503: What Colleges Want (Part 3): “Positive Character Attributes”: What Are They, and How Do You Show Them in Your College Application?

Show Notes

In today’s two-part episode, we’re delving into one of the potentially more confusing aspects of what colleges want — “positive character attributes” — which 65.8% of colleges give considerable or moderate importance. 

In part 1, I’m joined by Tom Bear (VP for Enrollment at Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology) and Bob Massa (former chief admissions/enrollment officer at Johns Hopkins University, Dickinson College and Drew University) to discuss:

• What are these positive character attributes? 

• Why are they important to colleges? 

• How do colleges decide which qualities to seek and how to evaluate for them? 

• How do students show these qualities in their application? 

Part 2 is with Trisha Ross Anderson, from the Harvard Graduate School of Education’s Making Caring Common Project, and we get into:

• How Making Caring Common helps colleges figure out what they are looking for 

• How some colleges are working to increase access and equity in admissions

• Advice to parents as they navigate this process with their students

Tom Bear has been working in college enrollment since 1987 at a variety of institutions, including as VP for Enrollment at University of Evansville, Senior Director of Enrollment at Notre Dame and now as the VP for Enrollment at Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology. He joined the Character Collaborative in 2017, served as Board Chair and will chair NACAC’s Character Focus Initiative.

Bob Massa got his Doctorate in Higher Education from Columbia, served as the chief admissions/enrollment officer at Johns Hopkins University, Dickinson College and Drew University and Co- founded the Character Collaborative in 2016. Although he has retired from full-time work after 45 years of campus-based work, he is an adjunct professor at the University of Southern California’s online masters program in enrollment management.

Trisha Ross Anderson has served on research teams at the Harvard Graduate School of Education for the past 13 years. She’s worked with the Making Caring Common (MCC) Project to help write reports including one called Turning the Tide that focuses on reform of the college admission process. She leads MCC’s college admissions initiatives with Richard Weissbourd and currently serves on NACAC’s Character Focus Initiative Advisory Council. 

Play-by-Play

• 0:00 – Meet Tom Bear and Bob Massa (Part 1)

• 2:12 – What do colleges mean by “positive character attributes”? 

• 3:55 – What are some examples of these “positive character attributes”?  

• 4:58 – Why is it important for students, parents, and counselors to think about these qualities?

• 7:16 – How do colleges decide what qualities they’re looking for?

• 12:04 – How do colleges evaluate students for these qualities?

• 13:09 – Example of a rubric on extraordinary commitment to others

• 19:10 – Why don’t colleges share their rubrics for what they’re looking for?

• 21:18 – What can students do to better understand what a particular school is looking for?

• 24:08 – How do colleges evaluate “character” in an applicant? 

• 29:58 – What is the high school profile and how is it used in a student’s evaluation?

• 31:20 – Why is it important to think about positive character attributes now?

• 35:56 – How can students demonstrate these qualities in their college applications? 

• 40:00 – What can parents do to help their students in this process? 

• 42:01 – Meet Trisha Ross Anderson (Part 2)

• 43:09 – What is the Making Caring Common (MCC) project?

• 44:37 – How is MCC working with colleges? 

• 46:17 – Why is it difficult to create a rubric for these qualities?

• 48:16 – How is MCC helping colleges decide on what they are looking for? 

• 52:45 – How is MCC helping colleges to increase equity and access in the college admissions process?

• 57:33 – Advice for parents on navigating this process with their students

• 1:01:31 – Closing thoughts 

ResourceS

• Making Caring Common

• Character Assessment in College Admission Guide

• Turning the Tide (2016): Inspiring Concern for Others and the Common Good Through College Admissions

• Turning the Tide II (2019): How Parents and High Schools Can Cultivate Ethical Character and Reduce Distress in The College Admissions Process

• How (and Why) to Uplevel Your School Profile Post-SCOTUS: A Guide for Counselors that Predominantly Serve First Generation, Low-Income and/or Underrepresented Students of Color

• How to Research Colleges Without Visiting a Campus

• How to Choose a College: A Step-By-Step Guide

• How to Use the Common App Additional Information Section: Guide + Examples

Ideas from Ethan for finding what you care about + finding content for your application: 

• Values Exercise (2 min)

• If you really, really knew me… (1 hr)

MCC / CommonApp Question Screenshot:

Show transcript

Ethan Sawyer  0:08  
Hey friends, welcome to the college essay guy podcast. So today's episode is part three of our what colleges want series. Our deep dives into the factors that colleges deem most important, according to the latest set of college admission report. In this episode, we're getting into one of the potentially more confusing aspects of what colleges want these quote unquote positive character attributes, which 65.8% of colleges give considerable or moderate importance. You might be wondering, What even are these positive character attributes? Why are they important to colleges? How do students show these qualities and how do colleges even come up with them in the first place? Well, good news. That's what we're talking about today. This is a two part episode. The first part is with Tom bear and Bob masa, whom I'll introduce in just a second. And part two is with Tricia Ross Anderson from the Harvard Graduate School of education making carrying common project. First, meet Tom and Bob. Tom bear has been working in college enrollment since 1987 at a variety of institutions, including as VP for enrollment at University of Evansville, Senior Director of Enrollment at Notre Dame, and now as the VP for enrollment at Rose Hulman Institute of Technology. He joined the character collaborative in 2017 and served as the board chair and is going to chair NAC X character focus initiative. Bob masa got his doctorate in higher education from Columbia served as the chief admissions enrollment officer at Johns Hopkins, then Dickinson College and Drew University. And he co founded the character collaborative in 2016. Even though Bob retired from full time work after 45 years of campus based work, he is currently an adjunct professor at the University of Southern California's online master's program in enrollment management. Hope you enjoyed this conversation, Bob. And Tom, welcome to the podcast.


Bob Massa  2:08  
Thanks for having us, Ethan.


Tom Bear  2:09  
Yeah, appreciate it. Glad to be here.


Ethan Sawyer  2:12  
So one of the things that just to holler back to the episode that sort of set things up, there are these things called positive character attributes. And these weren't a thing that MCEC was tracking for years and years. And once they started to be tracked, they're suddenly very important. You know, in fact, after grades, and course rigor, being number one, this was suddenly number two. So I'd love to hear, you know, from either of you, what are these positive character attributes, maybe maybe some of you could start.


Tom Bear  2:47  
I think what we want to think and everyone has was looking for kids that bring a lot to their college campus that are going to really add to the vibrancy of the institution. So when you think about this, though, I think you also have to think about it in the context of the institution itself. Because schools, universities are really driven by their mission, and their vision statements. And in each of those cases, they do have different purpose, which helps align with the student body that they want to build that vibrancy, then there are certain characteristics that they want inherent in those students. And that's what they want to pursue, again, to build that that sense of, you know, an exciting dynamic learning environment. So, for example, you could have a school that is right, tied to a religious mission statement. And there could be within that context, you know, there's there's certain character mystics that they're looking for, like empathy or integrity or social justice. And those are things that they would want to expound and their recruitment, their messaging when a student is there on campus and being recruited, and then that they also look for in the enrollment and the building of the first year of class.


Ethan Sawyer  3:55  
Bob, what what examples can you think of when it comes to these positive character attributes?


Bob Massa  4:00  
Ethan First, I would go back to my the beginning of my long career back in the 1970s, at Colgate University, when I was on the admissions and financial aid staff there. And actually, we have two ratings that we add to each student applicants. One was an academic rating, and one was a personally. And the personal rating was made up of activities that students may have had. And even though we didn't call it character, there were attributes of character that we looked at such as giving back to others and leadership and perseverance and continuity in terms of where their interests lie. Were they inactivity for just one year? Were they sustaining that throughout throughout their four years in high school? So this really isn't new. It's a new label, but it really isn't new, per se. Tom,


Ethan Sawyer  4:58  
why is it important for Steve And and parents and counselors, you know, who support students through this process to be thinking about these, quote unquote positive character attributes these qualities?


Tom Bear  5:09  
I think it's it's multi dynamic in the fact that as a student goes through the college search process, they want to do a kind of reflective analysis of themselves. And think about there's, there's so many schools, so many great institutions out there, and how do they find that one? That's going to align with not just their their goals for admission, but that long term perspective? So again, thinking about a student that may have a strong interest in environmentalism and social justice, thinking about what are those options out there? So these are characters characteristics that are in traits that I have inherent, and I'm presenting in my application for admission. So thinking about, okay, what are schools that are out there that look for those same types of qualities, again, based upon what we talked about that mission of the institution, that reason for purpose, as Bob talked about, but I think at the same time, if this is important to that student, now, they want to find that school that's going to help grow, foster mature and develop those traits within themselves. So it's about building that sense of community on the college. So as an admission counselor, myself, have a lot of enrollment goals, Chief enrollment officer, I have lasted goals that I want to achieve every year. Many of those are numeric. But to me, ultimately, the biggest thing that I'm building is my community of scholars here on this campus right here. And those are scholars that, again, as Bob mentioned, are contributing to the learning environment, creating the dynamic in the classroom within that context there. So when I come into an institution, as a student, and I know there's certain goals that I have, based upon where my interests are, and where I want to go, I want to find a classroom and institution and environment that continues to foster that, that I find peers that also share those common goals. So it's that, again, that that multi dynamic of not just finding the admission to the institution, but finding that place where I'm going to thrive for my four years, that will then also set me up for a career or a path that I want to pursue.


Ethan Sawyer  7:16  
Bob, talk to me, how do colleges decide what qualities they're looking for? And then how do they actually evaluate for


Bob Massa  7:22  
those qualities in a number of ways, colleges have already decided what they're looking for when they articulate their values, their mission, and the vision that they have for their students and for their future. And so, you know, once they have done that, then you can pretty much tell from that, and I think Tom alluded to earlier, what colleges really are seeking in, in their students. And again, you know, if a college was started, as with a great commitment, commitment to social justice, they're going to be looking for students who are demonstrating that if college started, as I mentioned earlier, with a commitment to innovation and creativity, we're going to be looking for students who have that, if they're a work oriented college like Berea College, for example, in Kentucky, they're going to be looking for students who have a good work ethic. You know, I could go on and on with examples here, but that but the bottom line is, if a college articulates its values, which you can find on many college websites, and you can find a mission statement on most college websites, that's that's where you're going to find out what a college is really looking for.


Tom Bear  8:34  
I was gonna say what I think about the work that I was able to participate in at prior institution and current institution and the way that we really went through and said, Okay, how do we define those character traits that are important to us, is through a lot of questions and a lot of answering. So in both places I've been we sat down with faculty, and we started off with talking about the students in your classroom, who are the ones that really make for a dynamic learning environment? And what were the traits? What were the things that those students brought into the classroom that really made that happen? After that, we went to student life residence hall staff, and we had basically similar questions, who are the ones who are active on campus who are involved, who, again, who make this place, who build the community's sense of community on the campus. After that, we've talked with alumni, and we, what we did is we listened to their stories, and we had a sense of who those individuals are, what they brought. And I think, you know, the key in that aspect is when we talked about successful alumni, this wasn't always just related in terms of so who made the most amount of money, it's the ones who really lived out that mission of the institution later on in life, you know, who took what we wanted to do, what we wanted to grow an individual to be as a student, and then how they accomplish that through once we able to collect that type of information. Again, this is listening to Dean's and to faculty members and you know, Vice present in student affairs, so again, a lot of just listening in, and then start to hone in on. Okay, well, what are those characteristics that we think are starting to emerge, to go back to those same populations and say, This is what we think is important from what we've heard you say, and let them affirm that, and then help us define what those characters so describe what those character traits are. So that we get that sense of if we talked about, for example, we need students who have a sense of responsibility or resilience. What does that mean for our culture? What does responsibility mean here? What does resilience mean here for students, so defining that to the institution itself. And once we were able to do that, and then we had a good description, because that description is critically important, because that's what we're going to ask the admissions counselors to look for, as they read those applications for admission, we have to sit with them. And do I guess you would say, for lack of better group therapy, or group work, to how do we go into the applications and find those, those types of traits. So going back to past years applications, reading those, finding those traits in there, and then getting examples of where we can find those and what they mean. And then ultimately, how we want to score. And that can really differ from institution to institution. Because some may be looking for just there's representation of it, or other institutions may say there's now a representation of this, but it's to a certain degree, you know, at a high level, or medium level, a low level. So every institution has a little bit different aspect of it. But to me, the character trait analysis that has to be done is really based upon just a lot of listening, to hear what is important to again, build that, that community of learners on our campus that are going to help us achieve the mission that we have with the institution, and then going back to our admissions counselors and training them up. So they have that ability to find that discern that, pull that out of the student's application for admission, identify it, recognize it, and pull that forward when they do the the admission rate.


Bob Massa  12:04  
And where we find that is the recommendations, in essays in interviews, if if a student participates in an interview, and again, as Tom suggested, it's very important to train the staff, there'll be differences between institutions on how they evaluate, but within an institution, it's got to be consistent. And whether it's, they have this character trait, yes, or no, you know, one, or zero, or whether it's, they have this character trait to an extent where it's a five with five high or it's a two, with zero being low, they'll construct their own sort of glue group. And again, some of this is subjective, but we try to make it as objective as we can, by listing those character traits that we're looking for. And then finding them in at least those those three elements that I mentioned, the three parts of the application that I mentioned, the recommendation, the essay, and an interview. And I guess the fourth one would be evidence from the activity list.


Ethan Sawyer  13:09  
Alright, so for folks listening, who are thinking, Gosh, just give me the rubric. First of all, I'll say and I think I'm hearing from you all, that there is no be all in all rubric that is like the magic key as it were. But I do want to look at one particular rubric. And this comes from the making Karen komen project at Harvard University's Graduate School of education. And essentially, this is for those of you who are maybe driving and you can't click on a link, we'll put in the show notes. But if you can't click on this, I want to read through this, and then talk about it a little bit. So here's a rubric for, for example, extraordinary commitment to others. And at the top, there's a note that says readers are expected to look across the entire application, as you've just said, Bob, including essays recommendation letters to ascertain this information. So the first potential rating is poor. And if it's a poor rating, it says here, the application provides very little to no evidence that the student is committed to others. Applicants that score poor may have no formal or informal service to others listed, no mention of commitment to or supportive others in letters of recommendation, essays, etc. If it's a fair rating, it says The application provides minimal evidence the student is committed to others, maybe very limited scope of you know, say family commitment, limited involvement in a formal or informal other focused activities. So we've gone from no commitment, no evidence to very little evidence. If it's a good rating, it says application provides some substantive evidence to students committed to others. So it could be some sort of meaningful family commitment, for example, supporting the family income or taking care of younger siblings or maybe it's a mix of activities that promote the applicants experience or learning while simultaneously promoting care or concern for others. If we're looking at an excellent rating, in this particular case, category, the application provides deep and sustained evidence the student is committed to others. So for example, a long term family commitment, maybe there's deep involvement in formal or informal activities, a clear pattern of commitment to others. And then we've got something called the exceptional reading, which is the application provides extraordinary or truly exceptional evidence the student is committed to others. So it could be extraordinary involvement in formal or informal activities. So regular volunteering, maybe even coordinating involvement, an exceptional or rare pattern of commitment to others across all application materials. And then letters of recommendation are essays that greatly emphasize the students commitment to helping or supporting others. So hearing that, maybe I'll kick it to you, Tom, what would you like folks to keep in mind as they're thinking about these rubrics?


Tom Bear  15:53  
Yeah, I think again, you know, every year when we we set these up, and we learn ourselves every year, we try and get smarter as we read applications for admission, we're trying to take in these the stories of the students, and we're trying to find better ways for students to present themselves. But at the same time, I would say, we can create a rubric, we put it into place. And then every year, what I have found, in my time, working in college admissions, every year is different, I have never experienced the same year from one to another. And every year, our applicant pool, at every institution I've been, will change, they could increase in size, a number, an academic program could all of a sudden become very popular, a new Scholars program gets introduced that changes the dynamic. So as that pool builds, as those applications come in, and perhaps you know, we've asked a new question in the application form, or perhaps the new tool is out there for ways for students to present themselves, it changes that pool and the way that the criteria that we use to read and review has to adapt to that current application pool on a yearly basis, we may even change what I would say in terms of our practices. So for example, you know, when COVID hit, our whole industry had to change very swiftly to become a test optional. Basically, test optional industry out there just test optional world of reading applications for admission, it helped us promote this whole sense of what's important to character, it elevated that, that context there, that really changed our world, and that in my mind, in a very positive way. But then all of a sudden, it elevated that concept there how important character is and how important it is in the reads different from when, you know, standardized test scores had a different level of importance. So I do agree with you, Ethan, I think, you know, when we read these, and we set these rubrics that are out there, and we apply them, but we're applying them to a dynamic application pool that changes every year. And it changes, again, because of application growth, or program and initiation are just changes that within our environment. But that's the beauty of the work that we get to do. You know, and I think that's what makes college admissions work. So exciting, because we reinvent on an ongoing basis. So these tools that we build are not static, they're not set in concrete, they have to have flexibility, because again, we're dealing with individuals and individuals change every year. And we're responding to those changes along the way.


Bob Massa  18:28  
Yeah, and I think I think parents and students want to know, okay, what's the formula? You know, what's the exact rubric that's going to evaluate my son or daughter? And the fact of the matter is, there really isn't one, you know, college admissions is as much of a science as people think it is, is really much more of an art, particularly in the highly selective institutions. You know, we're trying to sculpt the class, we're trying to build a class. And while yes, on the academic criteria, certainly, there are clear benchmarks that we're looking for, but on personal qualities, it's not as clear cut as parents and students would want it to be.


Ethan Sawyer  19:09  
And why do you think that as if you had to guess why don't colleges make it very explicit? Here are the things we're looking for? Here are the rubrics? Why isn't that out there and published on every single college website? Well, I


Bob Massa  19:19  
think two reasons. Ethan, that one Tom just mentioned, it changes from year to year. And I think the other is, colleges, admit students and weightless them and deny them for all sorts of reasons. Students tend to take this personal, you know, I'm not good enough to have gotten into this college. And that's, you know, very rarely the case. So for example, you know, a college on the East Coast has a ton of applications from kids from, you know, New York and New Jersey, for example, but not as many from Wyoming and Montana. And so, you know, kid who's really good student but maybe not as good as a couple from here. New Jersey or New York might get in before those kids because of the geographic diversity that a college desires. Is that fair? Well, we're trying to build a community. And so I think, you know, the bottom line for parents and students to understand is that there's no clear cut formula. And that's why colleges don't publish, it means sure, you know, we can publish or, you know, back in the day, we could publish our median LSAT scores, or the top 75%, bottom 25% score, we can publish and, you know, a median GPA, although that doesn't tell you very much, we can talk about the difficulty in curriculum that we expect our students to take. And we can also talk about, we want active students who are leaders. But beyond that, it's very difficult to to give any set formula, particularly in highly selective private colleges, that these institutions will use. And that's why we don't publish it.


Ethan Sawyer  20:56  
And we talked about this a little bit when we were prepping for this podcast, but there's probably to the danger that students would game the system, right? It's like, there's this sort of, you know, if X, Y, and Z are important, well, then suddenly, there are cottage industries that pop up around x, y, develop XY and Z so that you can get into que institution. But for those folks who are really like, but isn't there any way of knowing what's the best we can do, so to speak, in terms of knowing what a particular institution is looking for? Like, is there any research that folks can do to get some sense of how, what X college is looking for versus why College? Maybe one


Bob Massa  21:35  
way to do that is one way to do that is simply to ask, right? Ask the admissions officer ask the admissions counselor, what is it that you value? You know, we talked earlier about and Tom mentioned this about looking carefully at the mission statement, I talked about values that colleges often list on their on their website. But you know, from year to year, what we're looking for may change in some to some degree. So you know, one year, we may be looking for an unknown members of the debate team, because our debate team one, were runner up in the national champions ship last year, and now we really need to, and most of them were seniors, and that we need to stock the debate team another year, we may be looking for oboe players, or a student newspaper editors, for example. So that's going to change from year to year. So ask,


Tom Bear  22:23  
I would also say that I think schools are actually doing a better job of saying what they are looking for in their first year class in applications for admission, as I talked to my peers, I think we're taking this more to heart. And we're trying to be more explicit in terms of you know, go out and and look at our websites, see what we're saying about our institutions and the type of students that we want to attract. Look at our print pieces that are coming out there. Social media is another great see what's being promoted in social media by the institution, or the students themselves. I mean, there's a lot, a lot out there. That's available. I think the other big thing, though, for students to do in terms of this pursuit, in terms of what is it that we're looking for, and by mentioned this, I think, going to talk to the counselors, do a campus visit, attend to high school visit? What you know, college rep is there, go to the college fairs and ask the questions, what is it you're looking for. And I think those are important aspects for you to help make that assessment. If you do get that chance to do a campus visit, and again, I think this is so important, when you're there, don't also just listen to the admission staff. Go talk to a professor as you have that opportunity. When you're touring campus, talk to students about again, what is it that you find that really builds that sense of community or the type of students that are here? So I, I think there's two aspects. One, I think my peers are doing a better job formally presenting what it is we look for. But I think there's also a lot of other informal sources that we push out as institutions that talk about what it is about the type of students that we want to attract, and who are they on our campuses that do thrive and succeed? So let's talk about


Ethan Sawyer  24:05  
this word character for a second, because as we were prepping for this, that can be a tricky term, right. race conscious admissions was just struck down, you know, a few months ago, well, it's been half a year now. And one of the things the decision notes is that you know, nothing prohibits universities from considering an applicants discussion of how race affected the applicants life, so long as that discussion is concretely tied to a quality of character, or unique ability that the particular applicant can contribute to the university. Either of you, I'd love to hear you talk a little bit of that word character and how, as we talked about briefly before the podcast about how that word can be problematic sometimes. Before


Bob Massa  24:46  
I answer that question, let me first tell you about the organization that is now part of the National Association college admissions counseling, which was initially called the character collaborative is founded in 2016. To help Colleges and secondary schools, mostly independent secondary schools, the admissions officers of those institutions to include attributes of character and to assess attributes of character in the admission process. And so when we first founded that organization in 2016, and had our first conference, we tracked the deans and vice presidents from some of the most selective colleges in the country, the second year, a good number of them didn't. And the reason they didn't return is that they thought the word character was loaded. And that character was a buzzword, so to speak, for white privilege. And that was the exact opposite intention. Here, in fact, character is is not something that's exclusive to a socio economic group, or a racial group. It's inherent in a human being. And that's what we were really looking for. And the best example of that, and you read it through the rubric is when, when a young man or young woman cannot participate in school activities to the extent that they would like because they must stay home and take care of their grade school sibling, because they're single parents has a job from 3pm to midnight. And so they have to make dinner, they have to get their younger sibling ready for bed, read them a bedtime story, whatever. And, and they have to do that day in and day out. And, you know, that's more the case, I would think of a lower income family than then it would be of a wealthy privileged family. And so that kind of character sticks out in a college application.


Ethan Sawyer  26:42  
Yeah. And as we're thinking about this, isn't it true, that opportunities aren't equally distributed? Right? And so, Tom, I'll kick this one to you like, how are colleges accounting for this?


Tom Bear  26:53  
Yeah, one of one of my peers who I really just value, so much of what he talks about when we get into this realm, is the context of the student. And I like to think about it in the in the way of, so what is their high school? What are the resources available to high school? Or what is, you know, within their neighborhood or within their environment? What is what is it that they have access to, and that is definitely different in every situation for students. And I think this is really where it's so valuable about the training of the admissions counselors, because we spend so much time in their neighborhoods in their high schools and understanding where that student comes from that context of where that student comes from. And then how can that student then present those character traits that we look for, based upon, again, basically, their surroundings and their opportunities that they have available for them? You know, this is kind of a crazy example of this. But if you had two students who were applying for admission, to, let's just say, a highly competitive agricultural program, one students coming from rural area in Iowa, and can be a part of FFA, they're able to build a lot of character traits associated to you know that that hard work that resilience and different things in that context. Applying to that program, another peer who's applying to that program is coming from a large city, large public school, different different opportunities to grow those character traits. But even at the same time, that student who's coming from that large public school may be able to avail themselves to a richer academic curriculum that students from that rural community. So when we read these applications for admission, we're trying to think about each student in their own context. And that's so critically important to us, because we want to see how well they've taken advantage, or what they've had to do within that situation, to build those character traits. So the way that I can present my character traits will be different than what Bob, for example, would be able to because of the fact that we're in different high schools, were in different communities were in different family situations. And that's where the training of our counselors who read these applications for admission is so important. And that's why it's so important that we do put counselors on the road. And we do visit these high schools, and we spend time with the admissions as well as going out to the community based organizations. If we're going to do our jobs, well, we have to understand where a student comes from, and how that students in their own situation can present those traits that we're looking for and understand that there's differences in this way. So Bob's exactly right. Character is not some sense of what this is because of privilege. It's really about again, what are the opportunities that students had? And how did they then not just take advantage of it, but how did they live that every day, and that's what we're looking for in our applications in our weeds?


Ethan Sawyer  29:44  
One way I've heard this said that I really like is in the training for the University of California admission readers is, is the student making the most of the opportunities that have been made available to them? It seems to me that One important tool. And now speaking about the high school college counselors for a second, one important tool they can use is the high school profile in terms of giving context about the students community, the school community, will you say a little bit more about why the high school profile can be useful for advocating for students from the college admission officers perspective? And for those who are listening and maybe don't even know what a high school profile is? Will you tell us what that is? And how you think it maybe could be useful to help provide that context?


Tom Bear  30:33  
You know, I think when you look at high school profiles, you'll see you know, what percentage of students will go on to college? What could be standardized test scores, what percentage are free and reduced lunch? I mean, there's, there's a lot of demographic data that's presented in that number of AP courses that that school is able to offer, I those are all things that I think are important that tells us again, where is that student coming from?


Ethan Sawyer  30:56  
Yeah, one of the things that we'll share in the show notes episode is a guide for high school counselors who are, you know, interested in looking closely at the high school profile? And asking, you know, is my profile currently advocating for students as well as it could be, because I think that it's so important for counselors to share that burden, as it were, of offering the context of you know, who that student is in their community. Bob, let's start with you on this one. Why is thinking about these positive character attributes important now, from the student, slash parent perspective, and also from the college perspective,


Bob Massa  31:33  
so many colleges are test optional today, as we as we know, and as a result, colleges are looking obviously, at academic criteria, the courses that students take the grades that they get, but again, as Tom mentioned, that's contextual, some cause some high schools aren't offering as many honors and AP classes as others. And frankly, there's been significant grade inflation over the last 10 to 15 years and probably even longer. And grades at one high school and one area of the country aren't necessarily equivalent to grades another high school and so, you know, colleges then are looking beyond that into who this person is. And again, we're talking mostly about a highly selective institutions, colleges, and the majority of colleges, I might add, admit, way more than half of the students who apply. And so while character is important to them, it's less of a make or break situation for students than then it might be at a school, accepting 10% of the students or 20% of the students who apply. So it's important now for colleges, because we're trying to build a community we're trying to build, admit, rather a group of students that will feed off of each other that were learned from each other, where the professors are excited to teach them. And as a result, we look at these, what I will call non academic factors and jury of which your character to leave it in order to build that class. That's why it's important.


Tom Bear  33:04  
Ethan, I think we've also talked a lot about the admission decision, but there's another realm in this, and that's the upfront messaging that colleges do. So as we're introducing ourselves for the first time to a prospective student. And we're talking about who we are as a school. One of the aspects and Bob mentioned this, you know, we're, again, we're trying to build a community of scholars for that by vibrancy. So we should be talking upfront about what it takes, we those character traits that build that. So before we even get to make an admission decision, we want to be talking to students about who is the student that comes to our school, fits in and can succeed and excel in our learning space. And I think it's important for the students as they are digesting all this material, the emails that we send, the tip talks, the print materials, the letters, all this stuff. They're reading that for that kind of message that comes through so that they can say, Okay, who am I as a learner as a scholar, as a person? And is this the kind of community that I want to join, put my application for admission in? So you know, again, I can think about all the schools in the nation and there's definitely there's differences between them. And as that student is getting this information from hundreds of schools, as they read this information, start your own self discernment process, because there is a difference. And think about yourself at that institution, right up front and think about is this the right school for me to apply for? Before I even compete in the admissions process, just start thinking about is this the place that I want to be based upon what they're messaging to me? And I think that's what's that's also important in terms of why are these character traits so important? I think I think it helps the student make that decision on whether right schools for me to go to,


Bob Massa  34:53  
you know, one of the things we didn't talk about is that schools, colleges have character too. Right. You know, there's a call Walter there. And so it's important, you know, either through the campus visit or you know, extended conversations with current students there over over video chat or social media, for students to discern what the atmosphere is I one of the best ways, frankly, to do that, I think, is to go online and and read the student newspaper religiously, what are they talking about? What's important to them? So, you know, I, I know who I am, I think, am I going to fit into this institution? Does this institution have the culture? And dare I say the character that would fit with with Mica?


Ethan Sawyer  35:37  
Yeah, you mentioned, Bob, the potential of visiting and I'm such a fan, when students can do that for those students who are listening and who are like, but I can't visit or it's impractical, or, you know, it's unaffordable, I'm going to link in the show notes to a guide for how to research colleges without visiting a campus, including some of the advice that you're giving. So let's get practical here for a couple minutes is students who might be listening and going, like, how do I even figure out what these qualities are beyond like showing them in my application, and I'm going to link to two exercises, one is called the values exercise, which takes two minutes to do. And we'll start getting you think about what you really care about. And then the next one is an exercise called if you really, really knew me, that will take you, you know, I want you to spend at least half an hour on it, maybe you could spend an hour on it. But it's gonna walk you through 10 different, like sets of questions, you can begin to survey and think about your life and different experiences that have helped you develop these qualities that you could show in your application. I'd love to just hear from you all, maybe some examples of okay, if a student has x quality, how, practically speaking as specific as you want to get, does that come through in the application you've already mentioned? Broadly, you know, it comes through in the essays, it comes through in the recommendation letters, but maybe just give us a couple examples that come


Bob Massa  36:57  
to mind. You know, Ethan,


Tom Bear  36:59  
I would I always have noticed is what I tried to do when I read an application for admission is triangulate the data that I'm seeing. So I put the recommendations together with the essays with the student activities with the curriculum, so that I can see, okay, what I read in the essay, does that match up with the student activities, as well as the recommendations. So for example, I can think about cases where I may we read a letter of recommendation from a teacher who says, because the student was in my class, not only were they a great individual student, but they made the learning environment better for everyone else at that point in time. And then I can also say, okay, so what was the activities of the student, and I may see that the student was a mentor, freshman mentor, on, on the high school campus, where they were involved with, and then they may talk about in their essay, things where they were doing service, or they had empathy for others, because they found a need on their, on their campus, or their high school, and they stepped in to fill that need. Well, all of a sudden, I'm starting to triangulate and get this perspective of that student of who that individual is. So I think about the fact that when I'm reading an application for admission, I don't see the recommendation separate from the activities, from other parts of it, I try and pull them together and look at this individual and say, give me a sense of who this person is. So pulling it together to get that what we like to call a holistic read, really does come forward in that aspect.


Bob Massa  38:33  
So if we serve a faculty and two character traits come up as very important to them in the classroom, and the students they're teaching. And one of them is persistence. You know, we're we're teaching some difficult material here. And we want students to continue to work hard. So persistence is one. And the other is curiosity. You know, our students going beyond what they read and asking questions being critical. Are they helping one another, actually, in finding out more about the topics, then perhaps meet the AI? And so when I read an application, I'm going to be looking for those two things that persistence, might come out in an activity that a student has, you know, for example, a community service project in your own community, not, you know, an ad, although, you know, they, they need service too, but something in your own community that there was a roadblock, and yet, you know, you persisted and continue to develop that community service project, in spite of the obstacles that you faced, and I look for, for curiosity, as well. Did you go above and beyond in that particular service project or something else? So those are examples of traits that are character traits that are important to us, and how we might go about finding them in an application.


Ethan Sawyer  40:00  
What advice would you give to parents who are listening to this podcast?


Bob Massa  40:05  
You know, and I say this lovingly, we have to let our children make mistakes sometimes, because that's how they learn. And, you know, going through the college admissions process is, you know, it doesn't have to be as stressful as we make it out to be mean. You know, as I mentioned earlier, I mean, I don't know what the percentage is. But I would venture to say that 90% of the 20 204 year colleges and universities out there, public and nonprofit, private, are not highly selective. And yet, there are some really great ones out there that may be accepting, you know, 60% of the students who apply, let your kids run the process, you know, ask questions. I wouldn't nag them personally, you know, you might point them in the right direction, don't write their essays, you know, let them be themselves. And you know what, this is good training for later on. I mean, I have two adult children, I had seven grandchildren. And and I gotta tell you, it was very tempting to me early on in their adulthood when they first got married, for me to still pretend to be the dad that knows it all. And that's trying to help them, you know, negotiate, right? Well, I learned pretty quickly when my daughter became a mother at the ripe old age of 24. That I needed back off. And so I guess my advice to parents would be gonna have to back off sooner or later, now's a pretty good time. I love that.


Ethan Sawyer  41:33  
I love that last line, especially. Thank you. Thank you both. Thank you both for for the conversation today. I'm really grateful.


Bob Massa  41:40  
Thanks so much, Ethan. Really, really great to have gotten to know you over this is great. And you do wonderful work. Thanks so much. I'll


Tom Bear  41:47  
listen for your tire and Disney commercials to I'll look forward to it. I can't wait to get in the car and say I know that guy.


Ethan Sawyer  42:00  
My friends. So on part two of this episode coming at you in just moments, you'll meet Tricia Ross Anderson, who has served on research teams at the Harvard Graduate School of education for the past 13 years. She's worked with the making carrying common project, which you'll learn more about just a second dealt write reports, including one called Turning the Tide that focuses on reform of the college admission process. She leads making caring Commons college admissions initiatives with Richard whiteboard, and currently serves as NAC X character focus initiative Advisory Council. In our conversation, we get into how making caring common helps colleges figure out what they're looking for. Because yes, colleges are trying to figure themselves out to how some colleges are working to increase equity and access in the college admission process. Some advice to parents as they navigate this process with their students. And Tricia offers a word to students looking for the secret sauce in terms of what all colleges are looking for. Hope you enjoy.


Hi, Tricia, welcome to the podcast.


Trisha Ross Anderson  43:06  
Thanks so much for having me. Thrilled to be here. Yeah. So


Ethan Sawyer  43:09  
tell us what is the baking carrying common project give us give us some context,


Trisha Ross Anderson  43:14  
I'm happy to so making carry in common is a project of the Harvard Graduate School of education. We've been around for about 10 years. And most of what we do, there has almost nothing to do with admissions. Mostly what we do is work to promote caring and compassion and kids. And we do that by working with their caregivers, parents and educators. So if you go to our website, you'll see tips and tools, sheets and articles for promoting caring and compassion and child raising. So we got involved in the college admissions process about eight years ago, when we realize that every conversation we were having with families was coming back to college. Yeah, and we were hearing from lots of students things like we think colleges only care about our achievements. We don't know that they care that I'm a caring person. And that really concerned us because we are people, they care about caring. And we talked to a lot of smart admissions leaders that we know about this, and they were concerned too. So we worked with them. And we wrote a report called Turning the Tide. And turning the tide really has three goals. Its goals are to elevate ethical character in admissions to reduce excessive achievement, pressure and admissions, and to increase access and equity in the admissions process. And, again, this report was written with admissions leaders and ended up being endorsed by about 300 college admissions readers. And we have been doing work in those spaces, the spaces that are aligned with the goals of the report ever since.


Ethan Sawyer  44:37  
Great. So Tricia, practically speaking, how is making carrying common working with colleges? And


Trisha Ross Anderson  44:43  
there's a lot of different things that we're trying to do. We've covered a lot of ground in the last six years around those three different goal areas of the report, but I think your listeners may be interested in some of our non cognitive assessment work we're doing with colleges and you know, so for folks that may not know when I say noncognitive a assessment work, I mean things like how colleges are looking at character, how they're looking at social emotional learning skills, how they're looking at 21st century skills, those sorts of things, really all the things that it takes to be human, and how colleges are looking at those reviewing those things in the college application process. And this is important to us for a couple of reasons. First of all, of course, this stuff matters. There's a lot of good research that suggests these skills matter for life and for school. But also the stuff is really hard to measure, it is hard to measure in general, researchers will tell you it's hard to measure, it's also really hard to measure as part of the admissions process. Again, we're talking about measuring the complexity that it is to be human at trying to do this in a sink to boil down way. So this is really, really hard to do. So we want to support colleges in doing this in a way that is research base that is objective, that is clear. And that is inclusive, it really is building on the experiences of diverse students and diverse experiences in lots of different students. And we've learned this from our collaborations with lots of different colleges over the last six or seven years, we've done surveys, we've done interviews, lots of lit reviews, none of this is rocket science, it's really just being really thoughtful and thorough, and objective and basing it in what we know from the research.


Ethan Sawyer  46:17  
Yeah, I feel a real kinship with you in trying to sort of take something that's as complex as like being human, and like, how do we develop a rubric for it when we're assessing? You know, folks potential, in particular guard, you know, I've encountered that problem, even around like the personal statement, when people have asked me, like, I need a rubric for the personal statement. And I'm like, the personal statement defies rubrics, you know, or at least that's kind of that was my position for a while. And then I was like, Well, I guess I could maybe come up with some qualities that are, you know, common to, you know, different personal statements. But I've resisted it, because I feel like and I could see this being problematic with rubrics that colleges create, is that if we get really specific and granular with these qualities, why then students are going to obsess about and try and figure out how to how do I just get that quality? Whatever it is intellectual vitality, or how do I demonstrate? Fill in the blank, you know, and I also like, the word the language is problematic, like when I've tried to say vulnerabilities important students are like, well, and I'm like, okay, not exactly vulnerability in every sense of the word, you know. And the other thing is that I think, you know, it just becomes the thing that folks gamify in certain senses, right. So I don't know, I'm curious if you've seen any of that, or if y'all have encountered that in your conversations? Yeah,


Trisha Ross Anderson  47:33  
I do think the language matters. I mean, that's part of the reason we kind of go back to the research. But I think part of it is that colleges aren't all looking for the same thing. I think that's an important distinction. I think if all colleges were looking for six things, then I think you're right, then we would probably see a lot more game gamifying. I'm not sure if I'm saying the right word, but we'd see a lot more of that. But I think part of part of the opportunity here is that this is really about fit, to some extent, the different colleges are looking for different skills are looking for different experiences. And so in that way, you know, it's really about alignment, it's about finding the college that has looking for the values that the skills and experiences that that you are bringing to the table. My


Ethan Sawyer  48:16  
understanding is that part of what making carrying common is doing is trying to help colleges think through what it is they're looking for. How are y'all doing that? Yeah,


Trisha Ross Anderson  48:26  
I mean, I think that, you know, in most, most big time colleges have a strong sense of this, right? This is this is part of College's mission statement, it's often part of their values. So what a lot of times is kind of the easy work that colleges say like yes, we already we already know, we value, I at least, at least in a rough way, if you don't know what they're looking for, we have some tools available to help them with that, then this is an example of one tool that's available on our website, I should say that all of our tools are available for free, they're downloadable on our website to anyone, so you can go check it out. One of these tools is called a thriver study. And I think it's really cool. It's, you know, it's an opportunity for a college to basically study who is thriving at our institution. So you kind of do an independent study with faculty, with staff, with students, and really who are the most successful students at our institution. And then you can look for those students look for the qualities and traits and experience of those students in your applicants moving forward. And it's a nice process, because the really inclusive process, we as a campus are agreeing that these are the successful traits of students that we are are going to look for moving forward. So it's, so that's kind of a process that colleges could go through, if they're not sure what they're looking for. But I want to stop for a second and say that that's really for me, just step one, then once you've identified what you're looking for, that's a really good first step. But I think again, that is just step one, because let's say you identify what you're looking for, let's say that it's grit, my definition of grit and your definition of grit as to admission readers could be very, very, very different based on our Our life experiences. So I when we work with colleges, the getting to a what is it is just step one, we got to define it. And that's really important. One of the other tools we have available on our website is a tool that helps colleges think about definitions. But one thing we want colleges to have is a research based definition. But also why does it matter? Like why are we thinking about grit and admissions, for instance, at grit is, when you're thinking about what might you look for in admissions, if you're looking for grit, and examples of what grit might look like in essays letters of recommendation in a personal statement for diverse students, right, so grid doesn't always look the same. And if we expect it to look the same in every applicant, we're really missing an opportunity here because it can look so different for different people. And I should probably clarify to say that parents are here like looking for the answers, thinking that they're going to go on the website and find like the secret sauce, it doesn't exist, unfortunately, because this whole guide that we've developed is really just intended to be like a choose your own adventure. Like example, both nothing in the guidebook is intended to be kind of picked up and used wholesale by colleges, it's really kind of intended, we're not suggesting that, like we've defined grit in there for colleges, we're not destined to actually use our definition or that grit is the thing they should use. We're just suggesting a follow this process where they would pick their own value, and define it in this research based way kind of go through this process of thinking about these really thorough examples, for instance, but we're not actually suggesting that they that they take in yours, the ones that we've developed, because that's a very personal personal lies process.


Ethan Sawyer  51:41  
Yeah, I really appreciate you naming that Trisha. And part of why I wanted to have a conversation with you as I wanted to, in some ways for parents, students who might be looking at colleges as sort of a monolith as like, all colleges are the same. And who might believe that they've got it all figured out. I wanted them to meet somebody who's like, well, actually, all colleges are, you know, different. And there to some extent, I imagine at different levels of having figured it out. In other words, some colleges might have it very clear. Here's what we're looking for. And here's how points are ascribed and other admission officers. And whether they will admit it or not, I think to some extent, they're still kind of figuring out what are the things we're looking for? And how do we measure for it, and it is still kind of a messy process that many folks will just call holistic review, which just means we take a lot of different things into account. And we're thinking through this, and to the listener, me Trisha part of a team who is helping colleges figure out what they're looking for, because just as students are trying to figure out what they're looking for, I think colleges are still trying to do that, too. So one of the major goals of that report, which we're going to link to in the show notes is increasing equity and access and the college admission process. I'd love to know, what are some of the steps that that you Tricia see colleges taking to increase equity and access?


Trisha Ross Anderson  52:57  
Yeah. So there are so many things that colleges are doing separately from us that that, you know, I don't need to get into me colleges are doing so much in this, you know, but can you sing financial aid, there's pipeline programs of collaborations with SeaBIOS. So I just want to mention that and that that is not the focus of our work. Primarily, we're primarily working on a systems level, like kind of across colleges in access equity space. And one of our our primary collaborators for the last couple years has been the common app, actually, who's also really focused on access and equity. And we have a new question that we've done with them, which we've been piloting over the last two years, that's been about exploring applicants home commitments. So think about a kid that is doing a lot at home. Let's say they're taking care of a younger sibling, or they're translating for mom and dad, or they're taking care of a sick family member. This question is giving them the space to speak to those commitments? And the goal of this question is really a couple of things. First of all, we want to promote fairness, we know that these sorts of commitments, they take skills, right, if you're translating or if you're a caregiving, this stuff takes skills, and it also takes time, and it tends to be underreported on the college application as it currently stands. We also want to de stigmatize the reporting of these activities, which we know lots of young people aren't talking about right now, for a wide variety of reasons that we want to value these we want to signal the value of these these these activities for young people and for society at large because they are important, and in many cases, they are indicative of a very serious workload and again, a lot of skills on a lot of value. And the third thing is don't wonder reduce applicants load and also admissions officers load and by that I mean a lot of students right now as you're doing a lot of these HomeKit events, they feel the pressure to talk about this or they feel like they should talk about this in their essay. This just means you don't have to talk about it in your essay if you don't want to you don't have this is just taking a load off and that you can kind of do I'll talk about this in this one minute question. And then you could write about whatever you want. And your essay kind of frees up that space. And it also makes it easier for admissions. You don't have to play detective wondering about why you don't have traditional extracurricular curricular activities on your application, it just kind of makes it a little bit more straightforward for them, it gives them the most important context about your life. So the question is really simple. It is a checklist, it lists a bunch of activities, like the translating for mom and dad, like taking care of sick family members, like having my own child that I take care of. And if you do any of these things for four or more hours a week, you just check off that checklist. And that information gets transferred to the west part of your admissions review to your admissions reader. And as part of your holistic review, and this question was piloted last year, with the Common Application with 12 colleges, over 220,000 students experience this question. And this year, the pilot was expanded to 25 colleges, so we think even more students will see it.


Ethan Sawyer  55:57  
Thank you for doing this. This is something that has been, I think these types of considerations has been something that in my experience has been relegated to the Additional Information section. And so, you know, students who are listening, parents who are listening, if you're like, What is this question even look like? We'll put it we'll put a screenshot in the show notes. So you can actually see all the questions that are listed. And I want to say to students who are listening and are feeling like, yeah, I have experienced, like, for example, I do do yard work or farm work or construction work. But you feel like there's a little bit of extra, you know, information that you want to give about that. For example, I'm working with a student right now who's done a lot of this kind of work. And it's impacted his ability to take higher level classes, because he's like, Hey, I've been employed, and I've been supporting my family. And I've been taking community college classes. So that's meant that I can't take APs. So that's why you don't see a piece on my transcript. And if that's if you want to include some details about that, we're going to include in the show notes, a guide to just it'll show you some examples of how to and a really straightforward way, just share that information with colleges. Because it just to your point, Trisha, it's so colleges want to know who you are, and not just like What extracurricular activities you've done, and how you've, you know, spent all your time doing academics, like they want to know, what have you spent your time doing. And these things like taking care of siblings, these things like, you know, providing transportation for family or household members, that takes an hour because you're driving, it's really like these things matter. colleges want to know. So I just want to like, plus one that and say, these are all things that are really valid. And we'll share in the show notes, the list of things. Awesome. Thank you. What advice Trisha, would you give to parents who are navigating this process with students?


Trisha Ross Anderson  57:38  
Foley so many things? Well, first of all, I would say that, you know, what we wrote turning the tide. Turning the Tide, as I mentioned, had three main goals, broadening access, and equity, broadly ethical character or reducing excessive achievement pressure, and that was really focused around changes that could be made in the college admissions process by colleges. But we came back with a second report just a couple of years later, because we're talking about changing a culture, right? When we're talking about how do we fix all of the problems with the college admissions process, it's bigger than just the problems with colleges, there are things that we as families can do, there are things that we as educators can do. So we came back a couple years later with a turning the tide too. So if folks are interested, and maybe this is something you could link to, in your show notes, we have a version of turning the tide two, which is all focused on, on steps that parents and educators can take that are interested in turning the tide and meeting the goals aligned to that report and things that they take practical steps that they can take. So I would encourage folks to go to check out those resources. And we have some concrete, like some red flags, dark things that you can look for, as you're as you work with your students, some really kind of concrete, tangible takeaways. They'll just say a couple of quick things, right now, first of all, is things like, keep your focus on your student. This sounds really obvious here. But there's just so much going on in this year. As you plan for college. It's really easy to to compare your child and your experience with other people. But but try your best to to kind of keep focus on your student and your experience and take that time to listen to your student asking questions like What do you want? How can I help? And asking even harder questions like, Am I making this harder for you? And this is really hard to ask as a parent I know because I'm a parent too, and how can I make it better? These are really hard and important questions to ask about your students experienced during this process. Another one is, again during this kind of crazy year where we're all so focused on kind of what's next and kind of caught up in this process, continuing to signal to students, you're young people, how much caring for others continues to matter. And I always think about the dinner table I think about my own home and how when my kids come home sometimes Particularly when things get stressful, the first thing I run to ask them is how to how did this go? Or like, should we plan ahead for, you know, your concert this week or this other thing we've got coming up the way ahead next week, and remembering my ultimate goals for parenting and what really matters to me and parenting and, and trying to say to myself and say to my child, how are you doing? And also, do you have an opportunity to help out that friend that was struggling last week, and have you given back to anyone today and kind of grounding yourself with those important questions that are focused on others, even during these times of stress. And then my last quick little tip, and this is this is a biggie, and there's a lot more about this in the report is thinking about expanding our focus on a wider array of colleges that we are in America, in particular, so hyper focused on like, 2030, hyper Uber selective colleges in America. And that and that, as I think, to a lot of a lot of pressure that we're all feeling, because if we don't get into one of those 20 or 30, colleges, you know, that we feel like failures for some reason. And there's not enough room in those 2030 colleges for all the people don't want to go there. But the thing is that we are so lucky in America, because we have hundreds of really, really excellent colleges where our children can go and thrive and excel. So I would encourage parents to really focus on fit and focus on on the many, many institutions where your kids will be successful and will thrive. And I think if we focus on fit that achievement, pressure begins to feel a little bit less daunting.


Ethan Sawyer  1:01:31  
Reach, Tricia, thank you. I'm so grateful for that last bit especially and for those of you who are listening and going well how practically do I find those schools will link a guide in the show notes on how to expand your college list beyond the middle of the highly rejected colleges as it were? Thanks, Tricia, so much for your for your time, and for the work you're done. Thanks


Trisha Ross Anderson  1:01:51  
so much for having me.


Ethan Sawyer  1:01:56  
Thanks, friends for listening. You'll find the show notes at college essay guy.com/podcast, including links to all the things we discussed the reports, the practical guides, lots more. Stay tuned for our next episode, where we'll get into the next thing that colleges care most about college essays and I'll switch sides the mic for that one, and I'll be the guest with my co host Tom Campbell plank interviewer and we're going to do like a crash course for the personal statement and supplemental essays. See you then and stay curious.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai