108: Demonstrated Interest: How to Build Authentic Relationships with Colleges (and Why It’s a Good Idea)

Ethan Sawyer  0:08  
Hey, friends. This is Ethan Sawyer, the College Essay Guy, and my goal is to bring more ease, joy and purpose into the college application process. Welcome to the podcast where it's my job to interview the most brilliant minds in the college admissions world, analyze their genius and break it down for you into practical, actionable steps that you can take if you're applying to college, or that you can use as someone else if they're applying to college. So this episode is an interview on interviews, Monica James, who you may have heard previously on the podcast, on the episode on demonstrated interest absolutely crushes it in this interview, offering more practical advice than you'll find in most of those weekend workshops on how to interview. And it's no wonder she's been doing this for years, helping people, and in particular helping high school students, teaching them how to give great interviews. So on this episode, we cover, among other things, why do colleges give interviews in the first place. Can a bad interview actually hurt your application chances? How do you prep for the interview? We get into a lot of specifics on that. What's the one thing that colleges are looking for above all else? In Monica's opinion, how do you answer the why this college question? How do you answer that strengths and weaknesses question? How do you answer the you know, what books are you reading? Questions? What's the hardest interview question and how do you answer it? What happens if you get a bad interviewer? What do you do if you're asked a question that you don't know the answer to? How do you respond? What should you wear? What are the logistics? All of it gets covered. Don't forget to check out the show notes page for a checklist of strong character traits, which Monica explains on the episode and Monica's list of commonly asked interview questions. Not only that, but I have my own list of commonly asked interview questions that's nestled inside college essay guy's complete guide to the interview. So this is something that I've been using with my students for years, and I've just decided I'm gonna just start giving it away, as I do with most other things. So inside that, you'll find a workbook where you can record all your answers from the guide as you prep for it, all of that in one podcast. Yes, indeed. Enjoy. Hello friends and welcome back to the podcast. Welcome back to Monica James, who, if you didn't hear her earlier episode on demonstrated interest, it's a rip roaring good time, and you can check that out on the podcast page, that's college sa guy.com/podcast, if you haven't met Monica, some quick facts about her, some places where she's spent time, or, as I like to say, Done time. Monica attended Vanderbilt and studied econ and psych. And to appease her more liberal arts side, she spent some time at Oxford University studying art history, BT Dubs. After college, she used her econ degree in commercial banking for a dozen years, but she wanted to take the skills she'd gotten from the business world into the communications world, so she started teaching public speaking and interview skills to executives for a company in Atlanta called speech works. So when talking to Monica, she feels that she's an excavator of people potential. I really love that her favorite thing when she's working with students is finding how their gifts, interests, aptitudes and values all intersect to help them find the best college so, oh, one more thing, she's a student of the field of positive psychology, and so she's interested in the way that people flourish, and loves helping students to flourish in particular through their essays and through their interviews. So that's what we're talking about today. So Monica, first of all, just Hi and welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me back. So talk to me. How did you first start down this path of coaching people and students on the college interview? Well,


Monica James  3:40  
it happens where, by accident, I was teaching public speaking for two TV producers who, after they left the television industry, they started a company to help executives make better speeches. And since they had been in television, these women understood the power of story no matter the situation. So when we help executives write speeches, we remind them of the following story, the guy who created 60 minutes, whose name was Don Hewitt, was once interviewed about how he made 60 minutes so successful, and he replied four little words, tell me a story. So adults are no different than children. In this way, it's easiest for us to receive information as a story. So I try to help kids present themselves in their interviews and in their essays through their


Ethan Sawyer  4:36  
stories. I love it. So why do colleges give interviews anyway?


Monica James  4:41  
So of course, there are lots of reasons they give interviews, but the primary one is just to see if you're a good fit. They're trying to assess your personality, your strengths, your goals, things that might not be that apparent from your file. And for colleges who still review admission files in. A holistic way, the interview can help reveal what motivates you, but more than anything, they're trying to, you know, figure out what is your intellectual vitality, which we'll talk about a little later. I think some universities also think that students who interview are actually more likely to accept an offer of admission if they're given


Ethan Sawyer  5:20  
one, right? See demonstrated interest. Podcast, yeah, exactly, yeah. And so Monica, do you feel like, well, in your experience, can an interview hurt an applicant?


Monica James  5:31  
So most of the colleges I talked to about this tell me that the interview almost always helps a student and rarely hurts a student, they say that the interview actually humanizes the student, and once they've met a student, they feel like it's it's easier to turn down a manila folder than it is, you know, a real person. So the only time I would say that a student shouldn't interview is if he or she is terribly shy. But even with that, I can help most students shine by helping them prepare, because really, there's no subject that you know as well as the subject of you, and so with just a little bit of preparation, most kids can handle an interview very well,


Ethan Sawyer  6:18  
right? And I want to get into that preparation part before we do I'm curious to know, like which colleges still require an interview.


Monica James  6:26  
So it depends on how you define require. So some colleges do require what they call an evaluative interview, and other schools say they strongly recommend an interview. In either case, if they say, strongly recommend you should definitely do it. Yeah, exactly, if for no other reason than for the demonstrated interest piece of it. So all of the Ivy League colleges except Cornell still require an interview, as well as dozens of other schools like Georgetown, Claremont, McKenna, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Mellon, Duke, Emery, to name a few. So


Ethan Sawyer  7:06  
what's your take? Do you feel like students, if it's strongly recommended or optional, do you feel like students should, should still do the interview?


Monica James  7:13  
Yeah, absolutely. So of course, we just talked about the fact it's a great way to show demonstrated interest, given that students are applying to more and more schools and universities are tracking how these applicants show interest in the school. If they're given an opportunity to interview, it would be pretty foolish not to and it shows the school that you're a serious contender, but it also can give you a really important opportunity to flesh out all your extracurricular activities. And as you know, better than anybody, on these essays, the essays seem to be getting shorter and shorter. So you know, they might ask, what is your philosophy of your of your world, or describe yourself in 200 words, and that's pretty hard to do. It's also easier to show enthusiasm with your voice sometimes than it is with your words. And the last reason is interviewing usually makes them like you. I usually like a student more once I've met them than when we're just emailing each other,


Ethan Sawyer  8:20  
right? I found that totally to be true. So I don't know if we've talked about this, but I did. I did a few years of as an alumni interviewer for Northwestern, and there was, it was really funny, and I think part of this is just my personality, but there were times when I would, you know, have just, you know, a student, for example, would walk into the interview and maybe they'd hand me a resume or something, and I'd glance at it and be like, okay, but by the end of that interview, a boy I was so on their team. Exactly, exactly. Recommendation that I'd write, you know, was just like, you gotta accept this kid. You know, this kid's amazing. This gets incredible.


Monica James  8:51  
So you know what? Since you mentioned resume, I just want to mention this while I'm thinking about it, I always recommend that kids bring their resume to their interview, even though it's not required, and they don't expect it, and often they won't even look at it. But the reason I think that's a great idea is, for example, if I'm I interview for my alma mater, and so if I'm sitting at Starbucks on a Saturday and I have four in a row, I may not write those reports up till Monday, but and I often wish that I've taken better notes, and I do take notes, but when I have the resume, I can fill in the gaps that I sort of forgot on that Saturday. This


Ethan Sawyer  9:32  
is something that I don't know if we were going to cover or not, but it's something that I find students often get tripped up with. So before we get into, like, the deeper preparation, sometimes students start to wonder about, like, What should I wear? What do you tell students about that? Yeah,


Monica James  9:45  
well, we can talk about all that kind of towards the end, like, what I call the ta, da, we'll cover it.


Ethan Sawyer  9:53  
Okay, great, super. All right, so talk to me about, how do students prepare for the interview?


Monica James  9:56  
Well, the first thing I'd say is they. Can prepare. So kids will say to me, Oh, Mrs. James, I can't really prepare. I don't know what they're going to ask me. And I say, yeah, you can prepare, because there are really only 20 or so commonly asked college interview questions. Awesome. So when I work with students, I have them take a stab at each question, and then I help them improve their answer, and the best way to improve your answer is with evidence. So you know that a lawyer wins a case with evidence, and so do you you convince your interviewer that you are an eager and curious student with the use of evidence. So let's look at an example. The easiest and most often asked question is, what is your favorite subject? And the basic answer might be physics, and the better answer might be physics because I love studying motion and acceleration. And a fabulous answer might be, I'm intrigued by physics because it's the basis for all other sciences, and it's so applicable to real life. So for example, I'm a pole vaulter, and I feel that understanding physics makes me a better pole vaulter. When I run down the runway and I leap from the ground, the more I bend the pole, the more elastic potential energy stored, and when this energy releases, I'm propelled over the bar. And physics does all of that. And I actually had a student this year, and that's a real life example. And I loved this kid. So I give my students a really simple formula called Q equals a plus one, where a is the answer and the plus one is one compelling piece of evidence. I


Ethan Sawyer  11:38  
love that. That's so great. Monica, this is, this is totally aligned with, there's an exercise that I play with students called the so what game, yeah, exactly. If you just keep asking yourself, so what? You know, if you guys just go back and replay Monica's answer every time she pauses, you can kind of mentally ask yourself, so what? And everything that she's saying after, in between her sentences, she's going a little bit one step further, one step further. And so Exactly, you basically just keep going until you find something interesting that you've said. And you can kind of practice this, when the person goes, Oh, there'll be like, a little moment or a nod, right? So what do you think? What do you feel like colleges are looking for, if you could define like one thing above all else that they're looking for? What do you feel like that is, I'm


Monica James  12:19  
so glad you asked this, because I think I can pinpoint it. Okay, call it, I call it intellectual vitality. And I know that sounds a lot like intellectual curiosity, but it's different in the following way, lots of kids have intellectual curiosity. Colleges want to see the kid who's actually done something with their curiosity, how they acted upon their curiosity. So they're looking for the kid who reads about game theory because he's an avid investor, or the the girl who works on the campaign of a state representative running for office because she's fascinated by politics, or the young man who wants to intern for the World Affairs Council, because he's into geopolitics.


Ethan Sawyer  13:03  
But wait so but you know, we could say, we could, I guess, make the argument that all kids are intellectual, but you know, what about those students who, whether you know, by their own admission, perhaps aren't super intellectual, or don't identify as intellectual. What about, you know, what about these students? What do you say to them?


Monica James  13:20  
Yeah, and I'm so glad you asked that, because there's lots of just regular kid kids out there, and they can also show intellectual vitality. So for example, I worked with a young lady this year whose parents were divorced, and her favorite thing was spending time with her dad. And what they did together was cook. But when I say Cook, they were like chefs. They experimented with ingredients. They made gourmet meals together. She was constantly reading recipes and learning how eggs affect the consistency of recipes or how yeast behaves in baking. And I thought that was cool, and that shows intellectual vitality too. And we actually wrote her Common App essay about this time that she spends with her dad. This


Ethan Sawyer  14:03  
is great. And, you know, two things occur to me. One is that answer to that intellectual vitality is often just so wedding yourself until you come up with something interesting and come up with is often, you know, shows that vitality and shows that you've got smarter interesting things to say, right? The second thing is that I found that students that I would talk to in these interviews were oftentimes, you know, telling me cool stories. And I'd be like, oh wow. And they'd be like, Oh yeah, that's what I wrote my essay about, you know, and I'll probably talk about this later, but I feel like writing your personal statement is a great way to prep for the interviews. Students are often like, how do I prep? It's like, make sure you've written your essays Exactly. Yeah. Speaking of what, talk to me about the why this college, or what I call the why us essay. How can Yeah, how can they or sorry, not not essay, but question. How do you recommend students prepare for this question?


Monica James  14:51  
So well, as you know, they get asked that a lot in their essays, and they also get asked it a lot in interviews. So. It's definitely a good one to prepare for. Let's first talk about what doesn't work very well. One of the things that I really don't like hearing, either in an essay or in an interview, is I want to go to x University because of your reputation in the business community. I just find that a really uninspired answer, and you don't want to waste your precious opportunity telling the college things about itself that it already knows they want to hear about you. The other thing is to avoid cliches. And oh, I hear these a lot, and I know you do too. Ethan, I've been going to University of Georgia football games every year since I was three, I want to be a bulldog and bark and wear red and


Ethan Sawyer  15:45  
black. Yeah. Hashtag bull dogs, right? Yeah.


Monica James  15:48  
So instead of those type of comments, I want them to talk about specifics that showcase their talents and interests. So let me go back to my pole vaulter again, and I


Ethan Sawyer  15:59  
love by the way. I just want to point out to y'all how awesomely Monica is modeling this q equals a plus one thing so, like, it's supporting everything with evidence. So just really appreciating that. Go ahead.


Monica James  16:08  
Thank you. Okay, so the pole vault the pole vaulter might say, Well, I'm looking for a university that feeds my fascination with physics, and I was astonished to realize that Georgia Tech also offers courses that intersect with my love for music. So seeing that I could take a course called the physics of music really interested me, and I want to learn about waves and frequencies and vibrations and see how they apply to my involvement with singing and the acapella group that I'm in. I'm also interested in astrophysics, and I'd hope to take cosmology so I could keep understanding stellar evolution, another subject that I love. That's a great answer,


Ethan Sawyer  16:54  
and that's even a stellar example, I'd say, sorry,


Monica James  16:58  
yeah, yeah, yeah. It shows he's done his homework, even to the extent of his looking for classes that particularly interested him. And it also, you know, when you think of somebody that loves physics, you might think of them as being a little geeky, but it shows a more, you know, humanity side of him, that he's showing this interest in music.


Ethan Sawyer  17:20  
Totally talk to me about that question that's about like, what is your strength or weakness? Because the cliche is like, Well, my weakness is I just work too hard. You know? I'm just,


Monica James  17:30  
yeah, right. So exactly? Well, first of all, this question can be asked in several different ways. So I always tell kids, preparing for this question actually prepares you for three questions. It's, you know, what? What are your strengths and weaknesses? It can also be, how would you contribute to this school? And so understanding what your strengths are also helps you answer. How would you contribute to this school, right? And then the third one is, you know, just variations of this, like, how would your family describe you, or how would your best friend describe you? So I actually find this to be a pretty hard question, and the reason is, most kids use the same words over and over again, hard working, or, you know, whatever. So yeah, passionate. So I start off by giving them a list of strong character traits, and I'm happy to share it with you for your notes. Awesome. I asked students first to go through with a highlighter and highlight all of the words that pertain to them, and then I asked them to go back over their highlights and pick three or four. But the trick is this, they can't choose a word unless they have a good piece of evidence. So for example, if they choose the word committed, then I want them to follow up with an example, like how they volunteered at the Ronald McDonald House every Saturday for the last 12 months. Or if they choose the word autodidact, then they might explain how they taught themselves Java online so they could write apps. And then as to the weakness one, you really only need one weakness. It's not likely your interviewer is going to say, Well, tell me another weakness, right, right. So, but at the same time I would try, I would avoid trying to sugar coat your weakness or using a weakness like you said, that really sounds like a strength. So for example, saying, Oh, I really spend too much time studying sounds ridiculous and forced. We all have weaknesses, right? So it's better to sound authentic and then explain how you're trying to overcome the weakness. Oh, that's great. So I had a girl recently who when we were practicing, she said, Well, Mrs. James, I'm really not sure if I should say this. And I said, Well, let me hear it, and then we'll talk about it. She said, I really start a lot more things than I. Actually complete. I have a lot of ideas rolling around in my head, and I get really excited about them at first, and then I kind of fail to get them to, you know, come to fruition. So I started a club at my school to get people more open minded about hearing each other's viewpoints. And I thought it was a great idea on paper, and then suddenly I lost my momentum, but it's something I'd like to pursue in college. And I said, perfect. Say it just like that, because they're gonna love the fact that even though you don't get to complete everything, that you do have all these ideas rolling around in your brain, and they're gonna really admire that


Ethan Sawyer  20:40  
I love this and just the impact for me when, when, when I was imagining that student sharing this, you know, I start things and don't finish them. I was like, Oh, me too. So I was like, that's, that's a great moment to potentially, you know, open your heart a little bit and connect with this person. Because, like you said, we've all got weaknesses, and so right, your weakness isn't specifically my weakness, as this one happened to be like, it helps me just see more of you and get to know more of you. So Right? I really appreciate that. Talk to me about the books question. This is a tough one, right? Like, you know those, yeah, but you're reading life, or what books? Yeah, what's, how do they what to do there?


Monica James  21:17  
Well, I have to confess, when I'm interviewing, it's my favorite question. And the reason it's my favorite question is I love books. I'm a junkie, so I'm always shocked and honestly a little bit disappointed that kids don't read anymore. And I'll confess that I tend to favor the kids who do. But when I have a student with me and they say, oh my gosh, Mrs. James, I don't know what I'm going to say, I don't read, then I try to figure out, yeah, you do read. Let's just talk about what are the ways that you read. So for example, if they read the New Yorker because they like the short stories, that's really impressive. Or if they don't particularly engage with fiction, but they like nonfiction, then I'd want to hear some examples that jive with their outside interests. So they might tell me they're interested in investing and that they read books about the stock market, or that they love to play chess and they read books about strategic opening moves on the chessboard. Because I think most kids think that when they're asked about reading, they need to say Moby Dick. And these days, no one really expects that of them. And then there are kids who read newspapers. And you know, a lot of kids tell me they get notifications of breaking news on their phones. And I know this generation obtains their knowledge of the world in lots of ways, outside of books, and I know I need to be really tolerant of that when I'm when I'm interviewing them. And then some kids follow Twitter feeds of people like David Brooks from the New York Times, or even smart comedians like Jon Stewart or Trevor Noah or John Oliver. And that counts too. But with that being said, if I can get them to just start a book before an interview, so they can have a little bit to talk about, then we try to squeeze that in. That's


Ethan Sawyer  23:08  
great. And you know, what's funny is, there will be some students listening and asking the question, well, which book should I read? You know, which kinds of books should I read? And so the I think the obvious answer to this is like, well, read something that you're interested in, but that's also kind of intellectual. But right, exactly it's so, yeah, so I just want to second that advice from Monica, like, you know, be reading something. I think that's great. That's a great tip. Sometimes it's sort of like, well, can I start now? And it's like, yeah, finish your college apps, if you're if you're still working on them. But, you know, yeah, you can't start what do you feel Monica is the hardest interview question. So


Monica James  23:45  
I love this because the hardest question is also the easiest question, and that question is, tell me about yourself. And so, I mean, most kids just dread this question. They have no idea, and there's not a wrong answer to it right, but it can be such a missed opportunity. Sometimes interviewers open with this question, either because they haven't prepared or they think they're throwing you a softball. So let me just give an example. Sam Jones, not his real name was the valedictorian of his high school class of 300 and he had made it to semi finalists. This is a true story, by the way. He had made it to semi finalists for a scholarship at Chapel Hill. He had the wisdom to seek out some help preparing so when I asked him, Sam, tell me about yourself, he said, Well, my dad's a lawyer. My mom works in a soup kitchen on Tuesdays. I have a little brother and a new puppy. And I said, Sam, you didn't tell me. You were elected prefect of the Honor Council. You didn't tell me you worked as an intern at the World Affairs Council of Atlanta. You didn't tell me you. Help teach computer software workshops to underserved kids for all four years of high school. And he said, Oh yeah, right, Mrs. James, I guess I forgot all that. So I teach a concept that I call the silver platter, and I look for students to imagine that they have a silver platter full of their favorite cupcakes to offer their interviewer. And I don't want them to leave that interview without having delivered every single one of those cupcakes into the lap of their interviewer. That's great. So before their interview, I have them do a brain spill. I have them write a bullet point for every single item that they want to have out there before the interview ends. In other words, identify your cupcakes. And that's a term I use a lot. And then, you know, the kids will come back and say, Oh yeah, I got all my cupcakes delivered. So when we go back to our example of Sam, he and I structured a three part answer that allowed him to touch on each of his interests, school leadership, foreign affairs and technology literacy. And so he had three major bullet points, so that he, when the time came, he could give an impressive but succinct answer to tell me about yourself, and then the thing that we practice it, and the thing that kids worry about is they feel like they're preparing to give a monolog. But what I tell them is, once you get started, your interviewer will start to interrupt you, and they'll start to ask you questions. But the benefit of having prepared this question in this way, is that you have your own structure of where to begin so that, and once you highlight your three points and you you preview them for your your interviewer, you'll help her to concentrate and anticipate where you're going to take her on this story of you.


Ethan Sawyer  27:00  
This is so great. This is, this reminds me of, I did a little bit of media training when I worked a job, you know, I guess 10 years ago or so now, and a lawyer trained me on, you know, he's like, basically developed what he called your message box. And just like the silver platter idea, it's like, what are the three things that you want to talk about no matter what? And he said, you'll notice politicians will actually, you know, use this. And so what it is, and you'll, in the show notes, I'll link to my own guide to this process. It's really Monica, and I really synced up on this, which is part of why we're doing this. But, you know, we feel like our you know, he I felt like there were just a few things. If you can get these three things identify what they are, you can pretty much these are things usually, you know, really well. And so it's gonna be pretty easy, no matter what the question is, to kind of segue to these things exactly, yeah, what if? What if the the interviewer, though, isn't super i don't know i had it. There was a student that I was working with a couple weeks ago, and there's this optional, you know, I think it's for Carnegie Mellon or somebody, you know, question that's like, how, you know, how did your interview go? And the student said to me, like, my interview, like, just the interviewer wasn't that great, and we didn't have a very great conversation. Like, what is how does a student handle that?


Monica James  28:11  
Right, right? It's such a good question. So yeah, not all college interviews proceed the way you think they will. And we're hoping they're going to be really straightforward, like, what's your favorite class, or tell me about being on the lacrosse team, and but your interviewer may not have even prepared a set list of questions, or your interviewer might see herself as sort of a journal interviewer, wanting it to feel more like A conversation than an interrogation. And while that all sounds good and benign, it's important that the student knows how to control, take control of the interview. So students will say to me, yeah, it went fine, but they were frustrated that they weren't asked key questions. So like the boy who's elected to the UNICEF youth board never gets a chance to tell his interviewer how much he had learned about the global children's crisis, or the girl who raised $20,000 for Alzheimer's was ever only asked about for academics. And this is where that silver platter works really well too, because just the process of mining these things for yourself, makes it more likely you'll be able to fit them in during the conversation. And also, I like to tell kids that they can always add in what they want, even if they're not asked the question. So you know, at the very end of the interview, they could say, wow, there's one more thing I want you to know. Or the girl who's raised money for Alzheimer's might answer the question, what are you interested in studying in college? She might respond, well, I'm not sure yet, but one thing I know is I'd really like to pursue work for the greater good. This semester, I had a fundraiser. That raised $20,000 for Alzheimer's, I really enjoyed putting together the whole experience and being able to actually quantify the good that came out of it. So like you said, the news industry calls this pivoting, or politicians do this, and you can pivot too. And then again, you can say at the end, there's one more thing I want you to know about me.


Ethan Sawyer  30:24  
You know, another group that I'm realizing that does this a ton and does it in much more obvious and blunt ways is stand up comics. And if you guys, like, will just watch stand up comedians. You'll hear them, you know, be like. So speaking of, you know, mother in laws, my wife, and they'll just suddenly, and it's something that they've already brought up. So if you just watch them segue, it's gonna be kind of obvious. But here's the funny thing about transitions, is that, like, if the next thing that you say is interesting enough, like, yeah, the transition might be, like, a little bit awkward, but what's really important is, like, the next interesting thing you say, and if it's compelling and it's helping contribute to your application or to the, you know, the interviewer's perception of you, like, it's actually, I think, kind of okay, so yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, yeah. And this is actually something you can practice too. So as Monica is saying, like, you know, sitting with somebody who's, you know, either trained in this or, you know, you could even, and you can talk to us more about who to best practice this with. But this is this pivoting thing, you know, once you've got a few of these things that you want to say, you can just sit with somebody and have them ask you questions and then practice getting to the practice getting to the thing that you really want to say. Now, we want to make sure that it's not so obvious that it feels like good on someone's desk. Talk to me about, you know, what's your favorite subject? And you say, Well, let me tell you about, you know, running for student council. It's a little awkward, but if you started talking about, you know, that start to answer the question, then eventually you could potentially pivot. But this is something you get better at with practice. Exactly. Yeah. So tell me what are some other any other favorite questions that you have?


Monica James  31:48  
I always like to ask about academic pursuits outside of the classroom, and when I ask that, it's I'm not really asking about extracurricular activities. What I'm looking for in this answer is the student who has a tremendous interest in something academic that he's not getting in school. So, for example, I recently had a young man absolutely intrigued by marine biology. He read everything he could about aquatic life. But this also, this interest also spilled over into the health of our oceans and lakes and streams, or another young man who knew literally more about us security policy than most adults. I know this is so, yeah, go ahead. I love seeing, yeah. I love just seeing like an academic spark of something that they're getting out that they're getting outside.


Ethan Sawyer  32:39  
It shows ambition, and it shows that you were smart enough to go research it. So when I hear that, I get super excited too. What's is there another question, other questions that you feel like students really struggle with? I'd


Monica James  32:51  
say probably the one they struggle with most, not all kids, but a lot of kids, is current events. And I confess I always ask students what current event has caught your attention, because I really think we need to know what's going on outside of our own high school bubble, so they don't need to know everything that's going on in the world. But you know, they're busy with sports and APS and all that, but I suggest that for several weeks leading up to interview season, maybe they listen to NPR on their way to work, or they watch CNN during the five minutes they're wolfing down breakfast. And then if they have a particular area of interest that they dive into the news about that interest. So going back to the kid with the marine biology, he doesn't, he doesn't need to know about Syria, but it'd be good if he knew about, you know, the EPA, or, you know, funding that's being cut from the EPA having to do with his beloved oceans, or, you know, global warming. Or if they're interested in the stock market, that they read a little bit of the financial news headlines,


Ethan Sawyer  34:03  
yeah. And it's amazing the range of, like, how informed students are and how not informed students are, you know, just based on a particular interest. So like, one student will be like, Oh, I'm kind of interested in, like, you know, business. And some students do this all the time. And there are other students who, you know, haven't done much research, or, you know, done much in the realm of business, right? It just kind of thought it might be a cool thing. So if you're listening to this as, like, a ninth or 10th grader, and, you know, there's a particular field that you may be interested in, this is a great way to figure out, like, okay, is this something that I could really super get into, and by the time I'm in 11th and 12th grade, like, you know, have some stuff to say about it. And I'm not saying exactly, you need to be, like, totally, completely informed. But you know, it's this is something that you can start doing now. So just throwing that out, right, right, right. What if, Okay, what about this one? What if a student is asked a question and they have absolutely no idea what to say,


Monica James  34:54  
right? So I'm glad you asked this, because it's really important. So more than. 90% or so of the questions they will be asked they will know the answer to, because it will be about them. But occasionally there's a question that you just can't prepare for. So let me give you an example. I had a young lady come to me after she had had a disastrous interview, and she was actually being interviewed by a panel of her own teachers at her own high school who were screening for the Jefferson scholarship at UVA. And everything was going just fine, until one teacher asked her, What do you think about the ideas of Betty Friedan. Now, let me tell you, Betty Friedan was a famous feminist who wrote a book called The feminist feminine mystique. But she was famous in the 1960s and there was no reason this 17 year old girl would have ever heard of her. And it was a ridiculous question, but the young lady pretended to know, oh no, and she quickly buried herself in quicksand. So if you're asked a question that you have absolutely no idea to answer, the best answer is, I'm sorry, I don't know. And then you put your lips together and you be quiet. And I'm serious about that, because within moments when there is silence, your interviewer will move on to the next question, and there will be no harm done.


Ethan Sawyer  36:31  
That's so great, because it's like social pressure increases in that silence, and then the interview feels like they got to fill it in with a new question, exactly.


Monica James  36:37  
And that's a discipline to put your lips together, yeah, but that's exactly what they should do. And then there may be, like, some open, open ended questions that may need some quick thinking, but that kids are perfectly able to handle. So for example, they may be asked something like, what's a problem that your generation faces? And while that question might not necessarily be about them, there's also no wrong answer, and there are so many creative ways to answer that. So what they should do? And I know Ethan you're all about values, they should think about your their value system. What do you care about? What worries you? Is it global warming, or is it the clan mentality of our two party system, or is it a lack of general civility in the world? So I suggest that kids think about what they value ahead of time, and then it makes these kinds of open ended questions much easier to handle.


Ethan Sawyer  37:38  
One of the things another way of getting it values, because sometimes that seems, that question seems like, I don't know what I value. There are two resources. One is, if you just Google values, exercise, College Essay, Guy, there's a little resource for that. But the second way of getting at this is by asking yourself, like, what? What pisses you off, right? And if you can start thinking about, like, what really makes you mad, and I'm not talking about like, you know, getting cut off in traffic, although that, you know, I guess, could be interesting. I'm talking about like in the world, like when you see certain people being mistreated, or you see injustice or inequality, like, what specifically, what specific, you know, people being mistreated really makes you mad, especially time researching and thinking about that, because that can be a great end to what fires you up.


Monica James  38:22  
Yeah, that's really good point. Yeah, talk


Ethan Sawyer  38:24  
to us about Okay, talk to us. I've spent some time, Monica, you don't know this about me, but I've spent a lot of time actually reading books on body language, and I'm kind of obsessed with it. Yeah, sometimes I'll start sessions with students, and I'll say, not sessions, but like workshops. And I'll the last thing we all do, like, what is your superpower? And I'll tell them my superpower is, like, analyzing body language. So, oh, really, you give any advice in terms of body language? Yeah.


Monica James  38:45  
So there are basically two aspects to any interview. There's the content piece, and then there's what I call the Ta da, ta da, and it refers to everything except the content. So it's the way that you dress and the way that you sit and the way that you shake hands and your eye contact. So what you asked me earlier about how to dress, and I would say that for the college interview, you don't have to dress up, but you don't want to look sloppy either. You want to look respectful, so jeans are fine, as long as they're not torn and you wear a nice shirt on top. Young ladies shouldn't wear anything too revealing. They don't want to wear loud makeup or a lot of jewelry. Why? Because doing so just distracts from your own message. So you want your interviewer to be focused on what you're saying, not what you look like.


Ethan Sawyer  39:41  
Also, we say that one? Because, interestingly, this is not, not bad smelling, but, as you know, someone who's auditioned a lot in, you know, in LA, you know, when folks, folks would say, like, don't wear perfume to this castle, right? Because people can be allergic. So, you know, even having a strong, strong smell that could potentially be offensive, even that's a really good. A point


Monica James  40:02  
exactly, you're absolutely right. I think the handshake is really important. It's your first point of contact. So I suggest that a firm handshake is always appropriate. I find being that I'm in Atlanta, in the south, there are a lot of very polite young men whose very polite southern daddies have taught them that women are the frail or gender, and they should shake their hands very gently. And I say ba humbug to that. I want a very firm handshake. I always think that's the right thing to do. That's great. In fact, at speech works, we taught a handshake, web to web. So if you think of the web inside, you know, between your thumb and your index finger that you should hit the web of the hand of the other person, and then nice, firm handshake. What do you


Ethan Sawyer  40:55  
do? I'm going to cut you off with a little question, what do you do if you're what? If you do, if your interviewer just goes in for the hug. Like, what? What do you do there?


Monica James  41:04  
Oh, well, first I would say, I think it's pretty inappropriate for an interviewer to go in for the hug, yeah, but I guess you would kind of hug back, like, not, not really enthusiastically, but politely, that's good. Yeah, I guess is how I would, I would handle that. And then when you're shaking their hand and meeting them for the first time, looking them in the eye is really important. But speaking of eye contact, that's probably the question I'm asked about the most. And I really think kids worry about that too much. So, as you probably know from studying body language, as much as you do when we're asked a question, it's really normal to look away to think for a minute. And in fact, the field of neurology has taught us that when we tend to look up and to the left when we're gathering a memory, particularly when we're being honest. And then once you've gathered that thought, you return to the eyes of your interviewer and you deliver your answer. And we all do that quite naturally. But what I do see, that I think is really odd, is that some kids will look away when the interviewer is talking to them. In other words, when the interviewer is speaking, the student looks away. And I don't know if that's because they're bored or they're intimidated, but that's the time I tell them it's most important to retain eye contact. Is when they're talking to you, it's just polite. And then the other thing I would say about body language is not to fidget. Girls shouldn't twirl their hair. I've also noticed this weird habit that girls have, particularly if they're wearing a sweatshirt, they pull their hands up into the sweatshirt. So I like to tell kids for interviews, like not to wear something that's going to where they're going to do that, you know, wear something with shorter sleeves because it looks very insecure. Um, boys shouldn't crack their knuckles or twist the paper clip they just found in their pocket, just because it can be very distracting. But on the other hand, using your hands and gesturing while you talk is great. It's perfectly fine to use your hands as you talk. But other than those things I just mentioned as a general rule, I'd say, don't worry too much about your body language. It's better to concentrate on your content, and the rest will follow pretty naturally. I'm


Ethan Sawyer  43:35  
so glad you said that. And just from the world of body language, the Just think, if y'all think about what Monica said in terms of, like, hiding your hands in your sweatshirt, which I'll sometimes do, just to, like, stay warm, and it kind of feels good, but the message that it's subconsciously sending is like, I have something to hide, and it's just my hands, but there's, it's like, I think subconsciously sends a message is like, what else might this person be hiding or be afraid of? So, you know, it's such great advice to just like, take that even off the table by just wear something different. It's great. Yeah, right, right. What if it's a Skype or phone interview? Do you recommend different advice for


Monica James  44:08  
that? Yeah, slightly. I mean, I would still prepare in the exact same way, but there are a few tips and tricks to the Skype interview. First of all, if you know you're going to have a Skype interview, and by the way, those are happening more and more, number one, because colleges don't want to spend the money taking admissions officers time for, you know, a long in person interview. So sometimes they'll have sort of an assistant do a Skype interview, that sort of thing. You want to be sure if you're going to have a Skype interview, that you get the software downloaded well, that you practice in advance. Sometimes I'll have kids bring their laptops over, and I'll put them in a different room, and we'll practice over Skype. But the biggest difference with a Skype interview is the use of the camera, and most of us who use Skype. I, you know, to talk to friends and family, we don't worry about where we're actually looking, but to really look like you're looking at your interviewer occasionally, you want to look directly into the computer camera. And that's not something you have to maintain, because it's going to feel really weird to do that. But if you do it just occasionally, it gives the impression that you're actually looking into their eyes. And so it'll it'll increase the feeling of connectedness. And then for a phone interview, I always tell students to do a phone interview standing up, because it tends to energize your voice. When we sit down on the phone, it makes us sort of lazy speakers, and our voices don't sound as energetic and enthusiastic.


Ethan Sawyer  45:46  
This is awesome. This is so practical. This is like, you're hitting me right, right where I live. Monica, how did let's talk logistics for just second. So how does set up an interview?


Monica James  45:57  
So different colleges will do this differently, but typically the interview gets triggered once the application is in. And it also depends on whether it's an on campus interview or an alumni interview. If it's an on campus interview, usually the students sign up through a portal, and if it's an alumni interview, the alum reaches out over email, which brings me to an important point, if an alum contacts you by email, I want you to be very thoughtful about how you present yourself over email to them. Yes, and I'm finding this so often it makes me a little nutty, but I hate when kids just launch into an email without a few easy formalities, such as starting the email with Dear Mrs. James. Instead, students are starting their emails with Hey, how does Saturday work for you? And I find that kind of off putting. I also feel like they should close the email with something like sincerely or thank you in advance for your time or something like that. So remember, in this scenario, those emails are really your first impression. They're your first contact with an with an interviewer. So you want to be sure you do that carefully as well.


Ethan Sawyer  47:15  
Yeah, that's so great, I mean, and I think some students would be surprised that how poorly written and quickly written sometimes these emails are, you know, that that's like not even capitalizing eyes and stuff, and sort of exactly signing off or forgetting to even put a name, you know, so that that can be super important. And how do you recommend that students practice? Is it, you know, you mentioned this earlier, but is it, you know, a friend, a parent, like, what? What's the best way? Okay,


Monica James  47:41  
good question. So first, I'd suggest that they go through all the questions that I think you'll put on your notes. We'll do it. Yes. I'm gonna give you a list of questions. Yeah. Thank you. So I would suggest that they type them all out and really think through how, what is their best answer? How, in the best of all worlds, if they can answer it perfectly. How would they answer it and type it out, but don't memorize it. Then, after you've typed it out, try saying them out loud to yourself. Well, when I say to yourself, I don't mean a whisper. I mean you should be hearing the sound of your voice, because from a neuro linguistic standpoint, we now understand that saying things out loud helps us remember them better than when we whisper in our heads. So like when I was at speech works and clients would say to me, how do I memorize this presentation? Well, they don't have to memorize it, but if you say it out loud, they're going to remember the key points I tell kids like practicing your car. The car is a great place to practice because you're not worried about anyone overhearing you, and you're not worried about feeling weird. But they really need to say the answers out loud, and there's no reason they need to say it the exact same way twice. This is the story of you, you're gonna remember it right?


Ethan Sawyer  49:03  
And, in fact, it's probably even better not to like, I'd say, keep, you know, keep switching it up. And, you know, sometimes students are like, well, I'll record, I'll try recording myself and then play it back. But some people are actually really, you know, self conscious about their sound of their voice recorded. So absolutely, that's something that you want to get used to. I wouldn't say, do it like with this, because you'll start to become overly aware, you know, you do that separately, but


Monica James  49:24  
yeah, oh, and you also asked me, like, who? Yeah, and I would say, I really don't think it's a good idea to interview with parents, because parents have, you know, they're all wrapped up in their own anxieties about this process, and so parents are going to want you to sound hyper intellectual, and that's not really necessarily what you want to be in your interview. You want to be your best version of you. So parents tend to shut kids down a little bit, and at the same time, practicing with your friends isn't such a good idea either be almost for the opposite. Reason like you feel embarrassed to show your more intellectual side. So I almost think it's just better to prepare these answers on your own, you know, on your computer first, if you can type out your very best answer and then practice it out loud. Awesome.


Ethan Sawyer  50:19  
Or work with somebody like Monica, and does this kind of thing talk to me about just scholarship interviews? Do you feel like those are any different, or are those pretty much the same? So at the


Monica James  50:30  
beginning they're pretty much the same. You know, the initial screenings are pretty much identical to everything we've already discussed, but the big scholarship interviews often have a weekend or multi day component. So in other words, the student may be invited to the university over a weekend where they'll attend seminars and social events, as well as the interview or multiple interviews. And I explain to students that during those weekends they should always assume that there's never a time when they aren't being evaluated in some way. And it's exhausting for kids truly, because they really can't let their hair down for 48 hours, except when they're sleeping. But so sometimes kids will be placed into groups and asked to solve problems. I don't mean like math problems, but things like challenges facing their generation, and they may be asked a question and asked to brainstorm about it together as a group. So and while they do that, they're being observed. So what are the observers looking for? They're looking for things like creative thinking, but they're also looking for things like, how well does this person listen to the other people's ideas? Are they bombastic? Like, do they try to take over, or do they have a more collegial manner? And those things matter, because when you're part of a tight knit community of other scholars, they want you to fit in, and then at things like social functions, they may be having dinner with students who are already accepted, scholars who are a year or two older and already part of the program. So in those cases, I explain it's more important that the older students like you than be impressed by you. So what's the easiest way to become liked by someone quickly? And I used to love to tell my kids about this when they were little. I would tell them, It's better to be charming than interesting. So what's the difference? So you've met lots of interesting people, and they're just that they're interesting. They'll tell you stories about themselves that show that they're intellectual or curious or whatever. But what's even better than being interesting is being charming. And how are you charming? By asking questions about the other person. So in other words, Ethan, I'm sure you've had this happen. You leave a cocktail party and you think, wow, I really like that John Doe. And then if you were to ask yourself the follow up question, why did I like John Doe so much, you might realize it was because he was asking you lots of questions about you, and that's being charming,


Ethan Sawyer  53:23  
right? It's so funny that this, this dovetails with advice that I well, two bits of advice they give, which is like, rather than like, how do you be interesting? Like, be interested. And it's that outward focus. And I love that image in the head of like, what did I like about John Doe? I don't know what it was. He just seemed really, I don't know. We tend to say like, that person seemed really interesting. But it's oftentimes, it's just because they were holding up a mirror, or exactly the tag of this podcast is like, stay cute, right? You know, there's Right, right place of curiosity. Yeah, one, one way that I've been thinking about this comes from the authentic relating community, is just really trying to get the other person's world. And this is something that I'll sometimes say students when it comes to interviewing, is, you can kind of flip an interview, whether the person is formally interviewing you, or it's one of these, like weekend experiences, by just getting really curious about that person's experience. You know, what is it? What was your experience like at such and such college? And like, questions I love to ask is, you know, have students ask is, like, what would you have done differently? You know, What? What? What do you feel like the school didn't do well, just really listening, and, like I said, trying to get their world being curious about that. Because other other questions will occur, and there will, there will come a point, I'm sure, in the interview, where the interview will get, oh, we're interviewing you. But one of the things they used to say about Meryl Streep when she would audition for stuff, is that, you know, they thought she was interviewing, they were interviewing or auditioning her, and she would actually audition them. She'd find a way to flip it part of her, part of her genius, part of her genius, right? Part of energy and power. And just on that last tip before we. Do our little show and tell bit here. What, in terms of, you know that usually, or I find that oftentimes, at the ends of these interviews, folks will say, You know what is, what did you have any questions for us? Oh, right,


Monica James  55:11  
yes, yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up. Yeah. So I go, I do ask kids to prepare for that. And just like you said, I often like for kids to get the interview, talking about them for a minute, part of being charming. So saying, if it's an alumni interview, they might say, tell me about what you loved about your university experience, or what did you love about this school. And if it's an admissions officer, it's likely they didn't even go to that university. So a good question might be something like, what do you feel is the best thing about the kids who go to this university, or what is something that makes you really proud of working for this university? So get them talking a little bit on the other end, yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  56:01  
there's, there are interesting moments and opportunities for, like, the one that you mentioned earlier, that I really liked of just saying, Well, I don't actually know, like, you know, you know, the end answer to something, because it kind of puts it back on the interviewer to actually have to do a thing. I think that right? Sometimes students, and I felt this way in some situations where I feel like I had to, like, be the one dancing up on stage. Yes. And instead, if you choose, kind of invite yourself to sort of imagine that you're sitting on stage with the interviewer, and it's one of those sit down situations, you know, like on a late night talk show, and you guys are kind of just riffing together that that's a much more, you know, balanced way of thinking about it, as opposed to, like you said, kind of the interrogation or the spotlight. Yeah. And


Monica James  56:38  
Ashley, that's such a good point, because I have had some kids say, Mrs. James, it was harder than I thought it would be, because they started by saying, what questions do you have? And that's again, where you go back to your silver platter knowing what you want to deliver. So you know, the back to the ball Evolver. He might say, Well, I'm really interested. I want you know, I'm really interested in physics. Can you tell me a little bit more about are there research opportunities in physics here? But always be thinking about your cupcakes and delivering your cupcakes even when you're not being asked specific questions.


Ethan Sawyer  57:15  
And don't be afraid of stumping them. You know, sometimes a student will say, Oh, here's some questions I'm interested in. And I'm like, ooh, those are really tough ones. Those are great ones, you know. And if you're doing an alumni interview, and then the alumni has, you know, they haven't been connected to school for several years, they may be well prepared and have a bunch of answers, and they may have no idea, and you might get something like, Well, I don't know, but I'll get back to you. I can get back to you on that, you know exactly, but I'll find out. And if you've done that, You've stumped them, and I think you've shown your intelligence. Yes, really, that's so true. So I think great questions are a great way of showing how smart you are, right, right, right. Well, lovely Monica, you're the best. I really appreciate this. My pleasure talk to me about, let's do the show and tell bit. This is the bit if you just never listened to the podcast before where we just talk about one thing that's inspiring us or that we're finding useful in our lives. Monica, what have you got for show and tell?


Monica James  58:08  
Well, I told you that I'm kind of a book geek, and so I'm on the board of the Atlanta library, and I was so excited to discover an app called hoopla, and it's not just an Atlanta thing. So hoopla is a digital library. It's like a digital public Library. So I can download all the books I could ever imagine. I can download music, I can download audio books, e books, whatever. And I'm also an avid gardener, so when I'm in the garden, I love to download books for free. It's a library, and, you know, get tons of reading done. So I just think it's a great resource. Like, kids don't go to the library much anymore, but they can put the app, the hoopla app on their phone and download just about any book they want.


Ethan Sawyer  59:04  
Yeah, it's beautiful. I was amazed at just how much my Los Angeles Public Library access gives me to just in terms of movies and, you know, audiobooks and just everything so.


Monica James  59:15  
And there's also a similar one, um, I can't remember what it's called, but it's, it's magazines that are also free, right?


Ethan Sawyer  59:24  
That's beautiful. So mine is, it's, you know, I imagine when folks will be listening to this will be kind of around the holidays, and we happen to be recording this right around the holidays. And there's a new game that I've started, you know, playing, and I think you can get it like Barnes and Noble. I'm sure you can get on Amazon, but it's called Hot Seat. And the way you play this game is pretty simple. It's got this box of 100 or 200 questions. You pull a question out, and let's say you're in a group of six people, and the question is, you know, what's something that I crave but rarely get? So everybody writes down an answer to the question for whoever it is. So let's say I'm sitting here with my family, and, you know, my dad, my. Mom, my wife, you know, my friends, write down like the answer to the question. You put all the answers, then I read all the answers aloud, and you guys try and guess which answer was actually mine. It's kind of like balderdash. And what you're trying to like, you know, they're all these fake answers, and you're trying to figure out what the right answer is, but you get points based on guessing the right answer or getting other people to guess for your answer. And it's, oh, that sounds like, fine. Oh, it's so fun, and it's a really great way to get to get to know people and to just deepen your relationships. So hot seat is the game, and it's


Monica James  1:00:29  
been some where do you get it?


Ethan Sawyer  1:00:30  
You can get a barn. I think I got a Barnes and Noble, okay, but I've seen it. I've seen it other places, and probably get it on Amazon too. So, but for those of you all listening, I'll, you know, post a link here in the show notes, and I'll post a link so you can get in touch with Monica if you've got questions, or if you want to work with her, because she's amazing at this, as you can tell. And I imagine you'll be getting some some calls, Monica. I've got an interview in two weeks or two days, so Well, thank you, Monica. Again, I'm just, I'm so excited to talk to you, and really grateful for this information. It's just, I feel like it's gonna help a ton of students.


Monica James  1:01:07  
Well, this was really fun. Thanks a lot for having me. And again, you


Ethan Sawyer  1:01:10  
can check everything out in the show notes, college, sa guy.com/podcast, we'll see you next time. That's the show. Thanks for listening, and don't forget to check out the show notes page for one ready for it, the checklist of strong character traits that Monica mentioned. Two Monica's list of commonly asked interview questions and three college essay guys, complete guide to the interview. Y'all. This is a 18 page PDF that I put together that'll walk you through everything and how to prepare for your interview, plus, it's got a fancy little workbook where you can record all your answers and feel really right and ready to go for your interview. That's at college essay guide.com/podcast if you haven't subscribed yet, what is wrong with you? I'm kidding. Do take a moment to subscribe. You can find out how to do that on the page that I just mentioned. Stay curious. You. I.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai