Show Notes
Welcome to the next episode to our special three-part series on mental health disclosures in college applications. In Episode 2, Ethan is joined by Christina Lopez, Dean of Enrollment Management at Barnard College. They cover, among other things:
Why is this topic important—both generally, but also personally, for Christina?
What advice would Christina give to students about whether or not to disclose?
What does Christina look for in a personal statement?
How can college counselors and parents help their students navigate this process?
And more
Christina Lopez has served in college admissions for 18 years. She attended New York University Tisch School of the Arts and majored in Drama and later received her M.Ed. from NYU Steinhardt in Higher Education Administration. After graduating she worked in television and film casting and realized she enjoyed working with students. Her first admissions job was at the American Musical and Dramatic Academy in NYC. During her time at NYU, she read for the Stern School of Business and managed the admissions process for Tisch School of the Arts. She joined Barnard’s admissions team in 2014 as the Associate Director for Multicultural Recruitment and now serves as the Dean of Enrollment Management, providing oversight to the Office of Admissions and Financial Aid.
During her career in higher education, Christina has served as an Executive Board Member for New York State Association of College Admissions Counseling (NYSACAC) and Co-Chair of the Association of Black Admissions and Financial Aid Officers of the Ivy League and Sister Schools (ABAFAOILSS). As an advocate for access and equity within higher education, she has previously served on the board of Go To College NYC and Minds Matter, two Community-Based Organizations in NYC that serve under-resourced students as they navigate the college process.
We hope you enjoy the conversation.
Play-by-Play
2:29 – Why is this topic important—both generally, but also personally, for Christina?
4:05 – Christina shares her background
15:27 – What advice would Christina give to students about whether or not to disclose?
20:36 – What are some different options for where students can disclose if they choose to?
23:33 – What information might not be as helpful to disclose?
26:00 – What does Christina look for in a personal statement?
33:45 – Christina shares some memorable college essays
38:22 – How can college counselors help their students navigate this process?
40:38 – What should students and families keep in mind during the college admission process?
50:31 – Closing thoughts
Resources
Blog post linked to this episode: Should I Discuss Mental Health in My Personal Statement or College Application? (And If So, How)?
Part 1 of this series: Episode 512, Navigating Mental Health Disclosures in the College Application: The Counselor Perspective
Your College Bound Kid Podcast: Christina Lopez on “Mental Health”’
Episode 406: Why You Don’t Have to Write about Trauma in Your College Essay to Stand Out—and What You Can Do Instead
Show transcript
Ethan Sawyer 0:08
Hi friends, and welcome back to part two of this special, three part podcast series examining mental health disclosures in the college application process. In our first episode, I interviewed Chris Liu, Director of College Counseling at the Stony Brook school, and we looked at some of the questions that students might ask themselves if they're considering disclosing mental health challenges in their application. And then we walked through the nuts and bolts of where and how in the application they might do that. We also talked about our comprehensive blog Guide, which you'll find at college essay guy.com/podcast with lots of practical examples analyzed in today's episode. However, we're fortunate to get the college admission officer perspective directly from Christina Lopez, Dean of Enrollment Management at Barnard College. In today's conversation, Christina and I talked about, among other things, why is this topic important, both generally, but also personally for Christina, Christina shares some advice, advice for students on whether or not to disclose, and also advice to families navigating this process. I asked Christina, what does she look for in a personal statement? What advice would she give to counselors who are advising students about mental health disclosures and lots, lots more. If you've never met Christina, she served in college admission for more than 18 years. Attended NYU Tisch School of the Arts, majoring in drama, and later got her master's in education from NYU Steinhardt in higher ed administration. After graduating, she worked at the American musical and dramatic Academy in admissions, then moved over to NYU. Then she joined Barnard's admission team in 2014 first as the Associate Director for multicultural recruitment, and now she works as the dean of Enrollment Management, providing oversight to the Office of Admissions and Financial Aid. She served as an executive board member for The New York State Association of college admission counselors and co chair of the Association of Black admissions and financial aid officers of the Ivy League and sister schools, which, by the way, makes for a really fun acronym. She's an advocate for access and equity in higher education. Has served on the board of go to college NYC. And Minds Matter, and I really, really enjoyed our conversation. I hope you do too.
Hi Christina, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Why do you feel like it's important that we're talking about mental health challenges as a college admission profession, and in particular, mental health disclosures in the college application.
Christina Lopez 2:49
It's it's important in that reflective process to really think about what we've overcome over these last couple years. In these four years, there's so much growth that happens in high school, and it be really a disservice to not think about those most impactful things, even if they are some of the darker things, right? You know, some of those really difficult things that you've had to overcome, you may not be ready to talk about them yet, and that's absolutely fine. There's no obligation to talk about them in your college essay, but if you do feel that you have grown from them, then you should be able to feel free to talk about that, because that is your truth. A friend once said to me once, what's the approach that empowers you and doesn't diminish you? And what will always empower me is my truth and being able to share that part of me, and if I feel stifled in doing that, then I'm not being true to who I am. And part of the college application is being true to who you are. Now, you know, we'll talk about ways in which to approach that, in which you can feel safe to do that and when it's appropriate, but it feels disingenuous to take it off the table altogether, if that is a part of who you are,
Ethan Sawyer 4:05
right? And one of the things that you and I talked about in prepping for this episode was the difference between writing about it in general, which I think we're on the same page, is so powerful and can be so in many cases, I use the word nutritional a lot you know that reflection that you know it can be healing in some cases, to write about it. And then there is a separate, related, but separate conversation about, Okay, which of these pieces end up going into the application to demonstrate your candidacy. So I want to get into the practicality of that in just a few minutes. But first, I was so inspired with the podcast that you recorded a couple years ago for your college bound kit, where you shared a little bit about your personal your personal journey and how you enter into this conversation. Would you be willing to share just a little bit about your background, your story and why this is an important conversation for you on a personal level? Yeah.
Christina Lopez 4:58
So. Yeah, I've learned a lot about myself in the last few years. I definitely struggled with anxiety and depression from childhood in in a variety of ways. I've I am a big fan of therapy. Been doing it for many, many years, but I think that's because I have a very curious kind of probing personality and psychology tends to be a little bit of a special interest for me, but for me personally, I grew up not feeling like I had outlets to talk about what was going on with me emotionally. A lot of my validation at home came from my achievements, and that's how I got noticed. But in order to achieve that, was a tremendous emotional and mental hole on me. I had several mental health crisis, as I would call them, from high school, college, post college, in my 30s, where I just thought I suffered from depression, things would get to a point where I would just feel like, Oh, why bother. I'm not good. I can't do this. You know, I would get just exhausted from the constant pushing and trying and just it would then revolt back to just having low self esteem and doubting my abilities, constantly living in the space of imposter syndrome, where it's like you just never feel like you're capable. You know, even though clearly you are. And I learned later during the pandemic that I also suffered from anxiety. Anxiety makes you feel like you care about everything and nothing at the same time with the depressant, and so they're kind of like a getting young situation, and so I couldn't focus on anything. If I did one thing a day that was an accomplishment. I just was. It was like pushing through water to get anything done. And then after was over, I'm absolutely exhausted, even though I feel I've accomplished nothing, and therefore thinking about how how I've accomplished nothing, and having anxiety about that, and then unable to sleep, because now I feel a sense of overwhelming dread that I am behind, and all the things that I need to do and I'm never going to catch up. And being utterly exhausted, and, you know, having this go on for, you know, days, weeks, you get to a point where you're just, you're so mentally exhausted that you have nothing left, and that's where the depression comes in, right? And it's just, depression is, it's interesting when you have, you know, some people think like, oh, depression is that you can't get out of bed and your your shades are down and everything. And that was me in high school. However, as an adult, you have responsibilities, and so I learned, even in high school, I can get out of that, go to class, get the A's, do the things that I need to do, and go right back into that hole, right I can laugh, and I can joke with my friends, and I can put on this mask, and you would never know that I was depressed, and I can do that now, and that's what makes it so scary, that I can still get my work done, I can still get up and be social and all of those things. But when I come home, it's it's gray. The world is gray the entire time. It drains everything out of me. Recently, I've learned that I also have a little bit of neurodiversity, and how that actually is kind of the thing that holds all of this together. And I have ADHD, which is and autism as well. And so, you know, it's interesting, because these are two opposite wolves that are battling it out, and it tends to be difficult, because, you know, as a late diagnosed autistic ADHD, there are no studies about people who look like me, right? And when you think of people who are on the spectrum, I sometimes don't see myself in them, and they don't see myself in them. So it's kind of feels like it's being discredited. But it's not. There are pieces of me that really desire in me, routine and structure, and then the opposite of that is ADHD wants, wants to be impulsive, and feeling the need to make plans, but then feeling the need to have things open and leave it to the day. You know, it's needing things to be in their very specific place. But there's also. Chaos everywhere, laundry piles, every and needing certain sensory things in order for me to be able to focus. You know, things are too loud, if it's too crowded, if it's too bright, too hot, I can't focus. And so all of those normal systems that I had during COVID, they were up in smoke, and so no wonder I was on the floor and couldn't function. And so understanding that the dysregulation and the rumination that I was having then, it caused the anxiety and depression to rise. So there was always this driving factor, and, you know, being able to look back at my childhood and really start to see, oh, there are things that I could do, but they brought me a lot of frustration and discomfort in order to do them and dysregulation. But I had to be a good girl, and had to, you know, make sure you look people in the eye. Make sure you shake their hand Yes, make sure you hug everybody. Know, all of those things that are normal mannerisms that disagreed at me greatly, but I've learned to do them in mask and camouflage, and so I have been open about this, and it's, you know, been this, this constant journey of me learning about myself, because I recognize how I need to structure my day and my energy and so that I can make sure that my cup is filled, And I have, you know, things to give, but it's been important for me to talk about mental health, because when I was younger and having that major depressive episode, and had no one to talk to, and no one was kind of checking in on me, I wish I had Someone who looked like me, a teacher, a mentor, uncle, somebody that was open about their struggles and how that would have been just like a cells for myself to know that I wasn't alone and and I think there are a lot of teenagers, A lot of students who are kind of in that same boat and need to know that it's okay. There are people who understand, especially on the college side, who understand how difficult this can be, and are cheering you on and applauding you for your strength and your resiliency and all of the ways that you're getting through your day that no one may realize how difficult it is for you to do, but we see you, and I think I just needed to do this to talk to my own 16 year old self, so let her know like now I see you and there's we're healing from, from All of that, I
Ethan Sawyer 13:01
want to first say, thanks for being willing to share about these things. And I hope that counselors and admission folks are listening too, because I think that this is when I talk to my colleagues, when I talk to my friends. You know, some of us are struggling and and it's not all that like, oh yeah, this was in my past. And then it's just like you said, magically gone. It's like self care and self discovery is an ongoing thing and and I want students to know too. They're like, Hey, folks who are reading your applications are humans too. Exactly, doing our best, and we struggle too. So I appreciate that perspective as well.
Christina Lopez 13:40
Yeah, I've been talking about mental health and at a few schools in the New York City area, whenever people ask me to be a keynote, not only to students to recognize that they're not alone, but also to parents to like sometimes, when you have that, that strong kid that's always on top of things, it's always turning in their work and getting those aids check in on them, right, right? You know that sometimes you forget to ask them what's going on emotionally in their world, too. I think it's just been really refreshing to hear feedback from a lot of families that they appreciate someone being willing to talk about it and being open about it. You know, I think it's it sparked a lot of conversations afterwards, which I'm always grateful for. But most importantly, I think it has allow students to start having conversations about, hey, this is something that I struggle with, or maybe I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was a child, and I don't know if I should talk about it, because of the stigma, and I don't want them to look at me as if I'm not capable. Or, you know, I I know my transcript looks a little wonky, but that's because I didn't know I was dyslexic, and now I. I've been diagnosed, and now my transcript looks different. Do I talk about that? You know? And there's a lot of fear of judgment that students have, and so I think that's also impedes students from feeling empowered to tell their truth. I think it's great that we're having this conversation to actually guide students through it so that they can make the best decision for themselves.
Ethan Sawyer 15:27
Well, let's, let's shift then I'm, I'm curious. When students ask you, should I talk about my mental health challenges in my college application? What advice do you tend to give?
Christina Lopez 15:39
So I tell them, it really is up to them. There's no obligation for you to disclose any of it, but if you feel that it is an important part of your story, then talk about it. But there's a way that you can do so that approaches it from a place of strength, and I think that's sometimes what we like to see. So I always tell students to do a barometer Chat, where I like to call the ashes in the Phoenix, right? Is this something that you are still struggling with? You haven't got a handle on it, you're still emotionally processing it, and you're just not in a point of clarity about it, where you can feel like you're reflecting on it, as if it's something that happens in the past, that maybe you're still in it, you're still in the ashes, right? And in that sense, it's may not be best for you to speak about it, because you still are processing it yourself, right? However, if you are the Phoenix, you are rising from the ashes. You are a shining bird blazing fire across the sky. You overcome it, and so you can you fly away. You're looking back on it, and you can see, oh, wow, okay, how this has shaped me, how this has molded me, how this has made my colors brighter. I can say that I am different because of this experience. You know, I'm always hesitant to say like I'm grateful for it, because sometimes there are things that have gene you may not be so grateful for but you can still say that they have shaped how you see yourself and how you see and so that's a little bit of a barometer check. Where are you in processing it beyond that, I think it's more about what is the story that you're telling here, and is it about the ways in which you've learned about yourself, and maybe it's about your neurodiversity and the ways that you've learned how your brain works and how beautiful it is, and how you see the world differently, and the ways in which that neurodiversity might have a stigma for the world, and there's a sense of shame that you should hide it, but you're proud of it, right? That's a great story to tell. If there is, you know, the ways in which you have built the support systems, the ways that you have figured out your little coping skills. You know, for me, it's hard for me to be motivated to do something that did not. And I know that's typical, you know. And you know, sometimes people discredit neurodiversity of saying, well, everybody does that, yes, ADHD traits, autism traits, they are human traits, but the way that they affect people is different. While one might get frustrated, another person can get completely dysregulated and want to jump out of their skin. For me, it's I can be sitting on a couch knowing that I need to do something. My brain is screaming at me that you need to do this, and I am immobile, and sometimes what I've learned is the way to get me out of that is music. If I can pair it with something that I enjoy, then I will do it. I will wash dishes to music. I will wash my hair to music, all these long, laborious things that I don't want to do, as long as there's music playing, specifically 90s, R and B. You know,
Ethan Sawyer 19:20
we're on the same page there
Christina Lopez 19:22
exactly. So, you know, these are skills that I've learned about myself, and so if you're approaching your story from that perspective, these are things that I learned that I'm taking with faith and guess. But you know, I think that if you are afraid that if I disclose this, then maybe people want won't, will it knit me, or they're going to think of me differently. Perhaps, however, is that a place you want to be right? You want to be at a place where you know you're going to be able to have support, you know you want to be at a place where they're going to sell. Great, the wonderful gifts and the beauty of your brain and the way that it works. You want to be at a place that wants you, and if that lines up because of a deny decision, then that place wasn't really for you. If you are rooted in telling your truth, then that's fine. If that fear is too great for you, then you don't have to disclose it. So it really is. Where are you in your journey? How are you processing it? And are you okay with whatever outcome? Because you're like, This is me, take me or leave
Ethan Sawyer 20:35
me. Great. So one of the things that I think students come in with thinking that their disclosure has to happen, for example, in the personal statement, I'd love for you, though, to talk about what are some different options for where students can disclose if they do decide to disclose in the application. Yeah,
Christina Lopez 20:53
first and foremost, it does not need to be your essay. I think your essay can be a wonderful place for you to talk about who you are and the lens that you use to view the worlds. I always say that that's kind of an amalgamation of lots of different things, your your own personal identities, where you grew up, who raised you, who didn't raise you, where you went to school, all the different things that make you you, and how you perceive the world and how others perceive you, and finding a great story a great vehicle to show that, and so your your struggles with mental health or may not be the right kind of story that you want to tell, or it could be a portion of it, you know, maybe it's aligned in that story, but it is not the whole story. There is a section called the Additional Information section, and that's a great place to to talk about anything that you feel will help the admissions committee with context to your application, right? So a great place to just give factual information. Hey, my sophomore year, there was a dip in my grades. I was really struggling with depression and anxiety that year, but I, you know, was able to get support from family and therapists or what have you, and was able to, you know, my grades definitely more reflective in the next semester. Or, Hey, I had a death in the family during this particular time, and I was definitely in morning period, and my grades are, you know, rebounded in the next semester. Whatever that might be, whatever that part of your story is, it's more direct factual. This is what happened. This was the outcome, yet that is totally fine and and a great place to put that. In addition, your counselor letter might be a place to talk about it. Maybe you just give more of the factual information and the additional comment section. But your counselor, if you give her permission, may talk about it a little bit in terms of how it may have they may have seen that growth within some what your teachers may have said, or the ways in which you've engaged in your community because of that and ways in which you've grown over time, they might address it in in their letter as well. And just to give a different perspective, so you get to decide how much or how little and where you want to put it in your application, if at all right,
Ethan Sawyer 23:33
and what are some things? Because I know some students are going to wonder, what are some ways that students, quote, unquote, go wrong or like, what are some don'ts when it comes to disclosing what have you seen that has been less helpful when it comes to understanding how this information is going to impact a student's candidacy. For example,
Christina Lopez 23:50
I think sometimes not having realizing that you're still on the ashes, right? So I'll give you an example, there was this one student who was talking about the fairly recent death of her father, and he was he had a heart attack, and she wrote her whole essay about heart disease and how she now wants to be a doctor and study heart disease. And it was kind of like a book report on heart disease with, you know, the death of her father kind of being the catalyst to start this, but that was kind of an indication to me that, all right, I'm not really learning about you, I'm learning about heart disease. And the reason that perhaps you've pivoted is because you're not quite ready to touch this third reel of your parents death, because you're still mourning. And it makes sense, because it was only like within the last six months when you realize that you are well the tent to even really talk about it in death that will kind of let you know you're not you're not ready to. Dot com, and then that's okay. Another red flag is you're you're giving too many details. You know, I've had a lot of students talk about eating disorders and the ways in which they've seen their body change, or their thoughts about their body, and you know, the ways that they maybe approached food in that tie, and I think I it's why I always say, like, this isn't meant to be a journal entry or a diary entry. You don't have to disclose all of the thoughts and things that happen during that time. I think there's a way that you can approach your grid. You can keep some of that integrity for yourself, you know. I think sometimes students will approach the essay as you know, I have to have something that really grabs their attention. And sometimes a big thing that grabs our attention is sometimes a very tragic story, and that's not what we're looking for here. It's really, I just want to know about you, right, and so I can learn about you without having to know a lot of those dark thoughts or really, really intimate moments. Can you left out of the essay? I think it's more of, how did you grow from this? How did you overcome this? How has this changed you, versus telling me about what happened in in those moments?
Ethan Sawyer 26:32
Yeah, I really am just nodding as you're talking. You know, the structure that I'll sometimes talk to students about is like challenges and effects, you know, what did you do about it? And then what did you learn that admission officers aren't looking to know. It's not like you got into these challenges. You had this tough stuff happen, therefore we want you at our campus, right? It's like, how did you metabolize those experiences? Like you said, What did you do? What did you learn? And I think sometimes it's that students haven't spent a lot of time brainstorming other options, because they're faced with what's the biggest you know, someone's telling you, tell your deepest story, and it's like, well, this is the thing I've been facing the last two years. So I definitely have to write about this. And to those students who are listening, I want to say there are other possibilities. As Christina was saying, that things that make up your identity and who you are and what you're about, what you care about, your superpowers. We'll put a guide linked below in the show notes to like, help you brainstorm some of those things. So if you're feeling like you're listening and you're like, but what else am I going to write about? Stay tuned there. There are other ideas, other options,
Christina Lopez 27:35
right? And I think that's really important because, you know, sometimes there is this push to, like, tell me about your trauma, and you're like, No, because they don't recognize how devastating it can be to someone to have to dredge all of that up again, especially if you haven't healed from it. This is really about being able to talk about your growth and who you are, rather than this really difficult moment in your life. I was working with a student years ago during a college access program who had this wonderful story, this beautiful, tragic story of crossing the border with her mother. She was a child. She was ill, she had a heart defect, and her and her mother crossed the border and seeking asylum so that she could get medical attention. And she's very incredibly, you know, open about the story, but it was more about this particular time and and crossing that wasn't necessarily her story, with a lot of what her mother had told her, she was very young, and, you know, being able to say hey, she was very and she was also very nervous about telling this story, because she felt exposed, and then she felt very vulnerable for a variety of different reasons. But someone had told her, No, this is the story you tell. This was the defining moment in your life. And I was like, you don't have to tell the story if you don't feel comfortable telling it. Is it your story to tell? Partially, yes, but it was also, you know, is there a way that we can approach the story, or the story we are in a way that still allows you to feel safe and telling it right? Because it was difficult for her to bring that up, it didn't make her feel safe, and wanting her to feel that she's able to submit something that she feels is truly reflective of her, but she feels safe enough to do so. And so when we're guiding students through the essay process, it's also being able to recognize where is the student in in this story. Are they? Do they feel safe enough to tell it, and if they don't, then it's not a place to push Yeah,
Ethan Sawyer 30:06
here's a question. So what do you generally look for when you're reading the college essay, when you're sitting down to read the personal statement, what do you what are you looking for? What are you hoping to learn?
Christina Lopez 30:19
Couple of things. One, obviously, I'm looking to see how well does the student rent, you know, how have they structured the essay, their writing, their grammar? Is the student going to be ready for the rigors of a liberal arts curriculum? So that's one thing. Majority of the applicant pool, yes, have checked that box second quadrant. What? How do I feel like I've learned about the student and how they think about their curiosity. Part of this is also thinking about who are they going to be in an academic classroom? Are they going to be someone who thinks deeply, who probes a little bit more, who is going to engage in those conversations? What are, what are their experiences and their perspectives that they're bringing into this academic space where I'm not just assuming you're not coming into a space, especially at a liberal arts college, where a professor is just brain dumping things into a lecture, you are actively creating knowledge in that classroom. All of the students are participating in that, and everyone is a scholar, right? And so being able to see your curiosity and and the way your gears move and just how you will contribute to that space, and some of the things that I'm looking for in that essay. And then, you know, I think there's also just a piece of, I'm building a community, right? I'm and I think there's an assumption that, oh, one, everyone has to be a leader. Well, leadership is not always synonymous with the title. There are many different ways that you can approach leadership and leadership qualities, and there's also those aspects of like, Are you a kind person? Are you, you know? Are you compassionate? Are you someone who think that's community minded? Are you someone who builds bridges across populations of people who may not have be able to see eye to eye and be able to manage those difficult conversations? Are you someone who recognizes them? Maybe you grew up in a bubble, and I want to see what's outside of this, and it's important to me to learn about other people's perspectives, because that's going to be how I grow. Those are the type of people that I know are going to be great within the community, and what are the stories and perspectives and experiences that you're bringing that are going to uplift the others in this community as well. So sometimes it's not so much you're reflecting on other things that I've seen in the application. You're telling me about an activity that you've done, or what have you, but really it's how am I getting a peek into how you see the world? And sometimes it's not necessarily about how you see the world, but also for some, especially thinking about me as a black woman, sometimes I have to take in how others see me as how I you know that my salient identities sometimes will dictate how I move in the world, right, and how that becomes a part of my story, or Not all of those, I always think about those three factors when I'm reviewing applications. So I'd
Ethan Sawyer 33:46
love to hear about what are some of your favorite college essay topics or personal statements that really stood out to you. And maybe you gave me an example of one that was about a challenge, a student overcoming a challenge, or set of challenges, and then one that wasn't about a challenge. So I call these sometimes a narrative structure and then a montage structure. So what do you got? So
Christina Lopez 34:06
again, it's about that perspective of the lens that you're using to view the world. And one was a student, she identified as Latina and low income, and she talked about her her kitchen table, and I was a full bore, packed wooden table, kind of worn and weathered, but it was the place where she saw her mother sit every month and do the household bills, household finances, and the essay question was about that bridge into adulthood and talking about that from your perspective. And so she watched as her brother turned 16, how her mother brought him into the conversation and would sit him down at the table with her and give him a. Perspective of like, okay, this is how much we have coming in, and this bill's going out, and this is what it takes to run this household, or what have you. And then the level of maturity and perspective that it brought him of the value of things within, you know, his world, and how he can help and contribute, or what have you. And she talked about how this table was, then this bridge to adulthood, and how honored she felt when she was invited to sit at the table and be a part of this conversation, and the ways that she felt connected to her family because of that, in recognizing like, oh, I now have a part in making sure that this household continues and it continues to build on this wonderful foundation that my mother has built. And I just thought that was just a beautiful essay to talk about how she valued her family, how she saw this bridge into adulthood with that meant for her and in her context, but but also just a sense of her own views of growth and maturity as well. The other was from a student who went to an arts high school, and she was a painter, and she talked about just on her daily commute, and the things that she saw and she envisioned little portraits and interactions that she saw people that she she was a people watcher. She was always observing people and just recognizing the light and dark and beauty of life and how that shaped her art. To people who were, you could tell that there was, you know, maybe they were on a first date, and there was a little tension between them, and the nervous tension, and how she, kind of, like, saw that painting and the colors, and then another with a mother and her child, and they were kind of leaning on each other and sleeping, you know, and how she was able to kind of capture these moments in the way that she said that, you know, like I would see them as as blue, and I saw this other couple of shades of pink or what have you, and it was just about, this is my lens that I use, and this is the way that I think about art and moving every day, and that I'm able to now come to college and have these wonderful experiences that are going to continue to build me and the way in which I see the beauty around and I was like, that's a really interesting perspective of thinking about the world around you.
Ethan Sawyer 37:33
A question I get from students is some version of, is it better to write about challenges? Or they'll ask me something like, Well, what if I don't have a big challenge to write about? And I know this because, you know, I, you know, see amazing essays that aren't about challenges. But what do you say to students who are feeling like they they feel like they need a big challenge to write about?
Christina Lopez 37:55
No, I don't think that your challenges have to define who you are, and even if you do feel like there is one that has defined where it doesn't mean that you have to write. So no, it's not. It's not about writing about the difficulties you overcome. And so it's being able to give the the admissions committee a good perspective on who you are and what you're bringing to our community.
Ethan Sawyer 38:22
What advice would you give to counselors who are coaching students through this process? What questions should they be asking students and what should they be assessing? I
Christina Lopez 38:35
think first and foremost, I want to implore counselors to get away from this idea, like, let's explore, explore your trauma, you know, and they will never approach it in that way. But like, you know, understanding that if you start from a place of what are some of the things you've had to overcome in your life, for some that's where they might go and to know that that's not the only direction that that question has to go in. You know, being able to be a guide and say like, Hey, we don't have to talk about that, I think, is really important. It sometimes it's very relieving to a student to know that they don't have to talk about that if they're not, especially if they don't feel safe or they don't feel ready to do so, I think being able to have them think about what is something that you truly care about and why? What is something that you've experienced in these last few years that has been kind of a defining moment for you. Sometimes it's that challenge might have been dealing with an aspect of their identity where they're kind of feeling like they're straddling two worlds. Mainly, it was a challenge that they had in school, that they had to overcome a social thing, or what have you like. Doesn't have to be like the big thing. I think helping them to find, to recognize that they have a wealth of stories to tell is part of of this journey of self discovery. Allow them to free write whenever they want to write about sometimes you might find that there are three or four ideas in one little free write session, you know, being able to extrapolate wool from that that this is an exploration process. It is a reflective process, but students tend to find the best stories when they feel free to explore all
Ethan Sawyer 40:37
aspects of who they are. What advice would you give to students who are considering, well, let's just say students who are working on their their college essays and applications, as many students who are listening to this will
Christina Lopez 40:48
be number one. Start early. I think being able to start drafting out your essays in the summer before your senior year will be really hopeful in terms of just time management, because by doing some of that work over the summer, you might actually have a very solid working draft by the time you get to school in the fall. And let me tell you that fall semester goes by very quick. If you're applying early decision somewhere. By November, it's like tomorrow, and December comes very quickly after that. So in addition to all of the work that you're doing, usually, senior year is your most rigorous year, and so you can kind of get some of that work on it the way, it makes it a whole lot easier. Same for your supplement essay. And do want leave supplement essays until the end, they are essential. So the process most will have their supplements posted by the time the application goes live in August, so you can start working on those towards the end of the summer as well. Get a team together. I always say your team should have three people, someone who knows you really well. That does not need to be a parent, because sometimes some of the things you may feel that you want to discuss in your essay may not be things that you feel ready to tell your parents, and that's totally fine, but a friend, a mentor, a confidant from other family member that you trust who knows you and can say, Does this really sound like you? Are you really being your full authentic self here? One who knows writing really well, someone who can do that spell check, someone who can do the grammar, someone who can think about the structure of the essay, but someone who is not editing out your voice in doing so, right? Making sure that this still sounds like it's coming from you and not an adult is a big difference. I can tell the voice of a 4050, year old person versus a 17 year old. We want to make sure it still sounds like you. And then the last person is someone who knows the college process, so that could be a CEO counselor, it could be a college counselor, be a guidance counselor, etc, but someone who understands what colleges are looking for an essay, understands the writing and reflective essay, and can help you structure it and think about those stories in a way that is going to make the most impact in your application. And the last thing I would say is, you know, we we live in an era where we talk about everything on social media, from what did you eat this morning and what was our perspective on this show, and we're given all of the detail, the things that happened to us, and that's fine, but doesn't necessarily mean to be in your college essay. This is not a till all book. It is not a journal entry. It is not a diary entry. It is not an IG life. It is a short snippet of who you are and an experience that has shaped you. And so again, all of those extra details don't necessarily need to be there. If you feel that you are divulging too many details, you can always pull it back. Amazing. So one of the things that's really important for students to know is how we are assessing your essays or additional comments section if you are choosing to write about a mental health challenge or we are a we're all human, some of us with our own mental health challenges, Whether they are own or other loved ones. And so there is always the sense of of understanding, compassion that where we're approaching in reading students stories and care that we take in your stories, and we're not in a place to judge. I think what we are looking. For is how the student talk about it. Where are they in their journey? Do we have the support that the student will need to thrive at this institution? Does the student talk about ways in which they've created that support system for themselves? Do we feel that they are independent and able to recreate those support circles away from what they've they've known? And I think it's, it's more of an assessment of, is this going to be an environment where the student is going to thrive, and never a matter of how our our judgments on or our biases on mental health. I think one of the things that many admissions counselors go through are just our implicit bias training and the ways in which are the way we see the world can sometimes come through in applications, and how we can try to mitigate that in a variety of different ways. And so mental health just being one of them. And so I think it's important to know that we really are thinking about, do we have what the student will need in order to grow and thrive? Are they able, and I'm Will they be open and willing to take advantage of it as well? It's really more of how we're thinking about it. Beautiful.
Ethan Sawyer 46:26
Christina, what do you hope that families will keep in mind as they're navigating this college admission process?
Christina Lopez 46:32
So one thing more I always say is that college acceptance is not a trophy to be one. There is, you know, for parents as teenagers. And I can attest to this, as I, you know, my whole teenage years, I'm embarrassed by my parents. I don't want to be around them, you know, their pain, etc. But I'm always watching they're always watching you they are learning how to navigate the world through you, sometimes in a very quiet way, they're peeking around the corner right, and the ways in which you approach this college process, they will manage right. So if you are calm, if you are a grounding source for them. If you are reminding them that they are wonderful in who they are, they're, you know all of their accomplishments, their mistakes, the everything that makes up who they are is enough, and by the time they get to these college acceptances, the yeses and the NOS will just be that yes and no and not a validation of everything they've done in high school and who they are and what they will accomplish in the future, because it's none of those things, but they will learn that from you and how you approach it. I always say, you know this is going to be their last year at home. You want to be able to create moments that they will want to pack in their suitcase, to take with them, that remind them that home is a safe place, and if that year is full of stress and drama around the college process, that's what they're going to remember, and that's where they're going to try to be running away from. So if it's necessary to have a designated time, maybe once a week, to have these conversations, they're in the driver's seat and you are support. I sometimes will say you're in the passenger seat, but sometimes parents need to be in the back seat. You need to be in the back seat. You know, being able to if you're going on a college tour and you're going on a college campus, don't share your thoughts first, because you recognize how influential your voice is let them process it first, and then, you know, talk about it, reminding that they are needing this process. And sometimes they do need a little push, because they're a little, you know, slow to launch, but it's a push and not a drag. And I think for students, it's a reminder that every grade that you got, every award, every accomplishment, every leadership title that was for you and you alone, not for any sort of validation from this college process. If you don't feel like that was an accomplishment just for you and you're doing it for college, and stuff, because high school isn't just a stepping stone College. High School, in and of itself, a chapter in your life, and should be valued as such. It is a place where you learn about who you are and what you care about, and create friendships that last and. Everything can't be about looking forward, and especially when you get to senior year. I remember my senior year, I couldn't wait to be a senior. I'm running school. I you know, people are looking for me. I'm popular, what have you. But if you're so worried about the college process, it's going to respond, you're going to be so stressing, you're not even going to enjoy it. So be present. Enjoy where you are, knowing that these acceptances are just going to determine where your next goal is. So just keep it in the right perspective.
Speaker 1 50:30
Christina, thank you. Thank you so much for your time. I'm glad
Christina Lopez 50:34
Thank you for having me.
Ethan Sawyer 50:39
Thanks friends again for listening. Don't forget to check out part three in our series where I interview Emmy meetfeld, author of The memoir accepted, who discusses both in her book, but also in our conversation, what it was like to navigate mental health disclosures from the student perspective. If you'd like the written version, check out the show notes at college. Sa guy.com/podcast where you'll see a really comprehensive guide with lots of examples analyzed, so you can see, practically speaking, how and where to navigate disclosures in the college application process. Or, I guess you could just Google mental health disclosures College Essay Guy, and that'll probably get you there too. Be well and stay curious. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show transcript
Ethan Sawyer 0:08 Hi friends, and welcome back to part two of this special, three part podcast series examining mental health disclosures in the college application process. In our first episode, I interviewed Chris Liu, Director of College Counseling at the Stony Brook school, and we looked at some of the questions that students might ask themselves if they're considering disclosing mental health challenges in their application. And then we walked through the nuts and bolts of where and how in the application they might do that. We also talked about our comprehensive blog Guide, which you'll find at college essay guy.com/podcast with lots of practical examples analyzed in today's episode. However, we're fortunate to get the college admission officer perspective directly from Christina Lopez, Dean of Enrollment Management at Barnard College. In today's conversation, Christina and I talked about, among other things, why is this topic important, both generally, but also personally for Christina, Christina shares some advice, advice for students on whether or not to disclose, and also advice to families navigating this process. I asked Christina, what does she look for in a personal statement? What advice would she give to counselors who are advising students about mental health disclosures and lots, lots more. If you've never met Christina, she served in college admission for more than 18 years. Attended NYU Tisch School of the Arts, majoring in drama, and later got her master's in education from NYU Steinhardt in higher ed administration. After graduating, she worked at the American musical and dramatic Academy in admissions, then moved over to NYU. Then she joined Barnard's admission team in 2014 first as the Associate Director for multicultural recruitment, and now she works as the dean of Enrollment Management, providing oversight to the Office of Admissions and Financial Aid. She served as an executive board member for The New York State Association of college admission counselors and co chair of the Association of Black admissions and financial aid officers of the Ivy League and sister schools, which, by the way, makes for a really fun acronym. She's an advocate for access and equity in higher education. Has served on the board of go to college NYC. And Minds Matter, and I really, really enjoyed our conversation. I hope you do too. Hi Christina, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Why do you feel like it's important that we're talking about mental health challenges as a college admission profession, and in particular, mental health disclosures in the college application. Christina Lopez 2:49 It's it's important in that reflective process to really think about what we've overcome over these last couple years. In these four years, there's so much growth that happens in high school, and it be really a disservice to not think about those most impactful things, even if they are some of the darker things, right? You know, some of those really difficult things that you've had to overcome, you may not be ready to talk about them yet, and that's absolutely fine. There's no obligation to talk about them in your college essay, but if you do feel that you have grown from them, then you should be able to feel free to talk about that, because that is your truth. A friend once said to me once, what's the approach that empowers you and doesn't diminish you? And what will always empower me is my truth and being able to share that part of me, and if I feel stifled in doing that, then I'm not being true to who I am. And part of the college application is being true to who you are. Now, you know, we'll talk about ways in which to approach that, in which you can feel safe to do that and when it's appropriate, but it feels disingenuous to take it off the table altogether, if that is a part of who you are, Ethan Sawyer 4:05 right? And one of the things that you and I talked about in prepping for this episode was the difference between writing about it in general, which I think we're on the same page, is so powerful and can be so in many cases, I use the word nutritional a lot you know that reflection that you know it can be healing in some cases, to write about it. And then there is a separate, related, but separate conversation about, Okay, which of these pieces end up going into the application to demonstrate your candidacy. So I want to get into the practicality of that in just a few minutes. But first, I was so inspired with the podcast that you recorded a couple years ago for your college bound kit, where you shared a little bit about your personal your personal journey and how you enter into this conversation. Would you be willing to share just a little bit about your background, your story and why this is an important conversation for you on a personal level? Yeah. Christina Lopez 4:58 So. Yeah, I've learned a lot about myself in the last few years. I definitely struggled with anxiety and depression from childhood in in a variety of ways. I've I am a big fan of therapy. Been doing it for many, many years, but I think that's because I have a very curious kind of probing personality and psychology tends to be a little bit of a special interest for me, but for me personally, I grew up not feeling like I had outlets to talk about what was going on with me emotionally. A lot of my validation at home came from my achievements, and that's how I got noticed. But in order to achieve that, was a tremendous emotional and mental hole on me. I had several mental health crisis, as I would call them, from high school, college, post college, in my 30s, where I just thought I suffered from depression, things would get to a point where I would just feel like, Oh, why bother. I'm not good. I can't do this. You know, I would get just exhausted from the constant pushing and trying and just it would then revolt back to just having low self esteem and doubting my abilities, constantly living in the space of imposter syndrome, where it's like you just never feel like you're capable. You know, even though clearly you are. And I learned later during the pandemic that I also suffered from anxiety. Anxiety makes you feel like you care about everything and nothing at the same time with the depressant, and so they're kind of like a getting young situation, and so I couldn't focus on anything. If I did one thing a day that was an accomplishment. I just was. It was like pushing through water to get anything done. And then after was over, I'm absolutely exhausted, even though I feel I've accomplished nothing, and therefore thinking about how how I've accomplished nothing, and having anxiety about that, and then unable to sleep, because now I feel a sense of overwhelming dread that I am behind, and all the things that I need to do and I'm never going to catch up. And being utterly exhausted, and, you know, having this go on for, you know, days, weeks, you get to a point where you're just, you're so mentally exhausted that you have nothing left, and that's where the depression comes in, right? And it's just, depression is, it's interesting when you have, you know, some people think like, oh, depression is that you can't get out of bed and your your shades are down and everything. And that was me in high school. However, as an adult, you have responsibilities, and so I learned, even in high school, I can get out of that, go to class, get the A's, do the things that I need to do, and go right back into that hole, right I can laugh, and I can joke with my friends, and I can put on this mask, and you would never know that I was depressed, and I can do that now, and that's what makes it so scary, that I can still get my work done, I can still get up and be social and all of those things. But when I come home, it's it's gray. The world is gray the entire time. It drains everything out of me. Recently, I've learned that I also have a little bit of neurodiversity, and how that actually is kind of the thing that holds all of this together. And I have ADHD, which is and autism as well. And so, you know, it's interesting, because these are two opposite wolves that are battling it out, and it tends to be difficult, because, you know, as a late diagnosed autistic ADHD, there are no studies about people who look like me, right? And when you think of people who are on the spectrum, I sometimes don't see myself in them, and they don't see myself in them. So it's kind of feels like it's being discredited. But it's not. There are pieces of me that really desire in me, routine and structure, and then the opposite of that is ADHD wants, wants to be impulsive, and feeling the need to make plans, but then feeling the need to have things open and leave it to the day. You know, it's needing things to be in their very specific place. But there's also. Chaos everywhere, laundry piles, every and needing certain sensory things in order for me to be able to focus. You know, things are too loud, if it's too crowded, if it's too bright, too hot, I can't focus. And so all of those normal systems that I had during COVID, they were up in smoke, and so no wonder I was on the floor and couldn't function. And so understanding that the dysregulation and the rumination that I was having then, it caused the anxiety and depression to rise. So there was always this driving factor, and, you know, being able to look back at my childhood and really start to see, oh, there are things that I could do, but they brought me a lot of frustration and discomfort in order to do them and dysregulation. But I had to be a good girl, and had to, you know, make sure you look people in the eye. Make sure you shake their hand Yes, make sure you hug everybody. Know, all of those things that are normal mannerisms that disagreed at me greatly, but I've learned to do them in mask and camouflage, and so I have been open about this, and it's, you know, been this, this constant journey of me learning about myself, because I recognize how I need to structure my day and my energy and so that I can make sure that my cup is filled, And I have, you know, things to give, but it's been important for me to talk about mental health, because when I was younger and having that major depressive episode, and had no one to talk to, and no one was kind of checking in on me, I wish I had Someone who looked like me, a teacher, a mentor, uncle, somebody that was open about their struggles and how that would have been just like a cells for myself to know that I wasn't alone and and I think there are a lot of teenagers, A lot of students who are kind of in that same boat and need to know that it's okay. There are people who understand, especially on the college side, who understand how difficult this can be, and are cheering you on and applauding you for your strength and your resiliency and all of the ways that you're getting through your day that no one may realize how difficult it is for you to do, but we see you, and I think I just needed to do this to talk to my own 16 year old self, so let her know like now I see you and there's we're healing from, from All of that, I Ethan Sawyer 13:01 want to first say, thanks for being willing to share about these things. And I hope that counselors and admission folks are listening too, because I think that this is when I talk to my colleagues, when I talk to my friends. You know, some of us are struggling and and it's not all that like, oh yeah, this was in my past. And then it's just like you said, magically gone. It's like self care and self discovery is an ongoing thing and and I want students to know too. They're like, Hey, folks who are reading your applications are humans too. Exactly, doing our best, and we struggle too. So I appreciate that perspective as well. Christina Lopez 13:40 Yeah, I've been talking about mental health and at a few schools in the New York City area, whenever people ask me to be a keynote, not only to students to recognize that they're not alone, but also to parents to like sometimes, when you have that, that strong kid that's always on top of things, it's always turning in their work and getting those aids check in on them, right, right? You know that sometimes you forget to ask them what's going on emotionally in their world, too. I think it's just been really refreshing to hear feedback from a lot of families that they appreciate someone being willing to talk about it and being open about it. You know, I think it's it sparked a lot of conversations afterwards, which I'm always grateful for. But most importantly, I think it has allow students to start having conversations about, hey, this is something that I struggle with, or maybe I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was a child, and I don't know if I should talk about it, because of the stigma, and I don't want them to look at me as if I'm not capable. Or, you know, I I know my transcript looks a little wonky, but that's because I didn't know I was dyslexic, and now I. I've been diagnosed, and now my transcript looks different. Do I talk about that? You know? And there's a lot of fear of judgment that students have, and so I think that's also impedes students from feeling empowered to tell their truth. I think it's great that we're having this conversation to actually guide students through it so that they can make the best decision for themselves. Ethan Sawyer 15:27 Well, let's, let's shift then I'm, I'm curious. When students ask you, should I talk about my mental health challenges in my college application? What advice do you tend to give? Christina Lopez 15:39 So I tell them, it really is up to them. There's no obligation for you to disclose any of it, but if you feel that it is an important part of your story, then talk about it. But there's a way that you can do so that approaches it from a place of strength, and I think that's sometimes what we like to see. So I always tell students to do a barometer Chat, where I like to call the ashes in the Phoenix, right? Is this something that you are still struggling with? You haven't got a handle on it, you're still emotionally processing it, and you're just not in a point of clarity about it, where you can feel like you're reflecting on it, as if it's something that happens in the past, that maybe you're still in it, you're still in the ashes, right? And in that sense, it's may not be best for you to speak about it, because you still are processing it yourself, right? However, if you are the Phoenix, you are rising from the ashes. You are a shining bird blazing fire across the sky. You overcome it, and so you can you fly away. You're looking back on it, and you can see, oh, wow, okay, how this has shaped me, how this has molded me, how this has made my colors brighter. I can say that I am different because of this experience. You know, I'm always hesitant to say like I'm grateful for it, because sometimes there are things that have gene you may not be so grateful for but you can still say that they have shaped how you see yourself and how you see and so that's a little bit of a barometer check. Where are you in processing it beyond that, I think it's more about what is the story that you're telling here, and is it about the ways in which you've learned about yourself, and maybe it's about your neurodiversity and the ways that you've learned how your brain works and how beautiful it is, and how you see the world differently, and the ways in which that neurodiversity might have a stigma for the world, and there's a sense of shame that you should hide it, but you're proud of it, right? That's a great story to tell. If there is, you know, the ways in which you have built the support systems, the ways that you have figured out your little coping skills. You know, for me, it's hard for me to be motivated to do something that did not. And I know that's typical, you know. And you know, sometimes people discredit neurodiversity of saying, well, everybody does that, yes, ADHD traits, autism traits, they are human traits, but the way that they affect people is different. While one might get frustrated, another person can get completely dysregulated and want to jump out of their skin. For me, it's I can be sitting on a couch knowing that I need to do something. My brain is screaming at me that you need to do this, and I am immobile, and sometimes what I've learned is the way to get me out of that is music. If I can pair it with something that I enjoy, then I will do it. I will wash dishes to music. I will wash my hair to music, all these long, laborious things that I don't want to do, as long as there's music playing, specifically 90s, R and B. You know, Ethan Sawyer 19:20 we're on the same page there Christina Lopez 19:22 exactly. So, you know, these are skills that I've learned about myself, and so if you're approaching your story from that perspective, these are things that I learned that I'm taking with faith and guess. But you know, I think that if you are afraid that if I disclose this, then maybe people want won't, will it knit me, or they're going to think of me differently. Perhaps, however, is that a place you want to be right? You want to be at a place where you know you're going to be able to have support, you know you want to be at a place where they're going to sell. Great, the wonderful gifts and the beauty of your brain and the way that it works. You want to be at a place that wants you, and if that lines up because of a deny decision, then that place wasn't really for you. If you are rooted in telling your truth, then that's fine. If that fear is too great for you, then you don't have to disclose it. So it really is. Where are you in your journey? How are you processing it? And are you okay with whatever outcome? Because you're like, This is me, take me or leave Ethan Sawyer 20:35 me. Great. So one of the things that I think students come in with thinking that their disclosure has to happen, for example, in the personal statement, I'd love for you, though, to talk about what are some different options for where students can disclose if they do decide to disclose in the application. Yeah, Christina Lopez 20:53 first and foremost, it does not need to be your essay. I think your essay can be a wonderful place for you to talk about who you are and the lens that you use to view the worlds. I always say that that's kind of an amalgamation of lots of different things, your your own personal identities, where you grew up, who raised you, who didn't raise you, where you went to school, all the different things that make you you, and how you perceive the world and how others perceive you, and finding a great story a great vehicle to show that, and so your your struggles with mental health or may not be the right kind of story that you want to tell, or it could be a portion of it, you know, maybe it's aligned in that story, but it is not the whole story. There is a section called the Additional Information section, and that's a great place to to talk about anything that you feel will help the admissions committee with context to your application, right? So a great place to just give factual information. Hey, my sophomore year, there was a dip in my grades. I was really struggling with depression and anxiety that year, but I, you know, was able to get support from family and therapists or what have you, and was able to, you know, my grades definitely more reflective in the next semester. Or, Hey, I had a death in the family during this particular time, and I was definitely in morning period, and my grades are, you know, rebounded in the next semester. Whatever that might be, whatever that part of your story is, it's more direct factual. This is what happened. This was the outcome, yet that is totally fine and and a great place to put that. In addition, your counselor letter might be a place to talk about it. Maybe you just give more of the factual information and the additional comment section. But your counselor, if you give her permission, may talk about it a little bit in terms of how it may have they may have seen that growth within some what your teachers may have said, or the ways in which you've engaged in your community because of that and ways in which you've grown over time, they might address it in in their letter as well. And just to give a different perspective, so you get to decide how much or how little and where you want to put it in your application, if at all right, Ethan Sawyer 23:33 and what are some things? Because I know some students are going to wonder, what are some ways that students, quote, unquote, go wrong or like, what are some don'ts when it comes to disclosing what have you seen that has been less helpful when it comes to understanding how this information is going to impact a student's candidacy. For example, Christina Lopez 23:50 I think sometimes not having realizing that you're still on the ashes, right? So I'll give you an example, there was this one student who was talking about the fairly recent death of her father, and he was he had a heart attack, and she wrote her whole essay about heart disease and how she now wants to be a doctor and study heart disease. And it was kind of like a book report on heart disease with, you know, the death of her father kind of being the catalyst to start this, but that was kind of an indication to me that, all right, I'm not really learning about you, I'm learning about heart disease. And the reason that perhaps you've pivoted is because you're not quite ready to touch this third reel of your parents death, because you're still mourning. And it makes sense, because it was only like within the last six months when you realize that you are well the tent to even really talk about it in death that will kind of let you know you're not you're not ready to. Dot com, and then that's okay. Another red flag is you're you're giving too many details. You know, I've had a lot of students talk about eating disorders and the ways in which they've seen their body change, or their thoughts about their body, and you know, the ways that they maybe approached food in that tie, and I think I it's why I always say, like, this isn't meant to be a journal entry or a diary entry. You don't have to disclose all of the thoughts and things that happen during that time. I think there's a way that you can approach your grid. You can keep some of that integrity for yourself, you know. I think sometimes students will approach the essay as you know, I have to have something that really grabs their attention. And sometimes a big thing that grabs our attention is sometimes a very tragic story, and that's not what we're looking for here. It's really, I just want to know about you, right, and so I can learn about you without having to know a lot of those dark thoughts or really, really intimate moments. Can you left out of the essay? I think it's more of, how did you grow from this? How did you overcome this? How has this changed you, versus telling me about what happened in in those moments? Ethan Sawyer 26:32 Yeah, I really am just nodding as you're talking. You know, the structure that I'll sometimes talk to students about is like challenges and effects, you know, what did you do about it? And then what did you learn that admission officers aren't looking to know. It's not like you got into these challenges. You had this tough stuff happen, therefore we want you at our campus, right? It's like, how did you metabolize those experiences? Like you said, What did you do? What did you learn? And I think sometimes it's that students haven't spent a lot of time brainstorming other options, because they're faced with what's the biggest you know, someone's telling you, tell your deepest story, and it's like, well, this is the thing I've been facing the last two years. So I definitely have to write about this. And to those students who are listening, I want to say there are other possibilities. As Christina was saying, that things that make up your identity and who you are and what you're about, what you care about, your superpowers. We'll put a guide linked below in the show notes to like, help you brainstorm some of those things. So if you're feeling like you're listening and you're like, but what else am I going to write about? Stay tuned there. There are other ideas, other options, Christina Lopez 27:35 right? And I think that's really important because, you know, sometimes there is this push to, like, tell me about your trauma, and you're like, No, because they don't recognize how devastating it can be to someone to have to dredge all of that up again, especially if you haven't healed from it. This is really about being able to talk about your growth and who you are, rather than this really difficult moment in your life. I was working with a student years ago during a college access program who had this wonderful story, this beautiful, tragic story of crossing the border with her mother. She was a child. She was ill, she had a heart defect, and her and her mother crossed the border and seeking asylum so that she could get medical attention. And she's very incredibly, you know, open about the story, but it was more about this particular time and and crossing that wasn't necessarily her story, with a lot of what her mother had told her, she was very young, and, you know, being able to say hey, she was very and she was also very nervous about telling this story, because she felt exposed, and then she felt very vulnerable for a variety of different reasons. But someone had told her, No, this is the story you tell. This was the defining moment in your life. And I was like, you don't have to tell the story if you don't feel comfortable telling it. Is it your story to tell? Partially, yes, but it was also, you know, is there a way that we can approach the story, or the story we are in a way that still allows you to feel safe and telling it right? Because it was difficult for her to bring that up, it didn't make her feel safe, and wanting her to feel that she's able to submit something that she feels is truly reflective of her, but she feels safe enough to do so. And so when we're guiding students through the essay process, it's also being able to recognize where is the student in in this story. Are they? Do they feel safe enough to tell it, and if they don't, then it's not a place to push Yeah, Ethan Sawyer 30:06 here's a question. So what do you generally look for when you're reading the college essay, when you're sitting down to read the personal statement, what do you what are you looking for? What are you hoping to learn? Christina Lopez 30:19 Couple of things. One, obviously, I'm looking to see how well does the student rent, you know, how have they structured the essay, their writing, their grammar? Is the student going to be ready for the rigors of a liberal arts curriculum? So that's one thing. Majority of the applicant pool, yes, have checked that box second quadrant. What? How do I feel like I've learned about the student and how they think about their curiosity. Part of this is also thinking about who are they going to be in an academic classroom? Are they going to be someone who thinks deeply, who probes a little bit more, who is going to engage in those conversations? What are, what are their experiences and their perspectives that they're bringing into this academic space where I'm not just assuming you're not coming into a space, especially at a liberal arts college, where a professor is just brain dumping things into a lecture, you are actively creating knowledge in that classroom. All of the students are participating in that, and everyone is a scholar, right? And so being able to see your curiosity and and the way your gears move and just how you will contribute to that space, and some of the things that I'm looking for in that essay. And then, you know, I think there's also just a piece of, I'm building a community, right? I'm and I think there's an assumption that, oh, one, everyone has to be a leader. Well, leadership is not always synonymous with the title. There are many different ways that you can approach leadership and leadership qualities, and there's also those aspects of like, Are you a kind person? Are you, you know? Are you compassionate? Are you someone who think that's community minded? Are you someone who builds bridges across populations of people who may not have be able to see eye to eye and be able to manage those difficult conversations? Are you someone who recognizes them? Maybe you grew up in a bubble, and I want to see what's outside of this, and it's important to me to learn about other people's perspectives, because that's going to be how I grow. Those are the type of people that I know are going to be great within the community, and what are the stories and perspectives and experiences that you're bringing that are going to uplift the others in this community as well. So sometimes it's not so much you're reflecting on other things that I've seen in the application. You're telling me about an activity that you've done, or what have you, but really it's how am I getting a peek into how you see the world? And sometimes it's not necessarily about how you see the world, but also for some, especially thinking about me as a black woman, sometimes I have to take in how others see me as how I you know that my salient identities sometimes will dictate how I move in the world, right, and how that becomes a part of my story, or Not all of those, I always think about those three factors when I'm reviewing applications. So I'd Ethan Sawyer 33:46 love to hear about what are some of your favorite college essay topics or personal statements that really stood out to you. And maybe you gave me an example of one that was about a challenge, a student overcoming a challenge, or set of challenges, and then one that wasn't about a challenge. So I call these sometimes a narrative structure and then a montage structure. So what do you got? So Christina Lopez 34:06 again, it's about that perspective of the lens that you're using to view the world. And one was a student, she identified as Latina and low income, and she talked about her her kitchen table, and I was a full bore, packed wooden table, kind of worn and weathered, but it was the place where she saw her mother sit every month and do the household bills, household finances, and the essay question was about that bridge into adulthood and talking about that from your perspective. And so she watched as her brother turned 16, how her mother brought him into the conversation and would sit him down at the table with her and give him a. Perspective of like, okay, this is how much we have coming in, and this bill's going out, and this is what it takes to run this household, or what have you. And then the level of maturity and perspective that it brought him of the value of things within, you know, his world, and how he can help and contribute, or what have you. And she talked about how this table was, then this bridge to adulthood, and how honored she felt when she was invited to sit at the table and be a part of this conversation, and the ways that she felt connected to her family because of that, in recognizing like, oh, I now have a part in making sure that this household continues and it continues to build on this wonderful foundation that my mother has built. And I just thought that was just a beautiful essay to talk about how she valued her family, how she saw this bridge into adulthood with that meant for her and in her context, but but also just a sense of her own views of growth and maturity as well. The other was from a student who went to an arts high school, and she was a painter, and she talked about just on her daily commute, and the things that she saw and she envisioned little portraits and interactions that she saw people that she she was a people watcher. She was always observing people and just recognizing the light and dark and beauty of life and how that shaped her art. To people who were, you could tell that there was, you know, maybe they were on a first date, and there was a little tension between them, and the nervous tension, and how she, kind of, like, saw that painting and the colors, and then another with a mother and her child, and they were kind of leaning on each other and sleeping, you know, and how she was able to kind of capture these moments in the way that she said that, you know, like I would see them as as blue, and I saw this other couple of shades of pink or what have you, and it was just about, this is my lens that I use, and this is the way that I think about art and moving every day, and that I'm able to now come to college and have these wonderful experiences that are going to continue to build me and the way in which I see the beauty around and I was like, that's a really interesting perspective of thinking about the world around you. Ethan Sawyer 37:33 A question I get from students is some version of, is it better to write about challenges? Or they'll ask me something like, Well, what if I don't have a big challenge to write about? And I know this because, you know, I, you know, see amazing essays that aren't about challenges. But what do you say to students who are feeling like they they feel like they need a big challenge to write about? Christina Lopez 37:55 No, I don't think that your challenges have to define who you are, and even if you do feel like there is one that has defined where it doesn't mean that you have to write. So no, it's not. It's not about writing about the difficulties you overcome. And so it's being able to give the the admissions committee a good perspective on who you are and what you're bringing to our community. Ethan Sawyer 38:22 What advice would you give to counselors who are coaching students through this process? What questions should they be asking students and what should they be assessing? I Christina Lopez 38:35 think first and foremost, I want to implore counselors to get away from this idea, like, let's explore, explore your trauma, you know, and they will never approach it in that way. But like, you know, understanding that if you start from a place of what are some of the things you've had to overcome in your life, for some that's where they might go and to know that that's not the only direction that that question has to go in. You know, being able to be a guide and say like, Hey, we don't have to talk about that, I think, is really important. It sometimes it's very relieving to a student to know that they don't have to talk about that if they're not, especially if they don't feel safe or they don't feel ready to do so, I think being able to have them think about what is something that you truly care about and why? What is something that you've experienced in these last few years that has been kind of a defining moment for you. Sometimes it's that challenge might have been dealing with an aspect of their identity where they're kind of feeling like they're straddling two worlds. Mainly, it was a challenge that they had in school, that they had to overcome a social thing, or what have you like. Doesn't have to be like the big thing. I think helping them to find, to recognize that they have a wealth of stories to tell is part of of this journey of self discovery. Allow them to free write whenever they want to write about sometimes you might find that there are three or four ideas in one little free write session, you know, being able to extrapolate wool from that that this is an exploration process. It is a reflective process, but students tend to find the best stories when they feel free to explore all Ethan Sawyer 40:37 aspects of who they are. What advice would you give to students who are considering, well, let's just say students who are working on their their college essays and applications, as many students who are listening to this will Christina Lopez 40:48 be number one. Start early. I think being able to start drafting out your essays in the summer before your senior year will be really hopeful in terms of just time management, because by doing some of that work over the summer, you might actually have a very solid working draft by the time you get to school in the fall. And let me tell you that fall semester goes by very quick. If you're applying early decision somewhere. By November, it's like tomorrow, and December comes very quickly after that. So in addition to all of the work that you're doing, usually, senior year is your most rigorous year, and so you can kind of get some of that work on it the way, it makes it a whole lot easier. Same for your supplement essay. And do want leave supplement essays until the end, they are essential. So the process most will have their supplements posted by the time the application goes live in August, so you can start working on those towards the end of the summer as well. Get a team together. I always say your team should have three people, someone who knows you really well. That does not need to be a parent, because sometimes some of the things you may feel that you want to discuss in your essay may not be things that you feel ready to tell your parents, and that's totally fine, but a friend, a mentor, a confidant from other family member that you trust who knows you and can say, Does this really sound like you? Are you really being your full authentic self here? One who knows writing really well, someone who can do that spell check, someone who can do the grammar, someone who can think about the structure of the essay, but someone who is not editing out your voice in doing so, right? Making sure that this still sounds like it's coming from you and not an adult is a big difference. I can tell the voice of a 4050, year old person versus a 17 year old. We want to make sure it still sounds like you. And then the last person is someone who knows the college process, so that could be a CEO counselor, it could be a college counselor, be a guidance counselor, etc, but someone who understands what colleges are looking for an essay, understands the writing and reflective essay, and can help you structure it and think about those stories in a way that is going to make the most impact in your application. And the last thing I would say is, you know, we we live in an era where we talk about everything on social media, from what did you eat this morning and what was our perspective on this show, and we're given all of the detail, the things that happened to us, and that's fine, but doesn't necessarily mean to be in your college essay. This is not a till all book. It is not a journal entry. It is not a diary entry. It is not an IG life. It is a short snippet of who you are and an experience that has shaped you. And so again, all of those extra details don't necessarily need to be there. If you feel that you are divulging too many details, you can always pull it back. Amazing. So one of the things that's really important for students to know is how we are assessing your essays or additional comments section if you are choosing to write about a mental health challenge or we are a we're all human, some of us with our own mental health challenges, Whether they are own or other loved ones. And so there is always the sense of of understanding, compassion that where we're approaching in reading students stories and care that we take in your stories, and we're not in a place to judge. I think what we are looking. For is how the student talk about it. Where are they in their journey? Do we have the support that the student will need to thrive at this institution? Does the student talk about ways in which they've created that support system for themselves? Do we feel that they are independent and able to recreate those support circles away from what they've they've known? And I think it's, it's more of an assessment of, is this going to be an environment where the student is going to thrive, and never a matter of how our our judgments on or our biases on mental health. I think one of the things that many admissions counselors go through are just our implicit bias training and the ways in which are the way we see the world can sometimes come through in applications, and how we can try to mitigate that in a variety of different ways. And so mental health just being one of them. And so I think it's important to know that we really are thinking about, do we have what the student will need in order to grow and thrive? Are they able, and I'm Will they be open and willing to take advantage of it as well? It's really more of how we're thinking about it. Beautiful. Ethan Sawyer 46:26 Christina, what do you hope that families will keep in mind as they're navigating this college admission process? Christina Lopez 46:32 So one thing more I always say is that college acceptance is not a trophy to be one. There is, you know, for parents as teenagers. And I can attest to this, as I, you know, my whole teenage years, I'm embarrassed by my parents. I don't want to be around them, you know, their pain, etc. But I'm always watching they're always watching you they are learning how to navigate the world through you, sometimes in a very quiet way, they're peeking around the corner right, and the ways in which you approach this college process, they will manage right. So if you are calm, if you are a grounding source for them. If you are reminding them that they are wonderful in who they are, they're, you know all of their accomplishments, their mistakes, the everything that makes up who they are is enough, and by the time they get to these college acceptances, the yeses and the NOS will just be that yes and no and not a validation of everything they've done in high school and who they are and what they will accomplish in the future, because it's none of those things, but they will learn that from you and how you approach it. I always say, you know this is going to be their last year at home. You want to be able to create moments that they will want to pack in their suitcase, to take with them, that remind them that home is a safe place, and if that year is full of stress and drama around the college process, that's what they're going to remember, and that's where they're going to try to be running away from. So if it's necessary to have a designated time, maybe once a week, to have these conversations, they're in the driver's seat and you are support. I sometimes will say you're in the passenger seat, but sometimes parents need to be in the back seat. You need to be in the back seat. You know, being able to if you're going on a college tour and you're going on a college campus, don't share your thoughts first, because you recognize how influential your voice is let them process it first, and then, you know, talk about it, reminding that they are needing this process. And sometimes they do need a little push, because they're a little, you know, slow to launch, but it's a push and not a drag. And I think for students, it's a reminder that every grade that you got, every award, every accomplishment, every leadership title that was for you and you alone, not for any sort of validation from this college process. If you don't feel like that was an accomplishment just for you and you're doing it for college, and stuff, because high school isn't just a stepping stone College. High School, in and of itself, a chapter in your life, and should be valued as such. It is a place where you learn about who you are and what you care about, and create friendships that last and. Everything can't be about looking forward, and especially when you get to senior year. I remember my senior year, I couldn't wait to be a senior. I'm running school. I you know, people are looking for me. I'm popular, what have you. But if you're so worried about the college process, it's going to respond, you're going to be so stressing, you're not even going to enjoy it. So be present. Enjoy where you are, knowing that these acceptances are just going to determine where your next goal is. So just keep it in the right perspective. Speaker 1 50:30 Christina, thank you. Thank you so much for your time. I'm glad Christina Lopez 50:34 Thank you for having me. Ethan Sawyer 50:39 Thanks friends again for listening. Don't forget to check out part three in our series where I interview Emmy meetfeld, author of The memoir accepted, who discusses both in her book, but also in our conversation, what it was like to navigate mental health disclosures from the student perspective. If you'd like the written version, check out the show notes at college. Sa guy.com/podcast where you'll see a really comprehensive guide with lots of examples analyzed, so you can see, practically speaking, how and where to navigate disclosures in the college application process. Or, I guess you could just Google mental health disclosures College Essay Guy, and that'll probably get you there too. Be well and stay curious. You. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
