507: What Colleges Want (Part 7A): Recommendation Letter Crash Course for Students and Families

Show Notes

This week, Tom Campbell (CEG’s Community Manager) is joined by Ayesha King (Director of College Counseling at the International School of Los Angeles) to talk about letters of recommendation. They get into:

• What goes into a letter of recommendation?

• How are they evaluated by colleges?

• Who should students consider asking, and how do they ask?

• What can students and families do to ensure that their letters are the best they can be?

• What are FERPA rights and why should you waive them?

Ayesha King (she/her) has over twelve years of experience in admissions at the secondary, undergraduate, and postgraduate levels, developing her values of social justice, equity and access. She is currently the Director of College Counseling at the International School of Los Angeles (LILA), a French International school, where she is stretching her skills working with students considering post-secondary options all over the world. She holds her Bachelors degree from the University of Redlands and her Masters degree from California Lutheran University. Ayesha loves spending time with her two boys and two dogs, visiting Disneyland, and talking about pop culture.

This is the next episode in our series on What Colleges Want. Stay tuned for our upcoming episode about writing letters of recommendation for teachers and counselors. Tom will be joined by Hanah Lim (CEG’s Director of Workshops and a former high school English teacher), where they provide their tips, tricks, and hacks to help you write more efficient and effective letters for your students.

We hope you enjoy the conversation! 

Play-by-Play

• 2:49 – How important are letters of recommendation to admissions officers? 

• 5:55 – Why might it be called a “Letter of Advocacy” instead?

• 7:19 – When would a letter of recommendation make a big impact on a student’s application?

• 13:38 – Should students also share this important context if it’s already in their recommendation letter?

• 15:35 – How can students determine how many letters to request?

• 19:49 – What is being said in these letters?

• 26:38 – Which teachers are typically the best to ask for a recommendation letter?

• 29:51 – Why should students consider asking a teacher from a class they struggled in?

• 30:47 – What can students do to help their teachers & counselors write the best letter possible?

• 36:06 – What information should students share with their recommenders?

• 39:20 – How should students ask for a letter once they have determined who to ask?

• 44:41 – Do students ever see their letters of recommendation? 

• 48:24 – Closing advice for parents & students

ResourceS

• How to Ask for a Letter of Recommendation for College: Step-by-Step Guide for Students

• CollegeTransitions Blog Post – College Recommendation Requirements

• Podcast Ep. 505 – What Colleges Want (Part 5): A Crash Course in the Supplemental Essays + Application with Ethan Sawyer (College Essay Guy)

• How to Write a Successful Common App Activities List

• How to Use the Common App Additional Information Section: Guide + Examples

• 100 Brave + Interesting Questions

• Pedro Pascal Cries From His Head While Eating Spicy Wings

Show transcript

Tom Campbell  0:25  
Hey all Tom Campbell here, former Pomona and Holycross admissions officer turned current Community Manager at college essay guy, I'm keeping the train rolling on our nine part podcast series titled what colleges want. Today I sat down with Aisha King, who's a longtime college counselor, former admissions rep, and a volunteer counselor through college, this guy's very own match letters Scholars Program, where we talked about all things letters of recommendation, what they are, their importance in the admission process, how colleges evaluate them, who you should ask, and what students and families can do to ensure that the letters are the best they can be. Because as someone who used to write these babies as part of my job, I can tell you, they don't just write themselves. If you're a counselor or teacher listening to this, you may be thinking, hey, what about me? I'm the one who actually has to write this thing. Well, if you're not because we're also recording another rec letter episode specifically for counselors and teachers are myself and my amazing colleague, Hana Lim, CGS director of workshops, and a former high school English teacher will provide our very own tips, tricks and hacks to help you write more efficient and effective letters for your students. But first, let's go ahead and meet Ayesha Ayesha King has spent over 12 years of experience and admissions at the secondary undergraduate and postgraduate levels, developing your values of social justice, equity and access. She is currently the Director of college counseling at the International School of Los Angeles and also known as Lila, a French International School where she's stretching her skills working with students considering post secondary options all over the world. I should love spending time with our two boys and two dogs visiting Disneyland and talking about pop culture. And you all that pop culture bit is very true when it comes to Aisha because she's always keeping me in the know. For instance, thanks to her, I just found out about this Youtube series called the hot ones where a bunch of big celebrities have vulnerable conversations. Very college essay guy in fact, while tearing up with some of the spiciest hot wings, the host can find the one she recommended most is and I quote Pedro Pascal cries from his head while eating spicy wings. Well, we hope you cried tears of joy after listening to this episode and getting all of your burning hot, fiery questions about rec letters answered. Or as we like to call them letters of advocacy. Why do we prefer that name? Pray tell. Oh, you're just gonna have to listen to find out. Insert winky emoji


Are you sure it's so wonderful to collaborate with you as always, and I feel privileged and lucky with that we've done this on this very same topic. At this point. I can't even keep track.


Ayesha King  2:50  
So many times. I think for at this point


Tom Campbell  2:55  
we did the NASDAQ wack X super rap GAC. For those of you students who are listening, you're like, stop with the ACC, I want to hear about recommendation letters, just get to it. Here we go. Oh, yeah. So this whole podcast series, the what college is one podcast series. It's all kind of anchored. our North Star, if you will, is the state of college admission report produced by NASDAQ, which is the National Association for college admission counseling. And recommendation letters are an area of this report that oftentimes I would say when I present this data to especially students and families, oftentimes I would say they're a little surprised by kind of where recommendation letters fall in terms of the list of criteria points, elements that colleges typically look at when making admissions decisions. So according to this report, which was just released in 2023, out of 185, schools sampled, only about 11.9% of them Mark recommendation letters for counselors as considerably important in their admission process. And about 10.8% of them Mark teacher letter recommendations as considerably important. So I should looking at this report and kind of seeing this data. Are you surprised by these numbers? Or do they seem high or low to you as someone in this profession?


Ayesha King  4:07  
Yeah, I mean, from my reader days, and also, just from my context, I am not surprised by by this number of considerable importance being around 10 to 12%. I think that it's very rare that we'll see a letter, like really make or break a student's application and where they are, because really, it's adding additional context. And oftentimes, it solidifies and makes more concrete, what the applicant has already shared in their application through their transcripts or activities and all the things that they value and care about. But in some cases, the letter can actually add just that little bit of oomph to give that context that that is maybe missing or Where the nuances that a student may not be able to share themselves, or may share something that just gives an opportunity for the counselor to advocate for the student a little bit more. But where I think on this state of admissions report that that everybody's been kind of looking at and evaluating, particularly college essay guy would be that moderate area where it does matter, still, it's still taking into consideration. And so having that 40% of colleges do look at it and help to again, solidify what they're already seeing. But it's very rarely going to push a student out of the running or pull them out of obscurity into A into that admit or deny, you know, pool? I'll say, right.


Tom Campbell  5:47  
Yeah, I mean, I like to think of recommendation letters. As you know, interesting enough, when I shouldn't I presented on this topic at, I have mentioned it before the Super ACC ACC Conference, which is a merging of several different regional college counselors and admissions officers from the west coast from the Rocky Mountain area, coming together to share best practices about how to advocate for students better. And one of our attendees, I'm blanking on her name. But she came and said, we actually have rebranded or kind of like started to use the language letters of advocacy, versus letters of recommendation in our process in our school, just to help students and families get a little bit of a sense for, it's less of, you know, a teacher or a counselor recommending some students more than other students. It's the school trying to advocate for you to the best of their abilities with the information that they have access to, that you provided to them through, we're going to get into the swap more surveys through any of the pieces of information they request from you from maybe records and you know, notes and things from, you know, the time that you started at the school till the end or things like that, because oftentimes, as you mentioned, a said there, they usually do reiterate things that the student has shared in their own words, but with someone who knows a little bit more about what someone on the admissions end of the desk really needs to hear or know, or maybe have a little more detail around to make the best the best decisions possible. So correct.


Ayesha King  7:10  
And I'll just quick shout out to Robin and Nancy at Calabasas high school who rebranded to let Eric advocacy because we loved it when we heard it. And I now see it all the time. So shout out to Robin and Nancy at Cal best say, Oh, I love


Tom Campbell  7:27  
it. You remember that too? I'm feeling a little bit of shame that I couldn't take those days


Ayesha King  7:31  
off my Oh, they're in my neighborhood. I know them. Oh, I


Tom Campbell  7:35  
love that. Yeah. So in that kind of vein of like, okay, well, rec letters are not this thing that's make or break in my college application process. Hopefully that's providing a little bit of relief. But are there situations from your experience, I show where letters have been something that really did impact a student's candidacy? Or was this thing that really, you know, move the needle on a student's file or did provide some really, really important details that otherwise if that letter wasn't there, it would be a different outcome for the student? Yeah,


Ayesha King  8:03  
I think it's really important to understand that a lot of high schools actually look really different. And the populations while at some schools, it's pretty, or in some areas and regions, it's all the same. Almost always there's there's gonna be that anomaly student or that anomaly curriculum or case that's a little bit different. So I can speak from my particular experience. I've worked in schools that have international students, students who transfer in from different countries. I currently work at a school that has French baccalaureate and International Baccalaureate curricula, and instead of what a lot of our students may know, through the College Board, AP curriculum, so I think it's important. And it can really help when a counselor or teacher can provide a little bit of context to those unconventional curriculum or something that's maybe a little bit different to understand, like, you know, for some of our students who are doing the international component of the French baccalaureate, that's six extra hours of math every week, if they're doing the math specialty. So having some of that quantitative data that your teachers or your counselors might share, can move the needle a little bit, because it's different than what most other students are doing and what typical curriculum they're seeing. So if a reader were just to look at the transcript, and they see math, they may not understand that that's a super additional level of math that you're taking in a different language, you know, so giving that just that teeny bit of context can add support to what your regular looks like or what your travel or commute might be like at my last school students commuted over an hour regularly to be at school, so maybe they can't do as many activities as a student in nursing area be because they can't dry, you know, when their drive and getting home so late, they're not in the same position to be able to do the level of extracurricular activities that their others in their cohort might. So just being able to add those little bits of context that really fill out a student's profile, but don't, they don't hinder it, I'll say that they don't hinder anything, it just adds a little bit to show, hey, like, the student maybe didn't communicate this very well, or didn't know how to, or you're not seeing it within the confines of the common app description. So let me share this with you to help you understand the different aspects of their life that go into their application. And it could help support moving the needle a little bit,


Tom Campbell  10:50  
right, for sure. So I used to be the admissions reader for the Pacific Northwest at Pomona, I would read applications from high schools in Oregon and Washington. And there was a student who was applying who, as was our reading process, you know, I first start out with the transcript, right, just the state of college admissions report. And I look at the grades that the student had, and I knew the high school the student was applying from, so I knew their curriculum really well. And I knew the types of grades and courses that I was used to seeing on applicants transcripts at Pomona that were more competitive classes, more advanced classes, because it was highly selective school. And this student did not really have that transcript I was used to seeing it was, you know, quite a shock, actually, to get to it and be like, Oh, wow, and in my mind, just to be very transparent with you all listening, I was like, Alright, this is gonna be a quick read, this student's not going to be competitive, because I have concerns about their foot in the door when it comes to their academic foundation and preparedness. And that just makes it a lot more difficult to advocate for a student. But then I get to the req letter, which is the next document after looking at the transcript, and basically it's like, right from the start kind of like I don't know, if it was like folded, I lighted what was there, but it's like, stop what you're doing and like really be in this moment with me in this letter, because I need to tell you about the student, and the things that they've gone through, and why you should admit them, and they're not a risk or a threat, or they're they're ready to do amazing things at your campus and beyond. And the counselor who really, you know, trust and respects like went through in great detail about really difficult life circumstances that the student went through related to their family that impacted their academics. And I mean, the stories that were shared in that letter were like really raw, and really, I think, underscored that. Here's why, like, this is what it was. And I'm not just saying this to like, give you fluff, like there's like concrete reasons behind it. And I use this counselors rec letter as like the anchor for me, my North Star to help advocate for the student. Again, this is like a one in a million chance in my six years of reading hundreds and hundreds 1000s of files, like it's on one hand, right? Where this is kind of that that real tipping point for a student in a good way, right. But it does, it does happen every now and then for the for the 99% of you listening, your letters are gonna be, you know, seen, there'll


Ayesha King  13:04  
be positive reassurance of what you present. But for the most part, it's not going to be like, Oh, my gosh, this amazing story that that transcends the rest of the application, I think, like, consider it a piece of the application that you're presenting and building within that profile. But I think those cases are extraordinary. And we've already talked about and that's an extraordinary kid with an extra extraordinary circumstances. So almost in that way it does line up when what we're seeing, or what the what was presented in that array. So just being aware that we're not expecting, they're not expecting that level of brilliance or differentiation of the term from everybody. Yeah, for sure.


Tom Campbell  13:54  
So now that we kind of maybe have a little bit more of a sense of like how recommendation letters are discussed in admissions committees, situations where maybe they can be super helpful, oh, actually free move on to that, when it comes to, you know, if you are that student who the one I just described to, you know, the counselor talks about the amazing, impactful things that they were doing related to indigenous peoples rights and lobbying in DC and all these amazing details. You know, the student was sharing that, of course, as well through other areas of their application. And I just want to take a moment to talk to students about how Yes, it's really helpful for admissions officers to have this letter from someone who works in an educational setting who kind of speaks that language for lack of a better word. They also really value hearing it in your own words, too. You know, so Ethan and myself if you've been listening to the podcast, we did one on supplemental essays before this one. And we also talked about the activities listen Additional Information section that many different application types have for students to be able to talk more in their own words about how certain things went. So it's that kind of like combination when right like the school is confirming or reiterating those details that a student is also using their application to share more insight about shared details and the ways that they saw and move through a problem or a challenge or a hiccup. So kind of when those things when those two things are there for the admissions officer, it's like really giving them like the material, the goods to be able to advocate as much as possible for you. So yeah, I'd say don't necessarily just be like, alright, well, I already told my teacher or my counselor about these things, like they're gonna do that for me. Yes, they will do that for you. And it's still valuable for you to share from your own insight as well, using application opportunities, like the Additional Information section.


Ayesha King  15:38  
So that's a great point. It shouldn't be the first time they've heard about something in within that counselor letter or a teacher letter. If it's something of that importance, I'll say, yeah,


Tom Campbell  15:51  
yeah. Awesome. So now that we have a better sense of kind of like how recommendations are letters are read and evaluated by admissions officers. But let's get a little bit more into the pragmatics of like, okay, well, how many do I need to ask for, you know, what are most colleges looking for? When it comes to number of recommendations blend of counselor teacher? None of the above? How do students kind of equip themselves to know what they're getting into when it comes to this potential requirement?


Ayesha King  16:18  
I mean, that's a great question. I think that it can vary a lot across the board. But my typical recommendation for with my students is, you're gonna get a counselor letter, that's part of my job. So that's a given. And then it's usually only one academic letter at this point, but some schools will ask for two. So be prepared to have two teachers that you're ready to ask, but how do we find out how many and who which, which schools require? What if you're using the common app, and under the Search tab, you can actually filter, which schools do not require a letter from a counselor or which schools do not require a letter for a teacher, or any, etc. But I think it's always good to have one ready to go and on deck, because you may be applying for scholarships. So maybe you apply solely to the Cal States in the UCS who don't require letters of recommendation, but you're going to apply to scholarships sent me request one, so or two, I've seen a lot of scholarship committees asked her to. So I think it's really important that you have prepared and are ready for that instinct, because a lot of the time you're doing that in the spring, and teachers are kind of out of that loop. So asking poor academic teachers, English, math, language, our history, the sciences, and foreign language can also account within that are as core academic teachers. And then at least one of those typically from 10th and 11th grade years, just because that's when content is really MIDI, there's a lot of challenge that comes up in the 10th and 11th grade. And then also the secondary letter that has a little bit more play, right? Like you can choose a teacher sort of out maybe outside of the area that you're interested in studying, maybe if you're really devoted to the arts, but aren't necessarily applying for an arts program. But you want to show an additional aspect of yourself where you did an amazing project in your art class, like asking your art teachers is a very valid choice in that instance. And then college transition blog also has a database that you can see which schools are requiring letters, how many they're requiring, and from who so just be aware, if they're asking for two academic letters, they very likely want two letters from core academic teachers, if they just say teachers have at least one of them be where academics try to attend to their allotted grade.


Tom Campbell  18:58  
Such a good point about the scholarship possibility, right. And it is so possible for students to have an admissions process that doesn't have any letters like University California system, like you said, but it is definitely I'd say an area where like, it doesn't hurt to have something like this, depending on if you change your list, you know, you change your mind you this happened to me, I actually applied to Occidental College in LA, like the week before it was due. Because I found it I stumbled upon it doing like last minute college research and I was like in that state of like, oh, did I apply to enough schools? Like I don't know if I did. And you know, thankfully, I already had rec letters in place, you know, from other schools I applied to that could easily be sent so I didn't have to worry about it. But it is great. You know, even if you're like, at this point as if you're listening to this as a junior and you're like, oh well I'm only applying to UCS or an in state school in my my state that I'm applying from and they don't require letters so I don't need it. You never know it is I think helpful to have some at least, you know, conversation or but even like something from some One who can advocate for you in a school setting, because the possibility of it coming up is decently high. So another big question that we get right? Is it okay? If these colleges are asking for one type of letter or a combination of different letters, what's being said in these pieces of writing, we're gonna get into this in a little bit, but you don't always have access to the letters of recommendation that are written on your behalf. And there's some really, I'd say, valid and understandable reasons as to why that is. But in general, from your experience, I feel like well, how would you say that counselor letter, you know, it was written by that student's college counselor, school counselor, potentially, depending on who it is in your own high school? And the teacher letters? Like, is there a lot of overlap between things that they're saying? Is there some division? What's the kind of breakdown of like the counselor letter and its purpose, or where it's the most helpful, and then the teacher letter on that other end of the spectrum? Yeah, so


Ayesha King  20:52  
we've presented this as counselors more like your secondary source, your compilation of who you are presenting as a personality, maybe like a person, a leader, your roles, women in the school that are different from the classroom, maybe, or, and also additionally, things that are happening within your family contacts, pieces, that wouldn't necessarily be clear on the transcript or pieces of your application. So again, those points of advocacy that we talked about, could potentially move the needle or add a little bit more conversation for the reader to bring to a committee table. That's where the counselor letter comes in. But the teachers are, we say, a primary source, because when you think about it, you're going, you're applying to college, you're applying to go sit in classrooms and learn and be a part of a community of learners. And how does that look for you? How have you brought that to the table already, your teachers who have seen you on a day to day basis, typically, most schools or you know, at least are seeing you regularly have seen us through a lot of different changes of growth opportunities of how you present in a group presentation or a group project, they really are looking to the teachers to say this is how the student engages in a classroom with academic material with academic work, but they're also maybe thinking about building a profile right of who the student is. So are you the bridge builder bringing people together? Are you someone who challenges the status quo opinion in the class? Are you bringing some engagement to class discussions, and maybe you're not necessarily the loudest person in the room. I don't know anything about that. But you bring a really thoughtful pieces when you come to talk, or you share it different or you know how to time it exactly to maybe what closes the discussion, you know, things like that for your class. And your teachers have more insight, Bailey built a rapport with you, they have that profile of who you are. And they can actually point to specific instances, which are really helpful in the readers context of being like, Oh, they did this amazing presentation on Huckleberry Finn and metaphor of rivers or something in their paper. And then the, the reader gets to think about oh, like, that would be cool in one of our literature classes, if they brought that kind of thinking. Because ultimately, as we said, like, academics are the core base of what colleges are looking for. And this is, academics are beyond the grades, there's the critical thinking piece, the community piece, being a learner in an environment that is more collaborative than maybe what you've been used to before. So giving the teachers can give that perspective of you. And that's where it's really valuable in who you select, as well to write your letters of recommendation. So


Tom Campbell  24:10  
that's a great distinction that that primary and secondary storage division, and it just helps, I think, for someone who isn't necessarily going to read these letters to get a sense of like, okay, here's the role or the value that each of these pieces of information can bring. But also knowing that, you know, for schools that only ask for teacher, you know, recs, that means that the school, has the college individual colleges been able to make the best decisions possible with only having that primary source, and that's for, you know, their purposes, that's what they need. But yeah, it's super helpful way to kind of just like, think of those two pieces of advocacy and their role. Something I mean, I always like to say that in terms of like, any recommendation that's being shared on your behalf to a college, usually the three C's are things that they're doing, which is clarifying, they're explaining extenuating circumstances or potentially confusing parts of your narrative. They're contextualized They're reviewing the students setting the world they're coming from or the space that they're occupying, you know what, as a classroom or an entire school, they're also usually contrasting, there's a, there's a contrast between maybe the ways that you are different from the other students in your school environment or your local area. Typically, letters do kind of mention, like, you know, I should, like you were mentioning like, this students, the bridge builder in the class, the student is the quiet but powerful, booming voice, when they they have something to say it's very profound. And they, they have that mic drop moment, like, you know, once every week or so, that's a way for someone in admissions to get a sense of like, okay, there's a lot of commonalities among the students who are applying from a certain school or area, here are the things like the special sauce for this particular student at it. And so that that clarification, that context, that contrasts, usually when those three C's are kind of, you know, present in a student's application, so in some combination, it's giving that admissions officer, what they need,


Ayesha King  25:55  
I'll say to, like, just an anecdote for me, a lot of my students speak multiple languages, and are often like that understanding of our school, but say, a student who transferred in from an American school and hasn't been speaking French the way that everybody else has to kindergarten, and they're dropped into a French classroom, or contexts, like the teacher being able to say, yeah, they didn't have the same level of French, but they've, they've really grown in that, you know, or they've been able to hold their own, or they've brought that American perspective to these cultural conversations, I think those are opportunities that teachers can put into a letter form that, again, sometimes can move that needle to help, especially if you're getting maybe a B in that class, and you're not feeling 100% about it, like the teachers actually can add a lot of context to support the narrative about the trend, correct?


Tom Campbell  26:54  
What is the best advice you can give to the listening audience here of which teachers are typically best to think about asking when it comes to these req letters? Sure.


Ayesha King  27:04  
So some of these teachers you've probably developed pretty strong relationships with, maybe you don't always think of them that way. But if they've seen you day in and day out for a year, and they marry, they very likely have a good sense of who you are, especially if you've done well in their class. But so teachers who know you, maybe you, you're hanging out a little bit longer and chat after class, ask questions have gone to tutoring sessions with them. Those are great teachers to ask because they really seeing your trajectory within the course, a teacher who maybe serves as a club advisor for a club that you're a part of, or a coach or something where they exceed you and multiple contacts within the school. So maybe your English teacher also is the journalism advisor and you you've been on the school papers and your sophomore year, don't discount to if it's only been a year that you've known them or two years, that's a lot of time, a lot of time for teachers to get to know kid. So don't feel like it has to have been, I had to have known them since I was a freshman or something to get that kind of quality of interaction. Again, teachers require academic subjects I've already listed that. Definitely 10th and 11th. Grades, that's where a lot of our readers are focusing and where you're building your profile your resume within the school, and teachers who can speak to your willingness to collaborate to your curiosity level and how you've pursued academics really, they're really great teachers to ask. So maybe, if you've been in biology, and then you took AP Bio, and it was the same teacher, or even just one of those teachers, they can really show like, the student really engaged in this and then they wanted to take the advanced course, you know, so building out more of that profile. You don't have to think about what only asking STEM teachers if you're applying for STEM majors are only asking humanities teachers, if you're applying for Humanities, I mean, a lot of students ask their history teacher because there's so much critical thinking that happens in history, and they're applying for over math or computer science or what have you, but they've done very well in in history, and they want to show that aspect of themselves. You certainly don't have to do that. But it's it's an opportunity to show a little bit of context of who you are, is particularly when writing skills, which is important. Yeah,


Tom Campbell  29:35  
I think that that point about the subject that the teacher teaches is such a great one because it's something where they're more curious to hear about like how you interact in the classroom and the role that you take on any like, you know, big lightbulb moments or epiphanies that you had or a project that you worked on where you like went all in and you know if you have a teacher that comes to mind who like saw you in your stride and like saw you like really making some like very impactful to decisions in terms of your future goals and your path. That's a great person to ask, especially if it is from that those core academic subjects, like you mentioned. And then another thing, too is, you know, you mentioned with me, Aisha a little bit about how sometimes, it can be a little surprising when college counselors like us will, will be like, Hey, have you thought about the teacher? The classes you took last year where you actually didn't do that? Great. They're like, well, the letter is not going to be amazing, because I got to be, what would you say to that student? Who, understandably, maybe it has that mentality? Yeah,


Ayesha King  30:29  
well, first of all, a B, it's a passing grade one, two is actually not bad, right? Like, for let's start there, because A's are not necessarily distributed freely. So I think a B is a pretty solid grade to get in an advanced course, or a course in general. But I wouldn't say that I used to advise this a lot. Actually, it's like, maybe sometimes that class where you got to be, you actually really had to work for that B, and you showed the teacher that you were pushing yourself, you you took it seriously, you did the best you could, and you did end up with a B at the end of the day, but the effort you gain was more than a plus working in that sentence. So it can add that, you know, I'm not slacking off. Or even sometimes, like there are teachers that are that say, I only give three A's, a majority of the students who perform very well get B's or B pluses, you know, like, teachers sometimes put their own weird parameters are things because they value, you know, whatever they got in the classroom, and, and that can be really hard. I think sometimes students are like, Oh, that's gonna mess up my GPA, it's gonna ruin everything. But you know, if they can speak to your work ethic, and your willingness to challenge yourself, and to push forward upse, huge, I mean, you took an AP class, and maybe you would have gotten an A easily and the honors are regular, but you went and pushed for that AP class and you ended up with a B, first of all, you still get the benefit of the GPA bump, and two, it shows that you challenge yourself. So that teacher could actually speak very well to the characteristics that colleges are working for, right, those positive character attributes are


Tom Campbell  32:16  
totally very, very, very true. So in 2022, to 2020, through the school year, the national average of a student to counselor ratio is 385. To one, which it's always shocking to hear that number I should write because we have worked in schools, not quite like that now. But it's it's a reality for many of you tuning in, you know it for students and families. And so for those students who are really concerned, hey, I now know that these letters are not make or break. Right. And I, you know, hopefully, I'm feeling some reassurance around that. But I still am worried because, you know, there's probably these kids who are applying from these schools where their counselor does know them and has met with them multiple years where their teachers know them so, so in depth, and they're coming from the small classes, and I, you know, was trying to be a good kid and not get in the way. So, for those students who maybe were just worried about coming from an environment where I don't think there's much that anyone can really say about me, what would you say to that student,


Ayesha King  33:10  
the great thing is, a lot of counselors recognize that this is all an area for that, and that they need to really, you know, fill and that, that they want to be advocating for you. But they can't always do it at the level that you may expect or want that they expect or want for themselves, because they have these huge case loads. And teachers who have classrooms of you know, for the kids, and you just did your work and put your head down. That's why and so what's really great is that there are these questionnaires that exist and a lot of counselors will have them in their offices, teachers often have them as well. I've worked with teachers that have their own, I've provided templates to teachers as well, and I have my own as a counselor, and in this is a really great opportunity. Basically you as a student can fill out information and give your counselors your teachers information about yourself that you really do want reflected and, and can give them a little bit of a context of who you are and what you would like shared in in your letter and I know that sometimes sounds like well, then in my just writing my own letter. No, because we are adults and we have more context and ability to turn it into admission speak but it can sometimes be you'd be surprised maybe what's your what adults actually do notice about you or have seen even if you haven't built a relationship together and having that little memory jog that opportunity to share something about yourself that maybe they don't know yet something funny anecdotes or things that you like to do that aren't necessarily clear from your transcript. Those are things that you can really share in that Jr questionnaire. are and the more that you put into it, the more that will come out of it, I would say so give it the Groppi toss it you, you want your letters to reflect as well. And I will tell you, teachers and counselors appreciate it so much when it more than a one line, throw away answer. Give us more, give us how you felt in that moment. I know that like in the counselor questionnaire, there's a lot of generic information. But there's also some a little bit deeper, maybe you've noticed some CG kind of questions coming into those questionnaires, because the counselor, again, is writing more about you, as a person as a community member. And they need some of those anecdotes and stories. Your teacher, in their questionnaire might want to know what was an impactful book, or a homework assignment or read a project that you worked on that you're really proud of in my class and can give them that context so that they can write about it from their perspective, oh, when I read this, you know, I was actually really surprised by the nuance that the student put in that they were giving to the material what they saw, which was so different than maybe what the other students in the class saw. So that's a really great use of your time and an opportunity to share more about yourself in in the context of that application.


Tom Campbell  36:29  
Yeah, I love that point about like, counselors and teachers like craving and appreciating just having more information on you. Having more information for people in your school, you know, they can choose what is most helpful, from their professional opinion to highlight the more that you give them, the more they can advocate for you, right? So, really, and I've I've read many a questionnaire from students that were like, we asked them for, like, 50 words as a response, and they gave five. And for that student, I'm like, Okay, well, I'm only given you gave me five words, other kids gave me 50, and gave me a lot more detail. And that is going to be reflected in what I'm able to share on your behalf, right. So you get in what you put out when it comes or you get out when you put in when it comes to your own advocacy for yourself with this letter writing process. So definitely don't skip those questionnaires. Don't just think of them as a chore or something that you just have to throw some answers together. Because again, you know, you're you're putting yourself in the best position when you really sit down and take some time and thought and reflection when putting them together. So on the vein of kind of questionnaires and equipping teachers and counselors to write that best letter, you don't want to give just a little more advice to students about, you know, sometimes they're wondering, should I send in like an extra resume to a counselor or a teacher beyond what they've asked me? You know, what types of information should I be sharing with them, to help them help that help them help me?


Ayesha King  37:50  
I think that, like I said, giving them some context and er growth in the class, some of your best projects or assignments that you brought in maybe a group project where you really stepped it up and had a lot, that's really great for that. The teachers or counselors, there's also this, this thing about really sharing your personal story, but also knowing that that is within your right to decide what you want to share. And you are welcome to do that in your additional income, places that you want to, maybe you don't want to share it, that's fine. But if there's something that your counselor knows about you or that you've disclosed to them, and they're asking you, can I disclose it to the college's, you may want to give them that that benefit of being able to because they can do it in what we call like admission speak, they can, they can bring that context to who you are, without necessarily making it all about that right in giving you more depth. If they think it's going to be beneficial. In some cases, they may say, you know, that's not necessary information to share. But again, as we bring it back to letters of advocacy, a lot of times when we're in the throes of things that are difficult, we can sometimes downplay what those are. And as adult people who have seen kind of a little bit more of the world in the context of things, we want to share those with other adults in the sense that that different and a challenge that you've overcome with grace or dignity, like these are pieces that really can add to your profile. And that may fill gaps that you didn't maybe know that were that were there because we know the comprehensiveness of the application process and the pieces of the application process. So I just want to caution you like you get to control that. You do not have to share it. But what We want, if we find it beneficial or think it will be, we will ask you and give you that courtesy of, I think it's good to share it. If you feel more comfortable with me sharing it, trust that, that I'm going to do it in that sensitive manner. That doesn't profile you as, as a student with, you know, suffering or something like that. But more, this is an aspect of what they're dealing with. And I want to share that with my colleagues so that they can give you the full read, so to speak, right, and have that full understanding of who you are. Totally.


Tom Campbell  40:37  
Yeah, I think that that scale of like, Is this too much information? Or am I comfortable disclosing this with a counselor? You know, sometimes they'll ask questions on these, you know, surveys or questionnaires that they ask students and families to fill out that may seem more personal than you'd expect for college and college admissions. Right, isn't it? It's just be about like, how hardworking I am. And you know how much I've achieved? Yes. And, you know, they're also wanting to know a lot more about how you'll contribute to their campus and the positive character attributes and values that you're bringing as well. Right. So we did a podcast all about positive character attributes. And that's something that in this neck report, the state of college admissions report, it's a very highly ranked, I guess, you could say, criteria point for various colleges and universities in their admission process. And it looks different from school to school. But I want to read a quick excerpt from actually MIT posted this on their own website and resources around Okay, rec letters, how are they used? How do we read them, just to give students, families and counselors more of a sense of on the other end, how they unfold and how they play out. And so the letter the little extra goes, Suriname is an outstanding young woman whose academic record may not fully reflect her ability. Her parents were divorced during her junior year, and for several years, years before that, or home situation had been in turmoil with a great deal of fighting between her parents, her father has an alcohol problem. And so now I'm certainly under a great deal of emotional distress. The fact that she has been able to do as well as she has done, given the circumstances says a lot about her. Now that the home situation has stabilized, her performance has improved. I believe her senior year grades are a much better reflection of her ability. Now I've read this excerpt for lots of different groups of people, for students, for counselors, and I polled people to be like, What do you think of this, and a lot of them are like, this seems way too intrusive, or like way too much information that someone that admissions doesn't need to know. But the critique from MIT and I quote is, you may wonder whether or not the above information is appropriate in a letter of evaluation. It is, exclamation point, we appreciate anything that gives us insight and perspective into a student's performance and environment. Comments about problems that a student has experienced will help us understand the context in which they have accomplished whatever they have achieved, the extent to which they have dealt with these problems is useful to us, for us to know as well. So you know, when it comes to things like positive character attributes, someone reading this letter is seeing resilience. They're seeing personal responsibility that they're seeing growth, they're seeing forgiveness, maybe potentially, depending on the way this story unfolds, and what they're gathering from the rest of the letter. But those are all things that having someone who has those qualities and values in a classroom in a campus environment is a huge benefits the rest of the students there. So yeah, those those details again, like, follow your follow your arrow as my favorite, Kacey Musgraves would say, Were your compass around your level of comfort with revealing these things. You know, students are coming from lots of different cultural contexts and environments where maybe it's just really taboo and not something that they share outside of their family unit. And that's completely your prerogative. But I'd say if a counselor or teacher does, you know, mentioned based on their professional opinion, needing or, or thinking that your candidacy will really be helped with a little more of that context, I'd say listen to them, right, they have experience they have, they're trying to do this to be in your corner, you know, and to give you the most options possible and give those colleges what they know, they might need to make the most informed decision. So I'd say don't take their recommendations or they're slightly but always at the end of the day, go with your comfort level, first and foremost, because that's this is your process, and share what you feel most called to share. One thing that I always recommend students take a look at is our college essay guy 100. Brave answer interesting questions. So this is a list that I've actually encouraged counselors to use in their own questionnaire writing process for their students, because it gets a little bit beyond the surface level, like you mentioned, I shove like, what you know, I don't know what types of questions that are typically asked, like, what are the activities you're involved in? What major Do you want to go into, right? That's great for of course, for the counselor to know. But sometimes some of the questions that you'll see on the college essay guy 100 braid and interesting questions list are things like, What's the toughest decision you've ever made? You know, what's it like being you right now? If you had only two hours left on Earth, what would you do? What activity do you do that makes you feel most like yourself? So you know, if they're giving a list of activities you're involved in, even adding a question like that, At just give someone who's advocating for you more of a sense of like, okay, yes, I'm involved in all these things. But like, this is where I really feel like I'm in my stride. And where I really can make an impact and a difference, right? So I'd say that list, you don't have to necessarily fill out all the questions. But it's one that like, if you pick a handful of ones that like you're, you're excited to answer or you feel like you have an interesting answer, or it would reveal a lot about you. And the reason why you've made the choices you've made or who you are very, very helpful information both for your counselors, but also even for you with your essay writing process, the more you kind of start to do things like this, the more you equip yourself with being able to write your own letters of recommendation for yourself, which are your college essays, in a sense, right? And then he even on that vein, you know, sending in your essay brainstorming work. So if you're working with college essay guy, you're a match lighters scholar, you are taking a college essay guy course and you're asked to do some brainstorming work there, share that with your counselor and your teachers. So that way they know the things that like you have thought about the telling colleges, they might often be also really surprised to first buy some of your answers. And that's always great when you read a letter that's like, oh, my gosh, I recently found out that this kid is really into baking. And so am I and we bonded over that in class and can actually help you build relationships and strengthen connections with these educators too. So I'd say 100 revenue, interesting questions, and your own brainstorming work are great things to share with your your school advocates. Okay, so we now have, I'd say a very clear understanding of letters, their role, why certain colleges ask for them, and what types of information are typically included in them. Now, let's maybe help students a little bit with like the pragmatic nuts and bolts of like, actually getting the letter to be a thing. So what would you say would be a first step now that the student knows, they might need a letter for their college process? How would they approach someone to ask for this letter in an ideal world?


Ayesha King  46:46  
Yeah. So first of all, I think it's important to understand the context that that I'm coming from and where I've been. So I've worked in primarily smaller schools, where teachers have a lot of relationships with the kids, and they feel like they want kind of this two pronged approach of Ask me in person, and then follow up with an email. So I think, kind of feel out what's the what's the deal at your school? And how do people communicate F for seniors who have just followed the process, like, what was their their best approach to it, if you have some friends who are older, I think that that's always a good stepping stone. But I would say, be prepared, give yourself some time. So I think towards the end of your 11th grade year, that junior year, that's some perfect time to be asking, particularly if you're going to be asking your junior year teacher, because you're in front of them, you see them there, they're evaluating you already. Ask them if they'd be willing to write you a letter of recommendation. And if they say yes, and a lot of a lot of teachers actually even offer at the end of junior year. So it's a good time to just start that process. And to give them a sense of when you're applying. So I always have these three questions. And it's funny, because I just adjusted one of them today, because of what we've talked about. But I would say, will you write me a letter of recommendation? What would be helpful for me to include in my questionnaire or whatever form that the teacher is asking for, and whether you'd be able to write this letter on time, and I think, deadline driven culture, so it's really important, if you're planning on applying early decision, early action, those deadlines come up really fast. In the school year, it feels like, oh, November's so far away, and then all of a sudden, it's, it's at your doorstep. And so I think, the more ahead of time, you can ask those questions, the better. And then it's always good to follow up when the school year starts again, or right before the school year starts, send an email so that it's kind of at the top of their inbox. It was so great. I'm, I'm so excited to maybe have you again, in this class or whatever, or oh, I'm going to miss being in this class with you. Thank you so much for offering to write a letter of recommendation for me. My first deadline is November 1. And I'd really appreciate if you are still able to write a letter of recommendation for me. And then once they answer, send them the common app request and get it out of your inbox so that it is at the top of their to do list within common app. They may not send it through common app if your school does score Naviance there's all these different ways, but just be mindful of what that is and give them that timeline ahead of time so that they can organize it as well because some of those awesome the best teachers that you have their four other five other kids 20 Other kids best teachers too, and so they might be overwhelmed. They might Have a cutoff for how many letters they will write because they want to write exceptional letters. And so being ahead of the game can can definitely help ensure that you have the best lineup for yourself. Those are my tips. Yeah,


Tom Campbell  50:14  
I mean, I think definitely, obviously, the sooner the better just to kind of get that ball rolling and get that piece, you know, out of your core and in someone else's is I'd say, like, a relief to you in a way to to like have that kind of be happening. Sometimes students worry like, but like, what if they don't do it, I would say it's very rare for a teacher not to follow through with a commitment that they made to a student. So that's something that I would try not to sweat as much, though really, first and foremost, I'd say like, really, this is an area to listen to your school's policies and procedures, right? So kind of like Aisha was mentioning, right, use the difference between the application software's at different high schools use scores, the Naviance, the Maya learnings, you know, sometimes schools, individual high schools will prefer to send documents through that system alone, and others like even actually, we're just saying today that you've transitioned to working now at a school where the default is sending it through things like the common app, or the UCaaS application for students applying to UK universities. So it just depends on the high school you're coming from, they have reasons as to why they have a preferred method there. So following like, the deadline requests that they give you, you know, when I worked as a school counselor, counselor in high school, we gave students like, you need to ask for teachers by this day, otherwise, you're not gonna get as good of a letter, because everyone else is doing it by this date. Right? So definitely following the deadlines, the procedure that your school is communicating with you and if you ever do have questions, do reach out, don't just be like, Oh, well, this is probably good enough for like, oh, guests and hope that it sent in, right. Like, you just want to make sure that all your ducks are in a row. And the things that are needed for your application to be complete, are being sent in through the way that your your high school prefers. And, you know, in terms of kind of one thing that we get students get a lot of questions about in terms of like, the procedure is like, is there a point in this process where I get to look at the letter? What about what about that?


Ayesha King  52:02  
Yeah, so no, it's the short answer. But just so you know, there is you actually have a lot of control, and there's something called the FERPA waiver. And it's kind of a you have to do it, you have to waive your your right to see the letter beforehand. This is a measure of confidentiality between the schools, your high school and the colleges receiving it. And it's just it gives a little bit of insurance to the college admission reader that this is a candid and true letter from the teacher or the counselors perspective. And so I would very highly recommend that you are signing the FERPA waiver, because some teachers and counselors won't write a letter, that's not waived. And there's opportunities to waive it both on the through Damiani through score or through the common app. And then there's other areas like other countries in the world, they don't really care if you see the letter or not. So just being mindful of where you're applying, and all of that. But for the most part, the expectation is that you will not be seeing your letter. Now I will say I have never actually seen a negative letter come through maybe one, but that student's profile was pretty set before I saw the letter. Like of when we talk about real deterrence and concrete, you know, evidence, it was just additional pieces. To add to the profile that we already saw. A very few of us really want to hurt a student in this process, we're going to give, we're going to be honest, but we're also going to put everything as positively as we can. And if it counselor does not feel comfortable, or a teacher does not feel comfortable writing a letter, because they don't want to negatively impact the student, they will tell you that they're maybe not the best person to write the letter or they don't have the bandwidth or something. So just you know, it's like when people tell you who they are believe them like that. I'm going to say that for this process as well. Like, if a teacher or counselor is choosing not to write a letter, it's not usually a failing on your part. It's usually a bandwidth and time issue, but it's also that they want you to be reflected the most positively you can be and maybe they feel that they can't write the best letter and somebody else in the building can. So for all of those reasons, the FERPA waiver is more of a silent suggest, like requirement rather than ingestion. And it is a part of the application process and that goes for your transcripts as well. Your schools should have some kind of process for releasing transcripts. You do have control over that too. Yeah,


Tom Campbell  54:57  
well, I said thank you. Thank you again, so much for being here. Your effort for sharing all these great tips and wisdom, different exercises, students can do questionnaires, they can really go all in on to put their best foot forward with these recommendation letters and, and just doing a little bit of kind of like recalibration for like, Hey, I get that you may want to really hype this up as being something that needs to be take up all this time as your your junior and senior year but truly invest in be thorough with it, but don't have it completely dominate your college admission process, which you have a lot of action items on there. rec letters, ideally are ones that are not going to, you know, have you be drowning and concern and anxiety. But any final words of advice that you'd give to our listeners about could be about rec letters, or could just be about the college application process in general things you maybe say to your students and families to provide that reassurance or that perspective that sometimes can get lost in translation.


Ayesha King  55:48  
I think that my biggest thing and how I always advise students is that there are lots of opportunities where this process is in your control. So do not let those opportunities fall to the wayside because you are stressing or getting in your head about every little thing and really feel the confidence in your ability to choose and advocate for yourself in this process. So there are pieces that you don't always have all control over, like the letters of recommendation. But there are so many opportunities within your supplemental essays within your personal essay within your activities to really showcase who you are. And you are great and wonderful. And there are so many wonderful things about you. But you really need to share those with us and you need to be thoughtful or with them. And you need to be thoughtful about how you do it. And the most successful pieces that I've seen, or students that I've seen have been the ones that give the supplemental essays to the colleges that they really care about going to the best effort, and plot and time. Because this is a reflection process. It's a self reflection process. And if you can articulate those great pieces of yourself and why they fit in those spaces, you will very likely see success. And that is 100% in your control. Do not leave your supplemental essays to the last week, the last day. Start those almost as early as you do your personal statement and I think you will see and feel very confident in what you present because as you write some of your supplemental essays, you may find that you do not want to go to that school any longer. And it might save you some time and and headache as well. I don't know if that's like a whole other podcast probably but oh, hey, I feel totally


Tom Campbell  57:52  
and you know what this series is going to keep on rolling. We're coming towards the tail end of it here with Rec letters, but everything you said totally snaps claps very much resonates with me, especially the controlling we can control peace. It's something that even myself and many folks who've done ecologists ago webinar, we say time and time again, and I just want to close out with some wise words from seven millennial philosophers, you might say, which is when the world seems to get too tough, bring it all back to you. AKA control what you can control. But with a little more of a poetic flair to it. Courtesy of S Club.


Ayesha King  58:26  
Thank you Oh,


Tom Campbell  58:27  
no longer performing at the Orpheum theatre because Been there done that so. Alright, well bring it all back to you. Have a great rest of your day. I said thank you so much again for your time and your expertise. And I'll see you on a future webinar law cough podcast who knows you might to come back around to


Ayesha King  58:43  
you so much.


Tom Campbell  58:45  
My pleasure. Thanks, as always friends for listening to yet another episode of the colleges guy podcast. So so glad to have you here and we hope this information has been valuable as you navigate the college admission process. As always, any of the resources exercises, or areas of guidance that we mentioned will be included in the show notes that you'll find on our website, college essay. guy.com/podcast All right, we'll see you on the next one. Um, the train will keep on rolling and you can keep on crying those lovely tears of joy. Thanks, y'all. Take care


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