512: Navigating Mental Health Disclosures in the College Application: The Counselor Perspective

Show Notes

Welcome to our special three-part series on mental health disclosures in college applications.  To kick things off, Ethan interviews Chris Loo, Director of College Counseling at The Stony Brook School, where Chris has been working to help students navigate mental health disclosures in their applications for years. In this episode, they explore:

• Which student populations does Chris see struggle with mental health challenges?

• When to disclose mental health issues and when it might not be necessary

• How and where in their applications students can disclose, from their additional info section to the counselor recommendation letter to the personal statement

• Advice for counselors and an exploration of the question: “Are we discussing this too much?”

This episode is informed by conversations with many admission officers over the years and by direct work with students. If you’d like to hear from an admission officer directly, check out episode two in this series with Christina Lopez, Dean of Enrollment Management at Barnard College, and episode three with Emi Nietfeld, who discusses what it was like to navigate mental health disclosures from the student perspective.

Chris Loo immigrated from South Korea at the age of 5 with her parents. She graduated from the University of Pennsylvania with a B.A. in American History and received her Masters in Clinical Social Work. She has also worked as a music teacher, a campus chaplain and a mental health counselor at a refugee resettlement organization. She also serves as a board director for the National Association of College Admission Counselors (NACAC). 
We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Play-by-Play

• 2:24 – Chris’ background in mental health and college counseling

• 6:11 – Should students disclose mental health challenges in their college application?

• 10:20 – What questions can students ask themselves to help decide?

• 15:08 – What is the Additional Information section and how could it be used to disclose mental health challenges?

• 17:20 – Chris and Ethan review an example disclosure from the Additional Information section

• 24:06 – What information could be shared through the counselor letter of recommendation?

• 24:42 – Chris shares a sample counselor letter example 

• 34:33 – Ethan reads a personal statement sample where a student chose to disclose 

• 47:15 – What is the role of the counselor in this process for students?

• 54:44 – Are we talking about mental health too much? 

• 57:27 – Closing thoughts for students and families

Resources

• Blog post inspired by this episode: Should I Discuss Mental Health in My Personal Statement or College Application? (And If So, How)?

• How to Use the Common App Additional Information Section: Guide + Examples

• CEG Podcast Episode 507: What Colleges Want (Part 7A): Recommendation Letter Crash Course for Students and Families

• CEG Podcast Episode 508: What Colleges Want (Part 7B): Recommendation Letter Crash Courses for Counselors and Teachers

• NYTimes Article: Are We Talking Too Much About Mental Health?

Show transcript

Ethan Sawyer  0:08  
Chris, Hi friends and welcome to a special three part podcast series looking at mental health disclosures in the college application process. To kick things off, I'm interviewing Chris Liu who is the Director of College Counseling at the Stony Brook school and holds a Master's in clinical social work. Chris has been working for more than 15 years helping students navigate mental health disclosures in their college applications. And in this episode, we start off by exploring which student populations does Chris see struggling with mental health challenges in particular, what are some situations where a student may want to disclose, and situations where a student may not need to disclose. And we get into some practical questions that you can ask if you're a student thinking about disclosing in your application. Then we get into the practical nuts and bolts of how and where in the college application a student can disclose, and that includes the Additional Information section. We analyze some counselor recommendation letters that Chris wrote, and then we talk about the personal statement. What are some do's and don'ts there? We wrap with advice for counselors, and we even get into the question of, are we discussing this meaning mental health too much? You'll find all the examples that we analyze in our comprehensive guide linked in the show notes at college sa guy.com/podcast now this conversation was informed by conversations that Chris and I have had with college admission officers and lots of students over the years. But if you'd like to hear from an admission officer directly, don't forget to check out episode two in this series with Christina Lopez, who is the dean of Enrollment Management at Barnard College. And then in episode three, I sit down with Emmy netfeld, who discusses what it was like to navigate mental health disclosures from the student perspective. But first meet Chris Liu. Chris immigrated from South Korea at the age of five with her family, graduated from Penn with a BA in American history and got her master's in clinical social work. She's worked as a music teacher, a campus chaplain and a mental health counselor at a refugee resettlement organization. She's also a current Board Director for the National Association of college admission counselors. I hope you enjoy our conversation. You


Hi Chris, welcome to the podcast.


Chris Loo  2:27  
Hey, Ethan, great to be here. Thanks for having me today.


Ethan Sawyer  2:30  
Yeah, I really am feeling really grateful, Chris. I'd love for you to share a little about your background and how you enter into this conversation on mental health challenges with students.


Chris Loo  2:41  
I actually am a mental health counselor. I've always been interested in mental health, you know, and helping people really to have good mental health, but also to remove some of the stigmas and to be able to talk about that. And so I kind of fell into college counseling, but I really find that my mental health counseling training has come in really handy and has helped students through the application process, especially as they are dealing with issues of stress throughout the process, and also just kind of how to show up in that process.


Ethan Sawyer  3:18  
Yeah, I'd love to hear based on your perspective working with students in the high school setting, who do you see struggling with mental health challenges?


Chris Loo  3:29  
Yeah. I mean, as we know, especially after we came out of COVID, there was definitely an increased incidence of mental health struggles in adolescents. I think we saw, you know, across high schools, really, across the country, as we were coming out of the pandemic. But I would say that as we're kind of returning to normalcy, there are definitely some particular populations. I would say that they are probably struggling more with mental health challenges. One, it's just the high achieving student who has never failed, and so I think that's sort of the trigger, right? The first failure for a student that can sometimes bring on mental health challenges. I would also say that students from dysfunctional families, and these are students that may come from hyper attached families where they're really not either from the student or parent side, where they're not able to have healthy boundaries, we also see increased incidents of mental health and broken families students who are from single parent families, or where there's been abuse and dysfunction. And so I would also say that it does seem like women are struggling more with mental health. I think that's really born out from statistics, actually, especially coming out of COVID. And then, of course, we have marginalized students, you know, students of color and students from who identify as LGBTQ. And so I. Would say that those are some of the populations that we are definitely seeing with increased mental health issues. One of the things, though, that we know, also we've noticed is sort of the intersectionality of these factors really putting students at greater risk. And so I, you know, I can even talk about my own experience actually, Ethan being a woman and being an Asian American female, I think in the community that I grew up in, there was just a lot of stigma about discussing mental health. As you know, you know, in a lot of Asian American families, there is that model minority myth, right, that we are always high achieving and that we just kind of, you know, keep working. And so I think that when students are living in the intersectionality of two or more of these identifiers, they're definitely at an increased risk of struggling with a mental health challenge.


Ethan Sawyer  5:58  
So the theme of this episode, and one of the things I want to explore with you, Chris, as a counselor, and somebody who's worked with students for years in navigating mental health disclosures, is the practical considerations of first whether or not to disclose, and then, if so, how to do it. So let me just hit you with the bold question of, should a student disclose mental health challenges in their college application, and maybe you could share, like, what are some situations? Maybe this is a more nuanced question. What are some situations where a student may want to disclose, and what are some situations where a student may not need to disclose?


Chris Loo  6:38  
Yeah, it would be great if I could just say, like it's a yes or no answer, Ethan, but you know, I think actually, fortunately, the answer to that is maybe, and it depends you definitely want to be working with students and families in their own individual situations to be able to answer this question of, Should the student disclose the mental health challenge. And so I would say that the first situation where I would say, yes, let's think about disclosing the mental health challenge is actually academic. If I see that a student's grades are significantly disrupted, you know, for instance, there's a huge GPA disparity between, say, ninth and 10th grade or 10th or 11th grade, I would say that yes, at some in somewhere in that application, that student may want to disclose that there was a mental health challenge. I would also say that if the transcript or application might kind of indicate that there was something going on that that may need some explaining. So for example, if a student took a semester away from school to attend an inpatient facility, or maybe there's just a lot of switching of high schools on that transcript, and it may not be so obvious to the admissions person about why all that was going on, I think that that's really significant, and that may be a compelling reason to disclose a mental health challenge, but there definitely are situations where a student may not need to disclose the mental health challenge. One is, you know, there actually isn't a disruption in that student's grades, even though the counselor may know that there was a mental health challenge, but it would not be apparent from the transcript that there was any disruption at all. And so secondly, if the diagnosis of that mental health challenge is relatively recent and the student really hasn't had time to really process the experience, and so, you know in the application, it's not going to show up as this is what I've been facing, and this is what I've done and what I've learned to a college that may be too new and too raw for a student to be able to put it in that context. And finally, if a student describes a mental health challenge in the Additional Information section, you know, and that description as it's written raises more questions than it answers. That may be a reason for the student not to disclose actually, the mental health challenge.


Ethan Sawyer  9:13  
Yeah, I've certainly seen that situation over the years. The last one you're describing, where a student will write about a thing, and they'll write about it kind of in ambiguous terms, and the mind of the reader goes, whoa. What happened? An example that I give sometimes is like a student saying something like, when I was 12 years old, I underwent something that no child should have to undergo, and it's like, oh my gosh. Our brain goes wild with the possibilities, you know, and our imagination can just go wild. So certainly, it seems like in those situations, you we want to encourage a student to either tweak it so that it is more connected to like specifics that answer rather than raise questions. Maybe even what I'm hearing you say is like they may not have to put it in there at all.


Chris Loo  9:56  
Yeah, and in so in some student situations that I've worked but. If you know, we certainly were mindful of the fact that the student had mental health challenges, and we wanted to be able to, you know, make sure the student felt seen and they were heard and understood, but that maybe the college application was not right, the place where they were going to disclose and and share about it.


Ethan Sawyer  10:20  
So great. I want to get to that point in just a second. I'd love to hear, what are some, maybe two or three different, I don't know, questions or considerations that students should keep in mind if they're considering disclosing.


Chris Loo  10:34  
Yeah, I think the first question, I would say is, as a student is thinking about, how is the admission person reading my application? The question that you know, I would ask is, Does my application make complete sense without the mention of my mental health challenges, or do I think that the admissions person might kind of pause and ask themselves, what happened here, you know, as they are reading my application, particularly on the academic side. And so if the answer to the question of, does the application make complete sense without the mention of it, is no, then let's talk about, you know, how do we help you to put in the mental health challenge in the application in a way that the student is and the family is really comfortable. I would say, from the student side, I often ask students, do you feel that you have presented yourself completely in your application? You know, do you feel like you've really shown up? Or are you comfortable with everything that's in the application? And so sometimes Ethan, I think that students will answer that question and say, I feel really good about the application, even without the mention of my mental health, but I can tell that it's something that is so important to that student, right? And so there are definitely times where we've talked about other ways for that student to really find the voice to talk about the mental health, but not in the application. For example, you know, do they want to talk with a therapist, a counselor, maybe a trusted teacher or a friend? Is that a way for them to kind of process the challenges that they've been through. The second example of this would be journaling, right writing about it really for their own process and self discovery, but not necessarily feeling like that. It has to show up in the application. So I do think that it is really important for students to process their mental health experience and challenges. But I think the important question is, is the application, the way that you know, the place where they want to be able to do that?


Ethan Sawyer  12:49  
Yeah, what you're saying, I really want to underscore and say, so we're getting ready to shift into, like, the practical considerations of how to disclose if you, as a student, decide to, but I, later in the episode, I want to this is a side note to you counselors listening. We're going to talk about, what are some questions that we can ask a student who's coming forward with a disclosure, what are some questions we can ask them to like, to really just help them feel seen and to connect with them on the human level, before we get into sort of like the college counselor, you know, advice about the application level. Even though we're we are admittedly skipping that here. We're skipping that piece. We're going to come back to that later on. And I want to say also that I've been through these experiences that I think you're talking about where a student will start to write about it, and they'll write about it, and it's you sense that this is the first time that maybe they're processing this, this is their chance to be like, finally I can tell someone this, or finally I can put some words to this. And that's a really powerful moment. And so I want to, like, say to students, if you're listening to this, I want to encourage you to write about these things and set aside for the moment if you have some time, meaning, if you've got time before your applications are due. Is this going to be for my application or not? Like there's a value in processing your stuff through writing, there comes a point then where, later we decide, okay, is this the best way to show my skills, qualities, values? But I feel like that's such a valuable time in the in the in the processing and writing can be a beautiful way to do


Chris Loo  14:20  
that. I completely agree with you, Ethan, I think that sometimes right students have not found their voice yet in being able to talk about the mental health experience, and very often, what I find is that the words that they are writing is actually speaking for them, right in talking about that experience, and you're absolutely right. Sometimes the journaling, the writing, it is a very, very first time that they're processing it. And so, yeah, it takes a tremendous amount of courage, actually, to be able to put that to paper. But again, the question still remains, you know, is the college. Application the best place to do that? Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  15:03  
I'm nodding. I'm trying to nod audibly as you're saying that, so that people can hear me nodding. Okay, so let's get into the practicals. So if a student is considering disclosing the application, I think the first place that students think to go is personal statement. So I want to start with the Additional Information section, and maybe you can tell us what that section is, because some listeners may not know what that is, or that that section even exists. And then I want to read through an example disclosure that was from a real student, and then have you analyze it with me, and we can sort of see what what's working in that example. So maybe, just to set context for folks, will you just tell folks what the Additional Information section is? Or, and actually, let's there's another section called the education section, so maybe you could just tell folks briefly what those sections are.


Chris Loo  15:51  
Yeah, the Additional Information section on the on the common application, it literally is the last sort of section of that application. And it's just kind of a it's a blank space for students to just put whatever they want in their Ethan that they feel hasn't been covered in the rest of the application. So sometimes, if a student has more than 10 extracurricular activities, right, and they don't fit in the extracurricular activity section, I will advise them to put it in the Additional Information section. Sometimes, if they've had some health issues that will go in the Additional Information section, but it literally is exactly what it sounds like. It's just a section for them to put any additional information section that they haven't been able to talk about in the rest of the application and then the education section, it's just going to ask them about their current school, you know, how long they've been there. But then there's also a part of that section that says, Have you had any education disruption, right? And so they actually can click, yeah, that there's been some disruption. There's also a section in there where they'll ask if they've been to any other high schools, and if they have, they can click that, and what will automatically drop down is just tell us a little bit about what you've just clicked on. And so, yeah, tell us why you moved from your previous school, or tell us why there's been a disruption to your education.


Ethan Sawyer  17:20  
Perfect. And I want to look at an example, just like the one you're describing that a student wrote for an education section of the application. This could have just as well gone in the Additional Information section, and I'm going to read it aloud. And for those of you who are like, I can't process with just the audio, then don't worry. In the blog guide that's connected to this, it's in the show notes, we will put this example, and I want to name before I read it, that I think a structure that I think is useful here. First of all, I think it's important that people know you do not have to write a beautiful, poetic essay here. This is information, you know, keyword information, and you can bullet point this. And so the example here that I'm gonna be reading, it might sound like paragraphs, but it's actually bullet points. And the structure that I will sometimes suggest for students as they're thinking about this is one challenges, two negative effects. In other words, what were the impacts of the challenge on you? Three, turning point, if you had one, four, the positive things that I've done to get healthy, and then five, what I've learned were the positive effects. And broadly speaking, that's a structure that I recommend. When I was collecting, you know, examples for this from different counselors, it happened to pretty well correspond with that. So here's the example. I'm gonna read it aloud, and then I'd love to hear counting up from zero. What do you think is going well and then counting down from perfection? What? What advice would you have given to the student, maybe to improve what they wrote? So here it is. There's a little subheading that says, challenge. Oh, challenges overcome and strengths gained. And it reads like this throughout and we've changed the names and we've changed the school. Throughout my junior year at northwest high school, I struggled with severe stress and chronic anxiety as a result of my course load, six AP classes, music, sports and other extracurricular activities. By the spring, I was burned out, unable to sustain the pressure. So side note to the listener, there's the challenges and the negative effects. Ultimately, it was decided I would be more successful with completing high school away from home at a small residential school in Vermont, where I'd be able to focus on my mental health and well being. This shift in normalcy was initially extremely difficult. I struggled with missing the friends, family and my lifelong school community I'd left behind. So that's the turning point. However, with the support of my new teachers and peers, I slowly settled into the routine of my classes, easing into the new school and social environment. In the process of the personally tumultuous past year, I've learned how to prioritize my personal needs balanced alongside academic expectations, and so that's sort of what they've done. But. So as I progressed into my future, I'm ready to carry the many insights I've gained with newfound internal support and stability. So there's the what I've learned or the positive impacts. So let's start with what do you think is working well here, how do you think this potentially contributes to the application?


Chris Loo  20:17  
I think when it's working well is I definitely understand what has happened in this student's life, if on the transcript there is, you know, some switch in terms of high schools. Now I have some context about why the student switched high schools. I think the student has also done a good job of talking about the challenges and the negative effects. And so I think if I had, you know, just one piece of feedback for this student, I think I would have wanted to know a little bit more about the positive things they've done to get healthy, the positive effects, maybe just a little bit more specificity about that aspect of what the student has shared here?


Ethan Sawyer  21:00  
Yeah, I'm with you. There's a there's a little and this often happens in personal statements. When students are writing about challenges and effects in early drafts, sometimes it'll be a lot about challenges and effects, a little bit less on what they've done and what they've learned. And so I'm kind of, I'm using my hands in the air. I'm kind of doing like a squishing gesture, of like, can you squish the challenges and effects into, like, 1/3 give me a third on what you've done, and give me a third on what you've learned from the experience. And like, technically, like, concretely speaking, if you want to think of this as, like, six bullet points, it's like two bullet points on challenges and effects, two bullet points on what you've done, two bullet points on what you've learned. It can kind of give you a practical, almost like a word budget for thinking about that. And you can also just literally students listening like highlight and how much of my word budget goes to challenges and effects, how much of my word budget is what I learned or what I did, and then how much is what I learned. So 1/3 is a pretty good rule there. Yeah, I'm really with you there. There's a value in, you know, the additional info section, because it seems like that's a place where students can really, in some sense, have some control over the narrative, and, like, really get a sense of, give a sense of, here's what this meant to me. And in talking to admission officers, many will say, not only do they think that's okay, they actually, in some cases, prefer the that students put that in the Additional Info section. And I'd be curious to hear from your perspective to just, I don't know, theorize, but why do you think some college admission officers might even prefer that students put it in their additional info section?


Chris Loo  22:28  
Actually, interestingly enough, more from the student side actually, Ethan about the Additional Information section, I have found over the years that students actually feel safe in this space. The Additional Information section one, because I don't know, I think it looks just visually. It looks a little smaller to them, right? So they almost feel kind of like, yeah, I don't need to write, you know, a whole personal statement with 650 words I have found also, because it's a small space, students, my students will often, they will be more informational about it in that space. And I think even the fact that it's called additional information, Ethan it almost seems to give them that idea of this should be information, right? Like, I don't have to share all my feelings about what I've been through, right? And so I feel like just calling it that would sort of give students this suggestion that, hey, I'm just gonna put the facts about what I've been through right and what has happened to me, instead of a huge, you know, personal statement. And so I would think that from the college side, maybe it's helpful for, you know, admissions counselors, because they're not reading another personal statement. It's condensed from the student side about their experience, right?


Ethan Sawyer  23:52  
Yeah, I'm really with you there. It's not the only place, of course, where students can can talk about, you know, mental health challenges. But the reason I wanted to start with is I wanted students to know that, hey, this space exists. If you didn't know this exists, this is another option for you, another space that exists. So to move on to the second one is the counselor letter. So if you're new to this process, in many cases, your counselor will write a letter on your behalf. And not all cases, not every counselor writes a letter. Not every student has a counselor. But there is this option. And so I'd love to share read this that you wrote, actually, Chris, that you wrote on behalf of the student. And I would love to ask you, I'm going to read the first paragraph, and then let's analyze it and talk about why you wrote it, the way you wrote it, and what you think it, how you think it helps to contribute to the candidacy of the student. And then I'm going to read the second paragraph separately, and we'll look at that one. So I'll read this aloud to you all. This is part of a letter that Chris wrote. This is, I don't know, several paragraphs in. So it begins the word and and so while many here would identify Alan as a scholar and athlete, there are an equal number of people who would say that he's had a huge impact. Impact on the mental health of our community. This year, Allen is part of mental health matters, a group of students who work with our school counselors to support others who struggle with mental health issues and find ways to be proactive and bolster the mental health of our students. This group of students do more than almost any other student group on campus. They host yoga sessions, pass out acai bowls, hang up hammocks on campus in random places, host journaling sessions and bring in therapy dogs during especially stressful seasons of the year. In addition, these students are the feet on the ground in helping our administration identify students who are struggling. So before I read the second paragraph, I'd love to just pause and you know, what do you feel if you have to analyze this, what do you feel like this potentially, or what were you hoping that this would contribute to the student's application?


Chris Loo  25:49  
Well, first I want to say that whenever I write about student mental health, and you know, I definitely ask the student if this is something that they want me to talk about. And I also we work with families as well in making sure that everybody is on board. And so I think that, because this was such a big part of his identity and his involvement with us as a community member, I felt like it was really, really important for me to be able to write this about him and giving colleges some context about who he was in our school community. I think for me, it also felt like, you know, to your point, Ethan, right? It's what did he learn? What positive effects did he had? And for Alan, it was like struggling with mental health. He really wanted to be able to help other students who are struggling with the same issue.


Ethan Sawyer  26:41  
Yeah, I love the details here in terms of the practicals. Like, there are these little snippets, these images, I can see them, hosting the yoga sessions, passing out the ice ie balls. You know, I love these details because I think it really brings to life. And it's, it's beyond just the sort of, like he has done a lot on campus to support other students. It's like the specifics really help bring this to life. And they're they're short, they're really brief. It's not like a whole story. It's just like, here are a few details, which I really and I love the images. I love, also the way that you are showing the impact that he's having on the community. Because I think that's something that, if I'm an admission officer reading, I really want to know, is this student going to be somebody who's gonna make a positive difference on campus? And I already see that he's doing that he's comfortable with that. He's already taken action. Beautiful. So here's the second paragraph, and this is the one that came right after it in the letter. It is no accident that he's given so much leadership to this team. He's passionate about speaking up about mental health, because he has had his own struggles with it. The pandemic was really challenging for Alan, deeply social by nature, remote learning was terrible for him. He suffered from insomnia, and there were days when he just couldn't get up for class. But with counseling and support, his light has returned. What he's learned from life's hard lessons has enabled him to be the support others need. So same question, what do you feel like this paragraph contributes to the admission officers, you know, contextual understanding of of who this this applicant is?


Chris Loo  28:10  
Yeah, I think for me and for Alan, this was really the paragraph of why he's doing all that he's doing on campus. We certainly have students actually, who are part of the our student mental health team, you know, who are just very concerned about the mental health of their peers, and who are involved in those ways. I think for Alan, I felt like you know more than anything, this kind of revealed his heart about why he has been so impactful, and why he's given so much, I think it's no real secret Ethan that when we go through something personal, it's it's that much more important to us, right? And so I think that's where this strength of sort of support groups come from, like and when people tell their story about what they've been through, there's something about it that people really kind of resonate with when they know that you've been through something that they're struggling with. And so I just kind of wanted to share his heart with the admissions people that he's not just a kid that you know cares about mental health, he's actually somebody who's been through it, taken on that challenge, and then wanted to really move in the direction of healing for others. That's really who he was. And is actually, yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  29:32  
yeah. I think that if I were to look at this, there's, there's a version of it that goes, well, you know, there's, a, there's a there's a counselor. In my head going, well, we could just include that first paragraph and we could delete that second paragraph, and it would be fine, quote, unquote. In other words, you know what the admission officer wants to know is, who is he going to be on campus? But I think you're right that there is some dimension here to the second part of it that does bring in, as you're saying, the heart, the. Personal. And I guess for folks listening this is there's not going to be an easy answer for this, but how do folks think about whether to include the personal or not? Because, as you'll see the in the blog guide that we there's going to be some supplemental essays where we will show examples from students who chose to just talk about, for example, the external stuff that they did and doesn't include necessarily the personal How would you advise students to think about this, or even counselors to think about this as they're trying to decide whether or not to include these more personal elements?


Chris Loo  30:31  
I guess one thing is to consider is just the length of the counselor letter. You know, if it's really getting super long, maybe you know, and the counselor feels like that first paragraph has given enough insight about the student and who they are. I think for me, questions I ask is, you know, has a school, can they identify the student's values, right and character through that first paragraph? And, you know, for me and Alan, I just felt like this was so much a part of who he was that I did feel compelled to put in this second paragraph. But I certainly think that, you know, if, if he, if the student, reads that first paragraph and thinks, yes, there's enough of a mention of mental health, right, the college knows that I'm really involved. I'm somebody on campus who's going to want to continue to be involved and maybe do these kinds of things. I think you could probably eliminate that second paragraph, Ethan. The bottom line for me is that second paragraph is the why to his what.


Ethan Sawyer  31:38  
Totally, totally. It does certainly give context. And I want to, I hope people listening will will sense that there isn't like a perfect way to do this, but we wanted to give you, we want to give examples so that you can kind of hear and decide for yourself what really makes sense. Because this is a really personal decision, you know, and there's no like perfect thing. It's not like, if you do X, you will engineer y outcome. It's this combination of like, you know, feeling seen and heard, because this is a personal statement, and also making sure that you're doing the job of the application, which is to demonstrate skills, qualities, values, what kind of community member you're going to be, right? So this is one of those more art than science moments. So like I mentioned, there's going to be some in the blog guide, some supplemental essay examples where students chose to disclose there. I think, in my experience, at least it's it's been less common over the last 20 years, students disclosing in supplemental essays, but it's certainly possible. But I want to turn to the personal statement a little bit, because I think this is where students tend to go when they think about disclosing and talk about, okay, if you do decide you don't want to disclose in your additional info section, don't want to disclose in the counselor letter you do want to disclose in the personal statement. How do you do it? Before I get to a quick side note question, curiosity. Because what did the student do? You remember what Alan ended up writing the personal statement about?


Chris Loo  32:57  
Yeah, actually, he ended up writing about his mental health challenges, interesting and so, you know, again, this isn't for every student, but I would say for him, it was so much a part of his core identity and what he really wanted to share with colleges that it ended up being part of my counselor letter, and it also showed up in His personal statement.


Ethan Sawyer  33:21  
And what I'll say to you who are listening is there's no again, there's no perfect way to do this. Another student could have written about something else in their additional info, or sorry in their personal statement, something that you and I have talked about, Chris for students will be like, I want it to appear in this part of the application, but not this part of the application. And there are situations where it could appear in both. It could be that your counselor writes about this and you decide to do your own version of it for the additional info. You know, we I call that selective redundancy, where you decide you know what I want to make sure that they understand my take on it too. And that's and that can be okay too.


Chris Loo  33:54  
I also just want to say one more thing, Ethan, please. Well, I want to just recognize that, you know, students are in all kinds of different high schools and different situations. And so, you know, I work at a small school where I really get to know my students, and I can write with this much specificity, but that's not the case for, you know, all of our students. And so I think, you know, if a student especially feels like they don't know their counselor as well. You know that might be another reason to actually move that to the Additional Information section, where it's going to give that student more agency. That's a


Ethan Sawyer  34:31  
great point. Thanks for naming that. So I want to read a personal statement where a student chose to disclose and let's analyze it. Let's talk about it. We've changed the names in all of these like I said, the essay begins with a bit of dialog. Sarah, smack her for me. She deserves it. Shock and confusion colored my face. Milliseconds later, anger consumed me. How could my own Grammy want me to commit such a violent act? Act to my mother, to her own daughter, my mother had finally stood up for me against my Grammy had finally decided to protect my mental health, and because of that, we were in this situation because my mother valued me for once, with tears running down my face, hyperventilating, I found myself petrified and spiteful. My Grammy wasn't always a bad person. As her life progressed, so did her memory loss, along with its complications, unfortunately, she became verbally abusive and outright offensive with time. Even though I loved my Grammy, I used to envy her my mother, who spent hours each day caring for Grammy so that she didn't have to live in a nursing home, was treated poorly by Grammy, and yet my mother prioritized my Grammy's health over my mental health. As my mother's daughter, I couldn't help feeling like I wasn't valued in my own family. To make matters worse, I had to fight depression, ADHD anxiety and severe sleep apnea in a household that insisted children don't experience these things, each instance exacerbated the next, causing a big clump of problems. So pause side note, just to note that this is so far the challenges and effects, which we'll come back and discuss in just a minute. During my lowest point, I was admitted to the hospital, but this was where my story truly metamorphosed. I grasped that my life had meaning and purpose. I realized how much I missed my parents, my old life, and just being happy after my parents drove an entire six hours one way just to see me in person for 15 minutes, I also realized my parents felt the same way about me. Their effort meant the world to me, which was why when I left the hospital, I was determined to complete my studies, mend the bonds I have with my parents, and try my best to better myself. This was my first step towards happiness, and I can honestly say that I didn't let it fade away. And this is, by the way, the transition from what I call like the turning point to the here's the what I did about it. Section. For starters, my psychiatrist and I, after four tireless years, perfected the medication formula I take each day alongside medication. I've been lucky enough to have worked with three therapists who have all heard my story and discussed with me ways to regulate my emotions and understand myself more, while breathing techniques and other meditation esque things don't work for me because they make me lose sight of the bigger picture at play, I've been able to develop my own techniques to help me calm down during distressing situations. Just a side note, here's where she's kind of transitioning from the what I did about it to the what I learned my parents and I now value and listen to each other's experiences, which reiterates that we want what's best for one another. I no longer sugar coat things and place the blame on myself for things that were out of my control, and my parents do the same. Through this shared vulnerability, I feel as though it is safe to talk to them about everything that happened, validating our experiences and learning more about each other in the process, working with and learning from therapists, I've been able to significantly change the relationship dynamic between not only my parents and me, but between my friends and me, finding two communities to call home. I use my voice to check in with my support group before starting conversations with them, to make sure they have the mental capacity to listen. Now, when thinking about Grammy's final months, I'm not filled with bitterness, but rather empathy and understanding. I choose to remember the good times I had with her. I'm thankful for these experiences, because they've pushed me to accept both life's beauty and cruelty. One day, I hope to use various types of animation to raise awareness about others mental health struggles and what can be done to best support them. So let me ask the same questions of you. Chris, counting up, what do you think is working well in this personal statement?


Chris Loo  39:17  
I think what's working well Is she very descriptive about the experiences with her mental health. I also really like the fact that she, you know, you definitely see the challenge, you see the turning point, you see what she's learned. For sure, I think what's really great about this Ethan is you really get a sense of what she has learned and how she's a different person from the time the personal statement started to when we get to the end, right? We definitely see growth. We see vulnerability. And, you know, we actually, I think we see a lot of good writing. So I think that that, that's, that's what I'm taking away from this. I'm. Learn a lot about the student from the beginning to the end. Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  40:03  
I'm with you. I point about growth that you're making. I really see it, especially there in that ending, where she's basically flashing back to the beginning, and she's going back to Grammy's final months, and she says, I'm not filled with bitterness. And what that does this is like a strategic, technical thing, is that she's kind of giving. She's reminding us of the before shot, like who I was, and then she's giving us the after shot, which is like now I'm filled with empathy and understanding. I choose to remember the good times. And she's gotten to a place of gratitude, and she's naming some values there. She's naming beauty, and then she says, and also cruelty. So I love that. I love the way that she gives us a clear sense of who she is. Because if I'm an admission officer, even if I'm reading fast, I do see that that really clear progression. Any notes, if you were, if this was, let's say, a draft, and you were giving the student feedback, would you anything that you would say on that front?


Chris Loo  40:58  
Yeah, actually, because this isn't a student I've worked with as I'm reading it. There is a little bit for me that beginning section, Ethan with the dialog. I guess actually, I didn't realize it until you had commented on the fact that it's actually about Grammy's final months. And so I think the student could be a little bit maybe clearer about kind of the beginning and the end, but I think overall, she's done a really good job. I also like this last sentence right where she has given us sort of a little bit of a peek into what she might want to do in the future as well. So to be able to tie all of that, and it's not just like what she learned, but what she hopes to do. So I think that that was really good as well. Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  41:48  
I'm really with you here. Yeah, I think this is a really solid one too. I know that this happen to know that this essay went through a big, you know, a big process. And I think ultimately the the ratio is a pretty solid ratio in terms of how much time is being devoted to the different sections. I also like in the middle. This is not a critique. This is like, another thing that I like about it is I like the details of all the stuff the student has done and talking about therapy, talking about and I even love the really, real moment where it's like, even, even though other meditation as things don't work for me because of this, I've been able to find other ways to help me calm down in stressing situations. And I feel like that feels so real and so such an acknowledgement of like, I don't know, I think there's sort of this sort of, like, common way that we think these experiences tend to go, and this is, like, it didn't go like everybody else's, but I've still got resources. I've still got tools that I can carry with me. Yeah,


Chris Loo  42:46  
one other thing I do want to say Ethan is because I, you know, don't know this student in that, you know, when she says I had to fight depression, ADHD anxiety, severe sleep apnea in a household that insisted children don't experience these things. I mean, there's definitely sort of a dismissal there, right? That's the impression I'm getting, is that the family isn't really dealing with this or acknowledging it at this point in the personal statement. I think it really took a lot of transparency and vulnerability for the student to then move into I was admitted to the hospital, right? Because what I gained from that is that these issues, it really got to a serious state, where the student had to be hospitalized, and then she does a great job of actually getting us to the end, where we, you know, we see that she's learned so much, grown so much. I think sometimes when students write about mental health, they will ask me questions about, should I write about, you know, the fact that I've been hospitalized, you know? And that, of course, is a whole other conversation, but I think the student has done a really good job of allowing us to know that it got kind of serious. But, you know, there was a turning point, and this is who I am now.


Ethan Sawyer  44:05  
Yeah, I appreciate you naming that. It's, it's, it's pointing me to the middle of the essay again. Where another I want to point out another thing that I think it's doing well, which is that moment in the hospital when the student says, at the start first, says, you know, I was able to grasp that my life had meaning and purpose. And when I first read that, I was like, Well, how, how did you, you know? And I thought it wasn't going to come. And then I read, there was this moment where the parents drove six hours and the student realizing they really did essentially care for her and love her. And that was a moment of transition for her. And the reason I want to point this out is that I think that there are, I think, a couple missteps. Sometimes when students are writing about mental health challenges, and in some cases, students will skip over that moment and look, not everybody has that moment. Let me just be real and say, not everybody has the moment where you sort of realize, Oh my gosh, my life needs to change, and you shift. And so what I want to tell the students, listen. Is like, if you don't have that moment, it's okay. But I think we do need to have a sense of what happened like, what how did you go from feeling X to like, then deciding your life? You know what the things shifted like, what period did you go through, or what was happening internally? Because I think if you skip that, what it can sound like is, man, things were really, really bad, and then suddenly I started this mental health awareness club. And I'm doing a double thing there, where sometimes students will skip, not only their own healing, but they'll also jump to like, helping others. So I want to say two things. One is like, I want to make sure that students are considering talking about your own healing first, before you jump to talk about helping others. And two, yeah, consider, was there a moment when things shifted for you that you could somehow articulate give us a sense of in this case, it was connection with family that helped to make that transition. And you know, it doesn't have to be like there was this one conversation that I had with my mentor that totally changed my life. But it could be like over the next few weeks and months, I started to, you know, realize whatever it was,


Chris Loo  46:10  
yeah, yeah, I think you're totally right about that. She answers all the questions for me, really, Ethan, you know, if I'm an admissions person, and I'm kind of thinking, you know, I've got questions, right? What does a student look like on my campus? Right? What are they going to contribute? Are they safe? She does a great job of answering those questions for me.


Ethan Sawyer  46:33  
Yeah, there's a question that I will sometimes ask students, and this is quick side note to counselors, but also students, you can ask this about yourself I was going to ask you, when we finished the essay, what are you still curious about, or what do you wish you had learned more about? And that just side note is just a really good question to ask about your personal statement once you're a few drafts in, see if you can step back and go, Okay, if I read this from an admission officer's perspective, what am I still curious about? And I love this point you're making, that there's, there's a lot that is answered to me, speaks of this being a personal statement that is demonstrating skills, qualities, values and interests, and like you said, what kind of community member the student's going to be? Yeah. So I want to shift for a second. We've talked a little bit about the additional info, we've talked about counselor letters, we've talked about the personal statement. Let's go back to this question of say you're a counselor, you're working with a student, and they've revealed something in the process. What's my responsibility as a counselor in that situation? From your perspective, there


Chris Loo  47:36  
are two things I will generally want to know. Is, you know, how serious is the student, the mental health challenge the student has just, you know, shared with me, and if it's something that's been kind of ongoing and the student is not in immediate, acute distress, that's one situation. But if the student is really telling me that you know that they're really in crisis. I do often ask students if their parents know, and I think that that's important, right? Is the family sort of involved in in the students mental health issues we here at our school, and I recognize not all schools have them, we do actually have a mental health counselor at school. And so very often, if a student reveals a mental health issue, I will actually ask them to set up a meeting with our mental health counselor. A lot of schools, there's a school counselor, right, who does not only the college piece, but they're also this, you know, the socio the emotional issues that students are facing, and so they're they do everything. And so I think it's important to find out, you know, what supports are already in place for that student, right? Does the family know? Are the parents involved, you know? And what next steps, is that student comfortable with me taking in terms of, you know, allowing the family to know, or asking them, you know, are they? Are they seeing a mental health counselor? And so it really depends, Ethan, am I the only person that the student has decided to, you know, talk about with these issues. In that case, I probably would try to talk to the family in sort of a first step. But if the student is already seeing a mental health counselor, and the family knows, and it's just sort of the student is having a moment in my office of wanting me to know, then I would feel, you know, a lot better about that student safety. So, yeah, I think it really kind of depends on what the student has shared and why they have shared it, and who else has been involved with, you know, the student at that point. Another thing to consider is just to recognize. Said, you know, educators, school administrators, we are mandated reporters. And so if I'm having a conversation with a student and I really do feel like their safety is at risk, I will need to let somebody know that. And so actually, at our school, in our handbook that we do have parents sign. There is a clause in there that the school will actually report, you know, or, you know, get students connected with resources if this, if the school deems that the student is in danger. So I think that that's something that's very important for both students and for parents to know, you know, that feels


Ethan Sawyer  50:39  
really important, and practically speaking, when and how often do you let students know that you are a mandated reporter? Like when is? When is the right time to let a student know that?


Chris Loo  50:49  
Honestly, Ethan, I shoot pretty straight. So usually, when I'm meeting with my juniors, which is the first time I'm having meetings with them, I emphasize two things. I tell them that my office is a safe space, right, that they should be able to feel like they can talk openly, but I always let them know if I feel that you are at risk of hurting yourself or somebody else. I am a mandate reporter, and I will actually need to let somebody know. You know, usually an administrator or a parent. Yeah,


Ethan Sawyer  51:24  
I appreciate you sharing that there are some other questions or considerations. If you find yourself you're a counselor, and you find yourself in a situation where you're trying to assess, I love what you've said here. First of all, is the student safe? Secondly, do they have support? And third, what's the next step that the student is comfortable with you taking? Those seem like really great and clear questions. You know, if you as a counselor, find yourself in a situation where you're trying to assess some of these things, we're certainly not suggesting in this podcast that, hey, you need to become a mental health counselor, if you're a college counselor, but we'll put a set of questions that can help you sort of assess a little bit how the student's doing. You know, things related to sleep patterns and appetite, because some of these things, I think, are things that we're kind of trying to track for without, you know, having the concrete questions. And so we're going to include some of the concrete questions that things that you can kind of be be looking for as you're thinking about transitioning the student over to say, you know, the mental health counselor, what if, Chris, as a counselor, you recommend that a student maybe limits the mention of mental health challenges, and the student pushes back. They say, I have to do this. I have to tell this story. What do you do?


Chris Loo  52:43  
I think the first thing that's really, really important, and as somebody who has, like, dealt with my own mental health issues, you always want to make the student feel seen right. You want to be really asking about their story, their narrative, their journey. And so I think the first thing I really would say is that I want to assure the student that I am not pushing back because I am not hearing them or I don't think that their mental health issues are important. So I think it's a really good idea to let students know why you are recommending that they limit the mention of their mental health challenges. I think the other thing is, students should really recognize that it's not an all or nothing situation. Sometimes they don't have to tell the entire story, right? That there can be parts of it that they can share. Or, as we've mentioned before, you know, does this college, have they gotten enough of a sense of your values and your strengths, right? What makes you you without this mention? And so, you know, I think sometimes I will also ask students, do you want to talk about, you know, the more serious things, like hospitalizations, suicide attempts, things like that, or do you, you know, can we talk about, is this going to raise alarm? Right? Kind of a red flag on the college side? So I do think it's really, really important to have that conversation with students. But ultimately, Ethan, my personal philosophy is that this is a student driven process, and if a student really, at the end of that conversation, says to me, this is so important to me, it is part like my core, and I feel I must tell this story. I'm going to work with that student to tell their story.


Ethan Sawyer  54:39  
Thanks for naming that. I feel so resonant and aligned with you in that so as we were prepping this podcast, there was an article that came out in the New York Times about basically asking, are we talking about this meaning mental health? Too much? And I sent it over to you, and I said, Hey, this might be interesting to explore on. Podcast. I'm curious, Chris, to what extent or in what context Do you think this might be true? Like, are we talking about this too much? There's a


Chris Loo  55:09  
part of me that wants to say to you, like, we can't be talking about it too much. But I think part of that is from my own background of feeling like, until pretty recently, I could not talk about my own mental health. So I would love to be able to, you know, to say, hey, we're moving toward a place where mental health and physical health, right, they're in the same realm, right? We're going to consider both of those things equally, so that if I tell you that I'm suffering from depression or that I have diabetes, right, I'm going to get the same reaction from people, because they are both health issues. And so my kind of first instinct is, I don't think so that we're talking about it. But on the other hand, you know, I think in conversations with other people, one of the things we started to see Ethan, particularly among you know, teenagers, is that they can kind of borrow things from other people, right? And so one of the things that happened, I think, particularly during the pandemic, is words like trigger and trauma, they just kind of started being thrown around. And I really feel like particularly the word trauma needs to be reserved for things that are truly traumatic. And so I think that what the article was really getting at is that, yeah, I think sometimes we were getting to the place where we were just using those words in a way, I think that that did not honor those words. I would say, No, I don't think we're talking about it too much, but I think we need to respect right what people are really struggling with when they talk about mental health issues that we can't be kind of throwing those words around, you know, in a way that's casual.


Ethan Sawyer  57:10  
Yeah, I'm really appreciating what you're saying. The way that a therapist said it to me once is like, there's trauma capital T and then there's trauma small t. And that distinction has been useful for me personally.


Chris Loo  57:23  
Yeah, I think that's great.


Ethan Sawyer  57:27  
Chris. As we wrap here, what do you want families to keep in mind as they're going through this process? And so this could be speaking to students, or more to parents.


Chris Loo  57:37  
One of the things I share with students all the time, Ethan is that in, you know, among 7 billion people, right, and throughout our entire history, there is nobody with your exact combination of DNA, right? You are so, so unique. And so for every student, I think it is important to ask questions. I think it's important to get to know them, and then to figure out, Is it best for you to mention your mental health struggles, and if so, where's the best way to do that in the application,


Ethan Sawyer  58:09  
it was, thanks so much for your time.


Chris Loo  58:13  
Of course.


Ethan Sawyer  58:18  
Thanks friends for listening. Don't forget to check out our comprehensive guide to navigating mental health disclosures, complete with all the examples that we mentioned and more. You'll find that in the show notes at college essay guy.com/podcast coming up in the next episode, you'll get the college admission perspective right from the source when I sit down with Christina Lopez, the Dean of Enrollment Management at Barnard College. Then don't forget to check out Episode Three with Emmy neatfeld, author of The memoir accepted, who discusses both in her book and also in our conversation, what it was like to navigate mental health disclosures from the student perspective. Be well and stay curious. You.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai