Because I know if you're a parent tuning in and you're like, hey, my kid is sick of me nagging them about which courses to take. Do know that you know, both Niti and I can definitely attest to parental influence being pretty significant. For me. It was, it was less about being pushed to take certain courses, but just it was the overall kind of culture of valuing education. My dad does nonprofit work in Haiti specifically, kind of helping build schools for free for communities there and my mom all her life, starting from the beginning of her career, elementary school teacher in inner city school Springfield. So definitely the transformative power of education, and it's something that I know, you know, both of us in our conversations before this podcast, definitely really appreciate. So thanks for being here. I'm so glad.
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 6:03
Yeah, one of the one of the biggest messages that we give students and families is college success begins with high school success, right? So one, we want to make sure we're setting that tone, because we want to make sure that students and parents understand it doesn't start 11th grade. It doesn't start 12th grade. It starts now, and sometimes even sooner than that. And so with that is, how are you adjusting to high school? Right? What's new, what's different? More often you're getting access to more classes, more courses with different rigor levels, right? What does that mean? Time management, as you're learning to increase your rigor in courses, or exploring interests, like I want to do that sewing club, or I want to try out for the volleyball team. Or, you know what this summer I want to do? You know, a Summer Reading Club, for example. How are you learning to manage your different responsibilities, along with enjoying, still enjoying to be a teenager, because I think there's value in that as well be learning how to be a little bit more independent, right? So what do what? How are you studying at home? Are you setting out time to study 30 minutes? Take a break for five don't know the 30 minutes, right? So those are the things I think for there as a ninth grader, you're dipping your toes into high school and trying to understand what works for you, what are you liking? How you feel uncomfortable in this new space and almost it's like anything that you didn't try in middle school or that you couldn't do in middle school, try it now, right? Explore. Have fun with it, even if you do join a club and you don't like it, I think one of the things that's okay, right? It's perfectly normal to go into me New York, this is not what I thought it would be. I think the biggest piece that's important, at least from the cause of college cancer, is like, why, why didn't you like it? Right? Being able to reflect on on that process is just as important as you knowing why you like, you know, to be part of the chess club. And so start paying attention to, you know, what? What are the upper class men doing? What are the juniors doing? What are the sophomores doing? What's available at my school? Right? You're almost like, figuring it out. And there's so much happening freshman year that it's okay to take your time, just be aware of what's happening. Totally
Tom Campbell 8:24
that's great. Great. Step one is just that awareness of like, okay, what am I stepping into in high school? Like, courses and otherwise, like, what is this new landscape that's available to me with all this choice and independence, more than I'm used to, and that will increase when you get to college too. It's each time there's a new leveling up new software update the expectations that you, you know, have on yourself, of clarity of how you want to spend your time, the communities you want to be a part, of the curiosities you want to lean into, and starting in ninth grade, like really wrestling with those why questions I know we talked a lot about, that is, is a huge step. Number one, just on a macro level, and I think one big piece, I guess, reflection question that I would put out there for those rising 11 and then 12th graders is, you know, how can I balance really fostering my own curiosities and doing, you know, what my counselors encouraging me to to lean into the things that I'm Interested in, while still ensuring that I have as many like on the pragmatic end of the coin, that I still have the options that excite me and that give me the opportunities that I'm craving. Right? So that's sometimes there are going to be situations where, for example, the high school that I used to work at very and I know you talked about this as well, increasingly, a lot more students are interested in going into STEM fields. And so students would be like, hey, I want to just take, you know, I want to stop taking history after two years. And now, because I met my graduation requirements, I know I love computer science, I just want to take all my courses in that. No one is going to say you cannot do that. We're going to do that yes and right. Like. Yes, I love, I love that you love computer science. That's amazing. And I'm seeing your college aspirations. And I just want you to be aware that these schools are having an expectation that you'll be coming in with yes, this defined interest and proof to be successful and to engage in subject areas across the board, but let's a little bit about just general recommendations for these kind of these subject areas in a typical us high school, right? You know, oftentimes students are going to have options for English, math, social studies, science, language, the arts, physical education, elective courses, if your school offers vocational courses. We had a student recently who did a podcast out to Milena, one of our former match, later students, who went to an aviation based High School in New York. And a lot of the courses and culture was around building skills for that particular career path. So no matter kind of what high school you're coming from, you probably have a spectrum of the course. The course buckets those subject areas that I just mentioned to some degree of extensiveness, right? And that's something that number one, I want you to you know, listening and tuning in, do not feel like you will be penalized for not having as many course options as the kid down the street. It's a really thing to be reminded of because you are not being evaluated or compared to that student and those offerings. The person reading your application only has access to kind of what you have in your high school environment. So that step one back in ninth grade of looking at the course list of what your high school offers that truly is also something that the admissions officer reading your file will be doing as well from the very first minute they start looking to your file. But let's start with English, because that is the one big subject area that I believe every state is required all four years. I think every now and then in admissions, we'd have a kid that, like we were accounting, we would be like, do they four years of English question mark? And we would always find out that there was some other title or something that wasn't, you know, as obviously English listed on their transcript, but yes, this is the one where, pretty much, depending on the high school you go to, you probably are doing this all four years, and you don't really have as much of a choice around it. But any advice do you have in ETF for students who are considering, okay, I know I have to take English for all four years. Which courses should I take? Yeah, no. But again,
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 12:20
it depends. It goes right back to like, what are the courses that my school offers, right? And sometimes that changes by year, depending on the teachers are available. So, you know, double check like, Hey, are we still offering this course or not? So every school might have a different name or title for your English course. Obviously, AP is stand as a national standard. So we know we have our AP English language and AP English literature. There's different courses that, like you said, may not be an obvious English check. And I think with that, just double check that that course that may be titled popular literature, or Shakespeare does fulfill that bucket in English, because sometimes it might fulfill a different bucket. So you just want to make sure that it's still meeting that English requirement. And I think when you if you go to a school that has all these wonderful options, right, that are like, you know, American literature, British literature, or just a humanities course, I would say, like, figure out which one you're interested in. You know, sometimes talking to the teacher who's teaching it, like, Hey, what are you reading? Talk to kids in what taking those courses right now, what do they like or don't like about it? Like, find out information from your peers at your high school, what's a kids talk? Right? Like, just like you do in college, who's a better professor? Right? Like, well, like, right? Like, who's who? What are you learning? Are they good? Are they not good? Like, what are you guys reading? And I think that sparks curiosity and lean into that. And so I think you know, if you have all these options, go with something that you would want to learn more about, yeah,
Tom Campbell 14:03
and of course, and if you don't have those options, right? You know, again, as we mentioned before, there are other opportunities to explore those curiosities outside of formal classes in your high school. So you have what you have, you have the options you do. So make the most of what's available, you know. And I think another piece of advice with English specifically is like, you know, if you have started to identify a personal attachment to a cause or a population or an identity, right, like, say, your school offers courses in, you know, feminist literature or the Harlem Renaissance, and you're really interested in that period of of history and the awesome pieces of work that were written during that time period, you know, taking those classes and asking yourself two questions. 1am, I? Am I going to be engaged with this and really feel like excited to show up to class every day? That's number one. Number 2am, I aware of what level this course is? Is in the eyes of the person reading my application. That's something that, again, kind of, as I said before, sometimes you do want to balance a little bit right. Like, you know, say you're you're approaching your senior year, and your high school offers these really kind of cool, niche English courses, and they also offer the AP route, language and literature. And you're like, Okay, do I take AP Lit, which is a little more like traditional and broad ranging, or this more niche, specialized option that's really special for my school. It's a personal decision. But just be aware the colleges that you're applying to, in terms of how selective they are. All colleges list the course kind of expectations, and you can also always ask individual admissions officers, even before you're a senior who is applying, you can always send an email to admissions team and be like, Hey, I'm considering taking these things. What would be your advice as someone who reads applications from my high school, you know, the worst thing that happens is that they don't respond to you. I'd be surprised if they sent back some kind of snarky remark or something, but they probably will tell you it's personal decision. But in general, we like to see, you know, students who have done XYZ, all right, the next subject area is math. Currently, right now, in 2023, you know, there's a lot of dialog, you know, among people in the college admission space and education space around how essential is it to kind of have these most traditionally rigorous subject areas and math, such as calculus, in particular, oftentimes, historically, that's been labeled the gold standard, you know, in selective college admissions offices of okay, even for students who aren't planning on majoring in a STEM area, we still prefer to see if a school offers calculus that's ideally the level that we'd like to see students reaching towards. Every student's trajectory is different. Every student's capacity and offerings is different. So we're always putting that caveat out there. But Nietzsche from your perspective, you know, and for example, say, if students are coming to you and asking that question of like, should I take AP Statistics instead of AP Calc? Because I'm not interested in math as much anymore, and I feel like I already, I already did the thing. So, you know, is this good enough to get into college? I'm looking for it's a hard question, and very individual, but it's one that we get a lot,
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 17:06
yeah, and again, it depends, right? It's our it's one of our favorite words, and it depends, because what is your intended major, right? For example, we have students who want to do pre med, they want to go into bio science, and there they are doing AP Stats instead of, you know, the calculus, or the I am three, or the, you know, integrative Math series. And I'm like, oh, we should have talked about this before you made that decision, right? Not because AP Stats is is bad, right? And that's not what we're saying. It's because it trains you and it gives you different it's a different set of math skills that you're learning, and calculus and stats are just so different in the way that they train you in the math that they're doing. And so if you're looking at a STEM based major. Understand that your courses, once you get to college, are probably going to be calculus or calculus based. You want to have a stronger foundation of understanding of what that will look like even, yeah, I took, I took tackles at a very long age. I like the class, and sometimes I'm like, Oh, should I have been an engineer, but I was, I was done with math. I'm like, no, no, no, right. However, my teacher, I still remember, we're in tutoring, and my teacher was like, well, even if you take AP Calc in high school and you pass it, if you go stem route, you're still going to have to take calculus again, but you're still going to But what this does is that it gives you a good foundation that you know where to start, you're not going to be as lost, right? So I think it depends on what you want to study, what you're considering, right?
Tom Campbell 18:50
Anecdotally, I can say at Pomona, if a student goes to a school that offers AP courses, and again, we've been mentioning AP a lot, but that's just coincidental. Doesn't mean you have to have them. But if the student's really interested in the humanities or the arts, and they're taking AP Stats as a senior, and they've already taken pre Calc, or maybe they took Calc and are taking, you know, they had the option to take BC calculus, they took a B and they took stats instead, because they're like, it's a different area for me, and I'm not planning on going to a STEM major. So for me, I think this makes a lot of sense. I'm building skills in a different area. Great. That's an awesome rationale. And no one I would say, you know, on a selective admissions committee would be hugely I mean, I don't want to say, no one, because, you know, extreme language, but most admission teams and and selective colleges out there would, I'd say, completely understand that rationale that you made. Sometimes students will be like, should I be doubling up in math if I'm planning on applying to these STEM programs, should I be surpassing four years of math? I my personal piece of advice around that is that I don't think there are many colleges out there that are expecting five plus years of math. I think there are applicants who are out there who are doing that, and I think being a. Aware of, you know, the level of dedication that many students are out there, especially applying to these really, really elite the Cal techs, the MITs. There are a lot of students who are taking classes along those spectrums, but many of those schools, Caltech, in particular, has been very vocal about kind of re imagining and understanding their entry level requirements in that barrier. But kind of, as you said, Nietzsche as well. Caltech has the resources, but not every college and university out there does. That's another thing to consider, too,
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 20:29
yeah. And if you're doubling up, right, I think under some what that's going to take, right? Because it's a lot
Unknown Speaker 20:36
of matter give you're
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 20:37
doubling something there, yeah, gotta go. And you know when, when you have that much math you might, you hope you love math, right? Because you know a problem set after problem set, or, you know, you want to make sure that you're able to to balance that out with the other classes that you still gotta take, right? And by that same hand, right? We have students who, like, are super, you know, I'm gonna go stem I don't need to do well in English. I don't need to do well in social science. I'm like, then that time out, right? You're gonna be an engineer. You still need to be able to talk to people, you still need to communicate. You're still gonna have to take some of those general ed courses of of how to critically think and analyze and write, right? And so those are still courses that you need to pay attention to, even if you are going the stem route, right? So, again, it's a balance between these two, kind of, like, you know, liberal arts and stem. And how you gonna be successful with a little bit of both, so that you become a well rounded individual, yeah?
Tom Campbell 21:34
And speaking of STEM, you know, we, we talked about math just now, courses that definitely you want to think about taking but for science, you know, that's the other area where this one, I feel like, is pretty straightforward in terms of both of our, our shared understanding of advice, is that Holy Trinity, or, you know, whatever Trinity you want to choose, whether it's the Powerpuff Girls or the Three Musketeers or whatever, like, think of biology, physics and chemistry as That powerful trio that are stronger as three. You know that that power of three of those three science classes, regardless of if you are planning on going on a STEM major or not, my understanding, especially if you're considering those more selective schools, is that if, if your high school offers it, I strongly encourage you to consider taking it at some regular level, depending on your comfort level, right? So even if you are a more humanities minded student, and you're like, hey, AP, physics, to me, seems like literally, it would be the bane of my existence as a senior fair. If your school has an honors or a regular option and you haven't taken physics yet, a lot of times, most high school many high school districts, will require that to be the case. It's hard for us to say, you know, we don't have the course requirement list for all 50 states in front of us, but it's a question you want to ask yourself, but know that the subject area itself is going to be something that is the safest route to go give will give you the most college options available by the time you're a senior. So that way you're not getting the senior year looking at all these college application requirements and meaning like crap, I don't have what I need to apply and be admitted here,
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 23:09
yeah. And then also understand when, when? Again, when you have that roadmap and you talk to college counselor, when are these courses offered? Because sometimes they're offered in different levels or different grades, depending on the school you go, sometimes all students are with bio, or they start with earth science, right? And then you progress to chemistry and then physics. Or sometimes, you know, we're seeing some high schools that start with physics freshman year, then they go to, you know, Chem and then bio, right? So there's different ways that schools organize or structured their science department. And so just understanding what that looks like at your school is important.
Tom Campbell 23:45
Yeah. And another question that we get frequently too is, you know, many students are interested in something in the health, health world, you know, I want to be a doctor. I want to be a PA, a physician's assistant. I want to be a nurse. You know, do I take anatomy instead of biology my senior year, right? Or AP Biology, because anatomy is really closely linked to the work that I'm about to be doing.
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 24:11
Yes, you can, you can take it. And I would say, Have you taken the other courses? Right? Is anatomy that elect? Can that be your elective class? Can that be something extra? Can that be something that you know, if you haven't taken bio or chemistry, if I were a college friend, I'm like, Oh, you're going to take one of these first before that, right? Or let's find a way to get you that experience. Maybe you volunteer at a hospital, you volunteer at a clinic, and get that hands on experience to see if nursing is for you, right? Because I think sometimes nursing is very romanticized, right? And then students go to like, Oh, I was not expecting that, yeah. And sometimes, you know, when I was I was an academic advisor at a community college, and I remember had a student comes into my office, we're working on their end plan. And. Students like, I want to do nursing. Okay, great. So we pull up the requirements for nursing, right? Which was a lot of bio, chemistry, math, like, that's that sequence you got to take them in. And then student was like, Well, I don't want to take science or chemistry. I'm like, okay, okay, let's all right, let's step back, right? So understanding that the reason that you do want to take the bio, the chem, the physics, is because, again, you're going to have that baseline knowledge to do better as you dig in deeper into the biochem, right, biology than anatomy, right? But you'll get that in your major preparation. Totally. Yeah.
Tom Campbell 25:39
And then the last point here, too, especially in this current landscape, is computer science. Is it a science? Yes, it is. However, a lot of times students will ask or wonder, you know, is it enough to replace some of those core areas? And my personal recommendation, of course, it's always it depends on the path that you're choosing for yourself when it comes to your college options, but in general, computer science is not going to be seen as a replacement for any of those other areas. Just like our recommendation around anatomy, right? It's a great way for you to gain those technical skills. And if your school does offer it, and you're planning on applying to computer science based programs in college, definitely consider taking advantage of the offerings in your high school to do that. And if they don't, you know, again, we've mentioned before, there's Coursera, there's things like UC Scout, to be able to take classes that are approved by the UC system, to have those as part of your, you know, overall toolkit of things you're bringing to the potluck that is your college application. So when it comes to CS, computer science, a lot of students really dig into this independently, outside of their high school offerings, because many students come from high schools where they don't have a computer science teacher or sequence or whatnot. So this is an area that for sure, if it's there, definitely makes sense to take advantage of it. And I'm sure that's something that an admissions officer reading a file, if you talk all about how much you eat, sleep, breathe, CS, and they like, well, it's offered in your high school, and you didn't take it like, that's interesting, and if you don't have an answer for them, explaining that either in your Additional Information section in your application, or contextualizing that in some way that you had this late epiphany. And then what are the things that you did to make up for that lost time, essentially on your own, yeah.
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 27:18
And with computer science, that example is, sometimes some schools count it as a math, yep, since it goes into science, or in the science, you know how some colleges are like, you know, two years required, three recommended, maybe computer science, if it's under science, completes a recommended year, but not the required component, right? So it's like that mishmash of like, well, I have my two years. Oh no, you actually still need one more more course. So it really depends on on the high school, or if they offer it, and how they're offering it, and even in certain math, it might not fulfill that three years required math component. It might fill the extra recommended portion of those requirements totally.
Tom Campbell 28:02
Yeah. So taking it, taking a little break from the stem world, and switching, you know, we're putting the social in front of the science with social sciences, or social studies, whatever you want to call it, it's another key area in terms of the solid courses that many high schools or have that requirement of, oftentimes, two years, maybe three. Rarely, I'd say, is there four years that are required? But again, we are recommending to go beyond that to maximize your options. Sometimes we get questions around. So say you're, you're at a high school, and they offer a ton of different really neat social studies classes. You know, they have everything from anthropology to human geography, to micro economics, macro economics. Maybe they have a politics class. You know, what would you say to the student who's kind of thinking about all those social studies options as a as a former history major, I I also, you know, share this in common with you. So,
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 28:57
oh my god, yeah, I love Oh my god, history. I love it. I think there's, there's a little bit more flexibility with the liberal arts, including, like history. I think sometimes you know, when you know, have those questions on your writing pieces for your college apps, of talk about a subject you're really interested or passionate about. I think that's where this can come into play, right? I and, and that can be super awesome. Like, you know, what I was really interested in, you know, current events. And I took this class, and this is what I did, and this is what I learned, and this, you know, I think that's what those classes can be, like, an extra plus or an extra benefit in your trajectory. But again, it depends on what those how we fix it, your schedule, what else is happening, and you're meeting the requirements for graduation and entrance for colleges.
Tom Campbell 29:47
Oftentimes, I would say it's these social studies classes that really can expose you and introduce you to why things are the way they are in 2023 and what you can potentially do about it with your other skills and talents out. Side of that. So Social Studies is incredibly relevant, and I think in terms of inspiring, a motivation for students. So I'd say we have less concrete advice about the preferred social studies classes that most colleges want to see. Of course, it's usually the more advanced options your school has that's typically the question to ask yourself. But you know, unlike, I'd say, math or science, where there is a little more of a core expectation of a particular subject area, social studies and English are going to fall in that more nuanced category. Think about it this
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 30:31
way too, if you're a student, right? Like, if you are a ninth or 10th grader, like, I still don't know what I would want to study. Or, you know what, this is a little bit interesting. You know, dive in more into that, take advantage of those courses. And sometimes that's how you find out potential majors or college that you've never heard of before, right? Because we tend to see the typical majors that students apply to our psychology, political science, guess what? There's a lot more options out there. And sometimes diving in, into getting exposed to some of these themes and topics within these courses, can help you see what else is out there at colleges, like those unique majors that you didn't, that you didn't know that existed for
Tom Campbell 31:09
sure. Next area here is language. So that's an often an area where a lot of times, I would say anecdotally, you know, as someone who read 1000s of college applications, both the essays, but also the academic component is this is going to be the area where students most frequently step back from completing four years in high school of a particular language level. It might be because the student reached the highest level of a language, and they do what we call it, they maxed out. So they reached Spanish four by the time they were a sophomore. So they finished the sequence of that particular language that's oftentimes for many colleges and universities, including those highly selective schools, that is going to be something that generally they're okay with. You know, they prefer the four years, and they might actually be really, really inspired and kind of really look at you with a really high degree of wow. This is a really motivated student who's really curious about other cultures and languages and worlds. If you say, for example, you max out in Spanish, but you decide, hey, my school offers Chinese. I'll take you know, the introductory two years of that for my junior and senior year. That's not completely out of the question when it comes to your high school experience. But on the flip side, if you're like, I'm not excited by languages at all these are the areas where I can't wait to be done. That's real. You know, we all have kind of the areas that we more naturally gravitate towards. It's always, kind of eternally, asking yourself that question of, How much does my distaste or my feeling of being uninspired by a subject, how much does that feeling supersede my future goals? Because if you do have these institutions that you're applying to that you're really excited about, that's a really big end goal for you. Sometimes making that little compromise and taking a course in a language area, even if it is in your favorite and even if you want to double up in that math subject. Instead, just be reminded that depending on your college list like that is something that someone on the admissions end is going to discuss about that choice. Well, we've, we've reached the top, the top five, those five core solid academic courses. But, of course, us high school students are like, well, that's not all I take. I also have arts courses I'm taking. There's, you know, visual and performing arts courses that are offered at my school, and I have a certain number of required years of that, you know, physical education. How does that factor into your college process? Do you have anitya? Any advice for students who are wondering, okay, well, these are also something I have to do to graduate. But like, what do colleges think about this? I think
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 33:35
the arts are a beautiful field to really inspire imagination, creativity in a way that is very different from the creativity you be doing an engineering project, right? And I think, you know, I was a band kid growing up all the way through college, and so for me, like music was important. And so I had peers growing up who, like they did their two years or their one year, and then they dropped it and go ahead drop it and understand what else is going to take what else are you going to take on, or what else is available to you. Or sometimes there's a conflict in schedules, and that's very real, right? I want to do that extra year of my Visual Performing Arts. However, in conflicts with my AP class that I really need for my major prep or whatever, I think it's understanding, okay, maybe do take the AP, but find an outlet, or an alternative outlet, of how you're going to continue with your interest in that art field, right? I think there's different ways that students can still be involved and engage in in their arts, whether it's music, performance, dance, painting, photography, film. I think there's different ways that students can still acknowledge that that intellectual curiosity and that passion and interest in ways that are maybe not, as you know, in the classroom setting. So I think understanding what is available. What you can still do. And sometimes we have students that go to school that that's the only way that they continue, that that outlet, because there's nothing else in their communities. I think that becomes more of a conversation again, with the people at your high school, right? Your counselor, your parents, and I think it's maybe again, contacting that admission reps talking to them at the college fair. Is this okay? What do you think? I think arts again, have a little bit more flexibility, but I think it's a field that shouldn't be just discarded.
Tom Campbell 35:31
Yeah, you were a band kid. I was drama kid, which you're probably like, not surprising, but no, I think with art that you know, sometimes if you do end up having these college aspirations and major goals, but you still love art and you still want to continue that. You can do that on an extracurricular level, you know, it's obviously, it's not the same, necessarily, as an actual class, and that has a particular cadence to it, and a rhythm and breaking up your day or your week, you know, in terms of, kind of, maybe some of these, more, these other classes that are using different sides of your brain. But I would say this is probably one of the areas where once you kind of meet those requirements for your high school, unless you are planning on majoring in an art area. It's probably an area where you can step away. You know, you don't have to necessarily have all four years of it, but electives is the last area that I would say, you know, again, these are going to be areas where it depends on your interest level and the offerings in your school, because at some of you might be coming from high schools where you have some really unique opportunities, right? And that said, I would still argue that they don't. That doesn't, that doesn't mean that those should supersede or replace those core areas depending on your college aspirations and path. Now let's close things out talking about grades. And it's funny that we're saving this to like the last final hour of the podcast. But the reason why I think that is important is because I have to say this is the area of the college process that it's a little bit of kind of like a catch 22 because yes, it is listed as number one as the most important factor in the admission process. That does not mean that it should dominate 99% of your mental energy and life and all the questions you have around your college process, because I would argue, and Niti, I'd be curious to hear your perspective that this tends to be the area where scrutiny and overthinking and kind of like the 1b plus you got in sophomore year Chemistry on your report card for the first quarter is rolling off my entire trajectory and plans. That is not the case. Nope. That I think is an over simplification of a particular grade dictating your entire future life. So in general, we're going to go through a rapid fire series of questions, particularly mostly around grades. Question number one is, how do colleges evaluate my courses, grades and transcript? Lucky for you, we have a whole episode that covers a lot of this and insight from how admissions readers look at this, speaking as a co host of said episode, so we've referenced it a couple times, but now, but Episode 403, AP, IB honors, Oh my How admissions officers view your high school courses, rigor and school context. We talk a lot more about kind of the overarching way that people in the admissions side of the desk actually look at some of those choices that we just described in this episode today. So if you want to deep dive into that admissions lens, that is the episode for you. Number two, do I have to get all A's to have a chance or a slash? Should I stress about getting all A's? Yeah, what do you think?
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 38:28
Well, I don't like the word stress. I think sometimes our students are putting a lot of pressure and unnecessary stress in their lives, given that we understand admissions in some schools, and I think that's the key writing in some colleges. Selectivity is crazy. The competitiveness to get accepted is like, wow, right? And I think it's there is a college for everybody. There is a place where you'll be, where you'll feel you'll belong, where you'll be successful. And I think, to that end, in my opinion, you don't have to get all A's. You do have to do well in your courses, right? I'm not saying go and get C's and D's and, you know, just closed, I think, push yourself. Be inspired to learn. You know, start developing those soft skills. And do, you know, put your best effort and understand what resources you need to be successful. And if you're not getting that a understand why reflect on it so that you can address it in your college application.
Tom Campbell 39:30
Yeah. So totally plus one. And you know, exact question of like, do I have to No, obviously, not to have a chance, no, a chance at where that's the bigger question. You know, there are some of these really, really, really tough schools to get into that the majority of applicants will be having always and so just being aware of what you're bringing to the Pollock and what they have to and know that you aren't being compared to every single student in every single high school, but if there are students. Are applying from your high school, or have historically applied who have had all A's, and that's typically what's admitted. You have a little more insight into it's going to be a little more difficult for you just based just completely being honest, right? But that is a very small list of schools, point 00, something percent of the entire US college education system and ops and so no, getting all A's is not absolutely the the end all be all when it comes to being a competitive college applicant and having amazing options. How do colleges evaluate your GPA? Is it more important to focus on weighted or unweighted? I'll tackle this one. Basically. The general rule of thumb is that most US colleges will use these grading scale and weighting scale that your high school reports to. Your high school is going to send to the admission team a scale through the school profile. The school counselor is going to fill out information that shows, okay, this is the highest GPA in our particular high school, and the college is going to have historical information. Typically, you might be the first applicant from a high school, and then, cheers, you're the guinea pig. And that doesn't mean you have a disadvantage. That's when I say that, but they'll have a historical records of what's a high GPA for your particular school. So when this is probably the area, my biggest piece of advice with this is like, please, please, please, do not stress out about other people's GPAs at other high schools that are not relevant to you whatsoever, because it really has no bearing on your process. There are certain colleges that recalculate and re they calculate a normalized GPA for all applicants. So the University of California system, or nits, sharing with me that she has read, is a school that does that as a school system that does do that, but in general, most colleges, I would say, are going to use the scale that your school offers. So if a school offers a both a weighted and an unweighted GPA, it's typically going to be that weighted one that has is going to be the one that's discussed and evaluated alongside other applicants from your high school currently or historically. We use that same scale. So hopefully that makes sense. Number Three should be like, I should actually number these, because I'm like liking on this. It's actually number four, what's more important? A high GPA or challenging courses. I think
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 42:09
it's a balance of both, right? I think we want to see if we're excelling in and you're doing well in all your courses, but there's no rigor. And I think there's a difference between your school doesn't offer that versus they offer it and you're not taking advantage of those opportunities. That's different. That's a different scenario. So can you maintain a high GPA with challenging courses? And I think that's the secret sauce a little bit right, of can you how can you blend both so that you are being successful in getting that high GPA as you're challenging yourself. And that's a really some for some students, it can be a fine line. For some students, it's a walk in the park. And this technology is that every student is different. Every high school is different. So it's not, I don't think it's an or I think it's a how do you a blend both
Tom Campbell 42:59
totally, yeah. And I would say this goes along with the the eternal question that everyone in admissions has perceived as when a life which is, is it better for me to get a B in an A, P i b honors course or an A in a regular course? And some people will snarly reply and say, Get the A in the honors a, p i b course. But these are real, kind of hypothetical questions that never come up in an admissions setting. There's always more to the story behind your transcript and what's you know, what's happened there? And there's always spaces in your application to explain any of those fumbles or missteps, or we know that sometimes maybe there's a way that the teacher was teaching the material that was challenging for you. Maybe there's a way to kind of talk about what was happening in your personal life or otherwise that resulted in that grade being what it was. There are definitely ways to give more context. Is the word that people in admissions use to that particular grade, but in terms of what's more important, it's really not a it's not a this or that. It's a this and that, yeah,
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 43:59
and you know, if you're if you're college, or the place you're looking at to apply, ask for letters of rec, right? You have a Google rapport with that teacher where you took that IP, maybe got a B or B plus, but you did well in that class, because you push yourself, you showed up like have them write you a letter of rec, right? And give that additional context from your teacher to support you in showcasing No. It wasn't because the student was slacking off like they were awesome.
Tom Campbell 44:24
Yeah, totally. That's a great piece of advice. All right, do I need to increase rigor every year?
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 44:30
I think what the word that's kind of I was like, What do you mean by need, right? And that's a question I would ask the student they came into my office. What do you mean by need, right? I think there we can impact that and say, Should you Yes, given context of where you are, what you need, what we offer, making sure that we can balance it's manageable. What other responsibilities do you have? What other duties do you need to accomplish are again, are you taking care of someone? Are you working? Are you an all star, like, volleyball player, right? Like, where all of that in context I would work with as soon as to figure out, can you and should you? And so I think the need is a little bit, you know, Oh, do you need to, let's, yeah,
Tom Campbell 45:15
totally Yeah. I think need is very ambiguous for it. I guess you could say, All right, so number six, should I be exceeding the rigor limits at my school through other means, like taking summer classes or online courses? They think about
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 45:32
that. This one's a tough one. I think one of the questions I would ask a student or a parent or family, if they're sitting with me, it's just like, Why? Why do you want to exceed the limits? What's happening? Right? And sometimes I get it. It comes from the pressures of going to, you know, a brand name school. It goes to the pressures of competitiveness with their class, with their with your peers, but, you know, the daughter and so and so, like, I understand that at the same time, I think we need to be able to prioritize the well being of our students and our teenagers, and understand that sometimes our schools make decisions because they understand what a student needs to be successful. And it's not just academic success. Success is the success of the teenager, right? There's so many things that are happening that they should still enjoy how to be a teenager right now, if a student is succeeding and excelling and kicking by in everything and doing everything they can and they want to do that extra summer course. Hey, you know what? Let's talk about it. Let's figure out what makes sense go for it. But I think it's such an individual piece of advice that there's so much more to that, you know, we don't want to push our students to limit where they're not sleeping, they're not eating, they're strung out, they're burnt out, that by the time they get to college, they're done right? And we don't want them to do that. And so, I don't know, I think, I think schools have limits for a reason. Some other schools don't have, cannot afford to do that, because they don't. That's all they offer. So I think it's all in context completely.
Tom Campbell 47:07
Yeah, I think there's a great initiative out of Stanford called challenge success, run by Dr Denise Pope, and it's all about there are many high schools that have basically had challenge success come into their school and make recommendations around things like course limits and, you know, planning out the schedule and study blocks, so that way students are not over setting themselves and they do, typically tend to be students who are coming from schools I know in the Bay Area, you know where you live, there's a lot of high schools where academic pressure is incredibly intense. And those limits, like you said, are there for a reason, and are designed for your health, wellness and balance, and they give you time and space to improve those other soft skills and values and qualities that colleges are also looking for. Yes, grades are one and two, but remember, they're the foot in the door with your application process. They don't swing it open for you. There are other things that you need to be communicating and showing to colleges that you have thought about and developed beyond only courses and grades all day, every day, plus through the summer, figuring out
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 48:07
like what they're bringing on campus, and from the high school side, is we understand that colleges have their institutional priorities. Are trying to build their class every year of what they need, what they offer. They're looking at students as people, and so that's great. You got a 4.5 you took all these APS, you you know, you took pet like, awesome. What else are you bringing, right? How developing, you know, compassion, all these skills that are important for students to be successful, and are you going to take advantage of the resources that the campus is offering? Right? So there's all these different things, of like, you know, maybe, maybe go volunteer, maybe do community service, maybe explore something else that you haven't had a chance to do, instead of pushing a limit on another academic thing where take a pause, right? You're going to be going to school for the next four years, and if you continue for, you know, graduate degree, you'll be in school forever, like, enjoy some of those moments and do something else
Tom Campbell 49:06
completely. Yeah, and actually, shameless plug for, in fact, you said, kind of positive character attributes like compassion and generosity and entrepreneurship and all these different things. Stay tuned for the next episode after this, which is going to be actually all about positive character attributes, which in this year's Knack act report is listed as the third most sought after quality in a college application, even ahead of essays, even ahead of recommendations, even ahead of extracurricular activities. So stay tuned for that. We're not just saying it. Expect it's backed up by science research. Number seven, what about class rank? Am I disadvantaged if my school does not rank students, we
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 49:47
don't rank at our schools. And I think that's some schools are this is a divide, right? Some schools are no longer ranking. Some schools continue to rank. And again, I think what you explored in the episode with Susan, I. They talk a little bit more about context in the school profile, and so if you need more clarification as you're filling out the common app, for example, again, talk to your college counselor. Figure out what's the best way to fill that piece of information out.
Tom Campbell 50:13
Yeah. I mean generally, the piece here is that what the choices that your high school has made for you as a student and your student population are ones that the admission team is not going to question or penalize you for. They're not going to go and say, well, you should have went to the principal and demanded that they rank students, because you would have been ranked number one so you missed out. Never in my life have I ever heard a phrase like that or a thought pattern or logic along those lines. What they what the admissions officer does want to know, though, is how, is, how has your performance stacked up in comparison to the broader peer group at your high school? And usually, high schools communicate lots of different information, like you said, just said in the school profile, whether that's a grade distribution chart or, you know, they just don't list any information about rank at all. The high school that I worked out we gave no information about it. It would just be the historical information that a college keeps on their end of students, grades and GPAs and things like that that they would have a sense for what's a high GPA at insert name of school ranked not necessarily essential to make that decision. Number eight, my school offers a combination of advanced courses, honors, AP, IB and or dual enrollment. Dual enrollment with community college classes might be better for admissions, right? Question mark,
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 51:31
it depends. Dual Enrollment is is a tricky one, right only because it depends on what colleges you're applying to and where the community college are you trying to get college credit? Are you trying to get high school credit right? What are you trying to fulfill with this dual enrollment course in California, specifically, like our colleges, have articulation agreements with community colleges that they're able to evaluate if it meets a requirement or another course on our campus, because they have that communication. Now, if a student from here goes out of state, it depends on the college, or they'll take it and give them college credit or not. Most often they'll be like, Oh, it's rigor. You push yourself. That's great. You might still have to retake that course because they want to make sure, especially the private schools, or they want to make sure that you're taking the courses there. They want to make sure you're completing the four years there. And so it really depends on on why you're taking that dual enrollment. What is it fulfilling? What makes sense? So it's all in context and an individual kind of guidance with that student and family,
Tom Campbell 52:40
100% Yeah, and I would say with the dual enrollment question too, though, the one other thing I would mention, just like I really want to plus one and underscore the point you made about what is it fulfilling? Because community colleges offer hundreds of classes, so many cool, exciting options, but some of them are not in course subject areas that are really essential to all the advice that I mentioned before about those five solid course areas, just because the class is dual enrollment, if it's not in a course subject area, it wouldn't, in my opinion, be a replacement for an advanced placement biology class if you're taking kind of a really, you know, technical or specialized or, like an ultrasound class, for example, that wouldn't be a replacement for an AP Biology class in your high school, even though it's a college level class,
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 53:24
yeah, not. And just like the articulate the articulation agreements at community colleges have not all courses transferred to a four year right? And so just because you took, you know, a course in you know, Visual Performing Arts at the community college level might not fulfill the general ed breadth and the study of art, which is very different from the doing of art, right? So it really depends on what they're offering now, if there's dual enrollment, specifically now goes into the courses that the partnership that a high school and a community college have, and they offer it on campus at your high school, that can be a little bit different, because then there's been a little bit more of a making sure that the course meets a requirement, making sure that it's transferable. And so if you're going and taking the course at the community college, that's where it's like you want to make sure that you're taking the right course. Also, 100%
Tom Campbell 54:15
number nine are AP and IB scores important, if my school doesn't offer AP courses, should I sell study for the exam?
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 54:24
I think, well, they can be right. Scores can be important, especially if you pass. I don't think I've heard and correct me if I'm wrong that if a student doesn't pass an exam, they get dinged on I think it's it becomes an added value, right? If they do pass, it's like, oh, they pushed themselves. They took it, they passed. Thing is, like an extra point, but they're not gonna get like, docked for not passing it. I think again, the stress and the importance of APs and AP scores is understanding if taking us if passing with a specific score, will grow. And to college credit, right? And I think that's where sometimes students I just want to take the AP because it does a GPA bump. I'm like, Yes, and right? The importance of APS is that you're passing so that it saves you time. It saves you money once you get to college. Now, not all schools offer AP or IB, and so some students do want to self study, because you don't have to take the course to take the exam. Also understand what it's going to take to be able to study to pass the discipline, the time it takes to study the what if you have questions? What if I have questions about this specific problem? Or how do I prep so knowing what resources you have to be able to prepare to pass, that's gonna take a little bit more advocacy and discipline and time management from you, again, a lot of the soft skills that we've been talking about, connect with your college counselor to figure out what's the appropriate level of path for you.
Tom Campbell 55:58
100% Yeah. And I would also say, you know, when it comes to AP scores and taking the AP exam, especially if you're electing to take it, I used to work at a school that we we didn't offer AP courses, but the families and students were convinced that to be competitive in today's landscape, they had to self study and take the exam to keep up with other students at other schools, I would say this is a trend to not jump on that bandwagon if you're planning on applying to mostly very highly selective schools, because a lot of those schools, and you can check and see on each individual schools web pages how many AP credits they fulfill, but a lot of them Actually don't take very many, if at all, so you hustling and doing all this self studying and sacrificing other important areas of your high school experience for something that honestly is not really adding a lot of value to your particular college application journey and goals. Is no if you don't go to a school that offers AP classes, no person in admissions will even expect that you have a single score to report because you don't have AP classes to report on your report or your transcript. So just keep that in mind and know that under I understand the hustle to keep up with the Joneses. And you know, maybe you have friends who go to a AP high school and they have those scores, but if the colleges you're applying to, if it doesn't really impact your candidacy or give you any credit, it's really not something you need to stress yourself over. And the last one, number 10, how do I know what classes to take if I don't know what I want to study or where I want to go to college? This is kind of like the big like, this is like, the big like, kind of like, What's the word for it? You got to think about to philosophy, existential. This is a very existential question of like, How can I do if I don't know who?
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 57:50
Yeah, I mean, I think again, focus on those core subjects that we talked about. If there's any particular area of interest or passion and your school offers it go for it leaning on, lean in, into those areas of interest and passions. I think that's it can open up a whole new set of of likes and dislikes. It might help you figure out what you want to study or major in in college. It can figure out how you want to approach your extracurriculars or activities. And I think it's just really understand, take it year by year, right? There's there is time. It goes by fast, but there is time, I think that constant checking of like, am I meeting my know what your requirements are to graduate? Know what generally, what are those requirements that you need to take? And again, we went over this, right? Like, your English, your math, science, social that like that is you're not going to lose if you follow those basic kind of like minimums,
Tom Campbell 58:48
for sure. And I would say too, you know, this is an area where your college list really can be really giving you a little bit of relief when it comes to that feeling of not knowing just quite yet where you want to specialize. And you know, we've talked a lot about how increasingly, in the US, there is a little bit of a move for students to feel like they want to specialize a little earlier than historically, in the past few decades. And you know that for some students, makes sense in their brain. They have an area they've identified. They start to lean into it. They start to build some of those, you know, hands on experiences that confirm, kind of like we mentioned with nursing, that they indeed do want to pursue it. But there's also so many college options out there, in the US, and this is a real privilege of actually the United States, the system is we do have options, like liberal arts colleges that are more meant for those students who are still discerning you have, usually until the end of your sophomore year of college to declare that major, so you have a little more time and resources, oftentimes, especially for many students who didn't have as many opportunities to do research or internships or get the hands on confirmation on the high school level, you have more time on the college end to be able to make up for that. Nietzsche, thank you. So much for spending so much time with me today to tackle this topic. I know it's a lot to get through, and I'm sure you know, hopefully we address some questions you had in the back of your mind, but I'm sure we also prompted a lot more questions that you may be sparking up. And in that case, as Nitya mentioned, talk to your counselor as much as they're available to you. Lean on resources like College Essay Guy, where we have dozens of blogs, podcasts, resources, YouTube videos that give a lot more elaboration and detail on many of the topics that we discussed today. And wishing you the best of luck is students, families tuning in with tackling course selection and grades and doing it in a way that honors the things you're curious about while also honoring those goals you have for yourself too. So thank
Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 1:00:41
you so much. Thank you. This was so much fun.
Tom Campbell 1:00:48
Thanks friends for listening. As always, you'll find the resources we discussed in the show notes. Keep an eye out for our next episode. What do colleges want? Part three, positive character attributes. What are they and how do you show them in your college application. Finally, are you on our newsletter yet? If not, it's the best way to learn about upcoming webinars and resources. And you can join by going to our home page, college sai.com All right, that's all we've got. Be well and stay curious. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show transcript
Tom Campbell 0:08 Tom, Hi friends. Tom Campbell here, former Pomona and Holy Cross admissions officer turned Community Manager at college. Sa guy and a co host of the podcast. Today, we're diving into part two of our what colleges want series, a deep dive into the factors colleges consider most important as determined by the most recent State of college admission report released by NACAC or the National Association for College Admission Counseling. Today, we're talking about number one and number two, most important factors, and they've long been number one and number two. What do colleges consider most important? I'll tell you, grades known to many as your GPA and your course rigor, in other words, how you challenge yourself based on the academic opportunities available to you? On today's episode, I sat down with longtime college counselor Nitz Cuevas Macias to cover how do students decide what classes to take and what questions should they ask themselves when deciding tips and recommendations around selecting courses in various academic subjects, including English, math, science, social studies, languages and elective courses. And we'll wrap things up with the top 10 most frequently asked questions myself and its ya receive around courses, grades and everything in between. For a deeper discussion on things like identifying your academic superpower, infusing intellectual curiosity into your supplemental essays and how college admission officers view your high school courses in rigor. Check out episodes 403 and 413, with myself and college essay guy's very own legendary college counselor, Susan tree, but right now, meet our special guest Nitz Cuevas. Macias nitzia is a first gen college student who graduated from the University of California, Berkeley in California, Berkeley, where she studied history and legal studies, and her master's in Mexican American studies from San Jose State. She's been working in education for 16 years, where the majority of her time has been in college access and success in the CBO non profit world, K through 12 public and charter and community college side of the desk. Currently, she's the director of college programs at downtown college prep, a free public charter school in San Jose, California, and serves as a board member of the Western Association for college admission counseling. We hope you enjoy our conversation. Nitz, so awesome to have you today on the college essay podcast, and it's also awesome to be twinning with you a little bit. People can't see this because it's audio, but we are both rocking some matching brow fits. Is what I've been told. That's called gray outfit. I don't know if that term is I heard that term before, no, but we're here matching. We're here. We're doing it match and gray sweatshirts, but we're gonna bring some color and some dynamism to the exciting topic that I'm sure you've been just craving for months, weeks, years now of your life, dear audience, which is course selection, but I kind of wanted just to see you know before we dive into some of the core content, you know why this topic is Something that you find to be important from your own personal experience, you know, in your role as a college counselor now, kind of, what are some of the big things that you want people to know? The big, kind of, like, overarching takeaway of, like, you know why? I guess pushing yourself academically and committing to that journey is something that's worthwhile. Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 3:18 Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's exciting to share experience and knowledge. I, as you mentioned, I grew up as a, you know, first gen college student, but my parents really, really instilled this value and love and appreciation for education, and so my parents were very active. I have two younger brothers, so the three of us were really pushed academically, and so academics in college were never a question. It was just making sure we were prepared for that next step in a way that that we were also being prepared for life. So my parents pushed me so hard and quick example, I ended up taking AP Calculus, a B as a sophomore in my high school. Okay, it was, it was great. And I was like, Oh, this. I'm done with I'm done with math. And one of the things I think you'll hear throughout my my time with you today is my, my mantra, little Yes, and only because it expands a lot of the work that we do. And so in my career, I've been working predominantly with low income, first generation families, specifically with Latino families and community. And I think it's important for all of our students and families to understand what it takes and can take in a way that's also healthy and manageable, right? A lot of stress that our students are going through a lot of changes in our field that we're seeing and facing, and so, yeah, I think it's just important for us to keep an eye and a pin on what's happening at our high school superpower students for their next step and quick shout out to the parents for helping their kids. This value education and going through it, because I remember those, those fights, the slamming the doors that, you know what? I can't do this anymore. By looking back, I really appreciate all the work and support my parents did for my brothers and I to get us to where we're at right now. Tom Campbell 5:16 Yeah, hey, huge shout out to that, that parental influence. Because I know if you're a parent tuning in and you're like, hey, my kid is sick of me nagging them about which courses to take. Do know that you know, both Niti and I can definitely attest to parental influence being pretty significant. For me. It was, it was less about being pushed to take certain courses, but just it was the overall kind of culture of valuing education. My dad does nonprofit work in Haiti specifically, kind of helping build schools for free for communities there and my mom all her life, starting from the beginning of her career, elementary school teacher in inner city school Springfield. So definitely the transformative power of education, and it's something that I know, you know, both of us in our conversations before this podcast, definitely really appreciate. So thanks for being here. I'm so glad. Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 6:03 Yeah, one of the one of the biggest messages that we give students and families is college success begins with high school success, right? So one, we want to make sure we're setting that tone, because we want to make sure that students and parents understand it doesn't start 11th grade. It doesn't start 12th grade. It starts now, and sometimes even sooner than that. And so with that is, how are you adjusting to high school? Right? What's new, what's different? More often you're getting access to more classes, more courses with different rigor levels, right? What does that mean? Time management, as you're learning to increase your rigor in courses, or exploring interests, like I want to do that sewing club, or I want to try out for the volleyball team. Or, you know what this summer I want to do? You know, a Summer Reading Club, for example. How are you learning to manage your different responsibilities, along with enjoying, still enjoying to be a teenager, because I think there's value in that as well be learning how to be a little bit more independent, right? So what do what? How are you studying at home? Are you setting out time to study 30 minutes? Take a break for five don't know the 30 minutes, right? So those are the things I think for there as a ninth grader, you're dipping your toes into high school and trying to understand what works for you, what are you liking? How you feel uncomfortable in this new space and almost it's like anything that you didn't try in middle school or that you couldn't do in middle school, try it now, right? Explore. Have fun with it, even if you do join a club and you don't like it, I think one of the things that's okay, right? It's perfectly normal to go into me New York, this is not what I thought it would be. I think the biggest piece that's important, at least from the cause of college cancer, is like, why, why didn't you like it? Right? Being able to reflect on on that process is just as important as you knowing why you like, you know, to be part of the chess club. And so start paying attention to, you know, what? What are the upper class men doing? What are the juniors doing? What are the sophomores doing? What's available at my school? Right? You're almost like, figuring it out. And there's so much happening freshman year that it's okay to take your time, just be aware of what's happening. Totally Tom Campbell 8:24 that's great. Great. Step one is just that awareness of like, okay, what am I stepping into in high school? Like, courses and otherwise, like, what is this new landscape that's available to me with all this choice and independence, more than I'm used to, and that will increase when you get to college too. It's each time there's a new leveling up new software update the expectations that you, you know, have on yourself, of clarity of how you want to spend your time, the communities you want to be a part, of the curiosities you want to lean into, and starting in ninth grade, like really wrestling with those why questions I know we talked a lot about, that is, is a huge step. Number one, just on a macro level, and I think one big piece, I guess, reflection question that I would put out there for those rising 11 and then 12th graders is, you know, how can I balance really fostering my own curiosities and doing, you know, what my counselors encouraging me to to lean into the things that I'm Interested in, while still ensuring that I have as many like on the pragmatic end of the coin, that I still have the options that excite me and that give me the opportunities that I'm craving. Right? So that's sometimes there are going to be situations where, for example, the high school that I used to work at very and I know you talked about this as well, increasingly, a lot more students are interested in going into STEM fields. And so students would be like, hey, I want to just take, you know, I want to stop taking history after two years. And now, because I met my graduation requirements, I know I love computer science, I just want to take all my courses in that. No one is going to say you cannot do that. We're going to do that yes and right. Like. Yes, I love, I love that you love computer science. That's amazing. And I'm seeing your college aspirations. And I just want you to be aware that these schools are having an expectation that you'll be coming in with yes, this defined interest and proof to be successful and to engage in subject areas across the board, but let's a little bit about just general recommendations for these kind of these subject areas in a typical us high school, right? You know, oftentimes students are going to have options for English, math, social studies, science, language, the arts, physical education, elective courses, if your school offers vocational courses. We had a student recently who did a podcast out to Milena, one of our former match, later students, who went to an aviation based High School in New York. And a lot of the courses and culture was around building skills for that particular career path. So no matter kind of what high school you're coming from, you probably have a spectrum of the course. The course buckets those subject areas that I just mentioned to some degree of extensiveness, right? And that's something that number one, I want you to you know, listening and tuning in, do not feel like you will be penalized for not having as many course options as the kid down the street. It's a really thing to be reminded of because you are not being evaluated or compared to that student and those offerings. The person reading your application only has access to kind of what you have in your high school environment. So that step one back in ninth grade of looking at the course list of what your high school offers that truly is also something that the admissions officer reading your file will be doing as well from the very first minute they start looking to your file. But let's start with English, because that is the one big subject area that I believe every state is required all four years. I think every now and then in admissions, we'd have a kid that, like we were accounting, we would be like, do they four years of English question mark? And we would always find out that there was some other title or something that wasn't, you know, as obviously English listed on their transcript, but yes, this is the one where, pretty much, depending on the high school you go to, you probably are doing this all four years, and you don't really have as much of a choice around it. But any advice do you have in ETF for students who are considering, okay, I know I have to take English for all four years. Which courses should I take? Yeah, no. But again, Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 12:20 it depends. It goes right back to like, what are the courses that my school offers, right? And sometimes that changes by year, depending on the teachers are available. So, you know, double check like, Hey, are we still offering this course or not? So every school might have a different name or title for your English course. Obviously, AP is stand as a national standard. So we know we have our AP English language and AP English literature. There's different courses that, like you said, may not be an obvious English check. And I think with that, just double check that that course that may be titled popular literature, or Shakespeare does fulfill that bucket in English, because sometimes it might fulfill a different bucket. So you just want to make sure that it's still meeting that English requirement. And I think when you if you go to a school that has all these wonderful options, right, that are like, you know, American literature, British literature, or just a humanities course, I would say, like, figure out which one you're interested in. You know, sometimes talking to the teacher who's teaching it, like, Hey, what are you reading? Talk to kids in what taking those courses right now, what do they like or don't like about it? Like, find out information from your peers at your high school, what's a kids talk? Right? Like, just like you do in college, who's a better professor? Right? Like, well, like, right? Like, who's who? What are you learning? Are they good? Are they not good? Like, what are you guys reading? And I think that sparks curiosity and lean into that. And so I think you know, if you have all these options, go with something that you would want to learn more about, yeah, Tom Campbell 14:03 and of course, and if you don't have those options, right? You know, again, as we mentioned before, there are other opportunities to explore those curiosities outside of formal classes in your high school. So you have what you have, you have the options you do. So make the most of what's available, you know. And I think another piece of advice with English specifically is like, you know, if you have started to identify a personal attachment to a cause or a population or an identity, right, like, say, your school offers courses in, you know, feminist literature or the Harlem Renaissance, and you're really interested in that period of of history and the awesome pieces of work that were written during that time period, you know, taking those classes and asking yourself two questions. 1am, I? Am I going to be engaged with this and really feel like excited to show up to class every day? That's number one. Number 2am, I aware of what level this course is? Is in the eyes of the person reading my application. That's something that, again, kind of, as I said before, sometimes you do want to balance a little bit right. Like, you know, say you're you're approaching your senior year, and your high school offers these really kind of cool, niche English courses, and they also offer the AP route, language and literature. And you're like, Okay, do I take AP Lit, which is a little more like traditional and broad ranging, or this more niche, specialized option that's really special for my school. It's a personal decision. But just be aware the colleges that you're applying to, in terms of how selective they are. All colleges list the course kind of expectations, and you can also always ask individual admissions officers, even before you're a senior who is applying, you can always send an email to admissions team and be like, Hey, I'm considering taking these things. What would be your advice as someone who reads applications from my high school, you know, the worst thing that happens is that they don't respond to you. I'd be surprised if they sent back some kind of snarky remark or something, but they probably will tell you it's personal decision. But in general, we like to see, you know, students who have done XYZ, all right, the next subject area is math. Currently, right now, in 2023, you know, there's a lot of dialog, you know, among people in the college admission space and education space around how essential is it to kind of have these most traditionally rigorous subject areas and math, such as calculus, in particular, oftentimes, historically, that's been labeled the gold standard, you know, in selective college admissions offices of okay, even for students who aren't planning on majoring in a STEM area, we still prefer to see if a school offers calculus that's ideally the level that we'd like to see students reaching towards. Every student's trajectory is different. Every student's capacity and offerings is different. So we're always putting that caveat out there. But Nietzsche from your perspective, you know, and for example, say, if students are coming to you and asking that question of like, should I take AP Statistics instead of AP Calc? Because I'm not interested in math as much anymore, and I feel like I already, I already did the thing. So, you know, is this good enough to get into college? I'm looking for it's a hard question, and very individual, but it's one that we get a lot, Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 17:06 yeah, and again, it depends, right? It's our it's one of our favorite words, and it depends, because what is your intended major, right? For example, we have students who want to do pre med, they want to go into bio science, and there they are doing AP Stats instead of, you know, the calculus, or the I am three, or the, you know, integrative Math series. And I'm like, oh, we should have talked about this before you made that decision, right? Not because AP Stats is is bad, right? And that's not what we're saying. It's because it trains you and it gives you different it's a different set of math skills that you're learning, and calculus and stats are just so different in the way that they train you in the math that they're doing. And so if you're looking at a STEM based major. Understand that your courses, once you get to college, are probably going to be calculus or calculus based. You want to have a stronger foundation of understanding of what that will look like even, yeah, I took, I took tackles at a very long age. I like the class, and sometimes I'm like, Oh, should I have been an engineer, but I was, I was done with math. I'm like, no, no, no, right. However, my teacher, I still remember, we're in tutoring, and my teacher was like, well, even if you take AP Calc in high school and you pass it, if you go stem route, you're still going to have to take calculus again, but you're still going to But what this does is that it gives you a good foundation that you know where to start, you're not going to be as lost, right? So I think it depends on what you want to study, what you're considering, right? Tom Campbell 18:50 Anecdotally, I can say at Pomona, if a student goes to a school that offers AP courses, and again, we've been mentioning AP a lot, but that's just coincidental. Doesn't mean you have to have them. But if the student's really interested in the humanities or the arts, and they're taking AP Stats as a senior, and they've already taken pre Calc, or maybe they took Calc and are taking, you know, they had the option to take BC calculus, they took a B and they took stats instead, because they're like, it's a different area for me, and I'm not planning on going to a STEM major. So for me, I think this makes a lot of sense. I'm building skills in a different area. Great. That's an awesome rationale. And no one I would say, you know, on a selective admissions committee would be hugely I mean, I don't want to say, no one, because, you know, extreme language, but most admission teams and and selective colleges out there would, I'd say, completely understand that rationale that you made. Sometimes students will be like, should I be doubling up in math if I'm planning on applying to these STEM programs, should I be surpassing four years of math? I my personal piece of advice around that is that I don't think there are many colleges out there that are expecting five plus years of math. I think there are applicants who are out there who are doing that, and I think being a. Aware of, you know, the level of dedication that many students are out there, especially applying to these really, really elite the Cal techs, the MITs. There are a lot of students who are taking classes along those spectrums, but many of those schools, Caltech, in particular, has been very vocal about kind of re imagining and understanding their entry level requirements in that barrier. But kind of, as you said, Nietzsche as well. Caltech has the resources, but not every college and university out there does. That's another thing to consider, too, Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 20:29 yeah. And if you're doubling up, right, I think under some what that's going to take, right? Because it's a lot Unknown Speaker 20:36 of matter give you're Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 20:37 doubling something there, yeah, gotta go. And you know when, when you have that much math you might, you hope you love math, right? Because you know a problem set after problem set, or, you know, you want to make sure that you're able to to balance that out with the other classes that you still gotta take, right? And by that same hand, right? We have students who, like, are super, you know, I'm gonna go stem I don't need to do well in English. I don't need to do well in social science. I'm like, then that time out, right? You're gonna be an engineer. You still need to be able to talk to people, you still need to communicate. You're still gonna have to take some of those general ed courses of of how to critically think and analyze and write, right? And so those are still courses that you need to pay attention to, even if you are going the stem route, right? So, again, it's a balance between these two, kind of, like, you know, liberal arts and stem. And how you gonna be successful with a little bit of both, so that you become a well rounded individual, yeah? Tom Campbell 21:34 And speaking of STEM, you know, we, we talked about math just now, courses that definitely you want to think about taking but for science, you know, that's the other area where this one, I feel like, is pretty straightforward in terms of both of our, our shared understanding of advice, is that Holy Trinity, or, you know, whatever Trinity you want to choose, whether it's the Powerpuff Girls or the Three Musketeers or whatever, like, think of biology, physics and chemistry as That powerful trio that are stronger as three. You know that that power of three of those three science classes, regardless of if you are planning on going on a STEM major or not, my understanding, especially if you're considering those more selective schools, is that if, if your high school offers it, I strongly encourage you to consider taking it at some regular level, depending on your comfort level, right? So even if you are a more humanities minded student, and you're like, hey, AP, physics, to me, seems like literally, it would be the bane of my existence as a senior fair. If your school has an honors or a regular option and you haven't taken physics yet, a lot of times, most high school many high school districts, will require that to be the case. It's hard for us to say, you know, we don't have the course requirement list for all 50 states in front of us, but it's a question you want to ask yourself, but know that the subject area itself is going to be something that is the safest route to go give will give you the most college options available by the time you're a senior. So that way you're not getting the senior year looking at all these college application requirements and meaning like crap, I don't have what I need to apply and be admitted here, Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 23:09 yeah. And then also understand when, when? Again, when you have that roadmap and you talk to college counselor, when are these courses offered? Because sometimes they're offered in different levels or different grades, depending on the school you go, sometimes all students are with bio, or they start with earth science, right? And then you progress to chemistry and then physics. Or sometimes, you know, we're seeing some high schools that start with physics freshman year, then they go to, you know, Chem and then bio, right? So there's different ways that schools organize or structured their science department. And so just understanding what that looks like at your school is important. Tom Campbell 23:45 Yeah. And another question that we get frequently too is, you know, many students are interested in something in the health, health world, you know, I want to be a doctor. I want to be a PA, a physician's assistant. I want to be a nurse. You know, do I take anatomy instead of biology my senior year, right? Or AP Biology, because anatomy is really closely linked to the work that I'm about to be doing. Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 24:11 Yes, you can, you can take it. And I would say, Have you taken the other courses? Right? Is anatomy that elect? Can that be your elective class? Can that be something extra? Can that be something that you know, if you haven't taken bio or chemistry, if I were a college friend, I'm like, Oh, you're going to take one of these first before that, right? Or let's find a way to get you that experience. Maybe you volunteer at a hospital, you volunteer at a clinic, and get that hands on experience to see if nursing is for you, right? Because I think sometimes nursing is very romanticized, right? And then students go to like, Oh, I was not expecting that, yeah. And sometimes, you know, when I was I was an academic advisor at a community college, and I remember had a student comes into my office, we're working on their end plan. And. Students like, I want to do nursing. Okay, great. So we pull up the requirements for nursing, right? Which was a lot of bio, chemistry, math, like, that's that sequence you got to take them in. And then student was like, Well, I don't want to take science or chemistry. I'm like, okay, okay, let's all right, let's step back, right? So understanding that the reason that you do want to take the bio, the chem, the physics, is because, again, you're going to have that baseline knowledge to do better as you dig in deeper into the biochem, right, biology than anatomy, right? But you'll get that in your major preparation. Totally. Yeah. Tom Campbell 25:39 And then the last point here, too, especially in this current landscape, is computer science. Is it a science? Yes, it is. However, a lot of times students will ask or wonder, you know, is it enough to replace some of those core areas? And my personal recommendation, of course, it's always it depends on the path that you're choosing for yourself when it comes to your college options, but in general, computer science is not going to be seen as a replacement for any of those other areas. Just like our recommendation around anatomy, right? It's a great way for you to gain those technical skills. And if your school does offer it, and you're planning on applying to computer science based programs in college, definitely consider taking advantage of the offerings in your high school to do that. And if they don't, you know, again, we've mentioned before, there's Coursera, there's things like UC Scout, to be able to take classes that are approved by the UC system, to have those as part of your, you know, overall toolkit of things you're bringing to the potluck that is your college application. So when it comes to CS, computer science, a lot of students really dig into this independently, outside of their high school offerings, because many students come from high schools where they don't have a computer science teacher or sequence or whatnot. So this is an area that for sure, if it's there, definitely makes sense to take advantage of it. And I'm sure that's something that an admissions officer reading a file, if you talk all about how much you eat, sleep, breathe, CS, and they like, well, it's offered in your high school, and you didn't take it like, that's interesting, and if you don't have an answer for them, explaining that either in your Additional Information section in your application, or contextualizing that in some way that you had this late epiphany. And then what are the things that you did to make up for that lost time, essentially on your own, yeah. Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 27:18 And with computer science, that example is, sometimes some schools count it as a math, yep, since it goes into science, or in the science, you know how some colleges are like, you know, two years required, three recommended, maybe computer science, if it's under science, completes a recommended year, but not the required component, right? So it's like that mishmash of like, well, I have my two years. Oh no, you actually still need one more more course. So it really depends on on the high school, or if they offer it, and how they're offering it, and even in certain math, it might not fulfill that three years required math component. It might fill the extra recommended portion of those requirements totally. Tom Campbell 28:02 Yeah. So taking it, taking a little break from the stem world, and switching, you know, we're putting the social in front of the science with social sciences, or social studies, whatever you want to call it, it's another key area in terms of the solid courses that many high schools or have that requirement of, oftentimes, two years, maybe three. Rarely, I'd say, is there four years that are required? But again, we are recommending to go beyond that to maximize your options. Sometimes we get questions around. So say you're, you're at a high school, and they offer a ton of different really neat social studies classes. You know, they have everything from anthropology to human geography, to micro economics, macro economics. Maybe they have a politics class. You know, what would you say to the student who's kind of thinking about all those social studies options as a as a former history major, I I also, you know, share this in common with you. So, Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 28:57 oh my god, yeah, I love Oh my god, history. I love it. I think there's, there's a little bit more flexibility with the liberal arts, including, like history. I think sometimes you know, when you know, have those questions on your writing pieces for your college apps, of talk about a subject you're really interested or passionate about. I think that's where this can come into play, right? I and, and that can be super awesome. Like, you know, what I was really interested in, you know, current events. And I took this class, and this is what I did, and this is what I learned, and this, you know, I think that's what those classes can be, like, an extra plus or an extra benefit in your trajectory. But again, it depends on what those how we fix it, your schedule, what else is happening, and you're meeting the requirements for graduation and entrance for colleges. Tom Campbell 29:47 Oftentimes, I would say it's these social studies classes that really can expose you and introduce you to why things are the way they are in 2023 and what you can potentially do about it with your other skills and talents out. Side of that. So Social Studies is incredibly relevant, and I think in terms of inspiring, a motivation for students. So I'd say we have less concrete advice about the preferred social studies classes that most colleges want to see. Of course, it's usually the more advanced options your school has that's typically the question to ask yourself. But you know, unlike, I'd say, math or science, where there is a little more of a core expectation of a particular subject area, social studies and English are going to fall in that more nuanced category. Think about it this Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 30:31 way too, if you're a student, right? Like, if you are a ninth or 10th grader, like, I still don't know what I would want to study. Or, you know what, this is a little bit interesting. You know, dive in more into that, take advantage of those courses. And sometimes that's how you find out potential majors or college that you've never heard of before, right? Because we tend to see the typical majors that students apply to our psychology, political science, guess what? There's a lot more options out there. And sometimes diving in, into getting exposed to some of these themes and topics within these courses, can help you see what else is out there at colleges, like those unique majors that you didn't, that you didn't know that existed for Tom Campbell 31:09 sure. Next area here is language. So that's an often an area where a lot of times, I would say anecdotally, you know, as someone who read 1000s of college applications, both the essays, but also the academic component is this is going to be the area where students most frequently step back from completing four years in high school of a particular language level. It might be because the student reached the highest level of a language, and they do what we call it, they maxed out. So they reached Spanish four by the time they were a sophomore. So they finished the sequence of that particular language that's oftentimes for many colleges and universities, including those highly selective schools, that is going to be something that generally they're okay with. You know, they prefer the four years, and they might actually be really, really inspired and kind of really look at you with a really high degree of wow. This is a really motivated student who's really curious about other cultures and languages and worlds. If you say, for example, you max out in Spanish, but you decide, hey, my school offers Chinese. I'll take you know, the introductory two years of that for my junior and senior year. That's not completely out of the question when it comes to your high school experience. But on the flip side, if you're like, I'm not excited by languages at all these are the areas where I can't wait to be done. That's real. You know, we all have kind of the areas that we more naturally gravitate towards. It's always, kind of eternally, asking yourself that question of, How much does my distaste or my feeling of being uninspired by a subject, how much does that feeling supersede my future goals? Because if you do have these institutions that you're applying to that you're really excited about, that's a really big end goal for you. Sometimes making that little compromise and taking a course in a language area, even if it is in your favorite and even if you want to double up in that math subject. Instead, just be reminded that depending on your college list like that is something that someone on the admissions end is going to discuss about that choice. Well, we've, we've reached the top, the top five, those five core solid academic courses. But, of course, us high school students are like, well, that's not all I take. I also have arts courses I'm taking. There's, you know, visual and performing arts courses that are offered at my school, and I have a certain number of required years of that, you know, physical education. How does that factor into your college process? Do you have anitya? Any advice for students who are wondering, okay, well, these are also something I have to do to graduate. But like, what do colleges think about this? I think Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 33:35 the arts are a beautiful field to really inspire imagination, creativity in a way that is very different from the creativity you be doing an engineering project, right? And I think, you know, I was a band kid growing up all the way through college, and so for me, like music was important. And so I had peers growing up who, like they did their two years or their one year, and then they dropped it and go ahead drop it and understand what else is going to take what else are you going to take on, or what else is available to you. Or sometimes there's a conflict in schedules, and that's very real, right? I want to do that extra year of my Visual Performing Arts. However, in conflicts with my AP class that I really need for my major prep or whatever, I think it's understanding, okay, maybe do take the AP, but find an outlet, or an alternative outlet, of how you're going to continue with your interest in that art field, right? I think there's different ways that students can still be involved and engage in in their arts, whether it's music, performance, dance, painting, photography, film. I think there's different ways that students can still acknowledge that that intellectual curiosity and that passion and interest in ways that are maybe not, as you know, in the classroom setting. So I think understanding what is available. What you can still do. And sometimes we have students that go to school that that's the only way that they continue, that that outlet, because there's nothing else in their communities. I think that becomes more of a conversation again, with the people at your high school, right? Your counselor, your parents, and I think it's maybe again, contacting that admission reps talking to them at the college fair. Is this okay? What do you think? I think arts again, have a little bit more flexibility, but I think it's a field that shouldn't be just discarded. Tom Campbell 35:31 Yeah, you were a band kid. I was drama kid, which you're probably like, not surprising, but no, I think with art that you know, sometimes if you do end up having these college aspirations and major goals, but you still love art and you still want to continue that. You can do that on an extracurricular level, you know, it's obviously, it's not the same, necessarily, as an actual class, and that has a particular cadence to it, and a rhythm and breaking up your day or your week, you know, in terms of, kind of, maybe some of these, more, these other classes that are using different sides of your brain. But I would say this is probably one of the areas where once you kind of meet those requirements for your high school, unless you are planning on majoring in an art area. It's probably an area where you can step away. You know, you don't have to necessarily have all four years of it, but electives is the last area that I would say, you know, again, these are going to be areas where it depends on your interest level and the offerings in your school, because at some of you might be coming from high schools where you have some really unique opportunities, right? And that said, I would still argue that they don't. That doesn't, that doesn't mean that those should supersede or replace those core areas depending on your college aspirations and path. Now let's close things out talking about grades. And it's funny that we're saving this to like the last final hour of the podcast. But the reason why I think that is important is because I have to say this is the area of the college process that it's a little bit of kind of like a catch 22 because yes, it is listed as number one as the most important factor in the admission process. That does not mean that it should dominate 99% of your mental energy and life and all the questions you have around your college process, because I would argue, and Niti, I'd be curious to hear your perspective that this tends to be the area where scrutiny and overthinking and kind of like the 1b plus you got in sophomore year Chemistry on your report card for the first quarter is rolling off my entire trajectory and plans. That is not the case. Nope. That I think is an over simplification of a particular grade dictating your entire future life. So in general, we're going to go through a rapid fire series of questions, particularly mostly around grades. Question number one is, how do colleges evaluate my courses, grades and transcript? Lucky for you, we have a whole episode that covers a lot of this and insight from how admissions readers look at this, speaking as a co host of said episode, so we've referenced it a couple times, but now, but Episode 403, AP, IB honors, Oh my How admissions officers view your high school courses, rigor and school context. We talk a lot more about kind of the overarching way that people in the admissions side of the desk actually look at some of those choices that we just described in this episode today. So if you want to deep dive into that admissions lens, that is the episode for you. Number two, do I have to get all A's to have a chance or a slash? Should I stress about getting all A's? Yeah, what do you think? Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 38:28 Well, I don't like the word stress. I think sometimes our students are putting a lot of pressure and unnecessary stress in their lives, given that we understand admissions in some schools, and I think that's the key writing in some colleges. Selectivity is crazy. The competitiveness to get accepted is like, wow, right? And I think it's there is a college for everybody. There is a place where you'll be, where you'll feel you'll belong, where you'll be successful. And I think, to that end, in my opinion, you don't have to get all A's. You do have to do well in your courses, right? I'm not saying go and get C's and D's and, you know, just closed, I think, push yourself. Be inspired to learn. You know, start developing those soft skills. And do, you know, put your best effort and understand what resources you need to be successful. And if you're not getting that a understand why reflect on it so that you can address it in your college application. Tom Campbell 39:30 Yeah. So totally plus one. And you know, exact question of like, do I have to No, obviously, not to have a chance, no, a chance at where that's the bigger question. You know, there are some of these really, really, really tough schools to get into that the majority of applicants will be having always and so just being aware of what you're bringing to the Pollock and what they have to and know that you aren't being compared to every single student in every single high school, but if there are students. Are applying from your high school, or have historically applied who have had all A's, and that's typically what's admitted. You have a little more insight into it's going to be a little more difficult for you just based just completely being honest, right? But that is a very small list of schools, point 00, something percent of the entire US college education system and ops and so no, getting all A's is not absolutely the the end all be all when it comes to being a competitive college applicant and having amazing options. How do colleges evaluate your GPA? Is it more important to focus on weighted or unweighted? I'll tackle this one. Basically. The general rule of thumb is that most US colleges will use these grading scale and weighting scale that your high school reports to. Your high school is going to send to the admission team a scale through the school profile. The school counselor is going to fill out information that shows, okay, this is the highest GPA in our particular high school, and the college is going to have historical information. Typically, you might be the first applicant from a high school, and then, cheers, you're the guinea pig. And that doesn't mean you have a disadvantage. That's when I say that, but they'll have a historical records of what's a high GPA for your particular school. So when this is probably the area, my biggest piece of advice with this is like, please, please, please, do not stress out about other people's GPAs at other high schools that are not relevant to you whatsoever, because it really has no bearing on your process. There are certain colleges that recalculate and re they calculate a normalized GPA for all applicants. So the University of California system, or nits, sharing with me that she has read, is a school that does that as a school system that does do that, but in general, most colleges, I would say, are going to use the scale that your school offers. So if a school offers a both a weighted and an unweighted GPA, it's typically going to be that weighted one that has is going to be the one that's discussed and evaluated alongside other applicants from your high school currently or historically. We use that same scale. So hopefully that makes sense. Number Three should be like, I should actually number these, because I'm like liking on this. It's actually number four, what's more important? A high GPA or challenging courses. I think Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 42:09 it's a balance of both, right? I think we want to see if we're excelling in and you're doing well in all your courses, but there's no rigor. And I think there's a difference between your school doesn't offer that versus they offer it and you're not taking advantage of those opportunities. That's different. That's a different scenario. So can you maintain a high GPA with challenging courses? And I think that's the secret sauce a little bit right, of can you how can you blend both so that you are being successful in getting that high GPA as you're challenging yourself. And that's a really some for some students, it can be a fine line. For some students, it's a walk in the park. And this technology is that every student is different. Every high school is different. So it's not, I don't think it's an or I think it's a how do you a blend both Tom Campbell 42:59 totally, yeah. And I would say this goes along with the the eternal question that everyone in admissions has perceived as when a life which is, is it better for me to get a B in an A, P i b honors course or an A in a regular course? And some people will snarly reply and say, Get the A in the honors a, p i b course. But these are real, kind of hypothetical questions that never come up in an admissions setting. There's always more to the story behind your transcript and what's you know, what's happened there? And there's always spaces in your application to explain any of those fumbles or missteps, or we know that sometimes maybe there's a way that the teacher was teaching the material that was challenging for you. Maybe there's a way to kind of talk about what was happening in your personal life or otherwise that resulted in that grade being what it was. There are definitely ways to give more context. Is the word that people in admissions use to that particular grade, but in terms of what's more important, it's really not a it's not a this or that. It's a this and that, yeah, Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 43:59 and you know, if you're if you're college, or the place you're looking at to apply, ask for letters of rec, right? You have a Google rapport with that teacher where you took that IP, maybe got a B or B plus, but you did well in that class, because you push yourself, you showed up like have them write you a letter of rec, right? And give that additional context from your teacher to support you in showcasing No. It wasn't because the student was slacking off like they were awesome. Tom Campbell 44:24 Yeah, totally. That's a great piece of advice. All right, do I need to increase rigor every year? Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 44:30 I think what the word that's kind of I was like, What do you mean by need, right? And that's a question I would ask the student they came into my office. What do you mean by need, right? I think there we can impact that and say, Should you Yes, given context of where you are, what you need, what we offer, making sure that we can balance it's manageable. What other responsibilities do you have? What other duties do you need to accomplish are again, are you taking care of someone? Are you working? Are you an all star, like, volleyball player, right? Like, where all of that in context I would work with as soon as to figure out, can you and should you? And so I think the need is a little bit, you know, Oh, do you need to, let's, yeah, Tom Campbell 45:15 totally Yeah. I think need is very ambiguous for it. I guess you could say, All right, so number six, should I be exceeding the rigor limits at my school through other means, like taking summer classes or online courses? They think about Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 45:32 that. This one's a tough one. I think one of the questions I would ask a student or a parent or family, if they're sitting with me, it's just like, Why? Why do you want to exceed the limits? What's happening? Right? And sometimes I get it. It comes from the pressures of going to, you know, a brand name school. It goes to the pressures of competitiveness with their class, with their with your peers, but, you know, the daughter and so and so, like, I understand that at the same time, I think we need to be able to prioritize the well being of our students and our teenagers, and understand that sometimes our schools make decisions because they understand what a student needs to be successful. And it's not just academic success. Success is the success of the teenager, right? There's so many things that are happening that they should still enjoy how to be a teenager right now, if a student is succeeding and excelling and kicking by in everything and doing everything they can and they want to do that extra summer course. Hey, you know what? Let's talk about it. Let's figure out what makes sense go for it. But I think it's such an individual piece of advice that there's so much more to that, you know, we don't want to push our students to limit where they're not sleeping, they're not eating, they're strung out, they're burnt out, that by the time they get to college, they're done right? And we don't want them to do that. And so, I don't know, I think, I think schools have limits for a reason. Some other schools don't have, cannot afford to do that, because they don't. That's all they offer. So I think it's all in context completely. Tom Campbell 47:07 Yeah, I think there's a great initiative out of Stanford called challenge success, run by Dr Denise Pope, and it's all about there are many high schools that have basically had challenge success come into their school and make recommendations around things like course limits and, you know, planning out the schedule and study blocks, so that way students are not over setting themselves and they do, typically tend to be students who are coming from schools I know in the Bay Area, you know where you live, there's a lot of high schools where academic pressure is incredibly intense. And those limits, like you said, are there for a reason, and are designed for your health, wellness and balance, and they give you time and space to improve those other soft skills and values and qualities that colleges are also looking for. Yes, grades are one and two, but remember, they're the foot in the door with your application process. They don't swing it open for you. There are other things that you need to be communicating and showing to colleges that you have thought about and developed beyond only courses and grades all day, every day, plus through the summer, figuring out Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 48:07 like what they're bringing on campus, and from the high school side, is we understand that colleges have their institutional priorities. Are trying to build their class every year of what they need, what they offer. They're looking at students as people, and so that's great. You got a 4.5 you took all these APS, you you know, you took pet like, awesome. What else are you bringing, right? How developing, you know, compassion, all these skills that are important for students to be successful, and are you going to take advantage of the resources that the campus is offering? Right? So there's all these different things, of like, you know, maybe, maybe go volunteer, maybe do community service, maybe explore something else that you haven't had a chance to do, instead of pushing a limit on another academic thing where take a pause, right? You're going to be going to school for the next four years, and if you continue for, you know, graduate degree, you'll be in school forever, like, enjoy some of those moments and do something else Tom Campbell 49:06 completely. Yeah, and actually, shameless plug for, in fact, you said, kind of positive character attributes like compassion and generosity and entrepreneurship and all these different things. Stay tuned for the next episode after this, which is going to be actually all about positive character attributes, which in this year's Knack act report is listed as the third most sought after quality in a college application, even ahead of essays, even ahead of recommendations, even ahead of extracurricular activities. So stay tuned for that. We're not just saying it. Expect it's backed up by science research. Number seven, what about class rank? Am I disadvantaged if my school does not rank students, we Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 49:47 don't rank at our schools. And I think that's some schools are this is a divide, right? Some schools are no longer ranking. Some schools continue to rank. And again, I think what you explored in the episode with Susan, I. They talk a little bit more about context in the school profile, and so if you need more clarification as you're filling out the common app, for example, again, talk to your college counselor. Figure out what's the best way to fill that piece of information out. Tom Campbell 50:13 Yeah. I mean generally, the piece here is that what the choices that your high school has made for you as a student and your student population are ones that the admission team is not going to question or penalize you for. They're not going to go and say, well, you should have went to the principal and demanded that they rank students, because you would have been ranked number one so you missed out. Never in my life have I ever heard a phrase like that or a thought pattern or logic along those lines. What they what the admissions officer does want to know, though, is how, is, how has your performance stacked up in comparison to the broader peer group at your high school? And usually, high schools communicate lots of different information, like you said, just said in the school profile, whether that's a grade distribution chart or, you know, they just don't list any information about rank at all. The high school that I worked out we gave no information about it. It would just be the historical information that a college keeps on their end of students, grades and GPAs and things like that that they would have a sense for what's a high GPA at insert name of school ranked not necessarily essential to make that decision. Number eight, my school offers a combination of advanced courses, honors, AP, IB and or dual enrollment. Dual enrollment with community college classes might be better for admissions, right? Question mark, Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 51:31 it depends. Dual Enrollment is is a tricky one, right only because it depends on what colleges you're applying to and where the community college are you trying to get college credit? Are you trying to get high school credit right? What are you trying to fulfill with this dual enrollment course in California, specifically, like our colleges, have articulation agreements with community colleges that they're able to evaluate if it meets a requirement or another course on our campus, because they have that communication. Now, if a student from here goes out of state, it depends on the college, or they'll take it and give them college credit or not. Most often they'll be like, Oh, it's rigor. You push yourself. That's great. You might still have to retake that course because they want to make sure, especially the private schools, or they want to make sure that you're taking the courses there. They want to make sure you're completing the four years there. And so it really depends on on why you're taking that dual enrollment. What is it fulfilling? What makes sense? So it's all in context and an individual kind of guidance with that student and family, Tom Campbell 52:40 100% Yeah, and I would say with the dual enrollment question too, though, the one other thing I would mention, just like I really want to plus one and underscore the point you made about what is it fulfilling? Because community colleges offer hundreds of classes, so many cool, exciting options, but some of them are not in course subject areas that are really essential to all the advice that I mentioned before about those five solid course areas, just because the class is dual enrollment, if it's not in a course subject area, it wouldn't, in my opinion, be a replacement for an advanced placement biology class if you're taking kind of a really, you know, technical or specialized or, like an ultrasound class, for example, that wouldn't be a replacement for an AP Biology class in your high school, even though it's a college level class, Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 53:24 yeah, not. And just like the articulate the articulation agreements at community colleges have not all courses transferred to a four year right? And so just because you took, you know, a course in you know, Visual Performing Arts at the community college level might not fulfill the general ed breadth and the study of art, which is very different from the doing of art, right? So it really depends on what they're offering now, if there's dual enrollment, specifically now goes into the courses that the partnership that a high school and a community college have, and they offer it on campus at your high school, that can be a little bit different, because then there's been a little bit more of a making sure that the course meets a requirement, making sure that it's transferable. And so if you're going and taking the course at the community college, that's where it's like you want to make sure that you're taking the right course. Also, 100% Tom Campbell 54:15 number nine are AP and IB scores important, if my school doesn't offer AP courses, should I sell study for the exam? Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 54:24 I think, well, they can be right. Scores can be important, especially if you pass. I don't think I've heard and correct me if I'm wrong that if a student doesn't pass an exam, they get dinged on I think it's it becomes an added value, right? If they do pass, it's like, oh, they pushed themselves. They took it, they passed. Thing is, like an extra point, but they're not gonna get like, docked for not passing it. I think again, the stress and the importance of APs and AP scores is understanding if taking us if passing with a specific score, will grow. And to college credit, right? And I think that's where sometimes students I just want to take the AP because it does a GPA bump. I'm like, Yes, and right? The importance of APS is that you're passing so that it saves you time. It saves you money once you get to college. Now, not all schools offer AP or IB, and so some students do want to self study, because you don't have to take the course to take the exam. Also understand what it's going to take to be able to study to pass the discipline, the time it takes to study the what if you have questions? What if I have questions about this specific problem? Or how do I prep so knowing what resources you have to be able to prepare to pass, that's gonna take a little bit more advocacy and discipline and time management from you, again, a lot of the soft skills that we've been talking about, connect with your college counselor to figure out what's the appropriate level of path for you. Tom Campbell 55:58 100% Yeah. And I would also say, you know, when it comes to AP scores and taking the AP exam, especially if you're electing to take it, I used to work at a school that we we didn't offer AP courses, but the families and students were convinced that to be competitive in today's landscape, they had to self study and take the exam to keep up with other students at other schools, I would say this is a trend to not jump on that bandwagon if you're planning on applying to mostly very highly selective schools, because a lot of those schools, and you can check and see on each individual schools web pages how many AP credits they fulfill, but a lot of them Actually don't take very many, if at all, so you hustling and doing all this self studying and sacrificing other important areas of your high school experience for something that honestly is not really adding a lot of value to your particular college application journey and goals. Is no if you don't go to a school that offers AP classes, no person in admissions will even expect that you have a single score to report because you don't have AP classes to report on your report or your transcript. So just keep that in mind and know that under I understand the hustle to keep up with the Joneses. And you know, maybe you have friends who go to a AP high school and they have those scores, but if the colleges you're applying to, if it doesn't really impact your candidacy or give you any credit, it's really not something you need to stress yourself over. And the last one, number 10, how do I know what classes to take if I don't know what I want to study or where I want to go to college? This is kind of like the big like, this is like, the big like, kind of like, What's the word for it? You got to think about to philosophy, existential. This is a very existential question of like, How can I do if I don't know who? Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 57:50 Yeah, I mean, I think again, focus on those core subjects that we talked about. If there's any particular area of interest or passion and your school offers it go for it leaning on, lean in, into those areas of interest and passions. I think that's it can open up a whole new set of of likes and dislikes. It might help you figure out what you want to study or major in in college. It can figure out how you want to approach your extracurriculars or activities. And I think it's just really understand, take it year by year, right? There's there is time. It goes by fast, but there is time, I think that constant checking of like, am I meeting my know what your requirements are to graduate? Know what generally, what are those requirements that you need to take? And again, we went over this, right? Like, your English, your math, science, social that like that is you're not going to lose if you follow those basic kind of like minimums, Tom Campbell 58:48 for sure. And I would say too, you know, this is an area where your college list really can be really giving you a little bit of relief when it comes to that feeling of not knowing just quite yet where you want to specialize. And you know, we've talked a lot about how increasingly, in the US, there is a little bit of a move for students to feel like they want to specialize a little earlier than historically, in the past few decades. And you know that for some students, makes sense in their brain. They have an area they've identified. They start to lean into it. They start to build some of those, you know, hands on experiences that confirm, kind of like we mentioned with nursing, that they indeed do want to pursue it. But there's also so many college options out there, in the US, and this is a real privilege of actually the United States, the system is we do have options, like liberal arts colleges that are more meant for those students who are still discerning you have, usually until the end of your sophomore year of college to declare that major, so you have a little more time and resources, oftentimes, especially for many students who didn't have as many opportunities to do research or internships or get the hands on confirmation on the high school level, you have more time on the college end to be able to make up for that. Nietzsche, thank you. So much for spending so much time with me today to tackle this topic. I know it's a lot to get through, and I'm sure you know, hopefully we address some questions you had in the back of your mind, but I'm sure we also prompted a lot more questions that you may be sparking up. And in that case, as Nitya mentioned, talk to your counselor as much as they're available to you. Lean on resources like College Essay Guy, where we have dozens of blogs, podcasts, resources, YouTube videos that give a lot more elaboration and detail on many of the topics that we discussed today. And wishing you the best of luck is students, families tuning in with tackling course selection and grades and doing it in a way that honors the things you're curious about while also honoring those goals you have for yourself too. So thank Nitzya Cuevas-Macias 1:00:41 you so much. Thank you. This was so much fun. Tom Campbell 1:00:48 Thanks friends for listening. As always, you'll find the resources we discussed in the show notes. Keep an eye out for our next episode. What do colleges want? Part three, positive character attributes. What are they and how do you show them in your college application. Finally, are you on our newsletter yet? If not, it's the best way to learn about upcoming webinars and resources. And you can join by going to our home page, college sai.com All right, that's all we've got. Be well and stay curious. You. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
