Show Notes
On today’s episode, Ethan is joined by Christine Bowman, Assistant VP for Admission at Southwestern University. In part 6 in our series on What Colleges Want, Ethan and Christine get into:
What is demonstrated interest and how do colleges track it?
How important is demonstrated interest to a student’s chance of getting in?
How might students find out if a particular school considers demonstrated interest in their admission review?
What are some practical ways you can demonstrate your interest to colleges?
Christine Bowman is the Assistant VP for Admission at Southwestern, where she oversees the admission department to set enrollment and retention philosophies. She has a Masters in Higher Ed Administration from UT-Austin, was the Co-Chair for the 2007 NACAC National Conference in and has served two terms as the Chair of the Colleges that Change Lives Board of Directors (see last season’s episode with Ann Marano for more on CTCL’s work). She currently serves on the advisory board of ROCA-NM (Rural Opportunities for College Access) and, with almost 30 years of experience in the admission profession, Christine believes in guiding students to find the right college fit and regularly gives presentations encouraging a stress-free college search process.
We hope you enjoy the conversation!
Play-by-Play
2:15 – What is demonstrated interest?
5:00 – Why might demonstrated interest be important to colleges?
8:22 – What is yield?
11:24 – How can students demonstrate interest for a particular school?
15:17 – What can colleges track?
18:52 – For whom does demonstrated interest matter most?
23:47 – How to “break up” with a college
27:05 – What are some practical tips for students as they reach out to a college?
30:10 – How might an admissions officer use demonstrated interest?
32:58 – What ways can students demonstrate interest without visiting campus?
37:24 – What is the difference between early action, early decision, and regular decision?
40:25 – How important is the college interview?
48:10 – What can parents do to support their students during this process?
53:02 – Closing advice for parents, students, and counselors
ResourceS
A Behind the Scenes Look at Demonstrated Interest w/Christine Bowman (Southwestern University)
How to Decide Whether to Apply Early Action (EA) or Early Decision (ED)
CEG Podcast Episode 411: Finding Your Why, What a Liberal Arts Education Really Is, and How to Figure out What You Actually Want w/ Ann Marano (CTCL)
Show transcript
Ethan Sawyer 0:08
Hi, friends and welcome back to the college essay guy podcast. If this is your first time listening, well, you've been dropped squarely in the middle of a series on what colleges want. In our last episode, we talked about college essays. And today we're talking about something called demonstrated interest or as the cool kids call it, Di. And I'm using cool in the very broadest sense. Today, we'll cover how important is demonstrated interest to your chances of getting into a college and how can you find out how much a college actually cares about it. We'll talk about some practical ways that you can demonstrate your interest to colleges. But first we're going to talk about what even is this thing we're calling demonstrated interest and how to colleges track it. Few people are more familiar with this topic than my guest today, Christine Bowman. Why? Because it's been a big part of her job since 1994, when she started working in admission at Southwestern University. As Assistant VP for admission at Southwestern. She oversees the admission department to set enrollment and retention philosophies. She's got a master's in higher ed administration from UT Austin was the co chair for the 2007 National College Admission Counseling conference. I know that's a mouthful. She's got a master's in higher ed administration from UT Austin. And she served for two terms as the chair of the colleges that change lives board of directors and check out last season's episode with an Maronna. For more on colleges that change lives. Christine currently serves on the advisory board of the rural opportunities for College Access, and with almost 30 years of experience in the admission profession. She believes in guiding students to find the right college fit and regularly gives presentations encouraging a stress free college search process. Fun fact, she actually recorded a screen share with me from her slate account, you'll learn what that means in just a little bit. So you can actually see what a college admission officers view is like, what they're tracking and how it's showing up inside their account. When it comes to demonstrated interest. I'll mention that to you at the end to remind you, and I'll link to it in the show notes. Hope you enjoy our conversation. Hi, Christine, welcome to podcast.
Christine Bowman 2:12
Thanks, Ethan. It's great to be here today.
Ethan Sawyer 2:15
So let's talk about demonstrated interest because this is part of a series that we're doing on what colleges want. And David Hawkins in the episode that sort of set this up said that demonstrated interest which we're going to define in just a second for folks who were like, What are we talking about is something that wasn't on the sort of like thing that was on folks radar as it were, in other words, in terms of the things that students and parents need to be thinking about. It wasn't even really on the radar until a few years ago. And now once it you know folks are talking about it jumped up huge, as some of the folks are talking about, I'd love for you to just first of all, tell us what demonstrated interest is and then give us a sense of how should parents and students be thinking about it.
Christine Bowman 3:01
First of all, our definition demonstrated interest is the opportunity for a student to show a college that they are considering that they are interested in it, it kind of makes common sense, I am demonstrating that I am interested in your school. And I think we're gonna hop to the reason why that may be important later. But Why should students or parents be considering this? I'm going to flip the language a little bit early in the podcast, I want us to reframe it as demonstrated learning. Because while yes, I want you to potentially show me that you are interested. I also believe that there's it's not a one sided opportunity, it's actually a mutually beneficial opportunity. And that is with every opportunity that a student or a feeling has to express their interest. They also have an opportunity to learn. Is this the right school for me? Is this the place that we want to invest in as a family to help our students get an education. From a counseling perspective, is this the best place that I can send the student that I have counseled for the last two or three years to achieve their academic and social goals. And so instead of being a transactional opportunity, I want it to be a relationship opportunity in which a student and family will not only raise their hand and say, Hey, yes, I am actually interested. But also then learn through that experience. And I think that's probably a myth. I want to bust throughout our conversation today. I
Ethan Sawyer 4:38
love what you're saying, I love this Rephaim Christina, I think it's wonderful. And seeing it as an opportunity, I think does feel much more. I don't know, values based. It's sort of almost like heart centered in a way you know, this is like a thing that I'm having to do. It's like an opportunity for me to learn about what I'm hearing you say is like, Where can I find a home? Where can I find a sense of belonging? That's right. So From the college side, why is this so important? You
Speaker 1 5:04
know, I think there's a variety of things. And I have spent my career at small liberal arts colleges. But I have interacted with colleagues from large research institutions throughout my journey. And so I'm going to speak broadly about the educational process and the college search process here. Given experiences that I've had with other colleagues, I haven't worked at those places. So I'm kind of setting that caveat up. There are only so many desks at each of our institutions for which we can welcome students every year. And for many of our schools, we have far more applications than we have desks for which students can sit and learn and grow. And so we have to determine who is the best fit. Again, while students or families are determining, are you the best fit for me, too, to kind of make this match, and this is almost a little bit like dating. We're trying to get to know one another really well, and then determine is this the person that's going to make my community grow and thrive? Is this the person that's going to be successful? Will they be an engaged alumnus? Will we help them accomplish their goals as well? And so because we're in a world in which for a positive way, we've tried to make application processes much easier. We are trying to have students learn about more colleges than they ever learned that before. I had 6000 applications last year for 450 slots. How do I know who the right 450 are, and how to offer those offers of admission. Now, I admitted far more than that. But where we are in a world in which it is free to apply to many schools, the common app and other regional or state applications, appropriately make it easy to apply to college by clicking 10 boxes to say, please send my information to all these spaces. That's great. But then how do I know that I just wasn't one more box that you can easily click along the way that you really do have some interest in me and want to learn more about me while I'm learning more about you. So when we have institutional priorities, when we have limited seats, if you're a highly competitive institution that may only be able to admit five, or six or 10% of their application pool, we have to look at ways in which we can pick a diamond amongst a diamond. And sometimes that diamond may be the person that has kind of raised their hand and say, I seem like you're a good match for me. I want to get to know you better. How can you get to know me better, and therefore demonstrated interest at some institutions. Not all, some institutions play a role. I believe that the demonstrated learning concept that we talked about in the beginning benefits all of us. And so I don't want families to feel and I think we're going to talk about some of them hurdles along the way. I don't want families to feel this as a negative. This is one more complicated part of the process. This is growth for both sides in a really positive way. And that's how I have always viewed demonstrated interest demonstrated work, man,
Ethan Sawyer 8:22
I love what you're saying soon. I want to talk about what are some practical ways that folks, you know, students and parents can actually do this. I wonder if you could talk one of the things that David talked about briefly on the podcast was talking about yield, as it relates to from the college perspective, will you say just a little bit about what yield is and how that might play into things?
Christine Bowman 8:41
So as I mentioned earlier, we had over 6000 applications. Last year, we had 425 spots, we are trying to find the sweet spot of the number of applications that we say yes to in order to get us to yield that 450 425 Student class every year. I look at yield because I need to know how many students if I offer X number of offers of admissions, how many students are going to say yes to me, so that I can project an appropriate enrollment. I often will get families to ask and it's a fantastic question. What if all of them say yes. Oh, and the confidence that I can give is they never have in 30 years? They've never all said yes. And I often turn it back to families and help them understand how many schools are needed or is your student applying to 1012 20 that means I have a one and 20 shot of you swiping right picking me. Right and so I need to kind of watch numbers and play a statistical game which doesn't sound very humanistic, but I need To make sure I'm offering enough yeses, so that I will get enough yeses in the end. And that's what magically makes a yield. It is not something that is important in the day in and day out of students and families and selecting a college at most institutions across the country. But it helps me to know, how do I prepare accordingly? Do I need to then take students off of a waitlist? Do I need to say yes to more students in the very beginning, because the President has charged me with growing the class. So yield, in some ways is an internal number where it can impact students and families from an external perspective, is if a school offers 100 yeses and 50% of them last year, say yes, that may be more than they wanted to enroll. And so therefore, next year, out of 100 yeses, they only may say yes to 25. That's a lower admit rate, but it may produce a smaller yield, as well. And so to some extent, yield is an internal space, but it can affect the work that we do. And and for some schools, that's where demonstrated interest can play a difference. If you're raising your hand, then that indicates to me my likelihood of you saying yes, back to me goes up, I'm more likely to yield you in this journey. Right.
Ethan Sawyer 11:24
So Christine, one of the things that really inspired me to reach out in the first place, I saw this awesome video that you did, and it was a webinar that you did with our mutual friend Cindy McDonald, and you, you did a screen share of how colleges actually track demonstrated interest. And for those of you who are interested in that, we're going to Christina and I are gonna record a separate video where you can actually see under the hood, as it were, we're behind the curtain as it were for what colleges are actually looking at when they're tracking demonstrated interest. But would you mind just giving us kind of like some of the bullet points or paint a picture for us, as it were of what our college is tracking when it comes to demonstrated interest. So
Christine Bowman 12:01
I think some very high level ones and the most simple and I know some of these are actually listed in reference, in your excellent document that you have on your website in regard to demonstrated interest, and maybe why is it important at some institutions, and how students can express it. But the most basic level of demonstrated interest is a visit to campus. Again, fry us on see if we're the right fit. The jeans may look really good on the dummy in the store. But you may get to the store and realize these jeans don't look as great on me. This doesn't feel right to me. That's okay. That's why you go and have a visit, talk to students sit in on a class. Does this feel like the right fit for me? Does it feel like these people are my people will they care about me? A second level of demonstrated interest, which is super easy and happens within your community is the opportunity to go to a college fair or a visit when a college comes to your high school. Again, it's demonstrated learning you've had the opportunity to go to a representative of that school and ask some questions. What is your favorite part of the institution? What what are you looking for? For a successful student? Yes, of course, you can ask about majors, and what clubs or organizations they have. But I'm gonna push you to use those sorts of opportunities in a slightly different way. You can Google all that you can go to a website and look that up. When you have a human standing in front of you. Ask the questions that are beyond Google get to that next level. A third way of demonstrating interest is that website, there's lots of information that we put out there. For some, you're going to be able to do three clicks, and you're going to find the treasure trove that you're looking for. And other ways you might have to click a few more spots to find what are their campus organizations, or what are the requirements to be a biology major. But getting on our websites can show demonstrated interest. And I think one more that is relatively easy. And I'm going to highlight several times throughout our conversation is communicating with the admission officer. We can be your best advocates, both in the admission scholarship and financial aid side, we can get to know you personally to help you truly understand whether this is the right place for you. Yes, we're salesmen to some extent, but we're also experts. And if we're not the expert, we can connect you to the expert. I think for a lot of students and families, we feel kind of scary. And so I want to demystify that we're we're humans, many times we're alumni of our institutions, and therefore we can share our experiences both positively. And I'm a big believer in asking what's the worst aspect of your campus? What are the things that you wish somebody would have told you at the beginning of your journey? Not an replaces perfect. And so how does the university handle On the less than perfect side as well, those are all great things to talk to humans about whether that's an email, a high school visit, or a college fair, those are some of the most basic ways that you can demonstrate some interest or, again, demonstrate some learning in an institution. Yeah,
Ethan Sawyer 15:17
this is great. And so one of the things, some folks I know, listening won't go click on the video. So one of the things we'll show is the sort of behind the scenes look that Christine has, you know, as it were her dashboard, so you can kind of see that, and correct me if I'm wrong here, Christine, but am I right, that colleges will know which things like if you visited, if you've, you know, opened up the emails, what are some other things like that, that there will actually that there's data on that that colleges will see,
Christine Bowman 15:43
certain colleges will be able to track if you've gone to the website, what pages you went on the website, and scary enough how long you spent on that webpage, I mean, let's be honest, we live in the Amazon world where today, I can go to Amazon, and I can look at a pair of shoes. And three days later, if I haven't bought it, Amazon's gonna send me a reminder about those pairs of shoes. So this cyber tracking that goes on wild, a 30 year professional Thanks, man. This is kind of mind boggling. This is the common world that we live in. What it affords me to do is to see what patterns are there. But also to know for the student that lives in Alaska as a really far spaced from Texas, and maybe they can't get to me until they've been admitted or until we're making some final decision visits along the way. But you know what they can do from Alaska, they can visit the website. And when I see that they've gone to the athletics page, or when I see that they've gone to the Fine Arts page, that tells me that I may need to follow up with them to say, Hey, are you interested in a spore? Or are you contemplating some intermurals? Just like Amazon says, Hey, are you still interested in getting these shoes that you looked at the other time? Once again, demonstrated learning? How can I help you determine if we're the best fit. Now, not all schools do this extensively. And not all schools do this? Well, and so I want to be forthright that there's a lot out there that are done in different ways from different institutions. And, and it's not necessarily a bad or a good thing. But yes, I can tell if you've opened an email from me, on your phone, on your iPad, on a desktop, on a Mac, on a PC, whether you were in China, when you open it, or whether you were at your high school and opened it, I can tell how long you've looked at it and how many times you've looked at it. Again, it's it's a little interesting how much we can ascertain. And I can tell you, we don't use all of that data. I'm not opening every message to find out how long was Ethan Sawyer on his you know, in his email, but what I tried to do out of it is to make sure that then we are providing you with the information that you want and need to make a best fit decision.
Ethan Sawyer 17:56
Yeah, I really appreciate the point that you're making. Because I could I could hear, I could imagine, for parents and students listening that you could start to feel anxious and be like, Oh, my gosh, I need to go out and do a million things now. And first of all, I want to say what Christine said is just not every college is interested necessarily, in tracking demonstrated interest, or I should say it's not a huge factor in their admissions process. And there's a way and Christine mentioned, this guy that will link to in the show notes, there was a way to find out is the college tracking demonstrated interest and to what extent is important. And the short version of it is you can Google the name of the school, plus the words common data set. So common da ta set, and you can look at Section C seven, and you can scroll down to see, you know, basically go to the student's interest and see if that's important or not important, considered or not considered. So we're not talking about every school, and and, you know, different schools care, you know, different amounts, we'll put it that way. So tell me about you know, it's Southwestern, for example, for whom would something like demonstrated interest matter? Because I could imagine a student freaking out being like, oh, my gosh, if I don't do 12 things and make Christine my BFF I'm not gonna get in, for whom does demonstrated interest matter, most particularly your institution?
Christine Bowman 19:08
I think that I would look at it from a perspective of if I see that a student has never visited, let's go to the time in which I've offered all of my admits. And now it's time to help families make their decisions. I have 2500 admits, and I have 30 days in which to get us to the early part of May, how am I going to reach out to 2500 students and help them determine if we're the right fit? So I think to some extent, it's almost a bimodal, you know, modality element? How much time do I spend on the student that has never visited, never raised their hand doesn't open any emails. To me when I see that sort of data? It tells me that the student may have submitted an application, but their interest is low. And if I have to choose where I'm spending my time, then I may not choose to put all of my efforts into that pool of students right now, the student has visited six times that opens every one of my emails, then has joined every chat or online program that we've had probably has plenty of information. And if I had to target my work, I might not overly spend time on them, checking with them quickly, I may send them a quick text. And just ask, I know you've been super engaged with us, is there anything else I can do? It's that middle bunch that I will probably spend my time on my limited time circling in to say, Ethan's open some emails, but he hasn't visited, he responded to our latest email that says I'm still considering Southwestern, but he doesn't seem to be moving real fast, I might want to spend some time on him. And so that's how I might use interest. Other institutions, though, I think we want to be fair to the audience. When they are making final even at net decisions. They may say I have five spots left, and I have 25 students for which to fill those five spots from who has raised their hand who has explained if all things are equal, if everything about the student, they are all business majors with a 1200 LSAT, that all have a 3.5 GPA and have 10 AP or dual credit courses. How do I differentiate between these 25 perfectly identical candidates? They may say, Well, who's gotten to know us a little bit better, who's raised their hand a little bit. I can tell you that for many institutions. Ethan, as you alluded to just a minute ago, they don't use demonstrated interest at all, some will, some won't. And you referenced the common data set. There's another tool that you and I have talked about that I think is equally important to update our families and guests on. And that is a new document from NASDAQ that I know you were just talking to David Hawkins about, you know what is important in the college admission process. And interest in the school was number six behind grades in college prep courses, grades that you are overall the curriculum that you've taken in your high school character attributes that may contribute to the growth of a college and your essay. And even then, when it appeared on the chart 31.4% of the school's Senate had zero importance to them. 26.5 said it was of a limited important to them. So my quick math says 57%, more than half of the colleges that participated in this survey said demonstrated had limited to no demonstrated interest had limited to no importance to them at all. So before we all get super freaked out, and especially if you go to the other aspect of what we're talking about, and I show you the screen, I want you to remember that 50 Almost 58% of the schools that participated in this survey said limited or no importance. And again, that's why I choose the words demonstrated learning because it's not about the college. In all situations. It's about the college and less than half of the situations. It's about the human the applicant in 100% of the situations. What is this activity teaching you about this community, this college this opportunity for you to call home. If there are students that are listening to this podcast or parents, if you can help guide your students, one of the things that they are probably experiencing is an inbox that has exploded with messages. One way to demonstrate interest is that it is okay to break up with a college. It is okay to scroll to the bottom and click unsubscribe or go through their email one day and write down every college that they are not interested in. And then send that college and email admission at Southwest or admission at you texas.edu [email protected] And say I have chosen to apply to other institutions. Please remove me from your communication list. Thank you very much. And the reason why it gets to the point that you are just trying to ask about Ethan. There is great information that we're going to send to them but when it becomes so cluttered, we can't see the forest for the trees. When you break up with the college especially via email. You can do the same activity with the paper that gets out of control as well. It allows students to be able to truly want to click on the messages from my call Want to learn more? That clique is demonstrating interest. But when they open up their email, and they see they got another 60 emails today from colleges for which they don't even know why they got on those lists. And that's a whole nother podcast that we could engage in. I think it's overwhelming for them. And I get that. My only other caveat I'd give about breaking up with me is that before you click on that, and submit button, do me a favor and do five minutes of research to see are we a fit for you, even though you've never heard of us? Now, I will use my own child. As an example in this, my children know that they are the product of an assistant vice president of admission and therefore they get thrown under the bus all the time. But my daughter when she went through her college search, received communication from Montana a&t, a fine institution that serves its community and population really well. My daughter grew up in Texas, she grew up in the war, she had some very clear delineations of where weather why she wanted to be. And she asked me why my they have reached out to me, I have no desire to go to Montana, I didn't never raise my hand for Montana. Maybe I am demonstrating interest to you by saying, I need some more people from Texas on my campus, I want some diversity on my campus. Or maybe we're trying to build our education program, she was an education major. And therefore we want to show you our new bells and whistles, I get that you don't want to be in the cold. And I get that you don't want to be 12 hours from home. Great, like unsubscribe, move on and break up. For others. You may have just never heard from the school before. It may have all the qualities that you're looking for maybe in a region of the country of interest, and therefore, demonstrate some learning, raise your hand, click on the website, do they have my areas of interest? Are they in a part of the country? So all that leads back to our question of which of an esky to repeat, because now I've already forgotten what we're going to talk about.
Ethan Sawyer 27:05
I love that is an awesome parenthetical. That's such great advice. What I'm curious about is when it comes to students thinking about reaching out to a college and just emailing, you know, admissions at such and such college university, how do they even start that process? And what are some do's and don'ts when
Christine Bowman 27:24
a student in their senior year begins their process? This is an example, southwestern will send an email that says hey, Ethan, I've your admission counselor, Christine Bowman, and I can't wait to get to know you. Here's a way that you can click on to get to know a little bit about me. And mine talks about my love of cooking, and that I like to watch movies, and that I when it's not 200 degrees outside, I like to go for a walk in the Texas summers and hiking. And all of a sudden, you may say, Oh, Mrs. Bowen likes to cook. I like to cook. I'm gonna send her a quick note back that says Mrs. Bowman, I'm excited that you're my admission counselor, I see we share a love of cooking. Or I also like to read, I like to read as well. I've swapped book recommendations with many prospective students over the years and read some great ones that they've recommended to me, by the way. And so it doesn't have to do anything about college. It doesn't have to do anything about Southwestern. But when we introduce ourselves in this way, we're trying to humanize the person that's going to be your guide on our cruise. And we want to let you know that we're real people just like you are and hopefully you see something else that that makes a connection. So it could be that you're sending me back a hey, I made this dish last week. If you really like Chinese food, give it a whirl. So that's one thing. Another question that might be really simple is I did some research on your academic interests. Again, don't ask me Google bowl questions get let's get to that next level a little bit. I'll answer your Google questions. But there's easy ways to find that out. I'm really interested in going to medical school. What are some of the unique things that your school does to prepare students for medical school? I see that you have a Communication Studies major that's not radio television film, which is where my interest is, can I study bill or TV at your school, even though you don't have this? And why would I want to do that? Those questions that are more than yes or no can really open up that relationship for us. And I will tell you, at the end of a long day of meetings that have nothing to do with prospective students. Some of my favorite things to do at night is to answer those sorts of emails from students to say, How can I help you learn more about us and determine whether it's the right fit? Some of them are more transactional. I really would like to play softball and I can't seem to find the coach's name or contact information. Can you help me who mind those questions at all? I appreciate that you tried to find it. How do I set up a visit Once again, happy to help. But I think I really enjoy when that student kind of shows a little bit of who they are, so that I can then help them. Again, demonstrate your learning.
Ethan Sawyer 30:10
Are there any situations and you don't have to, obviously name names or get too specific, but any situations where you feel like conversations like that email conversations ended up coming back when it came to like, you know, influencing a decision. And again, saying to everybody, Christine said, This is not a make or break thing. But I'm just curious if there are any prac, you know, any sort of examples of like, Hey, here's a time when it when it really did make a difference, or it did come back on my radar, a conversation that you had, for instance,
Christine Bowman 30:40
I think sometimes it helps me when I know a student is coming to visit that I might go up to the to our visit coordinator and say, you know, when I I've had this great email communication, that's great text communication with Ethan, and he was really interested about in political science, and he's really interested in Latin American Political Science. I saw he scheduled his visit, can we get him in with Dr. Axe, because that is our Latin American Political Science specialist, I think they would just hit it off. So sometimes, yes, sometimes our vulnerability comes out and these conversations, and if Ethan really wants to come to Southwestern, but he needs a little bit more in scholarship, or in financial aid, because we've talked about unique financial circumstances that the FAFSA may not have presented, or that it happened in the last 60 days, it gives me the tools to be able to be the advocate for the student along the way. Sometimes it's the first time I see them on campus after they've said yes. And I may say, you know, Ethan, I remember our communication last year as we were going through this college admission process, and that you really loved cooking, and we talked about a food club, let me know if you want me to be the faculty sponsor for that organization. And let's get something fun going. And let's get organized with the dining halls, their chefs can be involved. So sometimes that helps make connections to campus, once a student is there. Remembering My goal is to recruit graduates. And so I obviously want to admit you, I want to give you scholarships, I want to get you financial aid. But I also want to make sure that once you get to campus, you're a happy camper, and that you're going to excel that you're going to grow that you're going to thrive. And so sometimes those conversations lead to those connections, I would like to be in this particular organization, who do I reach out to do that? Or I noticed there's no longer a debate club, how can I start a new organization? So yeah, they can play out in a variety of ways. There's going to be differences between big school and small schools, between Publix and privates, as so how those connections are used. But I think that, again, I use these interest opportunities to make sure we're fitting, make sure I'm placing you in good hands, as I pass off from the admission process to the student process, so that you can be successful. I
Ethan Sawyer 32:58
love the prospect of inviting students to visit because I do think it's such a powerful thing that can happen. But of course, and we've talked about this before, you know, in the world access is an issue for students. And so let's talk about equity for just a couple of minutes. What about students who can't visit, you know, a lot of the students who listen to the podcast, for example, are international students, or maybe they just don't have the funds or it's just too far, or they missed that window for the the fly and visit to you know, whatever school, what are some ways that students can demonstrate interest that don't involve necessarily visiting campus. And you've already mentioned a couple, but what else is on your brain?
Christine Bowman 33:32
So I think this is a fantastic opportunity to reflect. And I work with a population of students for which getting to campus is not always easy. And so I'm excited that we're kind of transitioning into this. First of all, again, utilize your admission counselor, if we can, one of the positives about COVID is that we figured out something beyond a telephone to communicate with. And if you can't get there, it doesn't mean you can't see it. It doesn't mean you can't experience it. It doesn't mean you can't speak to somebody about it. So I work with students from New Mexico. I'm very excited about my work with the Land of Enchantment. But I make a purpose of connecting my new Mexican students that are on campus to other New Mexico students that potentially can't get to campus, help them set up a zoom, help them set up a visit when mine Current Students are going home over the holiday break. And they maybe need a Starbucks or a coffee shop. Is there somebody that's coming from a similar background with you? I'm a Native American student, and I'd like to speak to another Native American student. All right, how do we make that connection? And maybe it's just an email exchange, maybe for students because this is the world they live in. They friend each other on Snapchat or on Instagram, and they begin to share stories and conversations via social media. So there's lots of ways that we could do that. But I think it starts with the competence and this Security to reach out to that admission officer and let us be that guide for you. So, number one, reach out to your admission officer. Number two, ask for connections. Hey, Christine, I can't get to campus. But I would really like to learn more about the physics department. Is there a faculty member that I can connect with? Let me help facilitate that. Or I want to be a cheerleader on campus? How would I learn more about that? While we haven't you, I think lots of colleges are utilizing virtual visits or online platforms in a slightly different way post pandemic, we're not overly depending on them. at Southwestern, we have a whole series in the spring for our admitted students, that introduces students to different populations every week, whether that is parents, whether that is out of state students, again, an out of state to out of state student connection, maybe it's students in the sciences that want to connect with other students in the sciences. So we're continuing to use some virtual tools along the way. Remember that colleges will go back to your hometown, in the spring and host events, sometimes in your communities. And that's also a great way when we do these events, we bring alumni and current parents to those opportunities. So it's not only the admission officer giving the quote unquote, sale speech, but it's also the opportunity for you to hear from somebody who is living the experience as a parent. And what have their kids said about Southwestern, how has their experience been, or an alumnus, I was one of the first kids from the Rio Grande Valley of Texas to go to Macalester College up in Minnesota. What is that like? Along the way? How does that feel? What was the hardest transition that you had in making that change. And so you can utilize more than just the admission officer. And again, when I come to you, you may drive 20 minutes across town, you don't even have to drive to the campus or get to the campus quite yet. And still can have an amazing connection with people associated with the institution. So don't be afraid to ask, don't be afraid to hop online. And don't be afraid to go to those local events, and make those connections all from the comfort of your community, your home your state's beautiful.
Ethan Sawyer 37:24
Christine, let's talk for a minute about early action versus early decision versus regular decision. What are those different choices? And who might they be right for?
Speaker 1 37:34
One of the tools that Ethan referenced earlier is the common data set. And they will be able to within that document educate you as to what percentage of a school's applicant pool came from early decision versus early action versus regular decision. So let me stop and say any application is demonstrating interest. I have a whole lot of names on my list right now of students that I am attempting to get to know. But until a student applies, they have not fully demonstrated interest to us to be able to have us partner and get to know one another. Is there a difference in early decision at some institutions and for the audience to understand early decision as a binding opportunity for which you say to a college, you are my number one clear first choice, I've done my homework, and this is where I aspire to be. And this is my dream school. And if the finances work out great, I am done. I am signing on the dotted line and come January, I am officially done with my college search for the majority of of the audience members and the majority of the high school students across the country, this is not the best application method they're going to need to comparison shop, they're going to need to look at scholarships and financial aid packages from lots of different institutions to be able to make that educated decision. And so ed or early decision is not right for you. And that's okay. But if you know you walked on that campus, and you had the call of the world come over you that this was your space than eating may be the right place. And it served institutions that will fill a decent portion of the class 25% of the class may come through Ed. But let me tell you of the 4000 colleges across the country. That's not how it works. So for many of you, early action may be the best match. I want to tell you that I like you I'm raising my hand, but I need to do some shopping and I want to meet some other colleges at the same time. And as you have said all along, Mrs. Bowman, I'm gonna find out if we're the right fit for each other. And so you have to evaluate me, I have to evaluate you and then we're going to talk some more and get to know each other. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with regular decision. As a matter of fact, your journey just may be moving slower for a variety of reasons or You may have received some news early in the cycle that did not turn out so positively. And you need to reframe your college search and applying a regular decision is fine. Again, remember, any application is demonstrating interest. It can make a difference as to when, but only for you. Only if you have found your dream school. Otherwise, we're excited to get to know you, whatever your journey is ready. Let's
Ethan Sawyer 40:25
talk briefly about interviews. Christine, do interviews matter in the college admission process? And I guess a more nuanced version of it is, in what situations and in what context does an interview matter?
Christine Bowman 40:39
I think it's really important. First of all, to say, bunches of schools do not require interview, they don't have the bandwidth for interviews, or they might only interview and very targeted and select scenarios. On the other end of the spectrum, there might be a reason why a college asks for an interview. And they might try to be they might be attempting to advocate for you in this journey. And so this gets back to my breaking up emails, I hate it when I've tried to get a student to interview so that we can compete for a high level scholarship. And they never open the email. Because there's too much clutter. So less than two all the students and parents scan through those emails on occasion because sometimes the really good news can be in the box and we don't want to get
Ethan Sawyer 41:29
there might be money in there somewhere, I
Christine Bowman 41:31
think your money envelope in there. I love interviews. Because the theme of the day demonstrated learning, you are more than a transcript, you are more than a test score, you are more than an essay. And maybe there's part of your journey that I need help understanding to make sure that when I present your file to the admission committee, I have the full picture. Even as a as a solid student in his freshman year, sophomore year is the same way. But man that spring sophomore, the grades take a nosedive. And they are D's and s. And then miraculously, the junior year is kind of back to normal with maybe some B's and A's. But I'm looking at the spring of that sophomore year thinking What on earth happened to you know, explanation of it in the essay, no understanding of it in the, you know, kind of open comments section that students might have. And so you're leaving me with a an incomplete piece of the puzzle. At my institution, we value the opportunity to at least attempt to get to understand that even what happened in the spring of your sophomore year, it is uncharacteristic on your transcript. And you may share my grandmother who has been a partner in raising me passed away. And I did not know how much it affected me until I look back at my transcript and see what happened. I had moto for six weeks and I got so far behind, I could never catch up it was it was just terrible. But as you can tell the rest of my high school years, I've really been a great student, I hope that you will be able to help present that information to the committee. Or sometimes I might see what I call a horizontal line instead of a vertical line in a particular semester, the horizontal line May I share that maybe math is not your friend. All the other grades on your transcript are really quite amazing. But math is not your friend. And yet you tell me that you're gonna want to go into business at my institution. And so I might use that as an educational opportunity to say, hey, here's what we need to know. Our business degree requires statistics and calculus. And since you've been forthright to tell me that math is not your friend, how can I help you plan a journey so that you can be successful in those math classes and still accomplish your business major, or being pre med, which is also going to require those same higher level math classes. Sometimes the interviewer opens doors to once again helped me make connections for you. Is there a chess club? Yes. Can I introduce you to that student while you're here on your visit, or you're a gamer? Can I tell you about the golden pirates, and what our gaming team as like? Sometimes an interview helps me determine that you're not the right fit. And while my recruitment cap comes on, my counselor hat comes off my counselor hat comes on. And I may say this lovely portfolio of sketches that you have created is absolutely exquisite. And while you're in the top 2% of your class with a beautiful test score, you really want to be a fashion design major and we don't have that but can I tell you three other colleges in this area that I hope you'll put on your list. And if you're really sold on Southwestern, let me explain how we can piece this together. And so sometimes it's less about me and the southwestern experience and it's more about how am I helping you find your home you're right fit. So when Interview can be really fun for me to add life to an application. But it's a two way street demonstrated learning. What are those mystery questions that you can't find on the web, that you may be heard randomly from your as babysitters, you know, next door neighbor that you are trying to demystify about an institution? Is it really true that this happened on your campus? Well, I thank you for asking me and let me tell you more about that. So I hope you'll prepare to interview me and walk away with that confidence of this is not the right place for me, I need to remove it from my list, or this is the right place for me, it has now risen up three spots because of what I learned in this conversation. Most let's reframe the word interview as well, we're doing lots of reframing today, great conversations are probably a better definition of what we're both doing here. And interviewer might be calculate this calculus problem for me on the spot to determine your high level of intellect, I don't need that that's what I have your transcript for. I don't need to know that you've been conned to conjugate this sentence in a foreign language for me. But what I do need to know is what's going to make your heart happy in college, and can my school provide that for you. And so this back and forth of information allows us both to demonstrate learning for one another and find that right fit. So students have you get called for an interview, I don't want you to be freaking out about it. It's the opportunity for us to learn. As sometimes the interviewer can be a little bit more of a nervous point, you are on the margin. And I want to put those pieces of the puzzle together and try to advocate for you in the admission committee. And so be honest that math isn't your friend, be honest about what happened in the spring of your sophomore year that maybe caused your grades to slip. We are humans, you are humans, we are learning how to get ready for the next phase of our adult life. We don't need you to be perfect. But we do need you to be real so that we can help you be successful. And that's how you best utilize that interview conversation with your admission officer.
Ethan Sawyer 47:08
The reframe that I'm present to as you're sharing, Christine is the notion of thinking of your college admission officer as a resource. And I hear that in the what you're suggesting in terms of email, and also in these interviews that if you can sort of, I think I'm speaking to students now for a second, if you can kind of like I know it sometimes feels maybe like you're looking up to these people and seeing them as being the power of the holders of power. And in one sense. Yeah, let's be honest, that's true. They're, in some sense, the gatekeepers of like, do you get in or not get into the school? But in another sense, yeah, these are just humans who are trying to figure out, you know, is this is this person, meaning you a student, going to be a great community member? And so, yeah, there is some way that they're trying to suss that out. But one of the best ways, and we'll link to our interview guide in the chat or in the show notes, rather, is is to think about what are those questions? And there's, there's some ideas about different questions that you can ask during that interview scenario, to really get in and build that connection and, and develop, begin to develop that relationship. We're on the same page, though, in terms of what you're saying, Christine, let's talk to parents for a minute. How do parents situate themselves in this? Yes, in this process? And maybe you can speak specifically to sort of this demonstrated interest element? What can they concretely do? And if you like, what are some things they maybe shouldn't do or sort of take a backseat on? Sure,
Christine Bowman 48:29
I first want to recognize that parents are understandably a part of the journey, they are most likely a partner in the financing aspect of it in some way, shape, or form. For some families, more or less, they are a mentor and a guide and they know their own child better than any of us in the admission world do they have spent extensive amount of time with them, we're only getting a snapshot. And so I think that parents have to play a role. But I think if I were to give two immediate bits of advice to parents, actually, I'm going to go three now that they're popping into my head. Number one, we are not going to college, your student is going to college. And part of this transition into young adulthood, or real adulthood is that collectively, we are all empowering them to make this transition. And so there are things that you truly need to let them do on their own, so that they can show their demonstrated interest. It also then begins to build their confidence about how they will tackle crises or problems or even just normal conversations on campus. If they have the ability to write an email to an admission officer. They're gonna then have the ability to feel confident to write an email to a faculty member or to maybe inquire to the Dean of Students Office about something that is important to them. So instead of you right getting that email, empower them to write that email. And then if you want to help them just shut it up a little bit and remind them that when you're writing an adult professionally, it's not the same language that we use in a text. Those are great tips and skills that a parent can provide along the way, I value that you will have questions that may be very different from your students. And as a parent who has led to children through the process, sometimes you want to ask them separately of your child, because otherwise you're going to receive eye rolls and or bumps in the road with an elbow saying, please stop asking questions. So I do want to respect that you have needs and may have time that you want to ask of us in this journey. And I welcome those emails and those phone calls so that you and I can potentially perform this partnership to help your students determine whether this is the right match. Because as I said, In the beginning, you know them better than we do. And you may be able to ask some questions that they quite haven't learned how to advocate for themselves along the way. A frequent one that I welcome from families is understanding how does my student that has a 504 plan or has some learning differences, or needs a special accommodation? Handle that at your college, I'd like to guide them through that process, I am thrilled to be able to point you in the right direction and give you the confidence that we have an office that can support you and your student may be embarrassed or may think that that's detrimental in the admission process. And let me tell you ask those questions. So I value that. And then in the third space, a certainly a value add value, the conversation about finances, and the financing models have changed from when many of us went through our own college experiences. price tags have significantly changed since many of us went through our own college experience. And so if you are a first gen family, or this child is the first to go to college, and so you're navigating this journey for the first time, please look at us as resources and let us know. My child has you at the top of their list. How can we work together to make this affordable? Are there things that we need to be thinking about in a different way. But what is less helpful is when you do everything for them. And so I want to empower you parents to begin to empower them to adulthood. If they come to you and say, Well, I just don't know about Walsh University and whether it is right for me whether all men's college is right for me. empower them reach out to your admission counselor, let's go make a visit. Oh, I think I saw that there's a webinar coming up. Have you thought about joining that? Give them the tools to do that demonstrated learning and we will all grow and all learn from each other. And we're helping your student get ready for that next phase of life. Also, don't fill out their applications for them and use your email not good. Not good.
Ethan Sawyer 53:02
Because soon as we wrap here, what are some things that you hope that we let's talk first of students and parents that you hope they'll keep in mind? And then let's talk to counselors, you know, CBO counselors and staff? What would you like them to keep in mind,
Christine Bowman 53:17
I think that we have created a really different, I'm gonna use the word monster in the college cycle. What used to be rather simple, is insanely complex. What used to be the opportunity to go and fulfill a dream or a goal. Now sometimes spills like has to be solidified in concrete, what you want to do for the rest of your life. Before you even ever step on a college campus. There are understandable financial ramifications with every decision that we make along the way. In all of this, I think one of the other challenges that we collaboratively face students, parents, counseling partners colleges, is that in all of this evolution, we've created a lot of stress and anxiety. And I'm sad for that, because that's not what it's supposed to be about. And so, when a family is considering whether a student should take that 28th, AP IB or dual credit course, and I use that number somewhat facetiously please don't ever take 28 high level courses. Ask yourself, Does this bring me joy? Or will this cause me more stress or anxiety that I don't need? Because what I am seeing in essays in counselor letters in student conversations is more anxiety than I've ever seen in my 30 year career and going into QA College does not have the same comfort, or feel or enthusiasm as it used to have. Young folks remember that this is intended to be a most amazing next phase of your life. And while it won't always be perfect, and days will be hard, and classes will be difficult, and you will make a grade on a test or a paper or a quiz that you are mortified, you will still finish the journey and become a citizen of the world. And that is okay. Parents, your students are going to evolve, they are probably not going to call you as frequently as you would like. They are not going to respond to your texts as fast as you would like. But that growth opportunity for them to evolve from graduating high school students to adulthood is what this experience is about. They're going to call you panicked, frustrated, homesick, challenged. And my words for you are to ask them this question. Do you want me to hear you, help you or hug you. Because sometimes, all they need is a hug, they just need to dump on you that they have had the worst day in the histories of days. Sometimes they just need to be heard, my roommate is making me crazy, and I don't know what to do. And once they've gotten it off their chest, they can move on. But sometimes they truly need help and guidance. But we play different roles at different times. And our natural parental instinct is to want to jump in and solve every single problem. And we shouldn't, and that is where they will grow. Counselor, counseling partners CBO friends, I want to thank you for your work, because it is a mess. It is overwhelming. And you are by far not paid what you need to be paid to do all the things that you are asked to do. But your knowledge, your experience as sometimes you get to visit our campuses when your students can't, the ability to give history from past students that you know of that have gone to our colleges and done amazing things. We're partners for reason, and I can't and I say this I in a collective college admission officer perspective. We can't do this without you. And so thank you, when when you don't hear it enough? No, there are silent cheerleaders in the background say thank you. Christine,
Ethan Sawyer 57:40
thank you so much for your time.
Christine Bowman 57:42
Thank you.
Ethan Sawyer 57:46
Thanks, friends as ever for listening, you'll find the show notes at college essay guy.com/podcast, including the links to all the things we discussed. Don't forget to check out the video where Christine screen shares from her slate account and you can actually see what an admission officer sees when it comes to how you've been demonstrating your interest or not. It's pretty dang interesting. In fact, it's what inspired me to bring her on to the podcast. Stay tuned for our next episode where we get into the next thing that colleges care most about recommendation letters. That's with my wonderful co host Tom Campbell and a special guest whom I also adore. Be well and stay curious.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show transcript
Ethan Sawyer 0:08 Hi, friends and welcome back to the college essay guy podcast. If this is your first time listening, well, you've been dropped squarely in the middle of a series on what colleges want. In our last episode, we talked about college essays. And today we're talking about something called demonstrated interest or as the cool kids call it, Di. And I'm using cool in the very broadest sense. Today, we'll cover how important is demonstrated interest to your chances of getting into a college and how can you find out how much a college actually cares about it. We'll talk about some practical ways that you can demonstrate your interest to colleges. But first we're going to talk about what even is this thing we're calling demonstrated interest and how to colleges track it. Few people are more familiar with this topic than my guest today, Christine Bowman. Why? Because it's been a big part of her job since 1994, when she started working in admission at Southwestern University. As Assistant VP for admission at Southwestern. She oversees the admission department to set enrollment and retention philosophies. She's got a master's in higher ed administration from UT Austin was the co chair for the 2007 National College Admission Counseling conference. I know that's a mouthful. She's got a master's in higher ed administration from UT Austin. And she served for two terms as the chair of the colleges that change lives board of directors and check out last season's episode with an Maronna. For more on colleges that change lives. Christine currently serves on the advisory board of the rural opportunities for College Access, and with almost 30 years of experience in the admission profession. She believes in guiding students to find the right college fit and regularly gives presentations encouraging a stress free college search process. Fun fact, she actually recorded a screen share with me from her slate account, you'll learn what that means in just a little bit. So you can actually see what a college admission officers view is like, what they're tracking and how it's showing up inside their account. When it comes to demonstrated interest. I'll mention that to you at the end to remind you, and I'll link to it in the show notes. Hope you enjoy our conversation. Hi, Christine, welcome to podcast. Christine Bowman 2:12 Thanks, Ethan. It's great to be here today. Ethan Sawyer 2:15 So let's talk about demonstrated interest because this is part of a series that we're doing on what colleges want. And David Hawkins in the episode that sort of set this up said that demonstrated interest which we're going to define in just a second for folks who were like, What are we talking about is something that wasn't on the sort of like thing that was on folks radar as it were, in other words, in terms of the things that students and parents need to be thinking about. It wasn't even really on the radar until a few years ago. And now once it you know folks are talking about it jumped up huge, as some of the folks are talking about, I'd love for you to just first of all, tell us what demonstrated interest is and then give us a sense of how should parents and students be thinking about it. Christine Bowman 3:01 First of all, our definition demonstrated interest is the opportunity for a student to show a college that they are considering that they are interested in it, it kind of makes common sense, I am demonstrating that I am interested in your school. And I think we're gonna hop to the reason why that may be important later. But Why should students or parents be considering this? I'm going to flip the language a little bit early in the podcast, I want us to reframe it as demonstrated learning. Because while yes, I want you to potentially show me that you are interested. I also believe that there's it's not a one sided opportunity, it's actually a mutually beneficial opportunity. And that is with every opportunity that a student or a feeling has to express their interest. They also have an opportunity to learn. Is this the right school for me? Is this the place that we want to invest in as a family to help our students get an education. From a counseling perspective, is this the best place that I can send the student that I have counseled for the last two or three years to achieve their academic and social goals. And so instead of being a transactional opportunity, I want it to be a relationship opportunity in which a student and family will not only raise their hand and say, Hey, yes, I am actually interested. But also then learn through that experience. And I think that's probably a myth. I want to bust throughout our conversation today. I Ethan Sawyer 4:38 love what you're saying, I love this Rephaim Christina, I think it's wonderful. And seeing it as an opportunity, I think does feel much more. I don't know, values based. It's sort of almost like heart centered in a way you know, this is like a thing that I'm having to do. It's like an opportunity for me to learn about what I'm hearing you say is like, Where can I find a home? Where can I find a sense of belonging? That's right. So From the college side, why is this so important? You Speaker 1 5:04 know, I think there's a variety of things. And I have spent my career at small liberal arts colleges. But I have interacted with colleagues from large research institutions throughout my journey. And so I'm going to speak broadly about the educational process and the college search process here. Given experiences that I've had with other colleagues, I haven't worked at those places. So I'm kind of setting that caveat up. There are only so many desks at each of our institutions for which we can welcome students every year. And for many of our schools, we have far more applications than we have desks for which students can sit and learn and grow. And so we have to determine who is the best fit. Again, while students or families are determining, are you the best fit for me, too, to kind of make this match, and this is almost a little bit like dating. We're trying to get to know one another really well, and then determine is this the person that's going to make my community grow and thrive? Is this the person that's going to be successful? Will they be an engaged alumnus? Will we help them accomplish their goals as well? And so because we're in a world in which for a positive way, we've tried to make application processes much easier. We are trying to have students learn about more colleges than they ever learned that before. I had 6000 applications last year for 450 slots. How do I know who the right 450 are, and how to offer those offers of admission. Now, I admitted far more than that. But where we are in a world in which it is free to apply to many schools, the common app and other regional or state applications, appropriately make it easy to apply to college by clicking 10 boxes to say, please send my information to all these spaces. That's great. But then how do I know that I just wasn't one more box that you can easily click along the way that you really do have some interest in me and want to learn more about me while I'm learning more about you. So when we have institutional priorities, when we have limited seats, if you're a highly competitive institution that may only be able to admit five, or six or 10% of their application pool, we have to look at ways in which we can pick a diamond amongst a diamond. And sometimes that diamond may be the person that has kind of raised their hand and say, I seem like you're a good match for me. I want to get to know you better. How can you get to know me better, and therefore demonstrated interest at some institutions. Not all, some institutions play a role. I believe that the demonstrated learning concept that we talked about in the beginning benefits all of us. And so I don't want families to feel and I think we're going to talk about some of them hurdles along the way. I don't want families to feel this as a negative. This is one more complicated part of the process. This is growth for both sides in a really positive way. And that's how I have always viewed demonstrated interest demonstrated work, man, Ethan Sawyer 8:22 I love what you're saying soon. I want to talk about what are some practical ways that folks, you know, students and parents can actually do this. I wonder if you could talk one of the things that David talked about briefly on the podcast was talking about yield, as it relates to from the college perspective, will you say just a little bit about what yield is and how that might play into things? Christine Bowman 8:41 So as I mentioned earlier, we had over 6000 applications. Last year, we had 425 spots, we are trying to find the sweet spot of the number of applications that we say yes to in order to get us to yield that 450 425 Student class every year. I look at yield because I need to know how many students if I offer X number of offers of admissions, how many students are going to say yes to me, so that I can project an appropriate enrollment. I often will get families to ask and it's a fantastic question. What if all of them say yes. Oh, and the confidence that I can give is they never have in 30 years? They've never all said yes. And I often turn it back to families and help them understand how many schools are needed or is your student applying to 1012 20 that means I have a one and 20 shot of you swiping right picking me. Right and so I need to kind of watch numbers and play a statistical game which doesn't sound very humanistic, but I need To make sure I'm offering enough yeses, so that I will get enough yeses in the end. And that's what magically makes a yield. It is not something that is important in the day in and day out of students and families and selecting a college at most institutions across the country. But it helps me to know, how do I prepare accordingly? Do I need to then take students off of a waitlist? Do I need to say yes to more students in the very beginning, because the President has charged me with growing the class. So yield, in some ways is an internal number where it can impact students and families from an external perspective, is if a school offers 100 yeses and 50% of them last year, say yes, that may be more than they wanted to enroll. And so therefore, next year, out of 100 yeses, they only may say yes to 25. That's a lower admit rate, but it may produce a smaller yield, as well. And so to some extent, yield is an internal space, but it can affect the work that we do. And and for some schools, that's where demonstrated interest can play a difference. If you're raising your hand, then that indicates to me my likelihood of you saying yes, back to me goes up, I'm more likely to yield you in this journey. Right. Ethan Sawyer 11:24 So Christine, one of the things that really inspired me to reach out in the first place, I saw this awesome video that you did, and it was a webinar that you did with our mutual friend Cindy McDonald, and you, you did a screen share of how colleges actually track demonstrated interest. And for those of you who are interested in that, we're going to Christina and I are gonna record a separate video where you can actually see under the hood, as it were, we're behind the curtain as it were for what colleges are actually looking at when they're tracking demonstrated interest. But would you mind just giving us kind of like some of the bullet points or paint a picture for us, as it were of what our college is tracking when it comes to demonstrated interest. So Christine Bowman 12:01 I think some very high level ones and the most simple and I know some of these are actually listed in reference, in your excellent document that you have on your website in regard to demonstrated interest, and maybe why is it important at some institutions, and how students can express it. But the most basic level of demonstrated interest is a visit to campus. Again, fry us on see if we're the right fit. The jeans may look really good on the dummy in the store. But you may get to the store and realize these jeans don't look as great on me. This doesn't feel right to me. That's okay. That's why you go and have a visit, talk to students sit in on a class. Does this feel like the right fit for me? Does it feel like these people are my people will they care about me? A second level of demonstrated interest, which is super easy and happens within your community is the opportunity to go to a college fair or a visit when a college comes to your high school. Again, it's demonstrated learning you've had the opportunity to go to a representative of that school and ask some questions. What is your favorite part of the institution? What what are you looking for? For a successful student? Yes, of course, you can ask about majors, and what clubs or organizations they have. But I'm gonna push you to use those sorts of opportunities in a slightly different way. You can Google all that you can go to a website and look that up. When you have a human standing in front of you. Ask the questions that are beyond Google get to that next level. A third way of demonstrating interest is that website, there's lots of information that we put out there. For some, you're going to be able to do three clicks, and you're going to find the treasure trove that you're looking for. And other ways you might have to click a few more spots to find what are their campus organizations, or what are the requirements to be a biology major. But getting on our websites can show demonstrated interest. And I think one more that is relatively easy. And I'm going to highlight several times throughout our conversation is communicating with the admission officer. We can be your best advocates, both in the admission scholarship and financial aid side, we can get to know you personally to help you truly understand whether this is the right place for you. Yes, we're salesmen to some extent, but we're also experts. And if we're not the expert, we can connect you to the expert. I think for a lot of students and families, we feel kind of scary. And so I want to demystify that we're we're humans, many times we're alumni of our institutions, and therefore we can share our experiences both positively. And I'm a big believer in asking what's the worst aspect of your campus? What are the things that you wish somebody would have told you at the beginning of your journey? Not an replaces perfect. And so how does the university handle On the less than perfect side as well, those are all great things to talk to humans about whether that's an email, a high school visit, or a college fair, those are some of the most basic ways that you can demonstrate some interest or, again, demonstrate some learning in an institution. Yeah, Ethan Sawyer 15:17 this is great. And so one of the things, some folks I know, listening won't go click on the video. So one of the things we'll show is the sort of behind the scenes look that Christine has, you know, as it were her dashboard, so you can kind of see that, and correct me if I'm wrong here, Christine, but am I right, that colleges will know which things like if you visited, if you've, you know, opened up the emails, what are some other things like that, that there will actually that there's data on that that colleges will see, Christine Bowman 15:43 certain colleges will be able to track if you've gone to the website, what pages you went on the website, and scary enough how long you spent on that webpage, I mean, let's be honest, we live in the Amazon world where today, I can go to Amazon, and I can look at a pair of shoes. And three days later, if I haven't bought it, Amazon's gonna send me a reminder about those pairs of shoes. So this cyber tracking that goes on wild, a 30 year professional Thanks, man. This is kind of mind boggling. This is the common world that we live in. What it affords me to do is to see what patterns are there. But also to know for the student that lives in Alaska as a really far spaced from Texas, and maybe they can't get to me until they've been admitted or until we're making some final decision visits along the way. But you know what they can do from Alaska, they can visit the website. And when I see that they've gone to the athletics page, or when I see that they've gone to the Fine Arts page, that tells me that I may need to follow up with them to say, Hey, are you interested in a spore? Or are you contemplating some intermurals? Just like Amazon says, Hey, are you still interested in getting these shoes that you looked at the other time? Once again, demonstrated learning? How can I help you determine if we're the best fit. Now, not all schools do this extensively. And not all schools do this? Well, and so I want to be forthright that there's a lot out there that are done in different ways from different institutions. And, and it's not necessarily a bad or a good thing. But yes, I can tell if you've opened an email from me, on your phone, on your iPad, on a desktop, on a Mac, on a PC, whether you were in China, when you open it, or whether you were at your high school and opened it, I can tell how long you've looked at it and how many times you've looked at it. Again, it's it's a little interesting how much we can ascertain. And I can tell you, we don't use all of that data. I'm not opening every message to find out how long was Ethan Sawyer on his you know, in his email, but what I tried to do out of it is to make sure that then we are providing you with the information that you want and need to make a best fit decision. Ethan Sawyer 17:56 Yeah, I really appreciate the point that you're making. Because I could I could hear, I could imagine, for parents and students listening that you could start to feel anxious and be like, Oh, my gosh, I need to go out and do a million things now. And first of all, I want to say what Christine said is just not every college is interested necessarily, in tracking demonstrated interest, or I should say it's not a huge factor in their admissions process. And there's a way and Christine mentioned, this guy that will link to in the show notes, there was a way to find out is the college tracking demonstrated interest and to what extent is important. And the short version of it is you can Google the name of the school, plus the words common data set. So common da ta set, and you can look at Section C seven, and you can scroll down to see, you know, basically go to the student's interest and see if that's important or not important, considered or not considered. So we're not talking about every school, and and, you know, different schools care, you know, different amounts, we'll put it that way. So tell me about you know, it's Southwestern, for example, for whom would something like demonstrated interest matter? Because I could imagine a student freaking out being like, oh, my gosh, if I don't do 12 things and make Christine my BFF I'm not gonna get in, for whom does demonstrated interest matter, most particularly your institution? Christine Bowman 19:08 I think that I would look at it from a perspective of if I see that a student has never visited, let's go to the time in which I've offered all of my admits. And now it's time to help families make their decisions. I have 2500 admits, and I have 30 days in which to get us to the early part of May, how am I going to reach out to 2500 students and help them determine if we're the right fit? So I think to some extent, it's almost a bimodal, you know, modality element? How much time do I spend on the student that has never visited, never raised their hand doesn't open any emails. To me when I see that sort of data? It tells me that the student may have submitted an application, but their interest is low. And if I have to choose where I'm spending my time, then I may not choose to put all of my efforts into that pool of students right now, the student has visited six times that opens every one of my emails, then has joined every chat or online program that we've had probably has plenty of information. And if I had to target my work, I might not overly spend time on them, checking with them quickly, I may send them a quick text. And just ask, I know you've been super engaged with us, is there anything else I can do? It's that middle bunch that I will probably spend my time on my limited time circling in to say, Ethan's open some emails, but he hasn't visited, he responded to our latest email that says I'm still considering Southwestern, but he doesn't seem to be moving real fast, I might want to spend some time on him. And so that's how I might use interest. Other institutions, though, I think we want to be fair to the audience. When they are making final even at net decisions. They may say I have five spots left, and I have 25 students for which to fill those five spots from who has raised their hand who has explained if all things are equal, if everything about the student, they are all business majors with a 1200 LSAT, that all have a 3.5 GPA and have 10 AP or dual credit courses. How do I differentiate between these 25 perfectly identical candidates? They may say, Well, who's gotten to know us a little bit better, who's raised their hand a little bit. I can tell you that for many institutions. Ethan, as you alluded to just a minute ago, they don't use demonstrated interest at all, some will, some won't. And you referenced the common data set. There's another tool that you and I have talked about that I think is equally important to update our families and guests on. And that is a new document from NASDAQ that I know you were just talking to David Hawkins about, you know what is important in the college admission process. And interest in the school was number six behind grades in college prep courses, grades that you are overall the curriculum that you've taken in your high school character attributes that may contribute to the growth of a college and your essay. And even then, when it appeared on the chart 31.4% of the school's Senate had zero importance to them. 26.5 said it was of a limited important to them. So my quick math says 57%, more than half of the colleges that participated in this survey said demonstrated had limited to no demonstrated interest had limited to no importance to them at all. So before we all get super freaked out, and especially if you go to the other aspect of what we're talking about, and I show you the screen, I want you to remember that 50 Almost 58% of the schools that participated in this survey said limited or no importance. And again, that's why I choose the words demonstrated learning because it's not about the college. In all situations. It's about the college and less than half of the situations. It's about the human the applicant in 100% of the situations. What is this activity teaching you about this community, this college this opportunity for you to call home. If there are students that are listening to this podcast or parents, if you can help guide your students, one of the things that they are probably experiencing is an inbox that has exploded with messages. One way to demonstrate interest is that it is okay to break up with a college. It is okay to scroll to the bottom and click unsubscribe or go through their email one day and write down every college that they are not interested in. And then send that college and email admission at Southwest or admission at you texas.edu [email protected] And say I have chosen to apply to other institutions. Please remove me from your communication list. Thank you very much. And the reason why it gets to the point that you are just trying to ask about Ethan. There is great information that we're going to send to them but when it becomes so cluttered, we can't see the forest for the trees. When you break up with the college especially via email. You can do the same activity with the paper that gets out of control as well. It allows students to be able to truly want to click on the messages from my call Want to learn more? That clique is demonstrating interest. But when they open up their email, and they see they got another 60 emails today from colleges for which they don't even know why they got on those lists. And that's a whole nother podcast that we could engage in. I think it's overwhelming for them. And I get that. My only other caveat I'd give about breaking up with me is that before you click on that, and submit button, do me a favor and do five minutes of research to see are we a fit for you, even though you've never heard of us? Now, I will use my own child. As an example in this, my children know that they are the product of an assistant vice president of admission and therefore they get thrown under the bus all the time. But my daughter when she went through her college search, received communication from Montana a&t, a fine institution that serves its community and population really well. My daughter grew up in Texas, she grew up in the war, she had some very clear delineations of where weather why she wanted to be. And she asked me why my they have reached out to me, I have no desire to go to Montana, I didn't never raise my hand for Montana. Maybe I am demonstrating interest to you by saying, I need some more people from Texas on my campus, I want some diversity on my campus. Or maybe we're trying to build our education program, she was an education major. And therefore we want to show you our new bells and whistles, I get that you don't want to be in the cold. And I get that you don't want to be 12 hours from home. Great, like unsubscribe, move on and break up. For others. You may have just never heard from the school before. It may have all the qualities that you're looking for maybe in a region of the country of interest, and therefore, demonstrate some learning, raise your hand, click on the website, do they have my areas of interest? Are they in a part of the country? So all that leads back to our question of which of an esky to repeat, because now I've already forgotten what we're going to talk about. Ethan Sawyer 27:05 I love that is an awesome parenthetical. That's such great advice. What I'm curious about is when it comes to students thinking about reaching out to a college and just emailing, you know, admissions at such and such college university, how do they even start that process? And what are some do's and don'ts when Christine Bowman 27:24 a student in their senior year begins their process? This is an example, southwestern will send an email that says hey, Ethan, I've your admission counselor, Christine Bowman, and I can't wait to get to know you. Here's a way that you can click on to get to know a little bit about me. And mine talks about my love of cooking, and that I like to watch movies, and that I when it's not 200 degrees outside, I like to go for a walk in the Texas summers and hiking. And all of a sudden, you may say, Oh, Mrs. Bowen likes to cook. I like to cook. I'm gonna send her a quick note back that says Mrs. Bowman, I'm excited that you're my admission counselor, I see we share a love of cooking. Or I also like to read, I like to read as well. I've swapped book recommendations with many prospective students over the years and read some great ones that they've recommended to me, by the way. And so it doesn't have to do anything about college. It doesn't have to do anything about Southwestern. But when we introduce ourselves in this way, we're trying to humanize the person that's going to be your guide on our cruise. And we want to let you know that we're real people just like you are and hopefully you see something else that that makes a connection. So it could be that you're sending me back a hey, I made this dish last week. If you really like Chinese food, give it a whirl. So that's one thing. Another question that might be really simple is I did some research on your academic interests. Again, don't ask me Google bowl questions get let's get to that next level a little bit. I'll answer your Google questions. But there's easy ways to find that out. I'm really interested in going to medical school. What are some of the unique things that your school does to prepare students for medical school? I see that you have a Communication Studies major that's not radio television film, which is where my interest is, can I study bill or TV at your school, even though you don't have this? And why would I want to do that? Those questions that are more than yes or no can really open up that relationship for us. And I will tell you, at the end of a long day of meetings that have nothing to do with prospective students. Some of my favorite things to do at night is to answer those sorts of emails from students to say, How can I help you learn more about us and determine whether it's the right fit? Some of them are more transactional. I really would like to play softball and I can't seem to find the coach's name or contact information. Can you help me who mind those questions at all? I appreciate that you tried to find it. How do I set up a visit Once again, happy to help. But I think I really enjoy when that student kind of shows a little bit of who they are, so that I can then help them. Again, demonstrate your learning. Ethan Sawyer 30:10 Are there any situations and you don't have to, obviously name names or get too specific, but any situations where you feel like conversations like that email conversations ended up coming back when it came to like, you know, influencing a decision. And again, saying to everybody, Christine said, This is not a make or break thing. But I'm just curious if there are any prac, you know, any sort of examples of like, Hey, here's a time when it when it really did make a difference, or it did come back on my radar, a conversation that you had, for instance, Christine Bowman 30:40 I think sometimes it helps me when I know a student is coming to visit that I might go up to the to our visit coordinator and say, you know, when I I've had this great email communication, that's great text communication with Ethan, and he was really interested about in political science, and he's really interested in Latin American Political Science. I saw he scheduled his visit, can we get him in with Dr. Axe, because that is our Latin American Political Science specialist, I think they would just hit it off. So sometimes, yes, sometimes our vulnerability comes out and these conversations, and if Ethan really wants to come to Southwestern, but he needs a little bit more in scholarship, or in financial aid, because we've talked about unique financial circumstances that the FAFSA may not have presented, or that it happened in the last 60 days, it gives me the tools to be able to be the advocate for the student along the way. Sometimes it's the first time I see them on campus after they've said yes. And I may say, you know, Ethan, I remember our communication last year as we were going through this college admission process, and that you really loved cooking, and we talked about a food club, let me know if you want me to be the faculty sponsor for that organization. And let's get something fun going. And let's get organized with the dining halls, their chefs can be involved. So sometimes that helps make connections to campus, once a student is there. Remembering My goal is to recruit graduates. And so I obviously want to admit you, I want to give you scholarships, I want to get you financial aid. But I also want to make sure that once you get to campus, you're a happy camper, and that you're going to excel that you're going to grow that you're going to thrive. And so sometimes those conversations lead to those connections, I would like to be in this particular organization, who do I reach out to do that? Or I noticed there's no longer a debate club, how can I start a new organization? So yeah, they can play out in a variety of ways. There's going to be differences between big school and small schools, between Publix and privates, as so how those connections are used. But I think that, again, I use these interest opportunities to make sure we're fitting, make sure I'm placing you in good hands, as I pass off from the admission process to the student process, so that you can be successful. I Ethan Sawyer 32:58 love the prospect of inviting students to visit because I do think it's such a powerful thing that can happen. But of course, and we've talked about this before, you know, in the world access is an issue for students. And so let's talk about equity for just a couple of minutes. What about students who can't visit, you know, a lot of the students who listen to the podcast, for example, are international students, or maybe they just don't have the funds or it's just too far, or they missed that window for the the fly and visit to you know, whatever school, what are some ways that students can demonstrate interest that don't involve necessarily visiting campus. And you've already mentioned a couple, but what else is on your brain? Christine Bowman 33:32 So I think this is a fantastic opportunity to reflect. And I work with a population of students for which getting to campus is not always easy. And so I'm excited that we're kind of transitioning into this. First of all, again, utilize your admission counselor, if we can, one of the positives about COVID is that we figured out something beyond a telephone to communicate with. And if you can't get there, it doesn't mean you can't see it. It doesn't mean you can't experience it. It doesn't mean you can't speak to somebody about it. So I work with students from New Mexico. I'm very excited about my work with the Land of Enchantment. But I make a purpose of connecting my new Mexican students that are on campus to other New Mexico students that potentially can't get to campus, help them set up a zoom, help them set up a visit when mine Current Students are going home over the holiday break. And they maybe need a Starbucks or a coffee shop. Is there somebody that's coming from a similar background with you? I'm a Native American student, and I'd like to speak to another Native American student. All right, how do we make that connection? And maybe it's just an email exchange, maybe for students because this is the world they live in. They friend each other on Snapchat or on Instagram, and they begin to share stories and conversations via social media. So there's lots of ways that we could do that. But I think it starts with the competence and this Security to reach out to that admission officer and let us be that guide for you. So, number one, reach out to your admission officer. Number two, ask for connections. Hey, Christine, I can't get to campus. But I would really like to learn more about the physics department. Is there a faculty member that I can connect with? Let me help facilitate that. Or I want to be a cheerleader on campus? How would I learn more about that? While we haven't you, I think lots of colleges are utilizing virtual visits or online platforms in a slightly different way post pandemic, we're not overly depending on them. at Southwestern, we have a whole series in the spring for our admitted students, that introduces students to different populations every week, whether that is parents, whether that is out of state students, again, an out of state to out of state student connection, maybe it's students in the sciences that want to connect with other students in the sciences. So we're continuing to use some virtual tools along the way. Remember that colleges will go back to your hometown, in the spring and host events, sometimes in your communities. And that's also a great way when we do these events, we bring alumni and current parents to those opportunities. So it's not only the admission officer giving the quote unquote, sale speech, but it's also the opportunity for you to hear from somebody who is living the experience as a parent. And what have their kids said about Southwestern, how has their experience been, or an alumnus, I was one of the first kids from the Rio Grande Valley of Texas to go to Macalester College up in Minnesota. What is that like? Along the way? How does that feel? What was the hardest transition that you had in making that change. And so you can utilize more than just the admission officer. And again, when I come to you, you may drive 20 minutes across town, you don't even have to drive to the campus or get to the campus quite yet. And still can have an amazing connection with people associated with the institution. So don't be afraid to ask, don't be afraid to hop online. And don't be afraid to go to those local events, and make those connections all from the comfort of your community, your home your state's beautiful. Ethan Sawyer 37:24 Christine, let's talk for a minute about early action versus early decision versus regular decision. What are those different choices? And who might they be right for? Speaker 1 37:34 One of the tools that Ethan referenced earlier is the common data set. And they will be able to within that document educate you as to what percentage of a school's applicant pool came from early decision versus early action versus regular decision. So let me stop and say any application is demonstrating interest. I have a whole lot of names on my list right now of students that I am attempting to get to know. But until a student applies, they have not fully demonstrated interest to us to be able to have us partner and get to know one another. Is there a difference in early decision at some institutions and for the audience to understand early decision as a binding opportunity for which you say to a college, you are my number one clear first choice, I've done my homework, and this is where I aspire to be. And this is my dream school. And if the finances work out great, I am done. I am signing on the dotted line and come January, I am officially done with my college search for the majority of of the audience members and the majority of the high school students across the country, this is not the best application method they're going to need to comparison shop, they're going to need to look at scholarships and financial aid packages from lots of different institutions to be able to make that educated decision. And so ed or early decision is not right for you. And that's okay. But if you know you walked on that campus, and you had the call of the world come over you that this was your space than eating may be the right place. And it served institutions that will fill a decent portion of the class 25% of the class may come through Ed. But let me tell you of the 4000 colleges across the country. That's not how it works. So for many of you, early action may be the best match. I want to tell you that I like you I'm raising my hand, but I need to do some shopping and I want to meet some other colleges at the same time. And as you have said all along, Mrs. Bowman, I'm gonna find out if we're the right fit for each other. And so you have to evaluate me, I have to evaluate you and then we're going to talk some more and get to know each other. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with regular decision. As a matter of fact, your journey just may be moving slower for a variety of reasons or You may have received some news early in the cycle that did not turn out so positively. And you need to reframe your college search and applying a regular decision is fine. Again, remember, any application is demonstrating interest. It can make a difference as to when, but only for you. Only if you have found your dream school. Otherwise, we're excited to get to know you, whatever your journey is ready. Let's Ethan Sawyer 40:25 talk briefly about interviews. Christine, do interviews matter in the college admission process? And I guess a more nuanced version of it is, in what situations and in what context does an interview matter? Christine Bowman 40:39 I think it's really important. First of all, to say, bunches of schools do not require interview, they don't have the bandwidth for interviews, or they might only interview and very targeted and select scenarios. On the other end of the spectrum, there might be a reason why a college asks for an interview. And they might try to be they might be attempting to advocate for you in this journey. And so this gets back to my breaking up emails, I hate it when I've tried to get a student to interview so that we can compete for a high level scholarship. And they never open the email. Because there's too much clutter. So less than two all the students and parents scan through those emails on occasion because sometimes the really good news can be in the box and we don't want to get Ethan Sawyer 41:29 there might be money in there somewhere, I Christine Bowman 41:31 think your money envelope in there. I love interviews. Because the theme of the day demonstrated learning, you are more than a transcript, you are more than a test score, you are more than an essay. And maybe there's part of your journey that I need help understanding to make sure that when I present your file to the admission committee, I have the full picture. Even as a as a solid student in his freshman year, sophomore year is the same way. But man that spring sophomore, the grades take a nosedive. And they are D's and s. And then miraculously, the junior year is kind of back to normal with maybe some B's and A's. But I'm looking at the spring of that sophomore year thinking What on earth happened to you know, explanation of it in the essay, no understanding of it in the, you know, kind of open comments section that students might have. And so you're leaving me with a an incomplete piece of the puzzle. At my institution, we value the opportunity to at least attempt to get to understand that even what happened in the spring of your sophomore year, it is uncharacteristic on your transcript. And you may share my grandmother who has been a partner in raising me passed away. And I did not know how much it affected me until I look back at my transcript and see what happened. I had moto for six weeks and I got so far behind, I could never catch up it was it was just terrible. But as you can tell the rest of my high school years, I've really been a great student, I hope that you will be able to help present that information to the committee. Or sometimes I might see what I call a horizontal line instead of a vertical line in a particular semester, the horizontal line May I share that maybe math is not your friend. All the other grades on your transcript are really quite amazing. But math is not your friend. And yet you tell me that you're gonna want to go into business at my institution. And so I might use that as an educational opportunity to say, hey, here's what we need to know. Our business degree requires statistics and calculus. And since you've been forthright to tell me that math is not your friend, how can I help you plan a journey so that you can be successful in those math classes and still accomplish your business major, or being pre med, which is also going to require those same higher level math classes. Sometimes the interviewer opens doors to once again helped me make connections for you. Is there a chess club? Yes. Can I introduce you to that student while you're here on your visit, or you're a gamer? Can I tell you about the golden pirates, and what our gaming team as like? Sometimes an interview helps me determine that you're not the right fit. And while my recruitment cap comes on, my counselor hat comes off my counselor hat comes on. And I may say this lovely portfolio of sketches that you have created is absolutely exquisite. And while you're in the top 2% of your class with a beautiful test score, you really want to be a fashion design major and we don't have that but can I tell you three other colleges in this area that I hope you'll put on your list. And if you're really sold on Southwestern, let me explain how we can piece this together. And so sometimes it's less about me and the southwestern experience and it's more about how am I helping you find your home you're right fit. So when Interview can be really fun for me to add life to an application. But it's a two way street demonstrated learning. What are those mystery questions that you can't find on the web, that you may be heard randomly from your as babysitters, you know, next door neighbor that you are trying to demystify about an institution? Is it really true that this happened on your campus? Well, I thank you for asking me and let me tell you more about that. So I hope you'll prepare to interview me and walk away with that confidence of this is not the right place for me, I need to remove it from my list, or this is the right place for me, it has now risen up three spots because of what I learned in this conversation. Most let's reframe the word interview as well, we're doing lots of reframing today, great conversations are probably a better definition of what we're both doing here. And interviewer might be calculate this calculus problem for me on the spot to determine your high level of intellect, I don't need that that's what I have your transcript for. I don't need to know that you've been conned to conjugate this sentence in a foreign language for me. But what I do need to know is what's going to make your heart happy in college, and can my school provide that for you. And so this back and forth of information allows us both to demonstrate learning for one another and find that right fit. So students have you get called for an interview, I don't want you to be freaking out about it. It's the opportunity for us to learn. As sometimes the interviewer can be a little bit more of a nervous point, you are on the margin. And I want to put those pieces of the puzzle together and try to advocate for you in the admission committee. And so be honest that math isn't your friend, be honest about what happened in the spring of your sophomore year that maybe caused your grades to slip. We are humans, you are humans, we are learning how to get ready for the next phase of our adult life. We don't need you to be perfect. But we do need you to be real so that we can help you be successful. And that's how you best utilize that interview conversation with your admission officer. Ethan Sawyer 47:08 The reframe that I'm present to as you're sharing, Christine is the notion of thinking of your college admission officer as a resource. And I hear that in the what you're suggesting in terms of email, and also in these interviews that if you can sort of, I think I'm speaking to students now for a second, if you can kind of like I know it sometimes feels maybe like you're looking up to these people and seeing them as being the power of the holders of power. And in one sense. Yeah, let's be honest, that's true. They're, in some sense, the gatekeepers of like, do you get in or not get into the school? But in another sense, yeah, these are just humans who are trying to figure out, you know, is this is this person, meaning you a student, going to be a great community member? And so, yeah, there is some way that they're trying to suss that out. But one of the best ways, and we'll link to our interview guide in the chat or in the show notes, rather, is is to think about what are those questions? And there's, there's some ideas about different questions that you can ask during that interview scenario, to really get in and build that connection and, and develop, begin to develop that relationship. We're on the same page, though, in terms of what you're saying, Christine, let's talk to parents for a minute. How do parents situate themselves in this? Yes, in this process? And maybe you can speak specifically to sort of this demonstrated interest element? What can they concretely do? And if you like, what are some things they maybe shouldn't do or sort of take a backseat on? Sure, Christine Bowman 48:29 I first want to recognize that parents are understandably a part of the journey, they are most likely a partner in the financing aspect of it in some way, shape, or form. For some families, more or less, they are a mentor and a guide and they know their own child better than any of us in the admission world do they have spent extensive amount of time with them, we're only getting a snapshot. And so I think that parents have to play a role. But I think if I were to give two immediate bits of advice to parents, actually, I'm going to go three now that they're popping into my head. Number one, we are not going to college, your student is going to college. And part of this transition into young adulthood, or real adulthood is that collectively, we are all empowering them to make this transition. And so there are things that you truly need to let them do on their own, so that they can show their demonstrated interest. It also then begins to build their confidence about how they will tackle crises or problems or even just normal conversations on campus. If they have the ability to write an email to an admission officer. They're gonna then have the ability to feel confident to write an email to a faculty member or to maybe inquire to the Dean of Students Office about something that is important to them. So instead of you right getting that email, empower them to write that email. And then if you want to help them just shut it up a little bit and remind them that when you're writing an adult professionally, it's not the same language that we use in a text. Those are great tips and skills that a parent can provide along the way, I value that you will have questions that may be very different from your students. And as a parent who has led to children through the process, sometimes you want to ask them separately of your child, because otherwise you're going to receive eye rolls and or bumps in the road with an elbow saying, please stop asking questions. So I do want to respect that you have needs and may have time that you want to ask of us in this journey. And I welcome those emails and those phone calls so that you and I can potentially perform this partnership to help your students determine whether this is the right match. Because as I said, In the beginning, you know them better than we do. And you may be able to ask some questions that they quite haven't learned how to advocate for themselves along the way. A frequent one that I welcome from families is understanding how does my student that has a 504 plan or has some learning differences, or needs a special accommodation? Handle that at your college, I'd like to guide them through that process, I am thrilled to be able to point you in the right direction and give you the confidence that we have an office that can support you and your student may be embarrassed or may think that that's detrimental in the admission process. And let me tell you ask those questions. So I value that. And then in the third space, a certainly a value add value, the conversation about finances, and the financing models have changed from when many of us went through our own college experiences. price tags have significantly changed since many of us went through our own college experience. And so if you are a first gen family, or this child is the first to go to college, and so you're navigating this journey for the first time, please look at us as resources and let us know. My child has you at the top of their list. How can we work together to make this affordable? Are there things that we need to be thinking about in a different way. But what is less helpful is when you do everything for them. And so I want to empower you parents to begin to empower them to adulthood. If they come to you and say, Well, I just don't know about Walsh University and whether it is right for me whether all men's college is right for me. empower them reach out to your admission counselor, let's go make a visit. Oh, I think I saw that there's a webinar coming up. Have you thought about joining that? Give them the tools to do that demonstrated learning and we will all grow and all learn from each other. And we're helping your student get ready for that next phase of life. Also, don't fill out their applications for them and use your email not good. Not good. Ethan Sawyer 53:02 Because soon as we wrap here, what are some things that you hope that we let's talk first of students and parents that you hope they'll keep in mind? And then let's talk to counselors, you know, CBO counselors and staff? What would you like them to keep in mind, Christine Bowman 53:17 I think that we have created a really different, I'm gonna use the word monster in the college cycle. What used to be rather simple, is insanely complex. What used to be the opportunity to go and fulfill a dream or a goal. Now sometimes spills like has to be solidified in concrete, what you want to do for the rest of your life. Before you even ever step on a college campus. There are understandable financial ramifications with every decision that we make along the way. In all of this, I think one of the other challenges that we collaboratively face students, parents, counseling partners colleges, is that in all of this evolution, we've created a lot of stress and anxiety. And I'm sad for that, because that's not what it's supposed to be about. And so, when a family is considering whether a student should take that 28th, AP IB or dual credit course, and I use that number somewhat facetiously please don't ever take 28 high level courses. Ask yourself, Does this bring me joy? Or will this cause me more stress or anxiety that I don't need? Because what I am seeing in essays in counselor letters in student conversations is more anxiety than I've ever seen in my 30 year career and going into QA College does not have the same comfort, or feel or enthusiasm as it used to have. Young folks remember that this is intended to be a most amazing next phase of your life. And while it won't always be perfect, and days will be hard, and classes will be difficult, and you will make a grade on a test or a paper or a quiz that you are mortified, you will still finish the journey and become a citizen of the world. And that is okay. Parents, your students are going to evolve, they are probably not going to call you as frequently as you would like. They are not going to respond to your texts as fast as you would like. But that growth opportunity for them to evolve from graduating high school students to adulthood is what this experience is about. They're going to call you panicked, frustrated, homesick, challenged. And my words for you are to ask them this question. Do you want me to hear you, help you or hug you. Because sometimes, all they need is a hug, they just need to dump on you that they have had the worst day in the histories of days. Sometimes they just need to be heard, my roommate is making me crazy, and I don't know what to do. And once they've gotten it off their chest, they can move on. But sometimes they truly need help and guidance. But we play different roles at different times. And our natural parental instinct is to want to jump in and solve every single problem. And we shouldn't, and that is where they will grow. Counselor, counseling partners CBO friends, I want to thank you for your work, because it is a mess. It is overwhelming. And you are by far not paid what you need to be paid to do all the things that you are asked to do. But your knowledge, your experience as sometimes you get to visit our campuses when your students can't, the ability to give history from past students that you know of that have gone to our colleges and done amazing things. We're partners for reason, and I can't and I say this I in a collective college admission officer perspective. We can't do this without you. And so thank you, when when you don't hear it enough? No, there are silent cheerleaders in the background say thank you. Christine, Ethan Sawyer 57:40 thank you so much for your time. Christine Bowman 57:42 Thank you. Ethan Sawyer 57:46 Thanks, friends as ever for listening, you'll find the show notes at college essay guy.com/podcast, including the links to all the things we discussed. Don't forget to check out the video where Christine screen shares from her slate account and you can actually see what an admission officer sees when it comes to how you've been demonstrating your interest or not. It's pretty dang interesting. In fact, it's what inspired me to bring her on to the podcast. Stay tuned for our next episode where we get into the next thing that colleges care most about recommendation letters. That's with my wonderful co host Tom Campbell and a special guest whom I also adore. Be well and stay curious. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
