Show Notes
In today’s episode, Ethan connects with Angel Pérez (CEO of the National Association of College Admission Counselors) to discuss identity, his personal journey with self-care, and where he sees the college admission profession heading.
On the episode, you’ll hear Angel and Ethan discuss:
Angel’s brainstorming work for his own imagined college essay (yes, really)
What Angel’s core values have to do with his self-care journey
Strategies and techniques Angel (and Ethan) use for self care
How does Angel see the US college landscape (and/or admissions process) changing in the next 5 years?
Fun fact: You’ll find the YouTube video version of this podcast on the College Essay Guy YouTube channel.
Check out last year’s conversation, CEG Podcast Episode 401: Self-care for counselors, leaders, and professionals in helping roles.
If you haven’t met Angel Pérez, he is CEO of the National Association for College Admission Counseling (NACAC). In this role, he represents more than 25,000 admission and counseling professionals worldwide committed to postsecondary access and success. Named by a Forbes article in 2019 as the most influential voice in college admissions, he strives to build an educational ecosystem that better represents today’s society. Prior to joining NACAC in July of 2020, Dr. Pérez served in secondary and higher education leadership positions across America, most recently, as Vice President for Enrollment and Student Success at Trinity College in Connecticut. He is an advocate for counselors everywhere, an important ally in the work of increasing access to higher education, and I’m so lucky to call him my friend…
Hope you enjoy this episode.
Play-by-Play
2:43 – Introductions and welcome
4:15 – Values Exercise
9:13 – Social Identities Exercise
11:47 – What life experiences have influenced Angel’s identities?
19:58 – How do Angel’s core values connect to identity?
22:46 – How has self-care for Angel and Ethan evolved since their conversation last year?
27:06 – What are Angel and Ethan still working on for self-care?
33:39 – Accountability, pausing, and intention in self-care
39:24 – How does Angel see the US college landscape (and/or admissions process) changing in the next 5 years?
44:14 – How has the ban on race-conscious admission impacted students?
46:07 – Advice for students
48:20 – Is college still worth the cost?
50:56 – Advice for counselors and admission professionals
53:23 – Closing thoughts
Resources
Counting Up vs. Counting Down by Duncan Sabien
Rocket Fuel by Mark C. Winters, Gino Wickman
CEG Podcast Episode 401: Self-care for counselors, leaders, and professionals in helping roles
CEG Podcast Episode 406: Why You Don’t Have to Write about Trauma in Your College Essay to Stand Out—and What You Can Do Instead
Show transcript
Ethan Sawyer 0:08
Hi friends. So I recently sat down with Angel Perez, who is the CEO of the National Association of College Admission Counseling, aka NACAC, and according to Forbes, the most influential voice in college admission. So over the last couple years, Angel and I have gotten pretty close and over text message or something, I said to him, hey, what if we did a revisit of the podcast that we did last year, which was on self care. In case you missed it, Angel wrote an op ed that kind of went viral in the college admission field on self care and burnout. And I thought, what if we did a one year later check in in our conversation? I also thought it'd be neat to get into some of the changes that have happened in the college admissions landscape, and to get his sense of where does he see things headed. But to start another thing I thought it might be fun to do, although maybe a little vulnerable, was to help you get to know Angel by brainstorming his college essay with me. And he was, I think, a little nervous at the start, and you can kind of see it in the video version, but I was so grateful for Angel's willingness to lean in and be vulnerable. I think it's part of what makes him an awesome leader. So we start in the past with a little bit of Angel's core values and why they're important to him. Then we shifted into talking about the present. How's he doing on his self care journey? What's working well? What does he feel like he still needs to work on and then we started to talk about the future. How does he see the US college landscape changing in the next five years? If you've never met angel, he represents more than 25,000 admission and counseling professionals as the CEO of NACAC, the aforementioned. He grew up in Puerto Rico in the South Bronx. Was the first in his family to graduate from college before he joined NACAC in 2020 he was a Vice President for Enrollment and Student Success at Trinity College. He's also been a faculty member at Trinity's Educational Studies Department in UCLA college counseling certification and at the Harvard grad school of education. He was elected the youngest Chair of diversity in the history of Skidmore College's Alumni Association. He's a frequent contributor to The Washington Post, NPR Forbes, the Atlantic, the Chronicle of Higher Education. He holds a BS from Skidmore College, an MA from Columbia University, a PhD from Claremont Graduate University, and a teaching certification in higher ed pedagogy from the Derek Bok Center for Teaching and Learning at Harvard University. I hope you enjoy this episode. I Hey, Angel, welcome to the podcast.
Angel Perez 2:45
So good to see you. It's good to be with you, to be here in person. In
Ethan Sawyer 2:49
person, we have our official fireside jet with our actual fire. We brought it in especially for
Angel Perez 2:54
you. I love it. It's cold in California right now. It's cold. Leave it friends. It's
Ethan Sawyer 2:59
cold. It was expensive, but it was worth it for this particular podcast. All right, so one of the things I thought would be fun is to brainstorm a personal statement.
Angel Perez 3:08
Okay, I'm nervous, yeah, and, you know, you know,
I haven't written one in a very long time. It's been a minute, yes, yeah, it's been a minute. Grad school.
Ethan Sawyer 3:17
Grad school, yeah, oh yeah, grad school. I forgot about that, but a personal statement time ago. So I the prep that we did for this, I gave you this values exercise, really, just like today, before we showed up. And what I thought we could do is we could delve into, I'm just going to kind of ask you some questions around this. And the sort of the prompt big picture that I'm wanting to plant for you is something like, if you were today from your current position in your working world, to answer the question in a page describe the world you come from and how it's shaped your dreams and aspirations, what would that look like? And the prompt that I'm using is the old university of california prompt later became an MIT prompt, but it's one that I really love, because I think it has the potential to get us turning inwardly and to sort of reflect. So I'm definitely not promising we're gonna have and you don't have homework after this unless you
Angel Perez 4:11
want. No, I feel like I'm back in school. You're making me nervous. Ethan, okay, so
Ethan Sawyer 4:16
I'd love to just hear so based on the values exercise, you started with 10, you went down to five, and then you landed on three. I'd love to hear a little bit about what are some of the top three values that you landed on. I think
Angel Perez 4:29
it was hard to choose top three, and I think it depends on where you are in your life, but right now, I chose health and fitness, meaningful work and trust as my top three.
Ethan Sawyer 4:42
Oh, juicy. So I'd love for you to just, if you I'm just double clicking on all three. So whichever one you feel like sharing about, I just love to hear more about your you know, your either journey with or your interest in that particular in your life right now. Yeah,
Angel Perez 4:55
I'll start with health and fitness. I just think it's, it's been something that I've been on a. Journey with for the past several years, and I'm realizing that without it, I'm off kilter. I'm off center, and so it has to be core to my everyday, I think also now, as I get older, and it's not just because of this particular job that I have, but that I see the importance of meaningful work, like work is the most time we spend outside of our homes, you know, without our families. And so to spend all that time and not find meaning and purpose and joy in it would be, I think, soul crushing before
Ethan Sawyer 5:37
we get to trust I want to ask for the first one. Let's talk health and fitness, like, when you think about health and fitness in your life, what does that look like? How does that manifest itself? Give me an image like, what does health and fitness look like? Yeah,
Angel Perez 5:50
for some reason when you say image, I think of like me doing a yoga pose, not because that's the only thing I do. I like to do a variety of different things, but because in a yoga studio, I tend to find stillness. It's much more than about the physical. It's also about the mental. And so for me, health and fitness is I think oftentimes people will think, oh, that's because you go and you work out at a gym. And for me, it's about holistic living, mental and physical. And is that something
Ethan Sawyer 6:13
that's always been important to you, or you mentioned a journey like, how has that gone for you?
Angel Perez 6:18
No, actually, I would say it's become more and more important. As I've aged, I was not the healthiest child or teenager. I will tell you that I did not have good modeling. But as I've aged, I've realized that that is that's just core to who I am. But I think you're always on a journey there, because you can fall off the wagon pretty quickly, or things take over. I know you and I have talked about this, that you struggle with it as well, so I've now put it at the top, because I think it feeds everything else in my life.
Ethan Sawyer 6:51
Yeah, great. I want to shift to meaningful work for a minute. So when you think about what meaningful work looks like, practically, when you're doing meaningful work, or when you're in that mode or in that zone, what's the image that comes up for you or
Angel Perez 7:05
for me? Meaningful work is when I am in flow. And so it means that I could keep going and going, and I don't even notice the time pass. And so I mean, I'm very fortunate that if you ask me for an image, I think about what I do on a day to day basis at NACAC, I feel like what I do is meaningful work, and so I picture myself. The first image that comes up is conference, even though we do a lot more than conference, but it's the culmination of our year, and it's where everybody comes together, and I get to see it's almost a physical manifestation of what we do. And so being at conference and opening the conference and looking out at 1000s of people who have come to this place to be refueled and to be educated and to connect on a human level with people, to me, I'm like, wow, this is really powerful. This is meaningful. Like, what
Ethan Sawyer 7:58
were some of the values that were important to you then that are still really important to you. I
Angel Perez 8:01
think it's I've always, even as a child, I always wanted to help other people. And so for me, you know, all of the work that I have done, even when I think back to, like, my high school age jobs, I didn't realize. I didn't connect the dots at the time, but it was I chose jobs that were in the service of other people, and I am certainly in a job now where I am in the service of other people. So I could have done that through law, but I found law dreadfully boring, and it's a perfectly wonderful career for other people, just not for me. Yeah.
Ethan Sawyer 8:36
What's your relationship to trusting? Is it easy for you to trust or does it take time for you to build it to warm up? Like what's your orientation towards?
Angel Perez 8:46
I often say that I trust deeply, unless it's proven otherwise, right? So I my inclination is to trust people. In fact, one of the values my leadership team and I we when we first came together, we talked about, what are the values that we will each uphold, and one of them is assume best intentions. And so we assume best intentions of each other, and I tend to lean in that direction, yeah.
Ethan Sawyer 9:13
So I'd love to pivot just a little bit to talk about another exercise that you worked on just briefly, and it's this identities one can
Angel Perez 9:20
I show Yes, because I want homework more on the College Essay Guy this one
Ethan Sawyer 9:24
here. So I want to talk about identities and then potentially make connections back to values. But I'd love for you to just scan this, and for those of you at home who are wondering, What the What the heck this says, this is an exercise that we'll link to it below the video, which is just thinking about what are different identities that have shaped you in particular ways? And so I'm curious, as you scan this list of different identities, if you had to say, these are some of the identities that have least shaped me, or like one identity that has shaped me least, what would you start with if you had to cross it off? You think it would have the lowest impact on you know, your life, who you are in this world.
Angel Perez 10:07
That's a hard one, because I think every single, every single thing on this list impacts you in one way, shape or form, but the one that comes to mind is physical appearance. Is probably, I don't think about it very often, even though I know that you know my physical appearance is how I carry myself in the world, right? But I would say, probably, of all the things on this list, that one I feel like hasn't impacted me as much. Yeah, I'd love
Ethan Sawyer 10:35
to know in terms of the identities that you've named here, is there an identity that you don't necessarily lead with, or when people are getting to know you, it's not something that you bring up, maybe in a first conversation, but as they get to know you, they get to understand just how much this particular identity has shaped you, has informed who you are.
Angel Perez 10:57
Yeah, again, I could, I could go with a lot of them, but I think I'll share this one because of where I currently am in my life. And so you asked about religion, and that's been an interesting trajectory in my life. Religion was a big part of my childhood, and then I left religion and I wrote down here, seeker. And that's not something I would like share with people off the street. I wouldn't be like, I'm a seeker. Tell you what that is, but it's that I don't identify with one particular faith, but I consider myself very spiritual and constantly seeking and looking for answers about life, like, what is this all about? What is this experience and journey that we're all on as humans? So I certainly would not lead with that, and I think that people need to get to know them when we get into those conversations, but now 1000s of people are watching it. So, you know, there goes that. So let
Ethan Sawyer 11:47
me ask a kind of heavy handed question, but it's like, in terms of the experiences in your life that have led you to becoming a seeker, like, what do you think have been the big influences that brought you to this point where you go? I guess I am a seeker now, yeah,
Angel Perez 12:00
I don't know anything. I feel like I'm on Oprah and you're about to make me cry, like I'm about to burst into tears. I think it's a lot of different things. One, I grew up in a Catholic family who then converted to Seventh Day Adventist. Like there's a lot of stuff there, thank goodness for therapy, but I think that certainly has had an impact on me. I've always been very curious about religion. Like, I actually think if I went back to college today, I would be a religion major. I just want to, like, dig deep into all the different faiths around the world, and why do people believe what they do and what inspires people. But I would say most recently, what has motivated me were two things. Was an episode with burnout, which you and I did a podcast about. But I will be honest, it was also becoming NACAC CEO, and it was because I arrived at this moment where, like, technically, you're, you're at the peak of your career, and if I'm 100% transparent with you, I thought, I thought it would feel better. And I think it was the if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Like you need few, fuel, food, shelter, all of that. And I had, sort of, like, arrived at this point where I felt great about a lot of aspects of my life, but I was still asking this bigger question about, like, what is this all about? And by the way, it happens to a lot of people, I think in your 40s. You know, some people call it midlife crisis. I called it a midlife awakening. I like that term better than crisis, but I think that's what helped me, like, lean in a little bit more, where I'm like, Oh, I actually want to connect to something deeper than just work. So, so I'm grateful it happened. But I would say, would it happen to me over the past several years? Yeah,
Ethan Sawyer 13:53
yeah. I love this. I'm thinking about, I also think about this identities exercises, like their identities that we've sort of left behind, and then there are identities that we're like, calling in, yes, and the ones that we're sort of leaning into. I'm curious if there's another one on there that you've either left behind, something that you're like, I don't really identify with this as much as I used to, or if there's an identity here that you like maybe felt edgy to write down, but you're like, yeah, no, that is an identity that I'm leaning I'll be, hey,
Angel Perez 14:20
I'm being vulnerable. So I'm just gonna keep going. I struggle. People ask me about my economic background, and you know, I've been very open about I was a low income, first generation kid, and that obviously has informed my college journey, what I'm passionate about. But I am no longer that I live a very privileged life and very grateful for it, but,
Ethan Sawyer 14:44
yeah, what's that like? What's that like to go through that transition? I
Angel Perez 14:47
mean, it's incredible only because and it's incredible, and I still struggle with it because I feel like I've lived in these two identities. But you know, I'm grateful that I live this life I could not. Have imagined for myself, and I have these incredible opportunities. I'm sitting in California with you today. You know, recording this podcast, there's so to me, the one that I probably struggle with is that class identity, because I know what it's like to have nothing, and I know what it's like to be well off and to not worry anymore. So living in those two spaces is really interesting. And by the way, between family and friends, I have people in my life across all of those spectrums, and so going back and forth between those identities is also interesting and challenging and rich in so many different ways.
Ethan Sawyer 15:42
Yeah, what I want to double click on that just for a second, I was like, what is that experience of being able to, you know, have the experience of having not grown up with money and now to have the experience of, like, having money and being financially, you know, solid, like, what do you feel like that affords you in in life, like, what, what perspectives? Or what do you what is that? What is
Angel Perez 16:04
that teaching you? Yeah, I mean, I think for so many of us, it affords a security, right? I mean, I think for so long, and by the way, again, it's not always perfect. I will tell you that one thing that I struggle with, and by the way, many of my friends who grew up low income and have really good careers and are financially stable now they still in the back of their minds, have this little thing that says it could go away tomorrow. And I certainly have that. And so it's not always one of those things where you switch on the light switch and it's like, okay, I'm no longer low income. When you have grown up and seen poverty and experienced that for so long, you start thinking about, what? What if I go back there? What if? What if I move backwards? What if I lose my job, right? And so you do think about that. And I'm curious,
Ethan Sawyer 16:51
how does that do you? How do you think that impacts your day to day, like your week to week, or your month to month, like that, either that fear or that just having that life experience. How does that influence your work?
Angel Perez 17:02
Yeah, well, I think it first of all, I'm grateful for my life experience. I wouldn't take anything back from the way I grew up, despite all the challenges. It just makes you such a deeply empathetic person. I mean, I will never forget a perfect example, when I worked at a college and there was a student who didn't get their reimbursement check, their financial aid reimbursement check, and someone in my financial aid office was quite dismissive about it, like, well, we'll get it to the student in a week. And I got emotional about it because I was like, You have no idea what it's like not to have $5 I said we're gonna get him the check today, and we made it happen, right? So I think it, it creates this deep level of empathy for me that, like, I know what that's like. And so again, I'm, I'm grateful for it, yeah, yeah. So
Ethan Sawyer 17:53
I wanted, like, track back what I'm hearing so far. So some of the main values that you talked about meaningful work as being a big one, another one that you didn't put in your top three, but I heard you talk about was this value of, like, helping others. You talked about trust a little bit. And then a big one for you is health and fitness. Some of the other things you mentioned, and you talked about how, in terms of identities, there was this identity of, like, growing up low income and having a relationship to that, and we haven't, obviously gone deep into that, but that that's been a that's impacted the way that you see the world, especially now being part of a different absolutely, you know, income, status, as it were, and the other identity. What was the other one? The other one? Oh, seeker, yes, that you're in this position now of seeking, and in part that was maybe in and so this is something that I'm if we had more time and we were to really go into this, I would be like, do you feel like the seeking part was sort of in concert with the way you've grown up, or in response to the way you've the way you grew up? But I imagine it's probably both, probably
Angel Perez 18:56
both, yeah. And depending on what stage of my life I was, yeah, yeah, yeah. But to be honest, I mentioned Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Not to be geeky, but I really do also realize that to a certain extent, my experience was that until I got other needs taken care of in my life, you know, that I felt secure in my career? You know, I had been climbing the academic ranks, and so I went and I got a master's, and then I got a PhD, like I was just so focused on other things that all of a sudden, again, you know, I become NACAC CEO. And the first inkling was I thought this was gonna feel better. And not that I didn't love it. I love my job, but I thought I was gonna feel some sort of like spiritual Aha. And it was like, what else is there out there, right? And so to a certain extent, I don't think I would have actually begun to seek had other parts of my life not felt complete, right? Yeah,
Ethan Sawyer 19:58
right, to have that freedom today. Able to do that? Yeah, so I'm curious, what is your working draft of what do you want to be when you grow up?
Angel Perez 20:06
Oh my gosh, I really struggle with that question. You know, I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up, but I do know that I want to live a well integrated, whole and joyful life in whatever form that comes, there goes that seeking again. I would not have responded that way three years ago. But, you know, I think oftentimes people, when they're asked that question, the immediate thing that comes is job, right, right? Like I want to be a lawyer when I grow up, or I want to get this. And I don't think about it that way anymore. I think about it more as you know, how do I want to live my life? What are the kinds of experiences I want to have? I'm now at the age, you know, I'm closer to 50 than I am to 40. And so I can see, like, around the corner, you know, I'll be retired in 20 years, right? And so, like, what do I want that to look like? That's really my draft is, like a, I'm not even in, like, the the first editing phase right now, I'm doing a word cloud. That's where I'm at.
Ethan Sawyer 21:11
And what do you sense has been, this is back to the values again. What do you sense is, because you know what I was talking about in terms of the first draft of the values is, like, things are important to you now, but as you sort of vision cast into the future, what do you predict are going to be the important values for you as you in sort of like, you know, as you grow, change, evolve, what values call out to you?
Angel Perez 21:34
Yeah, I think there's two. One is change in variety, and it's not new for me. I actually, even as a child, like I didn't like the same thing, I just want. I'm constantly seeking change, change of scenery, environment. I don't think I've lived in the same house for more than, like, five or six years, and so I think I will continue to seek that, because it's something that feeds me just change and variety. But the one that really sticks out is number one, in response to your question, is serenity? Yeah. More, yeah. I just am in a phase where I am looking for peace. What I would like for myself, not only this year, but moving forward is how do I find serenity and stillness so that I can function well in the world around me. And I wish that for everybody. Actually, I wish that for you. Yeah,
Ethan Sawyer 22:27
thanks for saying that. You don't have the homework assignment of going and writing a personal statement. But let me just worry. How are you feeling? Like, how is how is this going? How did this go for you? It
Angel Perez 22:40
went better now that I know that I don't have to write an essay. At the end of it, I'm like, okay, the
Ethan Sawyer 22:46
big theme of our podcast last time was self care, and so I want to pick up in some ways when we left off, but it's been almost a year, and I'd love to hear how things are going. And I want to offer a framework and side note to friends. This is something from my friend Duncan, who I will I'll link more on the show notes, but I want to talk about self care from the frame of like counting up in the sense of like from zero, what's going really well. And then I want to, and I'd love to get practical, as practical as we can with things that you feel like, practices that you're are now in place for you, that maybe weren't in place a year or two years ago, and then I'd love to hear, let's count down from perfection, like, what are you still working on? What do you still struggle with? So let's start with counting up. What's going well.
Angel Perez 23:32
What's going well? So I think the first thing I'll say is, like, I remain committed to just my physical health, so even when I'm on the road, I try to go to the gym or run or swim, yoga, things like that that I like to do, and it just frames my energy for the day. So it's going really well. The other thing that I would say is something I did last year, and I would definitely recommend to everyone out there is, get rid of all of your notifications. Yes, if you see me
Ethan Sawyer 24:06
once more, for the people in the back, I'm obsessed
Angel Perez 24:09
with things like this, my Apple watch. But what I noticed is it was constantly dinging, and particularly around news. I used to get news notifications, New York Times, LA Times, BBC, stop it. I never felt as I got those notifications like I was any more educated about what was happening in the world. So I've also just begun to limit the amount of news that I take in. I give myself like half an hour in the evening, and I get myself caught up, but turn off the notifications, and I think the anxiety has just dropped tremendously. And so that's one of the things I highly, highly recommend. And I would say I probably I've really been pretty good about sticking to my meditation. It's another thing that really I'm trying to get to two times a day. You know? Sometimes. Is really one, but at the same time, like it really just calms me. And I think again, given the state of the world right now, we can all use a little quiet time. And so I would say those three things are going really well. I
Ethan Sawyer 25:13
love it. The phone. One really resonates with me. And I want to say a thing that I've done in the last year is the breakup with your phone challenge. So I thought it was pretty good about my relationship with my phone. But Catherine price is an author who has, and we'll link to it in the show notes, a 30 day breakup with your phone challenge sends you a text, and it gives you, lets you take stock of, sort of, what's your relationship with your phone currently? And it has you go on a day long fast where you don't look at your phone at all, which would be pretty edgy. I think for many folks, it was edgy for me, yeah, but gosh, did I feel?
Angel Perez 25:45
Oh, I can imagine awesome. I'm gonna take that. I would also say even start small. I mean, one thing around my phone that also I've been really good about is that is not the first thing I pick up in the morning. Yes, I do not look at my phone. In the morning, I get up, I'm like, sipping my coffee. I go and I try to do some reading. But I used to immediately, actually, it was my iPad that I would immediately pick up and again, clicking through the news. What a terrible way to start your day. Exactly, you're ingesting negativity all day long. And so now I try to start with quiet reading as opposed to the phone. So maybe start there and then go to a whole day without your phone.
Ethan Sawyer 26:29
I love that. I mean, imagine if someone were to walk in in the morning and be like, rather than like, sort of like a, you know, a mother or father, like kissing you on the forehead instead just like, well, here's the day's news, and it's just anxiety. It's like a tiger jumping into your tent and, yeah,
Angel Perez 26:45
it's almost like, I call it guardrails. I've just learned what are the ways that I can protect myself around some of the things that we can't control in the outside world, right? And so oftentimes I can't control what happens the minute I get to work. It's like we're off to the races, but I can control my morning and how I start my day, so I try to protect that as much as I can. Yeah,
Ethan Sawyer 27:06
I think it would be easy for folks listening to think, well, great angels got it figured out. You know, Ethan, they're good at self care, so let's count down from perfection, like, what are some of the things that you feel like you just haven't been able to figure out or get a hold of or the areas where you're still maybe struggling.
Angel Perez 27:24
Number one, top of list. Highlight exclamation point is I have yet to take control of my schedule. I am still tremendously over scheduled. I am still struggling with saying no. And so for me, that that is the piece. You know, it's a goal, and I know it's never going to be perfect, but if I can admit to you, even Joseph, two weeks ago, I just sat in the middle of my office in the middle of the day and said to myself, how did this happen to me again? I said last year, I wasn't going to do this. I wasn't going to over commit. I wasn't going to have these 8am to 9pm days, and here I was again. So I still struggle with that, and there are good days and bad days, but I'm already ahead of where I was, which is, I'm so much more conscious about it, and I'm not just going with the flow. I'm trying to be much more intentional about how I manage my schedule. It's
Ethan Sawyer 28:18
reminding me of the learning framework that I learned in grad school, which is like, we start with unconscious incompetence, which is like, we don't know we're doing a thing wrong and we don't know how to do the thing. And then we move to conscious incompetence, which is like, I know now that I'm doing a thing wrong, or less ideally, we move to conscious competence, which is like, I know how to do the thing, and I know that I'm doing it well, and then ideally, we're moving to unconscious competence. So we're moving to a space where we're doing the thing well or differently, or more ideally, and we don't even know we're doing it. It's so interesting.
Angel Perez 28:52
That's how I think about therapy, because oftentimes people think that if you go to therapy, that all of a sudden your behavior is going to change, and it can begin changing over time, but what does change is your consciousness around it, right? You'll be in that moment and you'll say, Oh, I'm doing that again. Doesn't mean maybe you do something totally different, but the next step is going to be that consciousness raising. And so I always think about that in therapy,
Ethan Sawyer 29:20
yeah, I love what you're saying. And some of the, one of the things that the practices, that's helped me, that I want to share is, at the start of the year, I'll basically look at what are my primary, my big rocks, we call them. And this is a term from a book that I read. Well, it's in probably a lot of entrepreneurship books, but it's, it's, I found it in rocket fuel. But in terms of the big rocks, what are the main things I want to be focusing on, and how much of my energy do I want to be devoting to each of these? And essentially, what I what I do is I rewrite my job description at least once a year so that I go, all right. So for me, for example, to get really concrete, I want to spend 50% of my time doing what we're doing. Right now, recording, creating resources, YouTube videos, happy place for me, I want to spend 20% of my time what I call culture attending, or culture building. And that means, you know, essentially running team meetings, planning retreats, these kinds of things. So the reason I say this, and I don't need to get into like the whole deal, although I'm not going to link to in the show notes, but if folks are curious, they can ask me. But I feel like what's useful for me is like practically going, okay, given that I want to spend this much of my time and energy doing this, how does that map out into a given week or month? So for example, if I go, Okay, I look at my schedule, because there's the aspirational version, right, and then there's the like, the actual version, like the real deal. Look at the Google Calendar and be like, but how am I actually spending my time? And when I can do that in this sort of down season, quieter time, and, of course, creating time for the quieter time. But go, okay, when I'm like, in my imagined best self, ideal self, how can I make the best contribution to the world? And then I can just put that up against my calendar for the coming week or month and be like, you know, do these match up or not? Well, do they match up sort of, like, mostly, for the most part? Yeah, okay. And I would say it's like, I'm like 80% of the way there, but it points me to like, certain things that I can probably still, I'm still probably holding on to, yeah,
Angel Perez 31:17
that's a really cool exercise. I'm gonna take that and try to do it, although I will tell you, I'm nervous just thinking about it, because what I may find out is that I am very misaligned, just because of all the kind of I have so many different constituencies in this role. And so my time has to be spread in so many different ways. But one of the things this sort of reminds me that one of the things that I'm trying to get towards is how I dedicate my time to things that only I can uniquely do in the organization. So in terms of impact, you know, I have this rock star team, what are the things that they can do well, and what are the things that only really I can uniquely do? And so as I think about my schedule in the years ahead, I'm trying to get there. So I wonder if maybe layering that question on top of the exercise you're talking about that could be a good one. I love that. Yeah, one of the things I'm getting better at, and I talked about this publicly before, is I used to have a really hard time saying no, and now I say no a lot more I don't say no, enough, so I'd like to get there any advice. I'll take it, but I do. The question I ask myself is, by saying yes, what aspect of myself am I saying no to? And I actually, I'll share. I was recently invited to be a trustee at an institution, and I struggled with the decision for a while. Actually, it took me, like, three months to get back to the president, partly because I love the institution, and I think it would be a fascinating opportunity, but I finally sat with that question, like, what am I saying no to if I say yes to this? And what I realized was that's four weekends a year that I'm traveling, that I am not, you know, caring for myself, that I am not even just spending time at home, and so just really proud of myself, that I honored myself first with that decision and decided I'm not going to do that. I'm actually going to say no. And so I remind myself that I'm on a journey, and I have small wins along the way that empower me. It's like a muscle you are using. And I was like, Okay, if I did that, I might be able to say no to more things. So we'll see. We'll see.
Ethan Sawyer 33:39
One thing I've found, in terms of that, is like inviting people in on my team, in my family, to let them know that this is the project that I'm working on, this particular for example, saying no, yeah. Do you do that? Do you let people know when you're like, here are the things that I'm working on, for example, saying
Angel Perez 33:56
yes. And actually it's I'm very fortunate. I have this wonderful team at NACAC, I have a chief of staff, and I have an assistant who, you know, without those people in a large, complex organization, it's very difficult to stay organized. And actually, we sat down last year, and we actually sat down in January to look at my calendar for the entire year space some things out and almost predict, like, when will you be running out of steam? We need to put a pause in between there. But I've also been really transparent with them that I am working on the ability to say no, and so I would like for you to feel empowered, to remind me when I come to you and say, that would be great, I'm going to go do that, for them to say, Do you really want to do that? Are you sure you want to do that? We don't think that's a good idea. And so, you know, and it's, it's hard, I think sometimes for people to do that, because the idea is, if the CEO wants to do it, then we should just do it. But it's great. I mean, they have pushed back on me several times already where they say, Well, you can, but should you. So and So surrounding yourself. Not everyone's fortunate enough to have a team, but if you have a colleague in the counseling office, right, or if you have a fellow admission counselor who you know sits with you just again, continuously reminding you, I'm here, I'm your accountability partner,
Ethan Sawyer 35:17
and keeping an eye on that when it's hard for me to lose sight of that. For me, it's like, where I enter into this for the reason, part of why it's hard for me to say no is that I'm almost constantly caretaking Yes, and it's like, this is my role in this life. I decided at some point when I was however many years old, that I will help and take care of others and make sure that they're getting their needs met, because that's part of my job. And there are certainly some ways that we could be like that's great, and that served me. And then I also don't recognize when it's happening and it will just creep in. And I one of the things that's helped me this is with a recent conversation that I was having with one of my colleagues, is that there are certain things that we're on the long arc of. In other words, this one's gonna take some time? Yes, yes. Or, I guess I'm saying to you now, as we're talking about this, like, this caretaking thing is probably, for me, something that it's, it's, I'm on the long arc for and
Angel Perez 36:10
you have to celebrate the small wins. Like, I will say, going back to the story about the trustee opportunity, that that was a big win for me right on the journey, even though, during that process, I was also like, Why did my schedule become this again, I was beating myself up, but then I realized that had I not been on this self care journey, I would have probably said yes to that opportunity, and while I would have enjoyed it to a certain extent, again, I would be burned out. I would be giving time that I really don't have. So another thing that's helpful for me in the process, besides the accountability partners and surrounding myself, is always asking myself, before I say yes, what is my intention? What is my intention? Right? Because oftentimes we say yes, and the intention is, I don't want that person to be mad at me. Yeah, I don't want that person to be disappointed by me. And so I now pause, and I asked myself, like, what? Why am I saying yes to that thing? And sometimes it's ego. I've written about this so it's, it's not a I'm not telling tales out of school, but I taught a course at Harvard Graduate School of Education, and I was invited to teach again. And I paused, and I said, this was again in the self care journey. And I said, Why am I doing this? And I realized that it wasn't because I loved it or because I wanted to impart knowledge, right? It was this institutional affiliation which I found really interesting. And so many of us fall into those kinds of things, or like, oh, it would be nice to be affiliated, you know, with Harvard Graduate School of Education, a place that I love, by the way. But again, I asked myself, What am I saying no to if I say yes to that opportunity? And it was, again, a lot of time that I don't have. But two, it was, I don't think I'm doing this for the right reasons, you know, I think this is ego talking. It's not actual, you know, wanting to educate. And so I pulled out, and I said, No, I'm not going to do that anymore. So, you know, everybody has a version of this. And so, and we're it's hard because we're never gonna get it 100%
Ethan Sawyer 38:21
perfect. Totally. I'm so vibing with what you're saying on this. And my version of this, because, you know, I'm like, non violent communication super fan, is, like, what need can I be tapped into? Like, what is the need underneath this? Like, what need is this opportunity fulfilling for me, right? And is it a need for contribution, or is there something else, a need to be liked, a need to feel seen, or something like that. And I realized that I don't, I'm not able to feel into those things unless I have space right to fill into those things. And if my schedule, and it's happened for me this year a couple times too, where it's just I've had these crazy weeks, if I don't have space to, like, come back and like, actually feel my feelings, yeah, then it's not going to happen. You know, maybe we talked about this. My therapist at one point was like, Do you have unscheduled time? And I was like,
Angel Perez 39:07
what is that? Excuse me,
Ethan Sawyer 39:11
what do you mean? You know, kind of like, two blinks. And he was like, you know, times in your calendar where nothing is planned. And I was like, Well, why would I do that, right?
Angel Perez 39:19
You know, but life changing, because totally you do it now, right? I do it as well. I do it as well. So I
Ethan Sawyer 39:24
want to switch gears a little bit and talk a little bit about college admissions. Bigger Picture.
Angel Perez 39:30
Is something happening in college admissions,
Ethan Sawyer 39:34
ever and always? Yes, but I'm curious to hear from your perspective, based on what's happening in the world. Where do you see things headed in the next three to five years? In the college admissions landscape? What are some of the changes that you foresee?
Angel Perez 39:50
Well, I think the first thing that I will predict, and I am not a crystal ball guy, so I'll just preface it by saying that, but I think this constant change. Which is actually our new normal. I do think, gosh, there's a quote, and I wish I could fully remember it, but it's by Justin Trudeau, and I showed it to the board of directors at NAT act the other I
Ethan Sawyer 40:11
thought you were gonna say Justin Timberlake. And I was
Angel Perez 40:13
like, Yeah, I don't often quote Justin Timberlake, or Justin Trudeau, to be fair, but he talks about the speed of change these days, and the fact that this is actually the slowest it will ever be again. And, you know, just mind blowing, right? And I showed that to the board of directors at NACAC, just to remind them, like, this is the speed we are going to work out now, and we're constantly going to be accelerating. I do think there's a lot of changes in the next three to five years. One thing that I think we have no idea what this is going to look like in terms of impact is artificial intelligence. I think it is has probably already landed at our doorstep, and we're not necessarily fully understanding the beast ahead. It's going to impact everything from essays, as I say this, to the College Essay Guy. It's going to impact how colleges and universities are evaluating applications, access to information. So that's in even advising. I think it's going to be really interesting. I think the way students connect to colleges is also going to continue to evolve, and I know NACAC wants to play a role in that, through our college fairs and reinventing some of our programs, but this whole notion that you turn 16 years old and you take a PSAT and then colleges start connecting with you, I think that's going to evolve, and it probably should, right, And so I think that's going to be really different. And I also do think how we evaluate students over time is going to change. I think, you know, our values have shifted. I think the test optional movement is something that has really sort of had a huge impact on colleges and universities, but it's also kind of the the opening for what else have we been taking for granted in this process that maybe hasn't suited us well in the past? And so I know that's probably not the answer you were looking for, but the answer is, buckle up friends, because there's a lot more change coming. Yeah.
Ethan Sawyer 42:19
So how does that have you when you're talking to folks in the on your team or in the profession, how is that shifting the way that you're talking to folks like, what's becoming this kind of leading question? But what do you feel like is becoming more important for folks to do focus on like? So what do we do as a result of this? So what?
Angel Perez 42:36
Yeah, I think nimbleness is going to have to be our new normal on our team at NACAC, we always talk about meeting the moment, because the way it seems to work these days is news drops, and immediately our members are asking, what is NACAC doing about that? And so there is a nimbleness that we have to have, but also an ability to respond very quickly although thoughtfully, and I also think bringing people together like that's what I'm most passionate about right now. Because what I am disturbed by, to be 100% honest, is that as the challenges in the college admission counseling profession continue to rise, we're beating each other up and throwing the daggers at each other. That's not useful, and I so part of what I think about deeply is, how can I use this platform that I've been given? How can I use the work of the association to bring people together? So we're thinking about how we strategically use our conference, the kind of education and training we're doing the advocacy, but even how we make people feel when they arrive at our events, and we're thinking deeply about every single one of those things to try to bring the profession together, I feel like more and more we're dividing ourselves between K K 12 and higher ed, you know, higher ed blaming counselors and counselors blaming admission Officers and, you know, and and to a certain extent, we're all feeling an extraordinary amount of pressure around all of these changes, but if we don't join forces, it's not going to get any easier. And so for me, that's something that's just top of mind every day.
Ethan Sawyer 44:14
One thing that we've never really talked about is the ban on race conscious admission on how the impacts that that's had on colleges and where you see things headed,
Angel Perez 44:27
yeah, well, to be honest, we don't know exactly what the impact is yet, because we're in the first year, right? And I'm calling this the year of calibration, and trying to figure out, how are institutions going to do this differently? What's the impact going to be across the country, I will say that one of the impacts that I have seen in that many high school counselors have told me about, is the psychological impact that it's had on students. Say more about that? Well, the reality is the adults in the room, so the counselors and people who do this work like me and you, we were steeped in the. Work and we understood what the Supreme Court case was about, what what the implications were students just here on the news, race was taken away as a factor in college admission. Many students have interpreted that as colleges don't want me anymore.
Ethan Sawyer 45:17
Will you speak to those students like and disavow them. Yeah, well, well, I'm
Angel Perez 45:23
glad, because every opportunity I've had please, I have said there is nothing further from the truth. Colleges just want you now more than ever, and just because the Supreme Court took away, you know, the ability for college admission officers to use race and admission has not taken away the passion that colleges and universities have for a diverse class every single year. And so, you know, one of the, again, this is a role I think NACA can play, is we've been trying to create a movement around the country, through our members, through using the media all of these different facets to ensure that students know, you know, don't drop out of the process. You know, engage colleges want you now more than ever,
Ethan Sawyer 46:07
great. So I'd love to get practical for a second for college counselors, for students going through this process. What advice would you give to them in this new landscape?
Angel Perez 46:16
Yeah. You know, in some ways things are different, but in some ways, in terms of the college admissions process, things are exactly the same. You know, you do the work that you will as a high school student and you go through the application process. What may be a little bit different is that you may want to advocate for yourself or tell a deeper part of your own personal story, and particularly as it relates to your identity in your essay, for example, or maybe high school counselors might want to tell a little bit more about the lived experience of a student in the recommendation letter. But what I don't want students to feel, and I hope you're all hearing me closely, is that you don't have to tell a trauma story to get into college. I will tell you that while I've been very appreciative of the Biden Harris administration and how supportive they have been in ensuring that colleges and universities remain diverse, I will never forget that when the decision dropped, President Biden came out on the garden and he talked about students overcoming adversity and that we need to admit students who are challenged with adversity. And yes, I agree with him, but I don't want people to equate being a student of color with adversity. Not all students of color are facing adversity, and you don't have to tell a trauma story to get into college. And so the reason I say some things are different, but some things also stay the same, is really the advice that I'm giving students, is tell the story you want to tell. Don't feel pressured to tell a story about your lived experience or your identity or your race, if that is not what's in your heart and you want to share with an admissions office.
Ethan Sawyer 47:54
For those counselors and students who are listening to this and are like nodding along, counselors who are nodding along, we'll link in the show notes. There's past podcasts we did on literally, the title was why you don't have to write about trauma in your personal statement. And it gives like some other practical ideas, and, you know, brainstorming, how to actually help students get there, students, if you're listening, yeah, we've got practical resources on this, so we'll link to them in the show notes. Quick side note. Great. So one of the things we're hearing about, sort of in the media and oftentimes in the political landscape, is about the value of a college degree. Is college still worth it?
Angel Perez 48:31
Absolutely. But let me tell you, I get very emotional about this topic, so I'm going to try to be brief. One of the presentations I gave recently, I showed a data point, 56% this was a Wall Street Journal poll. 56% of their readers have said that college isn't worth it. Let's take that with a grain of salt, because the Wall Street Journal has amongst the most educated readership in the world. My guess is they wouldn't say that to their children. They're talking about other people's children. And so I think it's very dangerous the road that we're going down where we have politicians talking about you don't need to go to a four year college, you don't need an education, because that's not the advice they're giving to their own children. So I want to preface it by saying that, but all of the data still proves that going to college, one is the fastest way upward in socio economic mobility. But over time, over your lifetime, you are going to make so much more money if you actually go to college. And there's all this data about you live a healthier life. You're more civically engaged. But the other piece that I think is really important to note. And I talked a little bit about this because in I live in DC, and right next door to me, in Maryland, the governor has removed certain requirements, actually college requirements, for entry level jobs in the state, which is great. It's a great entry point. However, you will hit a glass ceiling pretty quickly. If you don't get a degree. And so I think that's what I want people to know and to understand, that yes, you might get an entry level job, but if you really aspire to moving up in the profession, at some point, you will hit a ceiling if you don't get the degree. So college is still very much worth it. Don't let others fool you into believing otherwise.
Ethan Sawyer 50:19
As you look ahead, do you find yourself when you think about the college admission landscape? Do you find yourself mostly optimistic or pessimistic?
Angel Perez 50:28
I am an optimist by nature, and I wouldn't do this work if I wasn't optimistic. I think we are in a period of extraordinary change, and I do think what's on the other side is probably really exciting, but we're on in the messy, murky, painful period of change, but that other side is going to be a new college admission process and a new college admission journey, but we have to get through this messy period first.
Ethan Sawyer 50:56
So as we wrap here, I'm curious, what would you like to say, if you were speaking to, let's say, 1000s and 1000s of counselors, as you often do, what advice would you give folks as they're thinking about navigating this uncertainty and a rapidly changing world? Well,
Angel Perez 51:11
I would say to high school counselors, one, I understand the frustration, but at the same time, I also just want to share gratitude, because what they do changes people's lives. I mean, I am here talking to you today because a high school counselor at my public school tapped me on the shoulder and said, Young man, have you ever thought about going to college? And she had 600 kids in her caseload, and I was a low income kid who had no idea what college was about, right? And so regardless of the challenges that we have in this profession, the work is so critically important to the future of young people, and, by the way, to the future of a nation in our world, and so sticking with it and being patient with us. And also, I would say this to both sides, not just school counselors, but also higher education professionals, having grace for each other. This goes back to what I was talking about, that I think in times of intensity, our inclination to throw daggers and beat each other up continues to grow, and there's no value in that. We're not getting anywhere with it, and so showing each other some grace in this really messy period, I have the privilege of being on the ground with members all over the country and the world, and I can really confidently say most people are just doing the best they can under really difficult circumstances. Yeah, and for college admission officers, I want to also just extend my deepest empathy. I think it is a really hard job, while I, by the way, still think it is the best job you can have because I did it for over 20 years. I also know how much more complicated it is these days to bring in a first year class and the extraordinary pressures that they are feeling that are mostly external. And so what I would like to say, just like school counselors, your work is so critical. You are changing the lives of 1000s of people, and I really want people to stick with it. I worry about the fact that there's so much turnover in college admission and that people aren't staying and wanting to move up the ranks, and institutions need a lot of support, and so that's one area I know that I'm focusing on at NACAC, but stick with it. You are changing lives.
Ethan Sawyer 53:23
So I want to end here on the personal, and I want to ask you, let's say we do this again in a year. I don't know if we'll record another podcast in a year, but what if
Angel Perez 53:32
you bring the fireplace?
Ethan Sawyer 53:36
What a year from now, what's shifted in your life? What's different a year from now,
Angel Perez 53:42
on a personal note. On a personal note, yeah, I would like to say to you, when we open up the self care conversation that I have gotten much better at the management of my schedule and at saying no, that I have continued to evolve in that direction. I know it's not going to be perfect, but I want it to be much better than it is right now. Lovely. How about you? I'm curious. For me,
Ethan Sawyer 54:06
I would love to be able to say that I am. I've had this sort of in the back of my mind, like, this athlete identity that I left behind in high school, and I've been sort of, like, wanting to, like, summon that. And so I'd love to be able to say to you a year from now, I'm, like, sitting up straight as I say, that I have, like, tapped back into that athlete identity, and that on a regular basis I'm doing cardio, and that I do, I'm doing something a little bit each day as it relates to calisthenics or strength training. So it's, like, very practical in the weeds. I'd love to be like, Yeah, I've been able to, like, sort of summon that athlete identity, and it I'll be 44 by then. I'd love to say at 44 like, I'm in the best shape that I've been in, let's say 10 years, because I think that's really when things sort of fell off for me. So
Angel Perez 54:47
if I text you as an accountability partner, like, every couple months about this, like, how's it going? Would that stress you out? No, that
would excite I would welcome that. Okay, I'm gonna do it.
Ethan Sawyer 55:01
Thanks friends for listening. You'll find all the show notes as ever at college. Sa guy.com/podcast Hey, fun fact, this episode is kind of a preview of what's to come on the podcast. Up next, I'll be sharing a three part series on mental health disclosures in the college application process, and then we'll do a series on storytelling and identity. And for those of you who know that I studied screenwriting, this is a little bit of a returning to my roots moment, but I'll be interviewing some of my screenwriter friends to talk about how their unique identities inform their writing. And yes, you've seen some of their movies and TV shows. Stay tuned and stay curious. You
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show transcript
Ethan Sawyer 0:08 Hi friends. So I recently sat down with Angel Perez, who is the CEO of the National Association of College Admission Counseling, aka NACAC, and according to Forbes, the most influential voice in college admission. So over the last couple years, Angel and I have gotten pretty close and over text message or something, I said to him, hey, what if we did a revisit of the podcast that we did last year, which was on self care. In case you missed it, Angel wrote an op ed that kind of went viral in the college admission field on self care and burnout. And I thought, what if we did a one year later check in in our conversation? I also thought it'd be neat to get into some of the changes that have happened in the college admissions landscape, and to get his sense of where does he see things headed. But to start another thing I thought it might be fun to do, although maybe a little vulnerable, was to help you get to know Angel by brainstorming his college essay with me. And he was, I think, a little nervous at the start, and you can kind of see it in the video version, but I was so grateful for Angel's willingness to lean in and be vulnerable. I think it's part of what makes him an awesome leader. So we start in the past with a little bit of Angel's core values and why they're important to him. Then we shifted into talking about the present. How's he doing on his self care journey? What's working well? What does he feel like he still needs to work on and then we started to talk about the future. How does he see the US college landscape changing in the next five years? If you've never met angel, he represents more than 25,000 admission and counseling professionals as the CEO of NACAC, the aforementioned. He grew up in Puerto Rico in the South Bronx. Was the first in his family to graduate from college before he joined NACAC in 2020 he was a Vice President for Enrollment and Student Success at Trinity College. He's also been a faculty member at Trinity's Educational Studies Department in UCLA college counseling certification and at the Harvard grad school of education. He was elected the youngest Chair of diversity in the history of Skidmore College's Alumni Association. He's a frequent contributor to The Washington Post, NPR Forbes, the Atlantic, the Chronicle of Higher Education. He holds a BS from Skidmore College, an MA from Columbia University, a PhD from Claremont Graduate University, and a teaching certification in higher ed pedagogy from the Derek Bok Center for Teaching and Learning at Harvard University. I hope you enjoy this episode. I Hey, Angel, welcome to the podcast. Angel Perez 2:45 So good to see you. It's good to be with you, to be here in person. In Ethan Sawyer 2:49 person, we have our official fireside jet with our actual fire. We brought it in especially for Angel Perez 2:54 you. I love it. It's cold in California right now. It's cold. Leave it friends. It's Ethan Sawyer 2:59 cold. It was expensive, but it was worth it for this particular podcast. All right, so one of the things I thought would be fun is to brainstorm a personal statement. Angel Perez 3:08 Okay, I'm nervous, yeah, and, you know, you know, I haven't written one in a very long time. It's been a minute, yes, yeah, it's been a minute. Grad school. Ethan Sawyer 3:17 Grad school, yeah, oh yeah, grad school. I forgot about that, but a personal statement time ago. So I the prep that we did for this, I gave you this values exercise, really, just like today, before we showed up. And what I thought we could do is we could delve into, I'm just going to kind of ask you some questions around this. And the sort of the prompt big picture that I'm wanting to plant for you is something like, if you were today from your current position in your working world, to answer the question in a page describe the world you come from and how it's shaped your dreams and aspirations, what would that look like? And the prompt that I'm using is the old university of california prompt later became an MIT prompt, but it's one that I really love, because I think it has the potential to get us turning inwardly and to sort of reflect. So I'm definitely not promising we're gonna have and you don't have homework after this unless you Angel Perez 4:11 want. No, I feel like I'm back in school. You're making me nervous. Ethan, okay, so Ethan Sawyer 4:16 I'd love to just hear so based on the values exercise, you started with 10, you went down to five, and then you landed on three. I'd love to hear a little bit about what are some of the top three values that you landed on. I think Angel Perez 4:29 it was hard to choose top three, and I think it depends on where you are in your life, but right now, I chose health and fitness, meaningful work and trust as my top three. Ethan Sawyer 4:42 Oh, juicy. So I'd love for you to just, if you I'm just double clicking on all three. So whichever one you feel like sharing about, I just love to hear more about your you know, your either journey with or your interest in that particular in your life right now. Yeah, Angel Perez 4:55 I'll start with health and fitness. I just think it's, it's been something that I've been on a. Journey with for the past several years, and I'm realizing that without it, I'm off kilter. I'm off center, and so it has to be core to my everyday, I think also now, as I get older, and it's not just because of this particular job that I have, but that I see the importance of meaningful work, like work is the most time we spend outside of our homes, you know, without our families. And so to spend all that time and not find meaning and purpose and joy in it would be, I think, soul crushing before Ethan Sawyer 5:37 we get to trust I want to ask for the first one. Let's talk health and fitness, like, when you think about health and fitness in your life, what does that look like? How does that manifest itself? Give me an image like, what does health and fitness look like? Yeah, Angel Perez 5:50 for some reason when you say image, I think of like me doing a yoga pose, not because that's the only thing I do. I like to do a variety of different things, but because in a yoga studio, I tend to find stillness. It's much more than about the physical. It's also about the mental. And so for me, health and fitness is I think oftentimes people will think, oh, that's because you go and you work out at a gym. And for me, it's about holistic living, mental and physical. And is that something Ethan Sawyer 6:13 that's always been important to you, or you mentioned a journey like, how has that gone for you? Angel Perez 6:18 No, actually, I would say it's become more and more important. As I've aged, I was not the healthiest child or teenager. I will tell you that I did not have good modeling. But as I've aged, I've realized that that is that's just core to who I am. But I think you're always on a journey there, because you can fall off the wagon pretty quickly, or things take over. I know you and I have talked about this, that you struggle with it as well, so I've now put it at the top, because I think it feeds everything else in my life. Ethan Sawyer 6:51 Yeah, great. I want to shift to meaningful work for a minute. So when you think about what meaningful work looks like, practically, when you're doing meaningful work, or when you're in that mode or in that zone, what's the image that comes up for you or Angel Perez 7:05 for me? Meaningful work is when I am in flow. And so it means that I could keep going and going, and I don't even notice the time pass. And so I mean, I'm very fortunate that if you ask me for an image, I think about what I do on a day to day basis at NACAC, I feel like what I do is meaningful work, and so I picture myself. The first image that comes up is conference, even though we do a lot more than conference, but it's the culmination of our year, and it's where everybody comes together, and I get to see it's almost a physical manifestation of what we do. And so being at conference and opening the conference and looking out at 1000s of people who have come to this place to be refueled and to be educated and to connect on a human level with people, to me, I'm like, wow, this is really powerful. This is meaningful. Like, what Ethan Sawyer 7:58 were some of the values that were important to you then that are still really important to you. I Angel Perez 8:01 think it's I've always, even as a child, I always wanted to help other people. And so for me, you know, all of the work that I have done, even when I think back to, like, my high school age jobs, I didn't realize. I didn't connect the dots at the time, but it was I chose jobs that were in the service of other people, and I am certainly in a job now where I am in the service of other people. So I could have done that through law, but I found law dreadfully boring, and it's a perfectly wonderful career for other people, just not for me. Yeah. Ethan Sawyer 8:36 What's your relationship to trusting? Is it easy for you to trust or does it take time for you to build it to warm up? Like what's your orientation towards? Angel Perez 8:46 I often say that I trust deeply, unless it's proven otherwise, right? So I my inclination is to trust people. In fact, one of the values my leadership team and I we when we first came together, we talked about, what are the values that we will each uphold, and one of them is assume best intentions. And so we assume best intentions of each other, and I tend to lean in that direction, yeah. Ethan Sawyer 9:13 So I'd love to pivot just a little bit to talk about another exercise that you worked on just briefly, and it's this identities one can Angel Perez 9:20 I show Yes, because I want homework more on the College Essay Guy this one Ethan Sawyer 9:24 here. So I want to talk about identities and then potentially make connections back to values. But I'd love for you to just scan this, and for those of you at home who are wondering, What the What the heck this says, this is an exercise that we'll link to it below the video, which is just thinking about what are different identities that have shaped you in particular ways? And so I'm curious, as you scan this list of different identities, if you had to say, these are some of the identities that have least shaped me, or like one identity that has shaped me least, what would you start with if you had to cross it off? You think it would have the lowest impact on you know, your life, who you are in this world. Angel Perez 10:07 That's a hard one, because I think every single, every single thing on this list impacts you in one way, shape or form, but the one that comes to mind is physical appearance. Is probably, I don't think about it very often, even though I know that you know my physical appearance is how I carry myself in the world, right? But I would say, probably, of all the things on this list, that one I feel like hasn't impacted me as much. Yeah, I'd love Ethan Sawyer 10:35 to know in terms of the identities that you've named here, is there an identity that you don't necessarily lead with, or when people are getting to know you, it's not something that you bring up, maybe in a first conversation, but as they get to know you, they get to understand just how much this particular identity has shaped you, has informed who you are. Angel Perez 10:57 Yeah, again, I could, I could go with a lot of them, but I think I'll share this one because of where I currently am in my life. And so you asked about religion, and that's been an interesting trajectory in my life. Religion was a big part of my childhood, and then I left religion and I wrote down here, seeker. And that's not something I would like share with people off the street. I wouldn't be like, I'm a seeker. Tell you what that is, but it's that I don't identify with one particular faith, but I consider myself very spiritual and constantly seeking and looking for answers about life, like, what is this all about? What is this experience and journey that we're all on as humans? So I certainly would not lead with that, and I think that people need to get to know them when we get into those conversations, but now 1000s of people are watching it. So, you know, there goes that. So let Ethan Sawyer 11:47 me ask a kind of heavy handed question, but it's like, in terms of the experiences in your life that have led you to becoming a seeker, like, what do you think have been the big influences that brought you to this point where you go? I guess I am a seeker now, yeah, Angel Perez 12:00 I don't know anything. I feel like I'm on Oprah and you're about to make me cry, like I'm about to burst into tears. I think it's a lot of different things. One, I grew up in a Catholic family who then converted to Seventh Day Adventist. Like there's a lot of stuff there, thank goodness for therapy, but I think that certainly has had an impact on me. I've always been very curious about religion. Like, I actually think if I went back to college today, I would be a religion major. I just want to, like, dig deep into all the different faiths around the world, and why do people believe what they do and what inspires people. But I would say most recently, what has motivated me were two things. Was an episode with burnout, which you and I did a podcast about. But I will be honest, it was also becoming NACAC CEO, and it was because I arrived at this moment where, like, technically, you're, you're at the peak of your career, and if I'm 100% transparent with you, I thought, I thought it would feel better. And I think it was the if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Like you need few, fuel, food, shelter, all of that. And I had, sort of, like, arrived at this point where I felt great about a lot of aspects of my life, but I was still asking this bigger question about, like, what is this all about? And by the way, it happens to a lot of people, I think in your 40s. You know, some people call it midlife crisis. I called it a midlife awakening. I like that term better than crisis, but I think that's what helped me, like, lean in a little bit more, where I'm like, Oh, I actually want to connect to something deeper than just work. So, so I'm grateful it happened. But I would say, would it happen to me over the past several years? Yeah, Ethan Sawyer 13:53 yeah. I love this. I'm thinking about, I also think about this identities exercises, like their identities that we've sort of left behind, and then there are identities that we're like, calling in, yes, and the ones that we're sort of leaning into. I'm curious if there's another one on there that you've either left behind, something that you're like, I don't really identify with this as much as I used to, or if there's an identity here that you like maybe felt edgy to write down, but you're like, yeah, no, that is an identity that I'm leaning I'll be, hey, Angel Perez 14:20 I'm being vulnerable. So I'm just gonna keep going. I struggle. People ask me about my economic background, and you know, I've been very open about I was a low income, first generation kid, and that obviously has informed my college journey, what I'm passionate about. But I am no longer that I live a very privileged life and very grateful for it, but, Ethan Sawyer 14:44 yeah, what's that like? What's that like to go through that transition? I Angel Perez 14:47 mean, it's incredible only because and it's incredible, and I still struggle with it because I feel like I've lived in these two identities. But you know, I'm grateful that I live this life I could not. Have imagined for myself, and I have these incredible opportunities. I'm sitting in California with you today. You know, recording this podcast, there's so to me, the one that I probably struggle with is that class identity, because I know what it's like to have nothing, and I know what it's like to be well off and to not worry anymore. So living in those two spaces is really interesting. And by the way, between family and friends, I have people in my life across all of those spectrums, and so going back and forth between those identities is also interesting and challenging and rich in so many different ways. Ethan Sawyer 15:42 Yeah, what I want to double click on that just for a second, I was like, what is that experience of being able to, you know, have the experience of having not grown up with money and now to have the experience of, like, having money and being financially, you know, solid, like, what do you feel like that affords you in in life, like, what, what perspectives? Or what do you what is that? What is Angel Perez 16:04 that teaching you? Yeah, I mean, I think for so many of us, it affords a security, right? I mean, I think for so long, and by the way, again, it's not always perfect. I will tell you that one thing that I struggle with, and by the way, many of my friends who grew up low income and have really good careers and are financially stable now they still in the back of their minds, have this little thing that says it could go away tomorrow. And I certainly have that. And so it's not always one of those things where you switch on the light switch and it's like, okay, I'm no longer low income. When you have grown up and seen poverty and experienced that for so long, you start thinking about, what? What if I go back there? What if? What if I move backwards? What if I lose my job, right? And so you do think about that. And I'm curious, Ethan Sawyer 16:51 how does that do you? How do you think that impacts your day to day, like your week to week, or your month to month, like that, either that fear or that just having that life experience. How does that influence your work? Angel Perez 17:02 Yeah, well, I think it first of all, I'm grateful for my life experience. I wouldn't take anything back from the way I grew up, despite all the challenges. It just makes you such a deeply empathetic person. I mean, I will never forget a perfect example, when I worked at a college and there was a student who didn't get their reimbursement check, their financial aid reimbursement check, and someone in my financial aid office was quite dismissive about it, like, well, we'll get it to the student in a week. And I got emotional about it because I was like, You have no idea what it's like not to have $5 I said we're gonna get him the check today, and we made it happen, right? So I think it, it creates this deep level of empathy for me that, like, I know what that's like. And so again, I'm, I'm grateful for it, yeah, yeah. So Ethan Sawyer 17:53 I wanted, like, track back what I'm hearing so far. So some of the main values that you talked about meaningful work as being a big one, another one that you didn't put in your top three, but I heard you talk about was this value of, like, helping others. You talked about trust a little bit. And then a big one for you is health and fitness. Some of the other things you mentioned, and you talked about how, in terms of identities, there was this identity of, like, growing up low income and having a relationship to that, and we haven't, obviously gone deep into that, but that that's been a that's impacted the way that you see the world, especially now being part of a different absolutely, you know, income, status, as it were, and the other identity. What was the other one? The other one? Oh, seeker, yes, that you're in this position now of seeking, and in part that was maybe in and so this is something that I'm if we had more time and we were to really go into this, I would be like, do you feel like the seeking part was sort of in concert with the way you've grown up, or in response to the way you've the way you grew up? But I imagine it's probably both, probably Angel Perez 18:56 both, yeah. And depending on what stage of my life I was, yeah, yeah, yeah. But to be honest, I mentioned Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Not to be geeky, but I really do also realize that to a certain extent, my experience was that until I got other needs taken care of in my life, you know, that I felt secure in my career? You know, I had been climbing the academic ranks, and so I went and I got a master's, and then I got a PhD, like I was just so focused on other things that all of a sudden, again, you know, I become NACAC CEO. And the first inkling was I thought this was gonna feel better. And not that I didn't love it. I love my job, but I thought I was gonna feel some sort of like spiritual Aha. And it was like, what else is there out there, right? And so to a certain extent, I don't think I would have actually begun to seek had other parts of my life not felt complete, right? Yeah, Ethan Sawyer 19:58 right, to have that freedom today. Able to do that? Yeah, so I'm curious, what is your working draft of what do you want to be when you grow up? Angel Perez 20:06 Oh my gosh, I really struggle with that question. You know, I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up, but I do know that I want to live a well integrated, whole and joyful life in whatever form that comes, there goes that seeking again. I would not have responded that way three years ago. But, you know, I think oftentimes people, when they're asked that question, the immediate thing that comes is job, right, right? Like I want to be a lawyer when I grow up, or I want to get this. And I don't think about it that way anymore. I think about it more as you know, how do I want to live my life? What are the kinds of experiences I want to have? I'm now at the age, you know, I'm closer to 50 than I am to 40. And so I can see, like, around the corner, you know, I'll be retired in 20 years, right? And so, like, what do I want that to look like? That's really my draft is, like a, I'm not even in, like, the the first editing phase right now, I'm doing a word cloud. That's where I'm at. Ethan Sawyer 21:11 And what do you sense has been, this is back to the values again. What do you sense is, because you know what I was talking about in terms of the first draft of the values is, like, things are important to you now, but as you sort of vision cast into the future, what do you predict are going to be the important values for you as you in sort of like, you know, as you grow, change, evolve, what values call out to you? Angel Perez 21:34 Yeah, I think there's two. One is change in variety, and it's not new for me. I actually, even as a child, like I didn't like the same thing, I just want. I'm constantly seeking change, change of scenery, environment. I don't think I've lived in the same house for more than, like, five or six years, and so I think I will continue to seek that, because it's something that feeds me just change and variety. But the one that really sticks out is number one, in response to your question, is serenity? Yeah. More, yeah. I just am in a phase where I am looking for peace. What I would like for myself, not only this year, but moving forward is how do I find serenity and stillness so that I can function well in the world around me. And I wish that for everybody. Actually, I wish that for you. Yeah, Ethan Sawyer 22:27 thanks for saying that. You don't have the homework assignment of going and writing a personal statement. But let me just worry. How are you feeling? Like, how is how is this going? How did this go for you? It Angel Perez 22:40 went better now that I know that I don't have to write an essay. At the end of it, I'm like, okay, the Ethan Sawyer 22:46 big theme of our podcast last time was self care, and so I want to pick up in some ways when we left off, but it's been almost a year, and I'd love to hear how things are going. And I want to offer a framework and side note to friends. This is something from my friend Duncan, who I will I'll link more on the show notes, but I want to talk about self care from the frame of like counting up in the sense of like from zero, what's going really well. And then I want to, and I'd love to get practical, as practical as we can with things that you feel like, practices that you're are now in place for you, that maybe weren't in place a year or two years ago, and then I'd love to hear, let's count down from perfection, like, what are you still working on? What do you still struggle with? So let's start with counting up. What's going well. Angel Perez 23:32 What's going well? So I think the first thing I'll say is, like, I remain committed to just my physical health, so even when I'm on the road, I try to go to the gym or run or swim, yoga, things like that that I like to do, and it just frames my energy for the day. So it's going really well. The other thing that I would say is something I did last year, and I would definitely recommend to everyone out there is, get rid of all of your notifications. Yes, if you see me Ethan Sawyer 24:06 once more, for the people in the back, I'm obsessed Angel Perez 24:09 with things like this, my Apple watch. But what I noticed is it was constantly dinging, and particularly around news. I used to get news notifications, New York Times, LA Times, BBC, stop it. I never felt as I got those notifications like I was any more educated about what was happening in the world. So I've also just begun to limit the amount of news that I take in. I give myself like half an hour in the evening, and I get myself caught up, but turn off the notifications, and I think the anxiety has just dropped tremendously. And so that's one of the things I highly, highly recommend. And I would say I probably I've really been pretty good about sticking to my meditation. It's another thing that really I'm trying to get to two times a day. You know? Sometimes. Is really one, but at the same time, like it really just calms me. And I think again, given the state of the world right now, we can all use a little quiet time. And so I would say those three things are going really well. I Ethan Sawyer 25:13 love it. The phone. One really resonates with me. And I want to say a thing that I've done in the last year is the breakup with your phone challenge. So I thought it was pretty good about my relationship with my phone. But Catherine price is an author who has, and we'll link to it in the show notes, a 30 day breakup with your phone challenge sends you a text, and it gives you, lets you take stock of, sort of, what's your relationship with your phone currently? And it has you go on a day long fast where you don't look at your phone at all, which would be pretty edgy. I think for many folks, it was edgy for me, yeah, but gosh, did I feel? Angel Perez 25:45 Oh, I can imagine awesome. I'm gonna take that. I would also say even start small. I mean, one thing around my phone that also I've been really good about is that is not the first thing I pick up in the morning. Yes, I do not look at my phone. In the morning, I get up, I'm like, sipping my coffee. I go and I try to do some reading. But I used to immediately, actually, it was my iPad that I would immediately pick up and again, clicking through the news. What a terrible way to start your day. Exactly, you're ingesting negativity all day long. And so now I try to start with quiet reading as opposed to the phone. So maybe start there and then go to a whole day without your phone. Ethan Sawyer 26:29 I love that. I mean, imagine if someone were to walk in in the morning and be like, rather than like, sort of like a, you know, a mother or father, like kissing you on the forehead instead just like, well, here's the day's news, and it's just anxiety. It's like a tiger jumping into your tent and, yeah, Angel Perez 26:45 it's almost like, I call it guardrails. I've just learned what are the ways that I can protect myself around some of the things that we can't control in the outside world, right? And so oftentimes I can't control what happens the minute I get to work. It's like we're off to the races, but I can control my morning and how I start my day, so I try to protect that as much as I can. Yeah, Ethan Sawyer 27:06 I think it would be easy for folks listening to think, well, great angels got it figured out. You know, Ethan, they're good at self care, so let's count down from perfection, like, what are some of the things that you feel like you just haven't been able to figure out or get a hold of or the areas where you're still maybe struggling. Angel Perez 27:24 Number one, top of list. Highlight exclamation point is I have yet to take control of my schedule. I am still tremendously over scheduled. I am still struggling with saying no. And so for me, that that is the piece. You know, it's a goal, and I know it's never going to be perfect, but if I can admit to you, even Joseph, two weeks ago, I just sat in the middle of my office in the middle of the day and said to myself, how did this happen to me again? I said last year, I wasn't going to do this. I wasn't going to over commit. I wasn't going to have these 8am to 9pm days, and here I was again. So I still struggle with that, and there are good days and bad days, but I'm already ahead of where I was, which is, I'm so much more conscious about it, and I'm not just going with the flow. I'm trying to be much more intentional about how I manage my schedule. It's Ethan Sawyer 28:18 reminding me of the learning framework that I learned in grad school, which is like, we start with unconscious incompetence, which is like, we don't know we're doing a thing wrong and we don't know how to do the thing. And then we move to conscious incompetence, which is like, I know now that I'm doing a thing wrong, or less ideally, we move to conscious competence, which is like, I know how to do the thing, and I know that I'm doing it well, and then ideally, we're moving to unconscious competence. So we're moving to a space where we're doing the thing well or differently, or more ideally, and we don't even know we're doing it. It's so interesting. Angel Perez 28:52 That's how I think about therapy, because oftentimes people think that if you go to therapy, that all of a sudden your behavior is going to change, and it can begin changing over time, but what does change is your consciousness around it, right? You'll be in that moment and you'll say, Oh, I'm doing that again. Doesn't mean maybe you do something totally different, but the next step is going to be that consciousness raising. And so I always think about that in therapy, Ethan Sawyer 29:20 yeah, I love what you're saying. And some of the, one of the things that the practices, that's helped me, that I want to share is, at the start of the year, I'll basically look at what are my primary, my big rocks, we call them. And this is a term from a book that I read. Well, it's in probably a lot of entrepreneurship books, but it's, it's, I found it in rocket fuel. But in terms of the big rocks, what are the main things I want to be focusing on, and how much of my energy do I want to be devoting to each of these? And essentially, what I what I do is I rewrite my job description at least once a year so that I go, all right. So for me, for example, to get really concrete, I want to spend 50% of my time doing what we're doing. Right now, recording, creating resources, YouTube videos, happy place for me, I want to spend 20% of my time what I call culture attending, or culture building. And that means, you know, essentially running team meetings, planning retreats, these kinds of things. So the reason I say this, and I don't need to get into like the whole deal, although I'm not going to link to in the show notes, but if folks are curious, they can ask me. But I feel like what's useful for me is like practically going, okay, given that I want to spend this much of my time and energy doing this, how does that map out into a given week or month? So for example, if I go, Okay, I look at my schedule, because there's the aspirational version, right, and then there's the like, the actual version, like the real deal. Look at the Google Calendar and be like, but how am I actually spending my time? And when I can do that in this sort of down season, quieter time, and, of course, creating time for the quieter time. But go, okay, when I'm like, in my imagined best self, ideal self, how can I make the best contribution to the world? And then I can just put that up against my calendar for the coming week or month and be like, you know, do these match up or not? Well, do they match up sort of, like, mostly, for the most part? Yeah, okay. And I would say it's like, I'm like 80% of the way there, but it points me to like, certain things that I can probably still, I'm still probably holding on to, yeah, Angel Perez 31:17 that's a really cool exercise. I'm gonna take that and try to do it, although I will tell you, I'm nervous just thinking about it, because what I may find out is that I am very misaligned, just because of all the kind of I have so many different constituencies in this role. And so my time has to be spread in so many different ways. But one of the things this sort of reminds me that one of the things that I'm trying to get towards is how I dedicate my time to things that only I can uniquely do in the organization. So in terms of impact, you know, I have this rock star team, what are the things that they can do well, and what are the things that only really I can uniquely do? And so as I think about my schedule in the years ahead, I'm trying to get there. So I wonder if maybe layering that question on top of the exercise you're talking about that could be a good one. I love that. Yeah, one of the things I'm getting better at, and I talked about this publicly before, is I used to have a really hard time saying no, and now I say no a lot more I don't say no, enough, so I'd like to get there any advice. I'll take it, but I do. The question I ask myself is, by saying yes, what aspect of myself am I saying no to? And I actually, I'll share. I was recently invited to be a trustee at an institution, and I struggled with the decision for a while. Actually, it took me, like, three months to get back to the president, partly because I love the institution, and I think it would be a fascinating opportunity, but I finally sat with that question, like, what am I saying no to if I say yes to this? And what I realized was that's four weekends a year that I'm traveling, that I am not, you know, caring for myself, that I am not even just spending time at home, and so just really proud of myself, that I honored myself first with that decision and decided I'm not going to do that. I'm actually going to say no. And so I remind myself that I'm on a journey, and I have small wins along the way that empower me. It's like a muscle you are using. And I was like, Okay, if I did that, I might be able to say no to more things. So we'll see. We'll see. Ethan Sawyer 33:39 One thing I've found, in terms of that, is like inviting people in on my team, in my family, to let them know that this is the project that I'm working on, this particular for example, saying no, yeah. Do you do that? Do you let people know when you're like, here are the things that I'm working on, for example, saying Angel Perez 33:56 yes. And actually it's I'm very fortunate. I have this wonderful team at NACAC, I have a chief of staff, and I have an assistant who, you know, without those people in a large, complex organization, it's very difficult to stay organized. And actually, we sat down last year, and we actually sat down in January to look at my calendar for the entire year space some things out and almost predict, like, when will you be running out of steam? We need to put a pause in between there. But I've also been really transparent with them that I am working on the ability to say no, and so I would like for you to feel empowered, to remind me when I come to you and say, that would be great, I'm going to go do that, for them to say, Do you really want to do that? Are you sure you want to do that? We don't think that's a good idea. And so, you know, and it's, it's hard, I think sometimes for people to do that, because the idea is, if the CEO wants to do it, then we should just do it. But it's great. I mean, they have pushed back on me several times already where they say, Well, you can, but should you. So and So surrounding yourself. Not everyone's fortunate enough to have a team, but if you have a colleague in the counseling office, right, or if you have a fellow admission counselor who you know sits with you just again, continuously reminding you, I'm here, I'm your accountability partner, Ethan Sawyer 35:17 and keeping an eye on that when it's hard for me to lose sight of that. For me, it's like, where I enter into this for the reason, part of why it's hard for me to say no is that I'm almost constantly caretaking Yes, and it's like, this is my role in this life. I decided at some point when I was however many years old, that I will help and take care of others and make sure that they're getting their needs met, because that's part of my job. And there are certainly some ways that we could be like that's great, and that served me. And then I also don't recognize when it's happening and it will just creep in. And I one of the things that's helped me this is with a recent conversation that I was having with one of my colleagues, is that there are certain things that we're on the long arc of. In other words, this one's gonna take some time? Yes, yes. Or, I guess I'm saying to you now, as we're talking about this, like, this caretaking thing is probably, for me, something that it's, it's, I'm on the long arc for and Angel Perez 36:10 you have to celebrate the small wins. Like, I will say, going back to the story about the trustee opportunity, that that was a big win for me right on the journey, even though, during that process, I was also like, Why did my schedule become this again, I was beating myself up, but then I realized that had I not been on this self care journey, I would have probably said yes to that opportunity, and while I would have enjoyed it to a certain extent, again, I would be burned out. I would be giving time that I really don't have. So another thing that's helpful for me in the process, besides the accountability partners and surrounding myself, is always asking myself, before I say yes, what is my intention? What is my intention? Right? Because oftentimes we say yes, and the intention is, I don't want that person to be mad at me. Yeah, I don't want that person to be disappointed by me. And so I now pause, and I asked myself, like, what? Why am I saying yes to that thing? And sometimes it's ego. I've written about this so it's, it's not a I'm not telling tales out of school, but I taught a course at Harvard Graduate School of Education, and I was invited to teach again. And I paused, and I said, this was again in the self care journey. And I said, Why am I doing this? And I realized that it wasn't because I loved it or because I wanted to impart knowledge, right? It was this institutional affiliation which I found really interesting. And so many of us fall into those kinds of things, or like, oh, it would be nice to be affiliated, you know, with Harvard Graduate School of Education, a place that I love, by the way. But again, I asked myself, What am I saying no to if I say yes to that opportunity? And it was, again, a lot of time that I don't have. But two, it was, I don't think I'm doing this for the right reasons, you know, I think this is ego talking. It's not actual, you know, wanting to educate. And so I pulled out, and I said, No, I'm not going to do that anymore. So, you know, everybody has a version of this. And so, and we're it's hard because we're never gonna get it 100% Ethan Sawyer 38:21 perfect. Totally. I'm so vibing with what you're saying on this. And my version of this, because, you know, I'm like, non violent communication super fan, is, like, what need can I be tapped into? Like, what is the need underneath this? Like, what need is this opportunity fulfilling for me, right? And is it a need for contribution, or is there something else, a need to be liked, a need to feel seen, or something like that. And I realized that I don't, I'm not able to feel into those things unless I have space right to fill into those things. And if my schedule, and it's happened for me this year a couple times too, where it's just I've had these crazy weeks, if I don't have space to, like, come back and like, actually feel my feelings, yeah, then it's not going to happen. You know, maybe we talked about this. My therapist at one point was like, Do you have unscheduled time? And I was like, Angel Perez 39:07 what is that? Excuse me, Ethan Sawyer 39:11 what do you mean? You know, kind of like, two blinks. And he was like, you know, times in your calendar where nothing is planned. And I was like, Well, why would I do that, right? Angel Perez 39:19 You know, but life changing, because totally you do it now, right? I do it as well. I do it as well. So I Ethan Sawyer 39:24 want to switch gears a little bit and talk a little bit about college admissions. Bigger Picture. Angel Perez 39:30 Is something happening in college admissions, Ethan Sawyer 39:34 ever and always? Yes, but I'm curious to hear from your perspective, based on what's happening in the world. Where do you see things headed in the next three to five years? In the college admissions landscape? What are some of the changes that you foresee? Angel Perez 39:50 Well, I think the first thing that I will predict, and I am not a crystal ball guy, so I'll just preface it by saying that, but I think this constant change. Which is actually our new normal. I do think, gosh, there's a quote, and I wish I could fully remember it, but it's by Justin Trudeau, and I showed it to the board of directors at NAT act the other I Ethan Sawyer 40:11 thought you were gonna say Justin Timberlake. And I was Angel Perez 40:13 like, Yeah, I don't often quote Justin Timberlake, or Justin Trudeau, to be fair, but he talks about the speed of change these days, and the fact that this is actually the slowest it will ever be again. And, you know, just mind blowing, right? And I showed that to the board of directors at NACAC, just to remind them, like, this is the speed we are going to work out now, and we're constantly going to be accelerating. I do think there's a lot of changes in the next three to five years. One thing that I think we have no idea what this is going to look like in terms of impact is artificial intelligence. I think it is has probably already landed at our doorstep, and we're not necessarily fully understanding the beast ahead. It's going to impact everything from essays, as I say this, to the College Essay Guy. It's going to impact how colleges and universities are evaluating applications, access to information. So that's in even advising. I think it's going to be really interesting. I think the way students connect to colleges is also going to continue to evolve, and I know NACAC wants to play a role in that, through our college fairs and reinventing some of our programs, but this whole notion that you turn 16 years old and you take a PSAT and then colleges start connecting with you, I think that's going to evolve, and it probably should, right, And so I think that's going to be really different. And I also do think how we evaluate students over time is going to change. I think, you know, our values have shifted. I think the test optional movement is something that has really sort of had a huge impact on colleges and universities, but it's also kind of the the opening for what else have we been taking for granted in this process that maybe hasn't suited us well in the past? And so I know that's probably not the answer you were looking for, but the answer is, buckle up friends, because there's a lot more change coming. Yeah. Ethan Sawyer 42:19 So how does that have you when you're talking to folks in the on your team or in the profession, how is that shifting the way that you're talking to folks like, what's becoming this kind of leading question? But what do you feel like is becoming more important for folks to do focus on like? So what do we do as a result of this? So what? Angel Perez 42:36 Yeah, I think nimbleness is going to have to be our new normal on our team at NACAC, we always talk about meeting the moment, because the way it seems to work these days is news drops, and immediately our members are asking, what is NACAC doing about that? And so there is a nimbleness that we have to have, but also an ability to respond very quickly although thoughtfully, and I also think bringing people together like that's what I'm most passionate about right now. Because what I am disturbed by, to be 100% honest, is that as the challenges in the college admission counseling profession continue to rise, we're beating each other up and throwing the daggers at each other. That's not useful, and I so part of what I think about deeply is, how can I use this platform that I've been given? How can I use the work of the association to bring people together? So we're thinking about how we strategically use our conference, the kind of education and training we're doing the advocacy, but even how we make people feel when they arrive at our events, and we're thinking deeply about every single one of those things to try to bring the profession together, I feel like more and more we're dividing ourselves between K K 12 and higher ed, you know, higher ed blaming counselors and counselors blaming admission Officers and, you know, and and to a certain extent, we're all feeling an extraordinary amount of pressure around all of these changes, but if we don't join forces, it's not going to get any easier. And so for me, that's something that's just top of mind every day. Ethan Sawyer 44:14 One thing that we've never really talked about is the ban on race conscious admission on how the impacts that that's had on colleges and where you see things headed, Angel Perez 44:27 yeah, well, to be honest, we don't know exactly what the impact is yet, because we're in the first year, right? And I'm calling this the year of calibration, and trying to figure out, how are institutions going to do this differently? What's the impact going to be across the country, I will say that one of the impacts that I have seen in that many high school counselors have told me about, is the psychological impact that it's had on students. Say more about that? Well, the reality is the adults in the room, so the counselors and people who do this work like me and you, we were steeped in the. Work and we understood what the Supreme Court case was about, what what the implications were students just here on the news, race was taken away as a factor in college admission. Many students have interpreted that as colleges don't want me anymore. Ethan Sawyer 45:17 Will you speak to those students like and disavow them. Yeah, well, well, I'm Angel Perez 45:23 glad, because every opportunity I've had please, I have said there is nothing further from the truth. Colleges just want you now more than ever, and just because the Supreme Court took away, you know, the ability for college admission officers to use race and admission has not taken away the passion that colleges and universities have for a diverse class every single year. And so, you know, one of the, again, this is a role I think NACA can play, is we've been trying to create a movement around the country, through our members, through using the media all of these different facets to ensure that students know, you know, don't drop out of the process. You know, engage colleges want you now more than ever, Ethan Sawyer 46:07 great. So I'd love to get practical for a second for college counselors, for students going through this process. What advice would you give to them in this new landscape? Angel Perez 46:16 Yeah. You know, in some ways things are different, but in some ways, in terms of the college admissions process, things are exactly the same. You know, you do the work that you will as a high school student and you go through the application process. What may be a little bit different is that you may want to advocate for yourself or tell a deeper part of your own personal story, and particularly as it relates to your identity in your essay, for example, or maybe high school counselors might want to tell a little bit more about the lived experience of a student in the recommendation letter. But what I don't want students to feel, and I hope you're all hearing me closely, is that you don't have to tell a trauma story to get into college. I will tell you that while I've been very appreciative of the Biden Harris administration and how supportive they have been in ensuring that colleges and universities remain diverse, I will never forget that when the decision dropped, President Biden came out on the garden and he talked about students overcoming adversity and that we need to admit students who are challenged with adversity. And yes, I agree with him, but I don't want people to equate being a student of color with adversity. Not all students of color are facing adversity, and you don't have to tell a trauma story to get into college. And so the reason I say some things are different, but some things also stay the same, is really the advice that I'm giving students, is tell the story you want to tell. Don't feel pressured to tell a story about your lived experience or your identity or your race, if that is not what's in your heart and you want to share with an admissions office. Ethan Sawyer 47:54 For those counselors and students who are listening to this and are like nodding along, counselors who are nodding along, we'll link in the show notes. There's past podcasts we did on literally, the title was why you don't have to write about trauma in your personal statement. And it gives like some other practical ideas, and, you know, brainstorming, how to actually help students get there, students, if you're listening, yeah, we've got practical resources on this, so we'll link to them in the show notes. Quick side note. Great. So one of the things we're hearing about, sort of in the media and oftentimes in the political landscape, is about the value of a college degree. Is college still worth it? Angel Perez 48:31 Absolutely. But let me tell you, I get very emotional about this topic, so I'm going to try to be brief. One of the presentations I gave recently, I showed a data point, 56% this was a Wall Street Journal poll. 56% of their readers have said that college isn't worth it. Let's take that with a grain of salt, because the Wall Street Journal has amongst the most educated readership in the world. My guess is they wouldn't say that to their children. They're talking about other people's children. And so I think it's very dangerous the road that we're going down where we have politicians talking about you don't need to go to a four year college, you don't need an education, because that's not the advice they're giving to their own children. So I want to preface it by saying that, but all of the data still proves that going to college, one is the fastest way upward in socio economic mobility. But over time, over your lifetime, you are going to make so much more money if you actually go to college. And there's all this data about you live a healthier life. You're more civically engaged. But the other piece that I think is really important to note. And I talked a little bit about this because in I live in DC, and right next door to me, in Maryland, the governor has removed certain requirements, actually college requirements, for entry level jobs in the state, which is great. It's a great entry point. However, you will hit a glass ceiling pretty quickly. If you don't get a degree. And so I think that's what I want people to know and to understand, that yes, you might get an entry level job, but if you really aspire to moving up in the profession, at some point, you will hit a ceiling if you don't get the degree. So college is still very much worth it. Don't let others fool you into believing otherwise. Ethan Sawyer 50:19 As you look ahead, do you find yourself when you think about the college admission landscape? Do you find yourself mostly optimistic or pessimistic? Angel Perez 50:28 I am an optimist by nature, and I wouldn't do this work if I wasn't optimistic. I think we are in a period of extraordinary change, and I do think what's on the other side is probably really exciting, but we're on in the messy, murky, painful period of change, but that other side is going to be a new college admission process and a new college admission journey, but we have to get through this messy period first. Ethan Sawyer 50:56 So as we wrap here, I'm curious, what would you like to say, if you were speaking to, let's say, 1000s and 1000s of counselors, as you often do, what advice would you give folks as they're thinking about navigating this uncertainty and a rapidly changing world? Well, Angel Perez 51:11 I would say to high school counselors, one, I understand the frustration, but at the same time, I also just want to share gratitude, because what they do changes people's lives. I mean, I am here talking to you today because a high school counselor at my public school tapped me on the shoulder and said, Young man, have you ever thought about going to college? And she had 600 kids in her caseload, and I was a low income kid who had no idea what college was about, right? And so regardless of the challenges that we have in this profession, the work is so critically important to the future of young people, and, by the way, to the future of a nation in our world, and so sticking with it and being patient with us. And also, I would say this to both sides, not just school counselors, but also higher education professionals, having grace for each other. This goes back to what I was talking about, that I think in times of intensity, our inclination to throw daggers and beat each other up continues to grow, and there's no value in that. We're not getting anywhere with it, and so showing each other some grace in this really messy period, I have the privilege of being on the ground with members all over the country and the world, and I can really confidently say most people are just doing the best they can under really difficult circumstances. Yeah, and for college admission officers, I want to also just extend my deepest empathy. I think it is a really hard job, while I, by the way, still think it is the best job you can have because I did it for over 20 years. I also know how much more complicated it is these days to bring in a first year class and the extraordinary pressures that they are feeling that are mostly external. And so what I would like to say, just like school counselors, your work is so critical. You are changing the lives of 1000s of people, and I really want people to stick with it. I worry about the fact that there's so much turnover in college admission and that people aren't staying and wanting to move up the ranks, and institutions need a lot of support, and so that's one area I know that I'm focusing on at NACAC, but stick with it. You are changing lives. Ethan Sawyer 53:23 So I want to end here on the personal, and I want to ask you, let's say we do this again in a year. I don't know if we'll record another podcast in a year, but what if Angel Perez 53:32 you bring the fireplace? Ethan Sawyer 53:36 What a year from now, what's shifted in your life? What's different a year from now, Angel Perez 53:42 on a personal note. On a personal note, yeah, I would like to say to you, when we open up the self care conversation that I have gotten much better at the management of my schedule and at saying no, that I have continued to evolve in that direction. I know it's not going to be perfect, but I want it to be much better than it is right now. Lovely. How about you? I'm curious. For me, Ethan Sawyer 54:06 I would love to be able to say that I am. I've had this sort of in the back of my mind, like, this athlete identity that I left behind in high school, and I've been sort of, like, wanting to, like, summon that. And so I'd love to be able to say to you a year from now, I'm, like, sitting up straight as I say, that I have, like, tapped back into that athlete identity, and that on a regular basis I'm doing cardio, and that I do, I'm doing something a little bit each day as it relates to calisthenics or strength training. So it's, like, very practical in the weeds. I'd love to be like, Yeah, I've been able to, like, sort of summon that athlete identity, and it I'll be 44 by then. I'd love to say at 44 like, I'm in the best shape that I've been in, let's say 10 years, because I think that's really when things sort of fell off for me. So Angel Perez 54:47 if I text you as an accountability partner, like, every couple months about this, like, how's it going? Would that stress you out? No, that would excite I would welcome that. Okay, I'm gonna do it. Ethan Sawyer 55:01 Thanks friends for listening. You'll find all the show notes as ever at college. Sa guy.com/podcast Hey, fun fact, this episode is kind of a preview of what's to come on the podcast. Up next, I'll be sharing a three part series on mental health disclosures in the college application process, and then we'll do a series on storytelling and identity. And for those of you who know that I studied screenwriting, this is a little bit of a returning to my roots moment, but I'll be interviewing some of my screenwriter friends to talk about how their unique identities inform their writing. And yes, you've seen some of their movies and TV shows. Stay tuned and stay curious. You Transcribed by https://otter.ai
