107: What I’ve Learned from Reading Over 10,000 College Essays

Ethan Sawyer  0:00  
Ethan, Hello, friends. This is Ethan Sawyer, the College Essay Guy. And if you've heard the podcast before, you know my goal here is to bring more ease, joy and purpose into the college application process. How do I do that on this podcast? Well, I interview some of the most brilliant minds in the college admissions world, analyze their genius, ask them probing questions, and then try and break down what they're doing into practical, actionable steps that you can take, whether you're helping someone else apply to college or applying to college yourself. So this episode's special because it's an interview with somebody that I consider to be one of my heroes of the college admissions world. His experience is so deep and so varied. He's got so much knowledge about so many different aspects of College Counseling that if there were like a master college counselor designation, he would have received it. He's in the Hall of Fame of college admissions. That'll embarrass him. He spent 28 years in the Office of Admissions at the University of Virginia. Pause for a second. 28 years, think about that, and I'll give you his longer bio in just a second. His name is Park Muth, and during our conversation, we cover, among other things, what Park has learned reading over 10,000 college essays. We'll go behind the scenes and look at how close decisions are sometimes made by committees at highly selective universities, and why your essay could matter even more as a result, I'll ask Park what he wrote his college essay about is he's got this great 10% rule for when students should and shouldn't write about their activities or achievements. We talk about what an authentic voice is and why, contrary to popular wisdom, we maybe shouldn't be encouraging students to write in it. What he says about that may surprise you, and he and I are totally on the same page here, some do's and don'ts for the why us essay, including the one thing that he feels students should definitely do but most don't actually do, and why Park believes his job is better than being a king. I'm excited for this one. Please enjoy my interview with Park Muth. My guest today is Park Muth. He is one of the most well known and well respected counselors in America. He's kind of one of my heroes. I might embarrass him by saying that, but he spent 28 years in the Office of Admissions at the University of Virginia as Associate Dean, Director of publications, Director of Marketing, Director of selection and recruitment of honor scholars, application, assessment, training, international admission. Kind of did it all there. He's a highly sought after industry speaker, and he's often asked, you know, to speak at events and to serve as an expert the College Board, the overseas association of admissions counselors, now known as the International Association of College admissions counselors. NACAC, the National Association of foreign student advisors. He's been, you know, quoted or interviewed in or by the New York Times, Washington Post, Forbes, us, News and World Report. It just goes on and on NBC, CCTV in China. He's also prolific. I know this is a long bio, but I wanted you all to know all about park or at least you know, hear some of what he's been doing. He's been named a top writer on Quora, not just the last year, but for the last four years. And his answers have gotten over 2 million views. He's been really busy with his blog only connect, which is amazing. I'll say. We'll probably talk more about it in a little bit, but you guys have to check this out. And he works one on one students as an advisor and consultant. Park. I am honored and excited that you're on the show. Welcome.


Parke Muth  3:38  
Well, I'm not sure how I can follow that, other than to say, well, you're one of my heroes, so when you have mutual admiration society here, but it's also the reason I have all that stuff is I'm old, and that helps.


You're always


good when you add things, and


Ethan Sawyer  3:59  
maybe you kind of worked hard, and maybe you're really smart, and maybe you really care about this work, right? These are all other maybe possibilities. But I like, I like your version. I think it's funny. Tell me, Mark, what does it take to become a top writer on Quora?


Parke Muth  4:15  
Well, I think there's, like, a super secret selection process. I mean, there are some people that are in charge of that that make those selections, but you can't, I don't think they're nominees, per se. If you're a top writer, there are some venues where you can nominate some people. But I was shocked the first year. I mean, I didn't, I didn't even know it existed. So, you know, I can say I wasn't going after that, because I didn't know it existed. But now I sort of feel like, well, if I had it last year, I want to get it this year,


Ethan Sawyer  4:54  
right? Are you, did you? Is it change anything like, do you sort of like, in the morning, do you go, well, I should probably put my core. Our time in or, you know, is it, is it something that you're like, Well, yeah, I guess if you didn't get it, you know, if you're getting four years in a row, you'd kind of wonder, right?


Parke Muth  5:08  
Yeah, and there are a lot of people, they get kind of ornery. They're like, what? What didn't I do right this year? And so, yeah, there's some of that. So if you contribute a lot and you're an expert in one particular area, I think that helps, because there's some people that just answer everything in every category, but I'm sort of, you know, in the specific area of admission and education, and so that's what I'm known for, and what people sort of value that, as far as my work, and


Ethan Sawyer  5:44  
yet, within this, what we'll call a specific area of admissions or education, like, there's so much that that you and I'll speak to the audience for a second, there's so much that Park is a specialist in and is an expert in. And when, when I was, you know, when I'd asked him to come on the show, I said we could talk about so many different things, you know, give me some ideas. What do you think? And, you know, I was like, here are some things that I think and what we've landed on. And so, just to set context for the podcast, is, I want to talk to you about essays, because Park has read maybe more essays than anybody, and so I want to, wouldn't you say that's maybe true, I'm not sure, than anybody who's read, who's read more essays than you? Well,


Parke Muth  6:23  
let's see Fred Hargadon, who is at Princeton forever, and him is he? You know, usually, if you're the dean, you see things later on in the process, but he'd get up really early in the morning and he'd look at everything. I mean, he's just a legend, so Fred probably wins the prize on


Ethan Sawyer  6:46  
that. Okay, so one person, Fred, for instance. So we got the number two, most read most anyway. My point here is that Park has read so many essays, and he's got a lot of really wonderful and smart things to say about, I don't know, no pressure, but a lot of, let me say this, you've got some opinions on what makes for a great essay, and how to, how to certainly screw it up. And so we're going to spend some time here at the start, and I'm going to, you know, we're going to talk essays, and then we're going to shift and we're going to talk about, honestly, whatever else we feel like talking about. I'm going to kind of let Park take lead, but I've got a bunch of questions here, so let's jump right in. First question. You've, you know, we love the Malcolm Gladwell thing, right? 10,000 hours? Well, it could be that you've read 10,000 essays. Would you say that's true? Absolutely. Okay, so Park is an essay genius, or at least an essay reading genius, he's read enough. So what have you learned? This is kind of an open ended one. What have you learned reading over 10,000 essays? Well, that's a big question. I know


Parke Muth  7:52  
it is, and I guess one of the things I've learned is, if you read that much, your eyes go so I'm getting blinder every year. But what you get to see shifts in what I guess one would call common discourse, that what people were writing about 15 years ago, there were a lot of things that came up that don't come up now. I mean, there are the traditional, sort of cliche things that people write about, but I think if people could use deep data, you could see the words that are used today that are different, and that's been, I mean, it's also what keeps it from getting ultimately really boring. I mean, that there are these differences that come out. And in part, it's the demographics have changed. I mean, now there are people from all over the world, all over the US, looking at schools in lots of different places than they looked at 10 or 15 years ago.


Ethan Sawyer  9:01  
What was different about reading essays when you were on the admission side versus now being on the, you know, the side where you're helping students with essays. What was different in your experience, like, even in your like, this is a weird way to put it, but like, your interactions with essays, and this is kind of, I don't know, does that, does that ping anything for you? Yeah,


Parke Muth  9:19  
definitely. So if you're reading, and you know, especially if this is going to be a close decision for whatever reason, then you read this essay and you really like it. So then you become an advocate, and that, in part, could be by what you write about the essay, or it could be in the committee, where it's in front of people, and you're in charge of essentially presenting that particular case. So you're much more of an, you know, an advocate, and you learn how to try. To advocate for these things, you don't go overboard, but you get emotionally involved in a way that when you're trying to help students write their essays, I don't end up saying, you know, oh, you You're perfect for this school, because I don't believe anyone's perfect for any school, or that there's one right school for anybody. So I guess I don't get as involved in some ways emotionally. I mean, I love the kids, but I don't. It doesn't become almost a contest. I mean, there's a part of it. Can I? Can I sway these people, if I get up and I start talking about this kid, are they all going to vote for them? And there's something competitive. Set context.


Ethan Sawyer  10:46  
Sorry, to cut you off, but just to set context, like when you're talking about advocating for a student or committee, you know, for students who are listening, who may not know what you're talking about, are you saying that you guys would, you would get in a room with some people, and you would like advocate for particular students based on their essays,


Parke Muth  11:02  
not just on their essays, their overall application. And those are the close cases.


Ethan Sawyer  11:09  
Yeah, set us. Set that up for us, like, put us inside that room. What is that? What is that experience like? You know, just so we can kind of be a fly on the wall.


Parke Muth  11:17  
Well, first, you can think of this as kind of a funnel. You know, you've got a lot coming in who, some of whom are great, and you want to recruit them, and there are others you don't want to recruit them, and they're they just haven't prepared themselves well for a highly selective university. But the closest decisions are the ones where we had a committee, where it was depending on the year, got bigger every year, but maybe 10 to 20 different people sitting in a room. And in part, they are teachable moments, because you can't committee 30,000 people. It's just not possible. But you can committee some people, and some of the smaller liberal arts schools committee virtually everybody. And that means you're you're going to have to summarize a student very quickly in a few minutes, and then people are going to vote, and the writing is certainly one of the things, because the numbers are self evident. You don't have to say, Oh, this guy has 1450 it's, you know, that's sitting right there in front of you, or their GPA. You have to say, Well, I really liked it when he talked about x. Or did you see what he did last summer when he was doing research, or you did this service, or whatever it is that you think stands out about that particular applicant.


Ethan Sawyer  12:48  
And I'm just curious, like, it was logistics, like, is the vote like a raise of hands? Or, do you guys, like, did they do, like, marbles? Or


Parke Muth  12:54  
it was so then interesting, if you have a great person, you could, you know, you're like, really, at the end of the meeting, why didn't that guy, I love that,


Ethan Sawyer  13:07  
right? What's it's coming up for me is, like, the, you know, the old film, 12 Angry Man, in this case, people, where you're in a room and you've got to, like, you know, come to a decision on these students, and so, you know, what can what do you tell based on this experience that you've had? Like, what advice do you give to students about this? Like, how can they help prepare you potential or admissions officer, potential advocate for, you know, for voting for them. Basically, like, what can they do in their essays or even in their application to to win votes?


Parke Muth  13:40  
Well, there are lots of different theories on this. One of them is, would you want to have sort of a consistent set of points that you can make? For example, you've got a stem kid who has done research in labs. The last two summers, they've taken math classes through edX. They have participated in whatever math contests, American mathematics contests, or whatever Physics Olympiad all kinds of things. So some people would call that a spike or a pointy kind of student. And in one sense, if you, if you have two or three minutes to present somebody, in some ways, it's, some people think easier to do a pointy one, because they you say, well, there's this and this and this and this. So here's what this kid's going to bring. Now, there are other people that say, well, then they become sort of one sided. And is that really what you want? Do they really do? They do anything for the community? Or are they totally focused on it's all about me kind of thing. I mean, there's not a right answer to this, but I would say being able to summarize different kinds of students is a skill. And I guess I would tell kids, you need to think that what is it about you that would lead somebody to become an advocate. And I tell students this all the time. I have never argued for a number like, wow, did you see that S A T? Wow. That kid must be great, right? Whereas I would say that about an essay, or I would say that you know about activities,


Ethan Sawyer  15:43  
right? Are there any just like, insider, like, cool moments that you had in those rooms where you saw something maybe seemingly small, or something that you wouldn't think make a big difference, actually made a big difference in one of those committee conversations, just like, a quick story of like, well, there was one time this one kid, that kind of thing.


Parke Muth  16:07  
Well, I think, I mean, I can't think of any little thing. I think there are moments where you have the AHA, moments where you, you're hearing this and, okay, they've they come from, you know, a high a great suburb, and they're attending a great high school, and everything would say, privilege, privilege, privilege. And then you find out at some point, you know, they're living in an apartment in this town, and in some ways it's even harder, because they're snap, you know, right there in the middle of this sort of privilege. But they're not that, but they're not saying, poor me. It's you. Just someone brought it up in the address, wow. You know, just mom and this student, and they're living in an apartment, you know, they're, they're not jetting off for spring breaks. A lot of places.


Ethan Sawyer  17:16  
That's interesting. What I'm hearing you say is that there might be, from a distance, a certain narrative that goes a certain way, and yet there could be certain things that seem to or details or facts about that person's life that could contradict that narrative or to add complexity to that. And that seems to me, is where the essay could really matter. To give that context, I


Parke Muth  17:38  
agree with that 100% I mean, I do think the more you read, the more you start to have synaptic ruts where you're like, Okay, I've seen this. Yeah, yeah, really. I mean, then you stop, and it sort of wakes you up, and you say, okay, maybe I wasn't quite understanding what was going on here, right, right? That's, that's what makes this fun, because it, if there wasn't that, it would be kind of a soul deadening process.


Ethan Sawyer  18:16  
What are some of the best essays, or the most memorable essays that you've ever read, which ones have really stuck in your mind after doing this for over three decades? Need I remind you?


Parke Muth  18:27  
So I mean, I get asked this question a lot, not surprisingly, and I almost always say, when people say, What's your favorite movie? I'll say, Well, I like the first 15 minutes of Saving Private Ryan or apocalypse. Now, there are other things. There are other movies that I like the middle, and there are other movies I like the end and whatever. I don't think I have one and some of these essays, I just think they have great hooks. In other words, they just draw you in. One of my favorite is I sat in the back of the police car, you know, I, I challenge anyone not to read the next sentence. And, you know, Grandma started in about the rats again today, the six foot ones. Wow. Yeah, that's a and it's so interesting, because that entire essay is sort of like that, this incredibly poetic, beautiful, crazy set of images. And she ended up coming to the school I worked at, and she won all sorts of prizes, and now has a couple books out, and that's, you know, that doesn't happen very often, but there are some people, they just knock your socks off, and you're like this, this kid has, has what it takes. And I would write those kids that was. Some of the most fun I had, I would write and say, you know, I've read a lot of stuff, but, you know, you kick butt. I don't think I'd say it that way, but would you say you're that's very impressive. And would you mind if I ever used your essay in a workshop or anything? And a lot of these people, they're just so pleased. They're like, really, you actually read these things? You know, I'm so flattered, and it's something they remember forever. Yeah, and


Ethan Sawyer  20:31  
interestingly, I've never had a student that I've asked in that way say no, like, you know, it tends to be when you when you ask students, say, Yeah, sure. Would you say that you in terms of hooks? Do you? Is this something that you push for with your students now, where you encourage it, where you even say to them, you got to have a great opener?


Parke Muth  20:50  
No, I don't. My explanation is the pyramid theory that you start at the tip of the pyramid and move out the other way of saying that a guy who was a great poet, Donald justice, when I took his class, and he would say, you have to earn your abstractions. In other words, you want to start us out in the world, rather than start us out in metaphysics. You want to start us in a moment and maybe move away from that, but that's not most people do the funnel stuff. They start in the general and maybe they'll get around to the particular. But I think it's when, if you just look at biology, you know that if you're sitting in a chair eight hours a day, for months at a time, you are looking for something to grab you. Now, it doesn't have to be a one sentence dramatic thing, but it does, I think, help to have something together in a first paragraph that's fairly focused and concrete, rather than, you know, I want to save humanity.


Ethan Sawyer  22:02  
I love the this. You've got to earn your abstractions, and it reminds me of great writing classes that I took in college. Are these you said, I that you say this. Are these phrases that you'll use with your students. Do you feel like your part of your job is teaching them writing? Absolutely


Parke Muth  22:18  
no. I mean, that's how I I say, I don't care where you go to school, at the end of this, you're going to be fine. Everyone ends up some blazing. Are usually pretty darn happy where they go. So I'm not about where you go to school. I'm going to try and teach you stuff that when you get there, you're going to be a better student, and that's going to be writing and thinking and networking and just being able to talk on the things you care about. So that's I just had a lot of fun with some of these kids. And God bless them, some of them, they work so hard. I mean, compared to what I was in high school, I was such a slacker, and I feel terrible, you know, saying, Well, you've got to get on top of this. I'm like, What was I doing? I don't think I was doing that. I


Ethan Sawyer  23:10  
am so with you, you know. And I'll sometimes tell them that, like, later in the process, and I'll say, by the way, this, I'm being totally hypocritical, because I wasn't this way, but I now see the value in it to go back to that then, just because I I've never asked you this, and I'm really curious, do you what was your process like when you were going through high school? Do you remember what you wrote your college essay about?


Parke Muth  23:35  
So I took myself way too seriously, and I was just going into, I want to be a dark poet. So I was, I mean, I was balancing that, because I was also an athlete, but I was, I tried to get both those out there. So I I was writing about how writing changes us and how words matter. So I really haven't gone that far away from that, but I I have more fun than I did back then. I have to say, but let's


Ethan Sawyer  24:15  
say that you and you played a few different sports, right?


Parke Muth  24:18  
Well, I was a, I, yeah, but I was, I was recruited for track and went on to do that in college. If you


Ethan Sawyer  24:27  
were to write a track essay today, let's say you're, you know, the 17 year old, yet you know what you know, and you're applying to college, and you were, you were sort of like, okay, I'm going to write a track essay. This is a tough question to like, spring on you. But like, how would you write an essay? And I'm kind of asking, like, how would you write a sports essay that wouldn't sound like all the other you know, track essays or football essays, like, how would you approach that?


Parke Muth  24:54  
I mean, that's a great question, because there's so many people, I mean, the United States, kids of. Other parts of the world, they'll get this. But sports are huge, and your your value among your peer group, in to some degree, will depend on if you have a great talent in sports. You're like golden walking around in a school. That's just, it's a reality. And so there is that. Now, I guess if I was looking back, so when I was in high school, I mean, I went to a good I was in one of those nice high schools and a nice neighborhood and all that stuff. And there were these guys I was competing against that weren't in that. And there was a guy who, after the season ended. I mean, I was, I just have to say, I was afraid of him. Why was I afraid of him? Well, he ended up playing for the New York Jets. So he was this very big, strong, cut out of marble guy, and I was this very skinny, tall guy, but I, you know, I could, I could compete with him, but he was very well known. I mean, he was a superstar in football, and I was pretty good in track. Anyway, he, he contacted me to come to, like this pool we had in our town. And I was like, wow, he he likes me. I mean, I just didn't even think a guy who was, you know, getting recruited at every college in the country and was this big superstar. But there was a part of him that he felt, you know, wow, he lives in this pretty cool place, and I'd love to do this. So it was a great cultural bridge in some ways.


Ethan Sawyer  26:52  
So you would, if you had to write a track essay, you would write more about this relationship. I'm getting something about the connection there. I mean, what I'd be curious. I


Parke Muth  27:02  
mean, because, I mean beating, losing the big race, winning the big race. I mean, I mean, maybe you can do that in 650 words is a really interesting way, but it's pretty damn hard. I mean, I I mean, I think of another guy, he'd never lost a race, and then I beat him and then he quit. I mean, it was like, That's how serious people are about sports in America. I guess I would never just make it about whatever. I won the big race, or I didn't win the big race, and, yeah, just that's in your little world. I mean, I was competing at a high level, but it's still a little bubble. And you get away from that, I mean, now I can look back and say, Wow, that that really wasn't that big a deal.


Ethan Sawyer  27:57  
And so in what cases do you advise students like, you know, say a student is a figure skater and is, you know, nationally ranked and has that on the resume, is that then box checked, and therefore, maybe don't deal with that in the essay. Or in what circumstances do you advise students to talk about the big, obvious, we'll call it a hook that's already present their application. And in which cases do you say we've got that already? Let's do something else.


Parke Muth  28:25  
So this is one of my other rules that I tell people. It's the 10% rule. Are you? Are you in the top 10% of this activity? If you are, then you might want to talk about it. Or maybe even if you're in the bottom 10% you might want to talk about it. But if you're just sort of in the middle, you're in that bell curve of there's nothing special. I mean, you mentioned this skating, so I'll bring this out. There was this kid who she was going for. It was like the Olympic trials and skating, and she was on the ice, and this other, these other people were also working on their moves this and that there was a couple and one guy threw the girl up, and she fell, and her her skate cut right through this person's thigh. And that was the end of her skating career. And that was pretty dramatic, because she was, this was the Olympic trial, so it was kind of a big deal. So that is kind of dramatic. So if this is what I tell people, if you're trying to come up with a story I never heard, good luck, because if you've read 10,000 stories, you're going to hear. You know, people that have negotiated for their parents release from the jungles of a country, people that have climbed nine of the 12 tallest mountains. I mean, that's not what you're trying to do. You're trying to focus. On something you know well, rather than the big game or the big this, because you're big, more often than not, isn't that big?


Ethan Sawyer  30:12  
How do you start an essay process with a student?


Parke Muth  30:16  
So I tell students, we're just going to chat. And this sounds made up, but it's really true. So this guy yesterday wrote me that he got into this favored school Ed two yesterday, and he was very excited, but he's like, you know, it seems like such a long time ago that, you know, when we first talked, I said I was interested in history, and then we started talking about history. And, you know, we went back to the Greeks and we talked about China, and we went all over the place, and then I started to think about how I would want to talk about the history of my city, and anyway, he went through, this guy went through so many drafts. He wanted it absolutely perfect. But, I mean, we just, we get on topic. So I try and just chat away. I'm kind of chatty, and I'm dangerous enough that I've read widely, if not deeply, in a lot of stuff. So if people mention something, I'll just say, Well, tell me a little more about that, or tell me a little more about that, and just talk for a while. And then I'll just say, Well, why don't you just write that down? And maybe the first time we're just chatting away. And other times we find I just can. I would like to think I'm accurate in this that I can feel when I've hit the goal. You know, there's just something, the voice, the expression, the movement. I just look at that and say, Okay, we're going to explore that. That's not automatically going to be where we end up, but that's certainly going to be one place we're going to start. So I like to that's one of the reasons why I like to either talk directly or Skype or something, because it's we do communicate, not just with the written word, but our gestures and intonations and all these things have some effect. And trying to gather that and then put that in the essay is kind of a challenge, but I just feel like, God, I just love talking to these kids. I mean, if you get them on something they like, they just can't wait to talk about it.


Ethan Sawyer  32:45  
Is there, I wonder, as you've thought about this, when you envision your role, is there some kind of a way that you envision it, or some kind of metaphor when you think about, you know, the way we interact is like blank, you know, is there some way that you've described that to people before.


Parke Muth  33:04  
I mean, different students have come up with a variety of things, anything, no, no one's ever called me and you know, you're such a jerk. But I mean, I ask a lot of questions. So, I mean, I we talk about, I am interested in philosophy, and taught that. So people say, Well, yeah, you're kind of like, can I call you Socrates? I'm like, Yeah, sure. You


Ethan Sawyer  33:30  
don't immediately jump in and said, Well, what does that mean to you? Ask them some question. Like, yeah, I'm all about that. Yeah. You don't follow up with the question immediately. No.


Parke Muth  33:39  
I'm like, I have a T shirt that says, you know, Socrates sort of undermining the morals of youth for 2000 years. So I don't think I'm really doing that, but I I am going to challenge people for sure. At some point I'm going to say, well, I don't agree. Here's why. Tell me I'm wrong, convince me and get them and well, actually, there are some people I will not do that with. If someone is bright and confident, I will do that all the time, and that gets fun. But there are some people you don't want to do that too. It's sort of like being a coach. There's some people who get motivated by, you know, come on, you're not doing your best out there. And there are other people you want to say, come on. Guy, yeah, you know, buck up. Get in there and do the job. I don't think being I don't think there's one right approach, because these students have very different personalities and backgrounds.


Ethan Sawyer  34:46  
I want to ask you a question that you've been asked probably a lot of times before, and it's something that we've kind of talked about already, but I want to know from in your perspective, and feel free to answer this in a way you've answered it before, or to make up a new answer on the spot here, but Park. How much do essays really matter? So


Parke Muth  35:03  
then I'm going to go back to the 10% rule. I mean, it's not it's the bell curve of life in that if a student passes through the first door, and now I'm talking about highly selected schools, and the first door is primarily numeric. Do they have a really strong academic program? Do they have good grades? Is there testing in their typical profile? Then they're through door number one, and to get through the next door is for some people, going to be their activities. For some people, it just might be their background. For some people, it's going to be their essay. If schools use interviews, it could be their interview. I mean, they're they're different things. So, you know, I'll just tell people right out, probably 80% of the people, it doesn't make much of a difference, because it's just, it's a it's fine, it's not good, it's not bad, it's it's an essay. And then there are people, when they knock your socks off, you want to say, you know, I want this voice in our class. I want this person. I can hear them, and I hope that they would consider coming to our school and doing what they do, but that's there aren't many people that can do that any more than there aren't that many people that get recruited for division one athletics, or a lot of people that play sports, but not many can play at a division one level. And there are a lot of everyone's writing essays, but you know, if you can, you play in a division one of essays? If you can, then that's going to be a huge deal.


Ethan Sawyer  36:59  
Can you it does Absolutely. Can you think of any examples of students who wrote their way into a school?


Parke Muth  37:11  
Yeah, I mean, kind of, sort of, I mean, you can't. You don't want to bring somebody in where they are just, they don't, they're not ready for a very highly selective school now. What do I mean by that is they've just, they should go someplace else first and settle some and these sometimes are the most creative people, but they just they haven't done what they're supposed to do in stuff they don't like. And so that usually shows up on a transcript in areas where you just see God, this is, you know, because you have to pick from among a huge group of very qualified people. So when you see one of these kids who comes across sometimes it's a story. I mean, there was a kid last year, and I'm pretty I mean, I wasn't in the committee, but I'm pretty darn certain she wrote about how her mother broke into her room and took all the money out of her piggy bank, and they had no money. And she was a really good student, but normally the school she got into would not have accepted her. So that's what I would call content based stories. On the other hand, there are some that are just so beautifully written, like this. This person is a poet, and given my background, I'm probably more on that side, just because I don't think we see as many of those that are just absolutely remarkably good. One of my all time favorite essays. It starts out the woman wanted breasts, that just that essay was so good. And I we may have talked about this before, but I'm going to bring it up again. So this essay, he ended up coming to the school I worked at, and he after in his fourth year, there was a very famous professor that wrote an article in Harper's about college students that said, basically, they work hard, but they don't have a passion. But like any generalization, there are always exceptions, and here's one of them, and it was the same kid in his a very different essay. Anyway, he's now a professor in literature, but if he hadn't written what he'd written, he wouldn't have gotten in


Ethan Sawyer  39:59  
Mark. I'd love to talk a. Little bit about your blog. So first of all, I'm curious, why did you start the blog? And the bigger and perhaps more difficult question, why do you write a blog at all?


Parke Muth  40:10  
So that's a really good question, and I'm trying to think about that over the years that I've been writing it, one thing that's different is that I made a conscious effort. I have no connection to my business on my blog. In other words, you can't find out what I really do for a living, because there's part of me that just wants to talk about the things that I think I know a little bit about, and I think I have more credibility if it's not covered with ads or other things. And I feel like I'm in a position where I can do that, where I can try and give away for free, some of the stuff that I know, and if people want to find out more than they can Google me or whatever. But I just feel like I've earned a little more credibility when people first go to it and say, Wow, okay, that's interesting, or that's I'm surprised someone would say that, or whatever, and I just feel like I have more freedom to do what I want by not having it connected in Some way with what I do in order to feed myself, basically, right?


Ethan Sawyer  41:25  
And at this point, you know when you think about and it could be, this could be a philosophical answer, or just sort of, I don't know, a soul searching answer, but what? Why keep a blog at all?


Parke Muth  41:38  
Well, I'm a blabber mouth that helps, and I read stuff, and I just feel like I need to say something at times, because I think there's a lot of people that talk about various issues related to admission and education, and I sometimes raise questions about it. Sometimes I try and provide answers. I'd say, if I have a strength that's more raising questions than it is providing answers to some of these questions that really don't have answers, and to open up the dialog more, and it allows me to learn a lot. I mean, that's one of the things I've learned by posting things among educators and admissions people, is what they have to say, in many cases, different than what I was thinking or what I thought was the way things are. And that's been an incredible education for me.


Ethan Sawyer  42:39  
I really see that through your work, and it's something that I really admire and love about just the way that you engage with folks online. And there's a there's a real openness, you know, one of the ways that I think the blog does that really well is through these essay tests, you know, and maybe actually, you should explain what it is. What are these essay tests that you post? And why do they? Why do you post them.


Parke Muth  43:01  
So the essay tests are essentially an essay that a student has written for colleges and universities, and I, I just posted up there and say, this student wrote this for a college or university. Then I post the essay, and then I have questions, and my first question is always, what would you rate this essay? One through Five rate it and tell me why, and depending on the essay, I will then bring up some issues that are related to the essay that might help other people think about how they would approach writing, and not even just the college essay, but writing in general, for example, is this writer male or female? Does that make a difference? Would that alter your understanding if a student was writing in a second language? How much leeway should we give to a student whose first language is not English? What are our expectations about how to be creative, or how to be informative, or how to be both? Anyway, I ask a lot of different questions, but another question I ask every single time is, would you like this person as a roommate? Because a lot of people don't think about, how are they going to fit into the community? And there's a part that that should be, since so many people talk about fit, that should be a part of the evaluation process. In the holistic admission is, how are they going to contribute, but also fit into the community?


Ethan Sawyer  44:47  
What are some of the biggest you've hit on a couple of them, but I'm just curious if you can think of one or two of some of the biggest surprises that you've had in terms of responses to particular essays, and whether it's a particular essay. Sort of like something that you're continually surprised by.


Parke Muth  45:05  
I'd say one of the biggest surprises is just how diverse the reactions are to some of these essays. And I guess I didn't mention before, is that I don't say where these kids got in, so I just say they apply to college. And there have been some essays that I just thought were remarkable in every way, shape or form. And then when I've posted them on some of these forums, that they've gotten ripped to shreds by a number of people, and then I'll, I mean, I haven't gone back and said, Well, just so, you know, you know, this guy got into Stanford, or this guy, you know, got into a school, and now he's a professor of literature. I mean, these are all true. I'm not making this up. And so it's but then I'm like, Well, are they wrong and I'm right? That's what I always that's my go to, you know, I must be right and they're wrong. But then I'm thinking, Okay, why is why would they say that? And part of it is, I'm a writer of sorts, and I got an MFA and all that kind of stuff, and I taught literature, but I like edgy stuff, David Foster Wallace, or TS Eliot's wasteland, or whatever it happens to be, that isn't the typical good narrative. And then I have to say, well, who's reading these essays first, and a lot of them are relatively young people that took a couple literature classes in college, but they they don't like David Foster Wallace, or they don't like TS Eliot. They like more traditional narratives. And you know, Stephen King is a good writer. John Grisham is a good writer. They're not what I would choose right off the bat, but if they're seeing this isn't communicating in a way that most people communicate, then that could be a negative to them. So I have to, I have to understand that that's that's a real part of this process, and I'll bring this up. I know this is probably politically incorrect, but I'll do it anyway. So last week, there was a essay that went up from a student who got into all the IVs, and I thought the essay was phenomenally good. And someone reacted to it saying, well, it wasn't that good. It wouldn't be like a big thing for this person to get in their school where they had worked for eight years, because it did not address deficiencies or problems, and that that tells me, and I brought this up before, it didn't fulfill the Statue of Liberty theory, meaning it wasn't Give us your tired, you're poor, you're huddled masses, although it, I mean, it is a first generation immigrant, but it, there's an there are some people that have the expectation that these stories need to be compelling in some way, that you've overcome something,


Ethan Sawyer  48:37  
right? It's to borrow a phrase from me into the wasteland. It's, I don't suppose there's any possibility of shanti. Shanti Shanti the piece that passeth understanding. I think some things will kind of always be contentious. Tell me in terms of one of the things I loved that you brought up recently in one of the forums that we're both a part of, is this notion of authentic voice, which comes up so often, and you know, I just hear that again and again. It's got to be in the student's authentic voice. It's got to be in the authentic voice. What does that mean to you? And do you feel like students should be encouraged to use it if they can?


Parke Muth  49:16  
So yeah, I think you and I are kind of on the same page on this one. But I mean, I was influenced by this guy named krauf, I guess, who's a famous teacher at Iowa, and his book is called The made up self. And I, I mean, it's a wonderful book because he's taught writing at Iowa, which is known as the best writing program in the US for many, many years. But, I mean, he just talks about how there isn't one self, or there's a self that you make up. I mean, there's a fictional element of the self that you write about in any. The thing you're writing, even though it's non fiction. I mean, you're putting your best self forward, or at least that's the hope that you would in an essay. And it's not, you know, when you're sitting around watching the entire, the entirety of friends, which actually a student told me she did recently. I mean, all eight seasons, that's what she did for spring break. It's like, wow, that's that's probably not what you want to write your essay. So there are, I mean, you want to bring up things in your essay that are going to help you stand out, rather than what you just sort of sit around and doing when no one's watching. So I think, and we have different voices. I mean, I you can write a great intellectual essay, or you could write a very funny essay, and you can write all these things, and you can be the same person. And I just, I think at that age where you're 16, 1718, you should be trying on voices. You should be taking these things for a ride. I mean, a great poet, Mark strand, who was one of my teachers, he always said that what makes a good writer is the ability to play with voices. It's not that you're trying to be deep or profound, that you like playing with words. And I sort of agree with him on that. Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  51:29  
this is going to be too many waistline references, but what's in my head is he do the police in different voices from that same thing? So yeah,


Parke Muth  51:37  
I agree 100% I mean, that's I quote that a lot too. But that also goes to the question, you know, that was the original title the wasteland. And the wasteland was a giant mess at the beginning, until Elliot said Ezra Pound and pound edited the hell out of it, and he made it into a great poll.


Ethan Sawyer  52:03  
Well, let's talk about that. So that segues beautifully. What in your mind, and I know this is, you'll probably have different answers for this, but how much help should students get during their college application or college essay writing process?


Parke Muth  52:16  
So there's some people that think, you know, it's the kids essay. They shouldn't get any help, really. I mean, they should maybe get a little feedback, but read the basic things that say you write and you rewrite and you have a thesis and all that other stuff. But I don't agree with that. I think I mean to go back to the wasteland. I mean, it was a giant mess. It was this huge thing, you can buy the facsimile edition. And he sent a desert pound, and cut tons of it, including the title, and made it into, I mean, it's as much his poem, which is why Eliot dedicates it to him and says il miglior fabro, which is from Dante the better craftsman. And that's if you send something off to the New Yorker, they have editors. You know, it's not like this is cheating. This is what writers do. They ask for feedback. Now, the question is, how far down that line do you go? I mean, do you they editor? Do you say, Okay, you need to think about this, or this is the wrong word, or I don't understand what you're saying. I, I think in those cases, that's, that's pretty okay. But to be able to say, I, I rewrote this paragraph, what do you think you know that's, that's, you know, you've gone down that line. But I don't think you can absolutely say, Okay, this is inbounds and out of bounds. Like, if you have a kid who's again, first language is in English, or is coming from an environment where you know their parents didn't go to college and their school system is not great. I think you've got to give a little more feedback than you would, maybe with some of these other kids, just in terms of grammar or idiom or just the basic things of writing. And I don't think that's cheating. On the other hand, it's going to affect that student's voice in a way that some people might not be comfortable with. Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  54:29  
there's a great quote from Ann Bogart, the great director, who talked about a choice being a violent act, like when you make a choice, that's kind of an act of violence. And it's an interesting way of thinking about the start of the process, because when it comes to helping a student pick a topic like there, we're having a huge impact. And I'm curious in terms of when you're helping students, you know, pick their topics. You mentioned you're interested in the riskier stuff, how you know, how much will you encourage them to. Explore the different parts of themselves. And this is another way of asking, you know, is there, are there some topics that are off limits, or does it get to a point where the sharing is sort of too much? What are your What are your takes on that?


Parke Muth  55:16  
Well, that I could be here for three hours on that one because it's such a large topic, and I think, yeah, well, the one there are topics you shouldn't write about, and those are the ones that are, if you write, I'm just going to come out and say it how you love Donald Trump, you are in deep trouble. Why? Because look who are the people in admission offices? There aren't many Trump supporters. I don't think I've met one, actually. So if you wrote about how you did all this great work during the presidential campaign and everything else, we'd like to say we're open minded, but the brain, brain science says you're not. And if some if that just comes across as, Wow, that guy's just wrong headed. So that advice about don't talk about religion and politics and stuff. I mean, if it's the right politics, if it's the right religion, then maybe you can, but you have to be very careful, and you have to know a little bit more about how. I mean, you basically have to know what your audience consists of. That's not, I mean, that's what people teach you in writing one on one, who is your audience. So you got to do that. But as far as edgy stuff, I mean, I, what I do is I just tell these people, we just chat. I mean, we're just and, you know, I have a list of stuff they've done. I'm like, tell me a little bit about this and that, blah, blah, blah, and we'll just be chatting. And then I'll just, I'll just hear that. There's the volume changes, the timber of the voice changes, and I can see, okay, you're really interested in I mean, this is from last week. I mean, she, it said she liked small animals. I'm like, tell me, like, what is that? So it turns out she, she raises tarantulas, wow. And I'm like, Whoa. What? I'm like, that's the, as far as I can tell, you'll be the only one. I'm not saying you have to write about that, but that's kind of cool. You have nine tarantulas in your room. And she's like, Yeah, when I'm gone away, I don't know where it is. Do you sleep anyway? I mean, but she didn't think that could be an essay. She would think, you know, people are gonna think I'm really weird. Maybe some people will, but that's, that's who you are. I mean, why do you want to talk about bands and humanity to man, when you're spending an hour or two playing with your spiders, right? That's you should be writing about what you know, and that's one thing in in a lot of ways, it sounds counter imaginative to write about what you know, but ultimately, there's nothing new under the sun, and that's a quote from the Bible from 2000 years ago. So if it was true, then it's true now. And so instead of trying to come up with something absolutely different, you should be writing about what you know in a way that comes across as authentic to your experience, not the authentic voice, which we addressed before. You


Ethan Sawyer  58:51  
know, I what I'll say when I was hearing you say that I was when you kind of, you're, you're listening for, what is the topic, the way that I was thinking of it before you actually mentioned this girl was sort of like, well, there's the spidey sense that we have as counselors, and it's never been more appropriate than that example. That's


Speaker 1  59:08  
great. I didn't think of that, but no, now I'll never forget


Ethan Sawyer  59:14  
that. And in some sense, too, we're just like, you know, it seems like you're just following what's interesting to you and mirroring that back to the students. Like, Oh, that sounds cool. But of course, that, you know, is informed by your entire life and your experience in this world. So it's a, you know, it's, it's intuitive, but, but extremely well informed. So, but then it's, you know, on the surface, it can kind of look simple, like all you're doing is just asking questions and just chatting. But of course, it's high level chatting. You know,


Parke Muth  59:44  
you haven't heard my chats, but I don't know if that's always true, but we generally have fun. I will say that, what


Ethan Sawyer  59:52  
are some of the riskier topics that you've seen actually work really well. So where students really push the limits in terms of, you know, maybe it felt like. High wire act like you thought, Ooh, I don't know if this is going to go so well. And then it actually ended up turning out Okay,


Parke Muth  1:00:06  
so I'm going to go at both ends of the spectrum. So there was a guy last year he wrote, I mean, he had to write several essays because he was applying these highly selective schools, and one of them was about the death of his grandfather, and the other was about his service work. And if you read what never to write about, those are like in the top three. They might even be number one and number two. So in some sense, it was incredibly risky for him to do this, because everyone says they're the kiss of death, because, yes, somebody has died, and you're sad, and you've learned from that. And isn't that great? I mean, there's that cynicism, or, you know, it's poverty tourism you went into. I mean, he'd done three years of service in this very rural place. He just wrote beautifully. And I told them, This is a risk. You know you're but if you, if you do it well, then you're going to stand out dramatically. So he's finishing his first year at Princeton, which tells you how much common wisdom gets you about what you should and should not write about. But I mean, at the other end of this. I mean, this, this kid who wrote about his family portrait. It just, and it's, it's so dark and so funny and just, you know, it started out, starts out the woman wanted breasts, and then it moves on into even a little more risque than that, but then it's how we all sell ourselves, and this family portrait they're getting taken is how they're selling themselves to the world. But when that camera isn't on them, they're not this happy go lucky, smiling family, and some people might think that's too dark or something, but I just thought it was incredibly well done. And I mean, some people have written things that are way over the top, I mean, things that don't work, they'll throw in a lot of the F bombs to be outrageous, and that's not, I mean, that's been done so many times, and it's not being outrageous is different than taking a risk. And I think some people get those things confused.


Ethan Sawyer  1:02:42  
We discussed this a few weeks back, but I didn't quite ask you in this way, how many great essays about horses or horse riding Have you read so


Parke Muth  1:02:52  
well, I know I have at least one, and it's I have it on an essay test, but I mean love of animals, love of horses. I mean the problem with the horse one is, and this is another hot button issue, is that you are automatically placed in a very bad category, which is you are totally privileged. And there's a woman who's just released a book about this, saying that that's the new if you're any conversation that happens on media now, when it devolves into name calling, sooner or later, you're going to get called privileged, and that's as bad as it gets. Now, I think that's obviously hyperbolic, but there is, right now, there is a meme going on across the country, if not the world, that if you are privileged, you don't recognize what the world is really like, and that you've had advantages that other people haven't, and for some people, that's a negative. So if you're out there, you know, with your very fancy horse, go, I mean, horses cost a lot. There's just no getting around it. And so then it's seen as, Wow, you're chatting off to these things with your little horsey, and isn't that cute? And so, so


Ethan Sawyer  1:04:23  
what do you tell students, like, do you, if you see a horse essay come up, do you? What do you? What do you say to him? And you know, I'm speaking of horses now in sort of the larger context, when you see something that speaks of privilege, perhaps, or that might speak of privilege. How do you couch that for students? Is it sort of like, is it a hard No, or is it sort of like,


Parke Muth  1:04:41  
hard no? I said you, you have to realize that there are going to be people that the second you say you've been riding for all these years, and you go to all these things and you're really passionate about your horse, that that you're going to be judged. Just that's not going to stand out. I mean, I know. I mean, I know enough people and who do these things, and if you really understand the time commitment and the distance, I mean, it takes so long to get from one place to the other, I mean, they're putting in these tremendous amounts of hours. And okay, it does cost a lot of money, but it's not, it's not their fault. I mean, it's a they're learning skills that are transferable. It's not just they're walking around saying, gee, I'm great. I mean, it's, it's a dangerous sport, it's hard. I mean, it's so there are a lot of things that I I think people bring to certain kinds of activities and say, this one isn't, I don't like this kid, honestly. And I just heard that. So I haven't I'm not just making that up. I've heard that, and that's something people have to be aware of whether it's a horse or whether it's going off to these exotic third world countries for a week to do service, or some other things that clearly put you in a in the 1% Group, right? So


Ethan Sawyer  1:06:17  
I want to talk about something that's near and dear to my heart, and it's the why us essay. And for those who don't know what I'm talking about, you know, basically there are, there's a supplemental essay that many schools, particularly highly selective schools, will ask. And there are many reasons why they asked for this, but you know, they want to know, basically, why do you want to attend our school? And so Park, I want to get your take on these. And I want to particularly start with some of the don'ts like, what are some of the What are you tired of seeing when it comes to these why us essays? What should students steer clear of?


Parke Muth  1:06:49  
Well, you'd think someone would have told them this, but the people that say, I love your school because it's got a very high ranking that's like nails on a blackboard to people. I mean, it just is like, Oh, God, I can't believe they said that. I mean, it's just that's not a reason any admissions officer wants to hear. I mean, I have to say it's not like they don't advertise they have great rankings. They just don't want to hear that. That's the reason you want to go. They so, I mean, so looking at the things that are basic, you know, the schools in a big city, you know, I love New York, well, that's great, but it's, I mean, okay, you love New York, but that's not really gonna convince somebody who lives in New York why you should be at their school? So there, there are some typical things that people, you know, maybe I'm wrong about this, but I bet they've heard Duke basketball a lot. You know, I think I


Ethan Sawyer  1:08:00  
can't wait to be a Cameron crazy. You think that's a couple of


Parke Muth  1:08:04  
been in one or two essays. I mean, so Well, is it not like they're wrong, but it's just like that's that's not going to make you stand out. And as a


Ethan Sawyer  1:08:13  
Carolina fan, I'll just say that that's nails on the chalkboard for me, by the way. So what are some what are some, what about some more creative takes? What are some, you know, students, you know, examples, if you can think of any off the top of your head that really jumped out at you and you thought, okay, that's that's a way that, you know, the contents there, but maybe they're doing it in kind of a different or creative way.


Parke Muth  1:08:35  
Well, some have taken on the voice of their now, a third or fourth year student, or there are they've graduated, and they're back for a union or something, and they're just talking about the cool stuff they did, as opposed to the cool stuff there they could do. So it's kind of a fictional thing. And it reminds me a little bit of the UPenn essay that they took off maybe 810, years ago, which is, write page 325, of your autobiography. And so they're asking you to be creative in some ways to make up something about yourself that reveals something. And I think these people that say, Okay, well, you know, I, I was on the volleyball team when we lost to x school and blah, blah, blah. I mean, I don't want to give examples, because then everyone's going to run and say, That's what I should be talking about on one of these essays. And that's, that's one of the problems. You keep telling people be specific, specific, specific, and then, if I'm specific, then they take that as the answer, you know. Now they're going to be spider essays, you know, coming out left field. Old because i They say, Oh, well, I should write about that, right? Not a spider, than about birds or moths or whatever it is.


Ethan Sawyer  1:10:07  
Heard it on a podcast once, right? Yeah, it's totally funny. It's totally true. I mean, it's, it's funny how, and by the way, the note B specific is the note that I give, if I could just, and I will sometimes just copy and paste that at different points through why us essays, as I'm hoping students edit these. You know, get more specific, but what is, what advice do you give students like, what would you say is your best advice when it comes to writing or even preparing to write the Y us essay?


Parke Muth  1:10:36  
So instead of just saying, Okay, I love biology or I love math, or I love physics, and you have a really good department, then what I advise students to do is, if that really is your passion, then you should be reaching out to that school now. And if you've done something interesting in that field, if you've done research, you did an internship, or even if you've just read an article in something that was written by one of their faculty members, then write an email and show that you're interested. You're not writing to say, you know, help me into the school. You're just saying, wow, you know, I'm interested in your article, or I'm interested in your class or and here's the question I have now, does that work? Well, depends on what you mean by work. I've just seen that a lot of students who do actually have real things to talk about. Have gotten wonderful responses from some professors. I mean, big time professors, famous, fame. I mean, the last guy, he had 15,000 citations in physics, and, you know, he opened up his door when this student was going to visit for this particular school. Now she also didn't get responses back from a bunch of other schools she was interested in, and that's that's how it goes. But that, in and of itself, that tells you something about the school, their faculty, or at least that one, wasn't that responsive to a well thought out question about their particular field. And when you're thinking about fit, and everyone says, you know, we devote so much time to our students and our faculty are accessible, and you've taken the time to write a good question, and you're not asking them to do a whole lot except sort of respond to a good question. But they don't do that. That's, you know, even though it has a really high ranking, doesn't that say something about accessibility to faculty. So it goes beyond what the books and other things have to say. And then at the back end, if you, if you develop a mentor before you even attend the school, then day one, I'm gonna say, stop by my office and, you know, and so if you're filling out the why us and you say, Well, I've been emailing Professor X for the last two months, and he said that, you know, I couldn't get involved In the research he's doing on why as early as my second year. In other words, it's about as concrete and specific as you can possibly get. And it doesn't just have to be stem stuff. I mean, there are lots of other things that you could contact people about, and if you have a background in it, rather than just, oh, I'm going to write that down and I'll write this guy. I mean, generally speaking, they're going to want to see like the student I'm talking about, I couldn't even understand 90% of what she said to this other guy who's this physics God. I mean, it sounded pretty smart to me. But, I mean, I so he knew that this, she was the real deal,


Ethan Sawyer  1:14:06  
and it sounds like this can be a pretty involved process. So I'm curious if you can just give students a sense of what they're in for with this y s essay, because I imagine some of them are thinking that they could probably knock it out in a night. What's your sense about how long in terms of whether you want to think of it in terms of drafts or hours? You know, if you had to ballpark it, how long does it take to write a great yssa, I mean, I know the answer is going to be, it'll vary. But what's, what's your sense of it?


Parke Muth  1:14:32  
Yeah, it is going to vary in part by what is the student bringing to it. For example, a student that is writing about the conversation they're having as they're walking across the campus with a student that they actually name as they go into a particular place to see a particular thing. And again, I'm being abstract, because I don't want to name it, because then people think that's the right thing. I mean, in some ways, if you, if you really know what you're what you're getting into, because you've visited, you've talked with students and other things, then it's more a matter of mapping out those things for those who, for whatever reason, haven't been able to visit or they don't know students there, I think they've got to do a lot more research at the front end to be able to say, okay, get beyond the web page. Get beyond you know, the first few iterations of their why they're a great school, and start to dig a little deeper. I mean, to find professors, you have to go beyond anything the admission office really has on its pages. So you're going to have to go beyond that. I need to look on the student newspapers, you know, look up there and you can see what issues they're talking about on campus, is that something? If you demonstrate that, you say, Wow, this year I saw that there was a very big issue about whether they should cut sports at this school in order to save money or whatever. I mean, it just means you're aware of what's going on on campus. But that's so that's going to take some hours if you're really going to come up with things that are specific to that school, a lot of people want to cut and paste because I can't blame them. You're applying all these schools, and they're asking why us. On the other hand, we always talk about fit, fit, fit, and if all you know is the basic stuff that you get in an information session, then I don't know the fit. I don't really know that you know that much about fit, right?


Ethan Sawyer  1:16:50  
I've got one more question for you, but before I get to it, I want to do this little thing called show and tell, which is when I ask my guests to just share something that either a resource or just something that you found interesting in the last little while, and it could be college admission related or not, but Park What have you got for show and tell today?


Parke Muth  1:17:12  
Well, I just recently got back from a trip to Shanghai, where I was there for a couple weeks talking with students and just blabbing about a lot of stuff. And when people say how hard things are now in schools in the US with so much pressure and testing and otherwise, I mean that that's true, but at the same time, you know, we've wanted globalization, and now we have it. And you know, these kids, they, they are working so hard. And I some of these kids, they, it just sort of breaks my heart how hard these kids are working. They have no time. They are doing so much to try to learn English, to be able to do things aside from just study in their very competitive schools. And I, I think there's a recognition on the part of people that, yes, there's more stress, but there isn't as much of a recognition that that is. It's not just admission. It's jobs. It's, if you want to be in, you know, investment banking, you've got to go through nine interviews minimum. I mean, you've got to have a certain GPA. I mean, it's, it's, life is harder if you are reaching for the brass ring. And so it's not you have to decide. I mean, it doesn't mean your lights ruined, but if that those are some of your goals, then it's not surprising that in order to get there, you're going to have to make some choices that are going to be pretty tough, because you're competing against really good people who are willing to put in the time and effort to be successful. So that's that's kind of depressing, but I mean, it isn't. I mean to the kids, a lot of these kids, they're just wonderful. I mean, they're under a lot of stress, but they're not. I mean, they like to learn, and that's something. What else is different about that? Like, it's so funny over there, when I'll say, What's the best way to get into Stanford, they'll be like, I don't know, do research, whatever. And then the really smart ones say sports, like bingo. I mean, that's odd that in other places around the world, they don't understand that at all, is that, you know, athletics is such a big part of the Undergraduate Admission experience, in some ways, because having that talent is seen as very valuable to a lot of schools.


Ethan Sawyer  1:19:59  
Yeah. Right? My my show and tell is related to this. Why us? Thing that I mentioned, mentioned, I wrote a little blog post that I'll link to in the show notes, connected to how students can demonstrate to schools that they've done their research, but not just focused on the school. Have you know actively gone through a process of searching themselves and figuring out what they've got to offer a school. So I'll link to that below Park. Here's my last question. Why do you do what you do?


Parke Muth  1:20:31  
I mean, that's another really good question. It's sort of a trick question, because I, I mean, I could be pragmatic and say I do it because it's there like a mountain. I don't know I do what I do, because I think I have the best job in the world I really do. I mean, every single day I get up and I look at my schedule and I'll say, Wow, okay, I've got to go to this place and talk with this person. I mean, I'll just go through a couple things the last day or so, this wonderful student who she just became the drum major of her school, and she's excited about that, but she also wants engineering, and I get to talk about all these schools and opportunities, and then Late at night or early in the morning, because time differences. I mean, I had this great discussion last night with this kid on philosophy and myths, and we were talking about and then we got into religion. We were saying, Okay, if you believe in Zeus, they think you're crazy now, but you know, that's a good story. Are the religions today good stories, or are they not? I mean, that's what we talked about. And you know, she's gonna be applying for schools next year, and we had a spirited debate on this. And here I am sitting in this little, nice town that I live in, talking to this lively person from China about different cultures and different belief systems, and who in the world could have done that 20 years ago, nobody. I mean, we just didn't have Skype, and we didn't have all these things. And, you know, I, I have the luck to be able to know people in a lot of different places, and they like to think about stuff, and I like to blab about stuff. And so we, I feel like I'm a, you know, I have a better life than any almost King would have had in their lifetime. I see more stuff, I talk to more people. I get to go places that even if they were a king, they didn't have that opportunity. You know, no matter how much stuff they had, they didn't have the ability to interact with people from such different backgrounds and circumstances and that, I mean, you couldn't I always say this, I could never pay for the education I get from just interacting with people. So that's that's why I love my job.


Ethan Sawyer  1:23:17  
I couldn't agree more. And I just want to say thank you for all that you've contributed to my education,


Parke Muth  1:23:24  
and you've contributed mightily to mine. That's that's the other good thing about having people in a profession. It's not just me talking with a student in Singapore or wherever. I mean, it's interacting with people all over the US and the world who are educators, who care about their kids, and they're passionate about this, and I learn a tremendous amount from them, too. And you're certainly you. I mean, you're a rock star. Everybody loves you, so I feel like I'm lucky to have the chance to talk to you. Well, I appreciate


Ethan Sawyer  1:23:57  
that. It's kind of funny to imagine a rock star like college admissions dude, I'm not sure if he wears glasses and a bow tie or not, but anyway, Park, thank you again. I so appreciate your time.


Parke Muth  1:24:08  
Well, Ethan, thank you, and I hope we'll get a chance to talk again later. Absolutely.


Ethan Sawyer  1:24:16  
That's the episode. Thanks for listening. Be sure to check out the show notes, where you'll get a link to Park's blog so you can read more about what's going on in his brain. And I'll also share a link to my three part guide on how to write that. Darn why us? Essay. That's it. As always. Stay here. It is. You.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai