Show Notes
On today’s episode, Ethan is joined by Amanda Miller, who got her start in financial aid through the College Advising Corps at Davidson College in 2014. A few thousand students, several resources, and dozens of financial aid presentations later, Amanda’s an independent financial aid specialist and college adviser who also serves as the financial aid go-to lady for the Matchlighters program and someone we consider to be a part of the extended College Essay Guy family.
Ethan and Amanda discuss:
How do people identify the best ways to pay for college?
What are some things that people who win scholarships do differently?
What’s the most important thing a student can do to make college affordable and avoid going into tons of debt?
How can you learn which colleges are likely to be affordable to you?
Myths on topics ranging from financial aid appeals to applying out of state
Play-by-Play
1:45 – Intro
2:49 – How do people pay for college?
4:39 – Where does most of the money come from when it comes to paying for college?
5:28 – What are the three types of scholarships?
7:28 – How do students win scholarships?
10:38 – How does the FAFSA help students pay for college?
15:21 – How do students avoid taking on too much debt?
19:23 – How do students figure out what kinds of colleges will be affordable?
27:30 – What are some of Amanda’s favorite affordability tools for students and parents?
29:43 – Amanda busts some college affordability myths
37:33 – How can families determine if college is truly worth the cost?
41:42 – What is the difference between “cost of attendance” and “net cost”?
44:04 – Why should most people still complete the FAFSA?
47:57 – What is a reasonable amount of debt to graduate with?
50:21 – What steps should students take to figure out their financial plan for college?
51:52 – Closing thoughts
Resources
Financial Aid Advising with Amanda Miller (The Counselor Lady) Meeting Request
How to Make College Affordable Mini-Course for U.S. Students and Families
How to Make College Affordable Mini-Course for College Counselors and Educators
College Scorecard – US Department of Education
TuitionFit – Mark Salisbury
The College Finder: Choose the School That’s Right for You! Fourth Edition – By Steven R. Antonoff, Ph.D.
Podcast Episodes:
121: Which Schools Are the Most Generous With Financial Aid? (US Version) – Jeff Levy, financial aid expert
122: Which Schools Are the Most Generous With Financial Aid? (International Version) – Jennie Kent, international financial aid expert
411: Finding Your Why, What a Liberal Arts Education Really Is, and How to Figure out What You Actually Want – Ann Marano (Colleges That Change Lives)
Show transcript
Ethan Sawyer 0:08
Hi friends, and welcome back to the college sa guy Podcast. I'm real excited today because I've been wanting to do this episode, which is a crash course in paying for college for a while, and because it's with one of my favorite folks in the college admission world, Amanda Miller, whom you'll meet in just a few minutes. So first we get into how do people actually pay for college? Where are the scholarships, and what do the people who get the scholarships do? What's the most important thing a student can do to make college affordable and to avoid going into tons of debt? There are two questions that you can ask to learn, broadly speaking, which colleges are likely to be affordable to you, and we'll share what those are. And then we bust some myths on everything from appealing financial aid packages to the idea that you can't apply out of state because it's too expensive, which is just not true. My guest, as I mentioned, is Amanda Miller, who got her start in financial aid through Davidson College's Advising Corps in 2014 a few 1000 students, several resources and dozens of financial aid presentations later, Amanda hasn't lost her love of explaining the ins and outs of financial aid to pretty much anybody who will listen, including grocery store clerks, as I hear it. She's an independent financial aid specialist and college advisor who also happens to be our financial aid go to Lady for the match letters program. And she's someone I consider to be part of the extended College Essay Guy family. I love how down to earth Amanda is, how clearly she communicates what she knows. And I hope you do too. Hi, Amanda, welcome to the podcast.
Amanda Miller 1:48
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. So
Ethan Sawyer 1:51
can you tell the folks what is it that you even like about financial aid? Like, why have you devoted some goodly portion of your life to thinking, writing, talking about it. Well,
Speaker 1 2:01
I'm a nerd at heart, and I love helping people, so this is a way I can use my nerdy power to to help folks take things that are very, very complicated seemingly and simplify them and get them right to the heart of what they need quickly. So it's a stressful period in people's life. So much time and energy is spent on the on the Where should I go and how do I get in? And it's really the financial piece that's going to ripple effect for 10 years after they graduate. So it's a really important thing to talk about, and it just needs a little more love and attention. And I like to give it to folks.
Ethan Sawyer 2:34
Yeah, I think it's really one of your superpowers. When I think about the content you deliver, it's so I just appreciate your concision and your ability to, as you said, Put complex thoughts into simple terms. So I'm going to ask you start with a really big question, which is like, how do people pay for college? Break it down for us? Well, I'm
Speaker 1 2:53
actually going to start by stealing a line from one of my mentors, day, jelinas, who was the head of financial aid at dates in college for years, and he said folks pay from their past, their present and their future, so savings and current income and loans are the three ways. But those are the ones that most people you know. That's kind of the boring answer. Most people like to talk about Gift Aid. So Gift Aid is everything else. That's the grants you get because you need the money to pay for college. That's the scholarships you get, because you're awesome in some way, and the College wants to entice you to go there. So there's really a lot of ways that you pay for college, but what it comes down to is planning. Is starting. Some folks do that by starting saving early, but it could just mean for some families starting junior year and thinking about what that college list is look, what looks is going to look like, and what financial safety schools they might have, one other way is, I would say by working that's kind of the unsung hero of paying for college. So would be work colleges, employer to intuition, reimbursement, military service, tuition benefits. There's lots and lots of different kind of niche ways you can pay for college. So scholarships are the thing. Get a lot of attention, but it all comes together. So when you look at the end result of how people pay for college, it's really a mix of everything. It's not purely savings or purely loans or purely grants. For most people, it's a mix of just all of it, what they can contribute themselves, what they get from helping and what they get from working, all boiled together, and that's how most people make it work. So
Ethan Sawyer 4:26
I want to talk about scholarships in just a second, because that's what most folks are aware of or think of when it comes to paying for college. But let's bust a myth for us, if we can, because I think that some people get this wrong. Where does most of the money come from when it comes to paying for college,
Speaker 1 4:42
hands down, the institutions themselves, like I've heard numbers like 92% 95% I don't know if anyone's ever actually pegged a number, but it's clear most of the money is coming from the colleges. Fun fact, the average discount rate for private institutions and. The US, private colleges, it's 52% and it keeps climbing. So whatever sticker price you see, most people aren't paying that. So whether it's a discount or an actual merit scholarship or whatever, most of the money is in the colleges themselves. That's why it's so important to investigate how the colleges you love if if they're gonna love you back financial aid, speaking, financially speaking, like, are they places that are gonna award you scholarships or grants? So that's where most of it is, absolutely
Ethan Sawyer 5:30
great. And I know there's that belief, you know, that you know it's gonna come from the Coca Cola scholarship or the, you know, the duct tape scholarship, but yeah, as, as, as you're saying, it's really the schools so, but let's talk about scholarships for a minute. Where are they and how do students get them? Oh, great
Speaker 1 5:46
question. This is the question I wish everyone would start. So if you type scholarships into Google, you're going to get just completely overwhelmed. There's just so much information. So I like to divide and conquer. So when I think about scholarships, there's three types. That's the institutional one themselves, for those you look on the college's website and there's actually financial aid advisors sitting there students awaiting your call. They would love to talk to you about all the money their institution could potentially have for you. The second type is local scholarships, and this can include state to a certain extent. So money that's for people who live where you live and your high school counselors should know all about those. And then private scholarships. So these are, as you said, Nathan the Stuck at Prom, $10,000 duct tape scholarship, the Coca Cola scholarship, the jack King cook Foundation Scholarship, these big programs, or they're either programs where they're, you know, there's a handful of those where, if you get them, they carry you all the way through. But most private scholarships are what I call one shots or snapshots. It's you get the money one time, and then you got to figure out what you're going to do for sophomore, junior, senior year. But there's, there's a lot of those, but they're kind of the wild west of scholarships. It's needle and a haystack findings. That's why I really like institutional and local, is it's really clear if it's for you, or it's not. Rather than spending hours and hours searching the internet for random scholarships, and when
Ethan Sawyer 7:06
you say institutional, well, you just tell folks who are like, wait, what does that even mean? What does institutional me so
Speaker 1 7:11
institutional? It's It's the place that you are going to college. So community colleges have their scholarships. The four year colleges have their scholarships. So and they come in a variety of forums, but the that's money that the college has on tap for students that they can assign to students who are going to their institutions, to their colleges, right?
Ethan Sawyer 7:31
So give us some tips on some things that students can do to win these scholarships, like the or maybe better put, is like the students that you see when those scholarships, what are they doing? Oh,
Speaker 1 7:43
they are Intrepid. They are asking questions, and they are seeking actively. Scholarships can be something that, through happenstance, kind of falls in your lap. I was talking about discount scholarships, where, you know it's, oh, here's $20,000 because you have a pulse and you got in. Like, those are there. But the people who are like, winning scholarships that are competitive or maybe that not everybody knows about, they're starting early. They're looking end of junior year, Junior summer, to find out what their institutions officer offer. They're asking their high school counselors what kinds of scholarships they might want to look into senior year. So they're starting this process before. One of the most heartbreaking conversations I have with folks is when it's April, May of senior year, and then they start looking for scholarships because they've gotten the bill. All the scholarships were six months before earlier. A lot of institutions who have those early action deadlines. If you don't meet those deadlines, it doesn't matter how competitive you are. You may not get a scholarship because it's tied to that deadline. So that's it. He is. There's no such thing as like early bird gets the mark along those lines. It's actually applying. A lot of students plan to apply for scholarships, but they never give that plan legs. They never actually go out and start applying, because they're not sure where to start. So making sure they have a plan in place, which we talk about on our resource, which I'm not sure if we'll share that now or later. But other is list others to help. One of the best things that students who win scholarships do is they make it very clear early on that they are looking and they're actively applying. So their parents, they ask them to look for certain things. They ask their counselor. They're they're listing others to help. I call it the assembly line strategy, getting parents or a trusted adults to find them. And as they find them, pass them to you and you fill them out, because trying to find the scholarships and apply for them, that's double the work. So if you can help someone help you out finding them, that's great. The other thing tips I would give that are really simple are recycle. You don't need all these scholarships that require resumes and essays. You don't have to start from scratch every time. Recycling is excellent. Once you've written the why I need the scholarship essay, you can use it over and over and over again. One of my favorite things is on local scholarships was asks you about your activities, just to put C attached resume, and then just staple it, and then it's done. And then five. One would be apply strategically. I had a student who said that he'd applied for 10 scholarships. And I said, that's great. Tell me about them. And it turned out they were all you know, enter your email to win $10,000 like they weren't really targeted. I would rather he have applied for two or three that were for him, like Hispanics and stem in North Carolina, that's really targeted. So it's better to apply strategically than just to random ones. I'm not saying you can't put the $10,000 put your email in one. That's that's fine. It's just not the best use of your time. Looking for ones that are really specific to you are a better use.
Ethan Sawyer 10:40
This is great. So besides scholarships, I know there are grants and loans, and I know that FAFSA has something to do with that. Will you just explain to us how, how that whole thing works, and that's all. I know that that's they're like, a lot of whole things, but like, give us the sort of Crash Course version.
Speaker 1 10:57
Crash Course version. Okay, so the federal government has set aside money for people who need money to pay for college, to pay for college, but if they just asked everyone, do you need money for college? Everyone would say yes. So how do they figure out exactly who really needs the money and who feels like they need the money, and how do they sort that out? So how they do that is with the FAFSA, so the Free Application for Federal Student Aid, that's the form that then takes all your information, your parents, age, your parents income, your savings, all that boils it down into one nice, neat little number called the Student Aid index. Besides your GPA, it's the single most important number in knowing how much money you're going to get for college. So GPA test scores are to scholarships, what sai Student Aid index is to grants. So that number is what tells colleges where you fall on the I need money spectrum. So the lower your Sai, the more aid you need, and therefore the more aid you're eligible to get. So everybody who fills out the basket gets the consolation prize of loans. It doesn't matter if you if your sai is a million dollars, which technically can't be, because that would bust the digits, but whatever like, if it was all nines, you would still be offered a loan, and it would be an unsubsidized loan, so it accrue interest. But you know, given what interest rates are, it's not a bad deal for most folks, and it's about 27 and $27,000 plus interest that you could take out over the course of four years. So no matter what you get that some folks also qualify, because they have need for something called subsidized loans. These are lovely. So if you were taking notes on this, I tell students, unsubsidized loans kind of gets like a meth face next to it. Subsidized loans happy face, because it is interest free while you're in school. Fantastic. Now, loans are kind of boring, and there is one other kind of loan, but I'll save on that the main thing, the main attraction of the FAFSA and where folks kind of get confused about, oh, I'm not going to fill out the fast because I won't get money, is they're thinking about the Pell Grant. So the Pell Grant is that pot of money that the federal government has, and those with the highest need are, quote, Pell eligible and can get awarded some aid. The max Pell grant last year was about $7,400 so in my State of North Carolina, that more than pays for your community college, like that's all paid for, and then the rest you take to pay for books and gas and everything. So there's no reason everyone should be able to afford Community College where I am, but the Pell Grant could be, obviously, be used anywhere. It can be used to any accredited institution. So by filling out the FAFSA, you could have $7,400 to take wherever you are. But the thing about this is that's not the only money the FAFSA helps you get. So yes, there's loans. This is the Pell Grant, and that's the federal aid. But what that sai does is the colleges see that number, right? It's not just for this federal aid. And your state higher education group, you know, CF and C where I am. Other states have other things, but those institutions also see this number. So your state aid and the college grant aid are also dependent on this forum. So even if you don't get a Pell Grant, you could still get money from the state or from the college itself, but if you don't file a FAFSA, you're just saying, Well, I don't want any of that money. So that's why institutions really, really push students to students and parents to complete the FAFSA is because they want you to pick the government's pocket first before you come to them and ask for money. They want to make sure you've maxed out aid everywhere else first. So that's one of the big mess I try to bust every year is, you know, folks don't qualify for the Pell and they think the FAFSA was was a bust, and it's like, no, no, no. As long as your Sai, your student aid index is a smaller number than what your college costs, you could still be a winner. You could still get grant aid. It just needs to be lower than that. If
Ethan Sawyer 14:57
anyone's listening and you're like, how do I remember all this? Or you're like. Frantically taking notes. I want to assure you that Amanda mentioned there was a resource that we're going to link to in the show notes. We'll link to a resource that walks y'all through this stuff. And it's like a, you know, sort of step by step guide. So stay tuned. Don't stress. Let it wash over you. And, you know, sort of take what's what makes sense, and if you know, if you want to look at the resource after you can so let's zoom back a little bit Amanda from the practicals of it. And I want to know what are some of the important things that a student can do to make college affordable, and in particular, how do they avoid going into tons and tons of debt?
Speaker 1 15:34
That is such a great question. Student loan debt is such a big topic. And what I would say is there's two main reasons that people end up in unmanageable college debt, because debt is a tool, right? If you can graduate without it, that's wonderful, but a lot of people do, and it's okay, but unmanageable college debt, the amount of college debt that you're not going to be able to pay back before your own kids go to college. Kind of debt is really one of two things, either extreme optimism about future prospects of what you're going to make and like how much your the value of your degree is going to pay off, or just a lack of understanding of what other options were out there in the first place. I know a thing that was told to me in high school is college is worth whatever price, just take out the loans. And that may have been true, maybe back in the 80s, when college tuition was not nearly as high as it is. Now, that's just not reasonable anymore. I don't like I can't, in good conscious advise a family to take out $100,000 for an undergraduate degree. That's just, that's my philosophy. I can't do it. My rule of thumb is to tell folks to take out whatever your first year salary will be after you graduate. Two thirds of that. That's that's a reasonable amount of time. So how do I avoid this? How do families like avoid having this extreme optimism or a lack of understanding by being intentional. So what do I mean by that? I mean look things up for yourself, students and parents, taking the word of someone, a college financial aid office, person, your counselor, all well intentioned, but sitting down and running the numbers for yourself of what will this look like and what is the value, how much that will I be in if I pursue this? Is very important. So that brings me back to that April May discussion I often have with parents is every school year you are admitted to will give you an award letter. I know that Grandma wants to buy you that sweater for Christmas, for where you're going to go to college. And like they want, everyone wants to cheer you on and have you make your decision. So it's just like, boom, settled and you move on. But it's so imperative that you take those financial aid award letters, compare them side by side, because what you think you're reading may not be you know what the actual deal is? You most people just look at the cost number. They look at the what you're getting number, and they subtract, and they say, great, not realizing that what you're getting could include loans, especially when they're really sneaky and stick Parent Plus loans in there, which aren't guaranteed. That's heartbreaking. I had a student bring me an award letter and said they were getting $40,000 and I looked and $30,000 if that was a PLUS loan, and I was like, That's sneaky. That's not okay. So that's one of the reasons that people end up in unmanageable debt. Is just not vet is just not reading the fine print, not reading the and it's not really fine print, like, if you sit down, we've even got that analyzer, which I'm sure Ethan can link to, of like, how to walk through comparing these so that you know what you're getting into ahead of time. And then the other thing would be to just not say, we'll figure it out later. That's kind of credit card thinking of, credit card, thinking of, Oh, I'm just going to rack it up for Christmas, and we'll think of how we're going to pay for it's how are we going to contribute? How are we going What are we going to expect to earn? Just mapping out realistically what it will look like. But I'll say this. I'm not trying to rain on eBay's parade. There are, there are wonderful things. So if you are set and determined, like I one student who is set and determined to go to a certain SEC school. It's out of state for him, and I'm like, well, let's see what we can do to make this happen. So he started at the end of junior year looking for every grant, every scholarship, every level of aid to try to make this institution work. But in the end, he's also got on his list another similar school that would love to give him money, and it's comparable in almost just about every way. He just didn't think about there being another school that was a great fit for him, that also was affordable. I love
Ethan Sawyer 19:26
this, and I'm I'm thinking that there are probably some folks who are listening, who are brand new to this process, and who are trying to figure out, well, how do I even know what range I'm in for what's affordable to me? Will you and we, you know, we've talked about this framework before that I that I love so much. Will you give folks just sort of a general way of thinking about the kinds of colleges that are likely to be affordable to them? Yes,
Speaker 1 19:53
absolutely. So I think it was about my second or third year into advising. That I just kind of had this idea about, and it came from having a math brain of like, these quadrants, like, so if you imagine X, Y axis, on one axis, it's a student's academic ability. So like, how awesome are their grades? Or how not awesome are their grades? And that's a relative thing, right? Because awesome or getting into one institution could be different from another, but just generally speaking, and then the other axis is, which is, how much do your family, how rich is your family? We'll, we'll just narrow down that. Like, is your family happily going to write a check for whatever you would like for college? Or they're saying you got this good luck? Kiddo, like, where on the on the the range? My family was the good luck. Kiddo, a state of the range so,
Ethan Sawyer 20:41
so it's like, let me say it back to you. So it's like, yeah, it's on the top is like, grades are awesome. On the bottom, grades are not awesome. On the right family is rich. On the left family is not rich. Yes, got it,
Speaker 1 20:53
yes. So think about where you fall on this and where you fall on in each of these quadrants is going to determine which colleges are going to be financially friendly to you? So as I said, there's all sorts of talk about, you know, social fit and academic fit. This is a completely separate discussion of like, where is going to be affordable? So I would say that in state institutions, those in state public colleges, are great financial fit for just about everybody. So you know, it, no matter where you are, that's a great place to start for most students. If you have great grades and you're in a state that gives that has merit aid, like I'm thinking of Georgia, hope or Friday or Florida, Bright Futures, then those are excellent and those are hard to beat. If you're in a state like North Carolina, it has state based grants. Then if you're in the good luck kid, not so great, not so rich, then that could be a great thing too, because even at private institutions, you could get eight so on the flip side, out of state, public institutions. So public institutions, public colleges, universities that are not in the state that you live in, typically are harder to figure out financially, because the whole point of a public institution is to serve the students in their state. The whole reason state. The whole reason that your tuition is lower for in state is because your parents live in that state and pay taxes in that state, right? So by crossing the state lines, it just it's an uphill battle, because they don't have as many things set aside for you. Now, there are exceptions. There are absolutely exceptions. Great, one University of Central Arkansas, look, if you live on campus, great you get in state tuition. If you Tennessee gives it in Alabama, give it for test scores, Wyoming as well, like, so if you have really great test scores, they'll bring it down in state tuition. I think Alabama even has, like, if you have a perfect test score and a 4.0 plus GPA, they give you a full ride with with bonuses. Like, it's it's pretty grand. So there are ways to work around it, but that's the out of state publics. Their Their goal is not to serve out of state students necessarily. They're looking to those out of state students, and they woo them because they know it's more expensive and they know that they'll make more. I mean, they're still trying to build a well rounded class, so in admissions, people, I'm not I'm not pooping, they're still trying to get lots of perspectives, and there's lots of perspectives, and there's lots of reasons they would want out of state students, but from a financial aid perspective, it's a little bit harder. So I'm going to split private colleges into two groups, private colleges that are less difficult to get into and private colleges that are tough to get into. So I'm going to define tough as less than a 25% admission rate. So I had a student in one of my very first classes I worked with, and she got into our state flagship, and she also got into this little school called Gardner Webb. And at the state flagship, she was just kind of one of many. She was gonna have to apply to get into their their business program. It was pre business, but at Gardner Webb, they offered her a full ride, like top Merit Scholarship, and she was already into the business program. So the question for her was, Do you pay in state tuition to go here, or do you take the full ride and get, you know, the red carpet rolled out for you here, like, which, which way do you want to go? So with students with really great grades, it's more of a matter of, do you want that? Do you really want that more competitive environment, or do you like being a big fish in a small pond so it can pay off for those less selected institutions? And it's not that they get any less of an education. They're getting a great education. These small private colleges are the unsung heroes of the higher end world, and they do great work. A great resource for this would be the colleges that change lives. If you've not heard about that, they are fantastic, smaller, lesser known schools that are doing really well by students.
Ethan Sawyer 24:31
Okay? And quick, quick plug for another episode. We Yeah, we have an earlier episode of folks Listen, go to the college as a guy.com/podcast page. And we've got a recent episode with Anne Morano from colleges that change lives. So fun fact.
Speaker 1 24:44
Oh, that's fabulous. She's so great. Okay, yeah, so with the tougher to get into schools. So this is probably the thing that I have to break to parents more often than just about anything else, when it comes to how affordable schools are. Going to be. So a family will come in and they will talk to me about getting scholarships at Duke, getting scholarships at Pomona, getting scholarships at these institutions that are tough to get into in the first place. And so the conversation we have is I pull up the Financial Aid page and I show them what scholarships are available, and then we talk about what the average admission profile is for that institution. And then I show them a really great resource that I believe you had Jeff on here before Jeff Levy, yes, I think so. Yes, they're wonderful resource about how colleges award aid and whether it's need based or merit based, and then we have a conversation about how, how they fit in to all of this. And the bottom line is, B is really tough to get into schools. Everyone who's getting in would get a scholarship just about anywhere else. So because of that, these institutions tend to focus their their financial aid on need. So a lot of them are meeting 100% need, some of them even with no loans. So shout out to my alma mater, Davidson, for doing it, for doing that. That's how I made it through. So those institutions scholarships? Are there scholarships? Sure, but the bulk of the aid is for folks who who need the aid in order to be able to afford those colleges. So that's where I tell those students who are in that quadrant of having really great grades but having not so much the resources to pay for college if you can get into a school that meets 100% of need with no loans, that's the Willy Wonka ticket right there. That's that's how you get this done. And there are programs that pair, like, I'm thinking of questbridge, or a few others, like, where they match these kids to these institutions. Great, perfect,
Ethan Sawyer 26:47
quick footnote. The episode that Amanda just mentioned with Jeff Levy. It's called which schools are the most generous with financial aid. That's episode 121, and that's the US version. We also did the one after that with Jenny Kent, which schools are the most generous with financial aid? International Version, and that's episode 122, again. These are at colleges a guy.com/podcast so if you're interested in those, check out that you
Unknown Speaker 27:11
have so many great resources. Ethan,
Ethan Sawyer 27:13
these are all our friends. These are all our friends in the college, in the College of mission world.
Speaker 1 27:18
I mean, there's just so many students to help, we all gotta pitch in totally. So what
Ethan Sawyer 27:23
are some of your favorite tools for that students can use and parents can use when they're trying to figure out if a college is likely to be affordable or not?
Speaker 1 27:31
Ooh, great question. Well, I would say that if they're willing to put in the work and they want a pretty good estimate net price, calculators are a great place to start if you have a specific institution in mind, like, I really want to know if X college is going to be affordable. Affordable to me, I check out their net price calculator, which every college is required to have. And then I'll check out Ginny and Jeff's charts as a secondary and then the other thing I'll usually check is college scorecard. And between these three tools, I can usually get a good sense of of how, how affordable an institution is going to be. But always, there's always exceptions. There's always a, you know, maybe a scholarship that fits a student that doesn't, isn't accounted for in the averages. So that's where I'll go to the college's website and just look at their scholarship offerings to see, oh, they have, you know, a eSports scholarship that we didn't, that wasn't on our radar, that the student could go for. Again, it's a little bit of roll of the dice on those, but that's still good information. If you're seeing on a college website that the very first thing they show you to on their scholarship page is private scholarships, or they send you to fast web or going merry, that's not a good indication. They usually have a lot of scholarships that they're sending you elsewhere. Also, besides the net price calculator, one other great resource that I love is our good friend Mark Salisbury, tuition fit, and it's a really great way to unpack what the net price of a college is likely to be. So sticker price is what you see online, that cost of attendance. Net Price is what families are actually paying. So it gives, it gives a lot of really great information by kind of crowdsourcing multiple award letters. So he does ask you to contribute, if you can an award letter to the database. But it's a great resource. There's one other paid source, college aid, pro i They don't pay me to be their spokesperson, spoke person or anything, but I know that they have a pretty vast database of of scholarships, of institutional scholarships, and what's what's out there. They allow folks to do kind of a Create Your Own Adventure, DIY approach, where you can just access their data, but they also have folks that are available to help
Ethan Sawyer 29:45
in a few minutes here, I want to get into some practical steps that folks can take once they're done listening. But before we do let's bust some college affordability myths. And I'm gonna, you know what? I'm gonna I know that you have a couple in mind. Well, you just kind of set a couple of these up and. Maybe I'll jump in with a couple?
Speaker 1 30:01
Yeah, sure. So I am out and about often at the grocery store, hi, like in the elevator, wherever, and I hear people say things about paying for college. And I can't help myself, I just have to jump in. So here's some things that I hear folks say that I just, I just say, I do this for a living. Can I? Can I chat to you, with you for a second? So one of them is you can ask. You could totally ask colleges for more money, if the author's enough, just go back and say more, and they they want you to negotiate. And I've heard you can appeal your financial aid packages. So this is true, but when it's realistic and you're actually getting more money, is maybe a little bit fuzzy for folks. So there are times that you absolutely should appeal. So heaven forbid, a student loses a parent, or a parent loses their job for six months, or their home is in the epicenter of a natural disaster, or they have additional family members to support that they didn't last year. All of these are reasons all these are truly impactful financial events, and the colleges are prepared to work with you. The FAFSA uses what's called prior priority year. So the FAFSA is delayed by two years. So take your graduation year, subtract two. That's the tax year that the FAFSA will use to determine how much age you need. So if there's been a significant change, parents have separated. Now you just live with dad, or whatever it is that's a significant event that the fast is not going to be able to track, or at least not very well or completely. So in that case, what you need to do is you file the FAFSA, you do the things, you answer, the questions they ask you to answer as best as you can, and the way they ask them. And then you follow up with the financial aid office, and you say, Hey, we've done the FAFSA. But here's what the FAFSA doesn't capture. It doesn't capture this change since the time it's asking about. And that's where there's something called professional judgment that colleges can work with families on now, if there is this other form. So I talked about FAFSA, which everyone should do, and most colleges need that form. But there are a subset of colleges, the really generous ones that I mentioned before that are really generous to folks who need it. They use a different form called the CSS Profile. For years, people asked me what CSS did for and I didn't know, and I finally looked up it was called, it's college scholarship service, which is such a misnomer, because it's not about scholarships, it's about grants. But whatever, it's okay. I'll let slide. So the CSS Profile, I can do a FAFSA in about 15 minutes with with the new one coming out, I might be able to do it quicker. A CSS Profile takes me, like, four hours, y'all so long. It asks about how much money you have in your HSA account. It asks about just everything, private school tuition, all of it. So they also, on the CSS has this additional information box of like, tell us everything else. So if you're doing if you're applying for financial aid to a CSS Profile school, you don't need to call it the financial aid office, because you can already put all that stuff in there, because they ask you about what do you expect it to be for the next year, and are there changes all that's already built in. So it's only if you're applying to FAFSA only schools, or whichever schools you're applying to that are fast for only they are the ones who would need to be updated to what's going on. There's one other thing that there's one other reason you could appeal, and this is the one that a lot of folks you know think that they can kind of get away with, is, hey, college, you gave me this award letter, but this college down the street gave me a better deal. Let's work that can happen, but I'm going to tell you it's probably not going to happen with public institutions. It's not going to happen with those less than 25% admit institutions, either you're going to get and or they have people waiting behind you. So those less competitive schools like say you have a Mars Hill and Elise McCrae and one gives you $5,000 more, and you want to try to talk to them about it, you can that. Don't have to say yes, but if they're comparable, less competitive private institutions, sure, you can ask. The worst you're gonna be told is no. But other institutions I don't seeing it being particularly effective. Another myth that I hear is that everyone who isn't quote, super rich, whatever that means, takes on debt to pay for college. And the question I get asked is, What would I say to someone who sees debt as the only way to pay for college? And in true Socratic tradition, I would respond with a couple of questions. First, first question, have you filled out your FAFSA? Because if you haven't, how do you know that you haven't gotten, you know, additional aid besides debt? So that would be one. The next question I would ask is, which colleges are you considering and what resources do they have like, do they have grants? Do they have scholarships? Do they apply to you? And so if the answers to both of those, I filled out the FAFSA, and I'm not getting any federal aid, I'm in a state that doesn't give anything, and the colleges have no reason to reward me money. So then the final question I would ask is, would. Be open to an alternative pathway. So whether that's transferring in, like some states are friendly to students who want to do community college for a year in their state and then transfer in. A lot of them are, but some of them are. What about AmeriCorps? AmeriCorps, especially the N triple C program, is a great program that I think is often overlooked because you do a year, especially for kids who, like, don't know what they want to do, you can apply to college, get it locked in of, okay, I'm going, and then can I just defer a year? And like, come a year later, in colleges, for the most part, will be pretty supportive of that. And then you go off and you have adventures for a year, of like, serving in different ways, and then they give you the whole Pell Grant Award at the end to pay for college. Like, you know, so 7400 is what it was last year. So that's pretty great for some students, military services away or going and working for someone getting tuition reimbursement. Like, would they be open to that kind of pathway? If they're saying no, no, it's I gotta go. I gotta be on the quad. I gotta do my intramural sports. I am so ready for college, then my question would be, are you open to a financially viable substitute? So I mentioned my student who is looking at the SEC schools. I'm not a believer in, you know, Cinderella scenarios with colleges. I think students can bloom where they're planted. I really struggle with the idea of a dream school. Now, that's not to say that you can't absolutely love a school and everything it has to offer that's fantastic, but there are 3000 institutions. If you got one that you really like, I'm sure there's another one that's got a lot of similar qualities that you could probably go for that is a financially viable substitute. So that's where knowing that is a little bit harder, and that's where someone like me as a professional to professional tends to come in and say, Okay, you want this. Have you tried this? But as a quick substitute and a shout out to Dr Steven Anton off the college Express site, where it's got those lists, those lists and rankings. When you click on a college, you know, with a certain attribute that you like, it'll suggest other colleges that are similar. You could look into those colleges and do they? Are they going to be more financially friendly to you, because you get something similar for a much, much reduced cost?
Ethan Sawyer 37:11
Yeah, and the just to footnote what Amanda's talking about in terms of Stephen Anton off he he's sort of like the guy when it comes to college lists. He wrote a book called The college finder, and the lists that are in the college finder are searchable on college Express. So we'll link to that in the show notes as well. You know another one, Amanda that I'm coming up with is, like, folks sometimes, or I've heard them say, is, like, college just isn't worth it. It's just way too expensive. And I think there's sort of like extremist thinking, where they're kind of like, I'm just not gonna go to college, or I'm not even gonna consider private schools, because when I look at the price tag, I'm just like, No way. What do you say to folks who are trying to figure out if college is even worth it? I would
Speaker 1 37:53
tell them I have absolutely been in your shoes. So full disclosure, I'm the first one of my family to have gone to college, and the response when I told my my maternal grandfather was, why would you pay that much money for four years when you could be working and earning that much money for you? Like, it just didn't it just didn't compute. And so, like, I've had that conversation, and my parents gave me the freedom of, would you rather go to college or not? Like there wasn't that pressure. So I've had this conversation with myself. And so what I would say to folks is the first thing you have to understand is college is a tool, not a ticket. So it's not I have this degree, therefore my life is all set. It's what are you hoping to get out of those four years? And are you willing to put in the work once you're there, to get those things out of it? So you know, are you trying to get internships and build a network? Are you trying to build your your writing and your reading abilities, like, what? What is it that you're seeking get out of it? Because no matter what your field is getting, becoming better at what you do is essential. So for some people, learning on the job might be the way to go. But for me, like I grew up watching what you know, my dad did every day, not with a college, not having a college degree. And I just said, No, I want. I want to do something different. I want to live in a different place. I want to explore different things. I want to, you know, travel abroad, do all this. So for me, college was worth it as a growing experience, as, you know, a way to figure out who I was, but also to build a network. Every job I've had since I've graduated has been because of someone I knew and them encouraging me. So there are plenty of amazing, affordable options. A lot of people, when they think college, they think four year institution. There are many, many pathways to build expertise in your field. So specialized knowledge, professional networks, enhanced ability to reason, to communicate, soft skills, those are all things you get in college. If you can get those without college, and you see a pathway and you are adamant about not being in debt, that's great. College is just a concentrated dose of that, and that's worthwhile. That's bill. Those skills and meeting those people, that's that's what makes it worth. It awesome. With that in mind, a lot of folks ask, Well, shouldn't I just go to community college first then, like, if it's all the same, if a degree is a degree is a degree. And, you know, because real college, quote, unquote, is too expensive, you know, if I get the same degree, either way, if I graduate from a school after transferring, it doesn't say, you know, via Community College, it's just the same, right? And what I would say to those folks is, it really depends on fit, just like you look at different institutions, different four year institutions, or how good of a fit they will be for you, for their majors, for their you know, social aspects Community College is the same. I don't know how well I would have fared in community college, because you have to be really, really independent. There's a lot. There's a reason it's less expensive because there's not as much support. A lot of times as what you get at a four year institution, there's not, you know, the Counseling Center or the, you know, Activities Committee. Some community colleges do have those, but it really is. It needs to be the fit for you. So if you're a student who can navigate that and then apply partway through your second year, go through the whole application process, then without your high school counselor there to support you, then great. But it does take a pretty independent and on top of a person to make that transferee, I know when I started at my first high school, doing college advising, probably the track record for every 10 students who left the high school and said they wanted to transfer, about only one of them did. We made some progress. It made it up to about three out of 10 by the time I was I was done with that position, but it takes effort, so I wouldn't assume it's a straight shot easy pathway for a lot of folks, beautiful.
Ethan Sawyer 41:45
What about the myth that you can't or shouldn't apply out of state because it's just going to be too expensive no matter what? That's
Speaker 1 41:52
a great point. So I've already talked about how out of state public institutions can be maybe not unfriendly, but certainly not helpful to a lot of a lot of students who are trying to go to them and trying to make it affordable, but for private institutions, it doesn't matter what state you're in, like, that's not something they account for when they're looking at price. They may have a little bit of help for students from their state, but it's pretty fair game. So what it comes down to is the difference between cost of attendance, which is that published sticker price that includes for the record five different things a lot of people don't think about. Everyone thinks about tuition and fees. Everyone thinks about room and board, now renamed housing and and room. But the ones they don't think about are transportation and books and supplies and personal expenses. They count for things like going to the movies and, you know, buying deodorant, although that is theoretically included in that cost of attendance number. So that's not the number you actually write a check for to the college. So that's that's not the cost you're paying them. But the other side of it, it's not cost of attendance, is something called net cost. Net cost is what you actually pay, and that's the highest it could possibly be is that cost of attendance number, for most people, it's actually much less, less. So I never tell a student not to apply to a college because it's too expensive. I tell them that just like they have admissions slam dunk and target and reach schools, they should have the same thing for financial aid. They should have a couple of schools where they are almost certain that even if the college doesn't give them a dime, they're going to be able to make it work. And then maybe you have a couple of those. I don't know how you're going to make this affordable, but let's just see. So apply out of state, apply to that school you really love, because Stranger things have happened. Maybe there's a scholarship we didn't account for, but I wouldn't load your list up with those of those hopefuls of maybe, just maybe it'll work, because that's a lot of work to write all those essays and apply to all the schools and pay those fees. So just just be cognizant of it when you're cognizant of it, when you're making those college application like lists of where you're going to apply, you can have a few, but not, not a ton,
Ethan Sawyer 44:05
by the way, when folks listening in the future, when Amanda mentioned going to the movies before Netflix, for those of you, there was there was a they had these things called movie theaters that you could go to, and you would sit in these cool chairs, and you could get a A Coke and, like, lots of popcorn. And it was really very overpriced popcorn. It was so cool. And I just, I'm sorry that y'all don't get to experience
Unknown Speaker 44:27
it in the future more and everything.
Ethan Sawyer 44:31
It was so awesome. What about folks who, you know, families who feel like they make too much money, and they're like, we're not even going to fill out a FAFSA because there's no chance we're going to get any money anyway?
Speaker 1 44:42
Oh, I love talking to these folks. So the first thing I ask them is if they think they can, if they are intending to pay for college entirely with their own money, with cash, with just like, with quarters, yeah, of course, yeah. Just like, are you going to write a check for that cost of attendance if you are happy and comfort? Doing that for all the schools your students attending? Okay, sure.
Ethan Sawyer 45:04
But then by okay, sure, you mean, yes, you don't have to fill out the FAFSA like, don't fill
Speaker 1 45:09
it out if that's if that's the world you live in. I'm very happy and pleased for you. But the other thing I would say is, Well, okay, I've done this for, oh gosh, almost a decade now. I've had families who make $40,000 tell me that they make too much. And I've had families who make a quarter of a million dollars a year tell me that makes too much. And guess what? Depending on assets and the number of, you know, kids in your family and a few other things, it's not everything you can account for. So there's not I get asked all the time for a threshold of like, well, what's the dollar amount? Where I don't have to fill out a Fauci anymore? I'm like, what? Anymore? I'm like, Well, do you have eight kids? Do you have, you know, lots of assets, like, what is going on? So I never I advise filling out a FAFSA regardless, because everyone I talk to thinks they're middle income, no matter where they are on the range. The other thing I would say is, obviously they have the opportunity to get student loans. Everybody who files a FAFSA automatically has the option to take out those federal student loans that are off often at a lower interest rate than a private loan would be. So that's an option, and some families like to have their student have a little bit of skin in the game. All right, student, you're gonna take out these loans, and when you graduate, we'll pay them off for you. If you don't, then they're on you. So that might be a reason to do it. Another thing is, you never plan for catastrophe. There's some colleges that, let's say you have the horrendous scenario of losing the parent, and that parent was the breadwinner, if you didn't file a FAFSA and before the tragedy, then they don't have anything to compare it against, to understand how much of a loss occurred. So they're gonna there's gonna be a delay in being able to help you make those adjustments in that professional judgment. So colleges just love to have that FAFSA on file. You do have the option of filing the FAFSA and not putting a school on it, just so that the fastest filed and it's there if you really don't want the colleges to see it, you have that option. So I say it's better safe than sorry. Like, just apply for the financial aid and don't I think, I think others have said this, but don't try to game the system. Don't say, like, Oh, we don't, we totally don't need a we don't need aid. And then apply and get in and say, Oh, just kidding, we need aid. Because guess what, they may have already given it all out. So be be honest through the whole process. That's the best policy. So if you need the aid file, the FAFSA, even if you don't think you need the aid file, the FAFSA, another reason just occurred to me is that even if you don't get federal aid again, so this board, you could get that state aid, you could get institutional aid. It's not just the federal aid I have, can tell you the number of parents who were surprised that, oh well, we didn't get the Pell Grant, but we still got this $5,000 grant from the college because we filled out the FAFSA. So it's, it's always a good idea. There are a few exceptions where I might not, but for the most part, it's a good idea.
Ethan Sawyer 47:59
Before we get to practical next steps, let's talk about debt for a minute. So my own relationship to this, I went to undergrad at Northwestern, and I was a zero EFC kid, which meant my expected family contribution was zero, which was, like, bad going in to it, but like, great for financial aid purposes, you know. But so I ended up with, like, you know, it was like, six or $7,000 in loans per year or something. So I was like, I came out of college undergrad with like, 28,000 or so in debt, which I was like, Yeah, I felt pretty great about it. And then went to grad school, and it was, like, a lot of it was paid for, but you have to take out loans to, like, pay for housing and stuff. So it was like, I don't know, 25 a year or something. And so for those let's, let's turn this into a myth. It's something like, you know, let's say the myth is something like, you shouldn't have any debt when you graduate college. Let's, let's qualify this a little bit. What is a it's hard to answer this generally, but like, let's call it a reasonable, what's a reasonable amount of debt? Or what does it depend on? I should say so
Speaker 1 48:59
a reasonable amount of debt would depend on what you're going to do when you graduate. So for my fellow educators out there, if you are going to take a job as a public school teacher and make $35,000 a year, okay, well, then going more than $25,000 in debt would give me a little bit of pause if you're going to be a paper science major at Clemson and walk out making 90 grand right off the bat. Okay, sure you could go 60 grand in debt. That would be fine. So it just depends on what your what capacity you're going to have to pay it back when you're out. That would be part of it, as for graduating, maybe without any debt, or thinking, you know, debt is a bad thing, I would ask, how many people plan to pay cash for their house. I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's an investment. So I don't think it's practical to say you shouldn't have any debt. Some, some people are very fortunate and can do that. And if you're really set on that, there are some great work colleges that have no debt built in to how they do it. I'm thinking of, you know, college of the. Ozarks, if that's your cup of tea and you really want to do that, great. Or, you know, if you want to go to the Naval Academy, where it's not, you know, they don't charge anything, that'd be great. But if you're not willing to budge on where you're willing to go, then you need to be able to budge on how much debt you're going to take. So it's one of the other either be flexible with your college list or be flexible with the amount of debt and map that out beautiful.
Ethan Sawyer 50:24
All right, let's get practical. So folks have listened to all of this awesome information. What do they actually do in order to figure out this whole financial planning piece for college? Absolutely,
Speaker 1 50:35
I know when I've chatted with people, they've they've said it's kind of like drinking from a fire hose so into, in order to have, like, digestible pieces, actually wrote a paying for college guide. It's nice, short to the point, and it comes in four pieces. There's four pieces to it. So the scholarships portion talks about, well, where do I look for local scholarships? How do I find institutional ones? What keywords should I be searching? Do you have a favorite scholarship website? All of that there. I also got that handy little quadrants we talked about, and it details more. It talks about international colleges, community college, other things that we didn't get to in our time, about financial fit and how to find your financial fit. And then it talks about the FAFSA and CSS profile, some pro tips about how to make that as little as as least painful as possible to go through because, you know, I think I'm one of the only humans who actually enjoys filling out a FAFSA. So it's fine. And then the last bit is about award letters, how to read an award letter, how to go about an appeal, that sort of thing. So it's those are the bits that'll be in there. And hopefully that would folks can double dutch in wherever they they feel like they where they are on that process. So if they're looking for scholarships, they're figuring out their college list, they can take what
Ethan Sawyer 51:52
they need from it. Love it, all right. So as we wrap what final words of wisdom or advice would you give to let's say, let's do students, and then parents and then counselors. So
Speaker 1 52:04
to students that would tell them to be flexible with their plans, it is totally okay to not know where you're going or where's the best fit. But by the same token, be curious. Just keep asking questions. Keep seeking help. The there's a direct correlation between how fulfilled happy you know you're going to be with where you end up going, and how much effort you put in to figuring out where you want to go in the first place. So what I mean by that is I had a college advisor give me a list of seven schools I applied, and then I visited them, and four of them I would never have applied to if I'd put any research in. So do your due diligence. Start now seek help and just be curious. Look for those maybe unconventional ways of approaching the paying for college problem. They will things can appear for parents. I would say you are on the team of your students, you love them and want what's best for them. So let your student drive the bus of this college process, but keep their tank fueled. One way to do that is to find the scholarships that you hope that they will apply for to help ask them how you can help. Say, what do you need? Do you need me to look up things about a college do you just keeping supporting them, not driving the process, but asking what do you need me to do? I find that's actually really powerful for parents, and maybe offer a couple of suggestions of how you could help, but letting them need it. And speaking of finding scholarships, my advice for counselors is almost never have I just told a student, go apply for scholarships, and it has magically happened, and they have come back having won all the scholarships. It's just it's so daunting for kids, of like, what scholarships? Where's my you know, if I put a paper in their hands, they would fill it out happily. It might be done in Purple Crayon, unless I tell them differently, but like, it would be done. But it's that advice that they just don't they've never done this before for us. You know, a lot of us are veterans of this process. We've done it year in, year and out, but it's the first time for these kids, and they just don't know what they're doing. So I have a very, very practical tip here. Is take 15 to 20 minutes go to that paying for college guide I mentioned and totally steal my lines. If you see something in there that is useful and helpful and you're like, Yeah, that's a great way to put that. Take it. It's yours. Like, just there are more students than I could possibly help my own. You all are rock stars, so go help them apply for scholarships by giving them some practical, step by step, things to do that's a little bit more what sort of looking for, scaffolded than than just apply.
Ethan Sawyer 54:48
I love that advice, and you're so generous, and I'm so grateful for for your contributions. And fun fact, for counselors who are listening, there's an awesome course that has Pay What You Can spots that. We'll link to in the show notes that Amanda leads, and there's a court it's there's one for school counselors, and there's one for independent Educational Consultants. So we'll link that in the show notes. Amanda, I just want to say thanks again. You're such a rock star, and I'm just grateful for every hour I get to spend with you. Likewise, Ethan, have an awesome day. You too. Thanks as ever for listening. You'll find the show notes at college sa guy.com/podcast including links to all the things we talked about. Hey, if you're into this stuff and you want to learn more, Amanda was too shy to talk about her courses on financial aid on the podcast, but I'm not you'll find more info at that same link that I just mentioned, college essay guy.com/podcast Amanda's created a course for families and separate courses for high school counselors with large case loads and independent educational consultants who work more one on one, with Pay What You Can options, because, of course, she has Pay What You can options, be well friends and stay curious. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show transcript
Ethan Sawyer 0:08 Hi friends, and welcome back to the college sa guy Podcast. I'm real excited today because I've been wanting to do this episode, which is a crash course in paying for college for a while, and because it's with one of my favorite folks in the college admission world, Amanda Miller, whom you'll meet in just a few minutes. So first we get into how do people actually pay for college? Where are the scholarships, and what do the people who get the scholarships do? What's the most important thing a student can do to make college affordable and to avoid going into tons of debt? There are two questions that you can ask to learn, broadly speaking, which colleges are likely to be affordable to you, and we'll share what those are. And then we bust some myths on everything from appealing financial aid packages to the idea that you can't apply out of state because it's too expensive, which is just not true. My guest, as I mentioned, is Amanda Miller, who got her start in financial aid through Davidson College's Advising Corps in 2014 a few 1000 students, several resources and dozens of financial aid presentations later, Amanda hasn't lost her love of explaining the ins and outs of financial aid to pretty much anybody who will listen, including grocery store clerks, as I hear it. She's an independent financial aid specialist and college advisor who also happens to be our financial aid go to Lady for the match letters program. And she's someone I consider to be part of the extended College Essay Guy family. I love how down to earth Amanda is, how clearly she communicates what she knows. And I hope you do too. Hi, Amanda, welcome to the podcast. Amanda Miller 1:48 Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. So Ethan Sawyer 1:51 can you tell the folks what is it that you even like about financial aid? Like, why have you devoted some goodly portion of your life to thinking, writing, talking about it. Well, Speaker 1 2:01 I'm a nerd at heart, and I love helping people, so this is a way I can use my nerdy power to to help folks take things that are very, very complicated seemingly and simplify them and get them right to the heart of what they need quickly. So it's a stressful period in people's life. So much time and energy is spent on the on the Where should I go and how do I get in? And it's really the financial piece that's going to ripple effect for 10 years after they graduate. So it's a really important thing to talk about, and it just needs a little more love and attention. And I like to give it to folks. Ethan Sawyer 2:34 Yeah, I think it's really one of your superpowers. When I think about the content you deliver, it's so I just appreciate your concision and your ability to, as you said, Put complex thoughts into simple terms. So I'm going to ask you start with a really big question, which is like, how do people pay for college? Break it down for us? Well, I'm Speaker 1 2:53 actually going to start by stealing a line from one of my mentors, day, jelinas, who was the head of financial aid at dates in college for years, and he said folks pay from their past, their present and their future, so savings and current income and loans are the three ways. But those are the ones that most people you know. That's kind of the boring answer. Most people like to talk about Gift Aid. So Gift Aid is everything else. That's the grants you get because you need the money to pay for college. That's the scholarships you get, because you're awesome in some way, and the College wants to entice you to go there. So there's really a lot of ways that you pay for college, but what it comes down to is planning. Is starting. Some folks do that by starting saving early, but it could just mean for some families starting junior year and thinking about what that college list is look, what looks is going to look like, and what financial safety schools they might have, one other way is, I would say by working that's kind of the unsung hero of paying for college. So would be work colleges, employer to intuition, reimbursement, military service, tuition benefits. There's lots and lots of different kind of niche ways you can pay for college. So scholarships are the thing. Get a lot of attention, but it all comes together. So when you look at the end result of how people pay for college, it's really a mix of everything. It's not purely savings or purely loans or purely grants. For most people, it's a mix of just all of it, what they can contribute themselves, what they get from helping and what they get from working, all boiled together, and that's how most people make it work. So Ethan Sawyer 4:26 I want to talk about scholarships in just a second, because that's what most folks are aware of or think of when it comes to paying for college. But let's bust a myth for us, if we can, because I think that some people get this wrong. Where does most of the money come from when it comes to paying for college, Speaker 1 4:42 hands down, the institutions themselves, like I've heard numbers like 92% 95% I don't know if anyone's ever actually pegged a number, but it's clear most of the money is coming from the colleges. Fun fact, the average discount rate for private institutions and. The US, private colleges, it's 52% and it keeps climbing. So whatever sticker price you see, most people aren't paying that. So whether it's a discount or an actual merit scholarship or whatever, most of the money is in the colleges themselves. That's why it's so important to investigate how the colleges you love if if they're gonna love you back financial aid, speaking, financially speaking, like, are they places that are gonna award you scholarships or grants? So that's where most of it is, absolutely Ethan Sawyer 5:30 great. And I know there's that belief, you know, that you know it's gonna come from the Coca Cola scholarship or the, you know, the duct tape scholarship, but yeah, as, as, as you're saying, it's really the schools so, but let's talk about scholarships for a minute. Where are they and how do students get them? Oh, great Speaker 1 5:46 question. This is the question I wish everyone would start. So if you type scholarships into Google, you're going to get just completely overwhelmed. There's just so much information. So I like to divide and conquer. So when I think about scholarships, there's three types. That's the institutional one themselves, for those you look on the college's website and there's actually financial aid advisors sitting there students awaiting your call. They would love to talk to you about all the money their institution could potentially have for you. The second type is local scholarships, and this can include state to a certain extent. So money that's for people who live where you live and your high school counselors should know all about those. And then private scholarships. So these are, as you said, Nathan the Stuck at Prom, $10,000 duct tape scholarship, the Coca Cola scholarship, the jack King cook Foundation Scholarship, these big programs, or they're either programs where they're, you know, there's a handful of those where, if you get them, they carry you all the way through. But most private scholarships are what I call one shots or snapshots. It's you get the money one time, and then you got to figure out what you're going to do for sophomore, junior, senior year. But there's, there's a lot of those, but they're kind of the wild west of scholarships. It's needle and a haystack findings. That's why I really like institutional and local, is it's really clear if it's for you, or it's not. Rather than spending hours and hours searching the internet for random scholarships, and when Ethan Sawyer 7:06 you say institutional, well, you just tell folks who are like, wait, what does that even mean? What does institutional me so Speaker 1 7:11 institutional? It's It's the place that you are going to college. So community colleges have their scholarships. The four year colleges have their scholarships. So and they come in a variety of forums, but the that's money that the college has on tap for students that they can assign to students who are going to their institutions, to their colleges, right? Ethan Sawyer 7:31 So give us some tips on some things that students can do to win these scholarships, like the or maybe better put, is like the students that you see when those scholarships, what are they doing? Oh, Speaker 1 7:43 they are Intrepid. They are asking questions, and they are seeking actively. Scholarships can be something that, through happenstance, kind of falls in your lap. I was talking about discount scholarships, where, you know it's, oh, here's $20,000 because you have a pulse and you got in. Like, those are there. But the people who are like, winning scholarships that are competitive or maybe that not everybody knows about, they're starting early. They're looking end of junior year, Junior summer, to find out what their institutions officer offer. They're asking their high school counselors what kinds of scholarships they might want to look into senior year. So they're starting this process before. One of the most heartbreaking conversations I have with folks is when it's April, May of senior year, and then they start looking for scholarships because they've gotten the bill. All the scholarships were six months before earlier. A lot of institutions who have those early action deadlines. If you don't meet those deadlines, it doesn't matter how competitive you are. You may not get a scholarship because it's tied to that deadline. So that's it. He is. There's no such thing as like early bird gets the mark along those lines. It's actually applying. A lot of students plan to apply for scholarships, but they never give that plan legs. They never actually go out and start applying, because they're not sure where to start. So making sure they have a plan in place, which we talk about on our resource, which I'm not sure if we'll share that now or later. But other is list others to help. One of the best things that students who win scholarships do is they make it very clear early on that they are looking and they're actively applying. So their parents, they ask them to look for certain things. They ask their counselor. They're they're listing others to help. I call it the assembly line strategy, getting parents or a trusted adults to find them. And as they find them, pass them to you and you fill them out, because trying to find the scholarships and apply for them, that's double the work. So if you can help someone help you out finding them, that's great. The other thing tips I would give that are really simple are recycle. You don't need all these scholarships that require resumes and essays. You don't have to start from scratch every time. Recycling is excellent. Once you've written the why I need the scholarship essay, you can use it over and over and over again. One of my favorite things is on local scholarships was asks you about your activities, just to put C attached resume, and then just staple it, and then it's done. And then five. One would be apply strategically. I had a student who said that he'd applied for 10 scholarships. And I said, that's great. Tell me about them. And it turned out they were all you know, enter your email to win $10,000 like they weren't really targeted. I would rather he have applied for two or three that were for him, like Hispanics and stem in North Carolina, that's really targeted. So it's better to apply strategically than just to random ones. I'm not saying you can't put the $10,000 put your email in one. That's that's fine. It's just not the best use of your time. Looking for ones that are really specific to you are a better use. Ethan Sawyer 10:40 This is great. So besides scholarships, I know there are grants and loans, and I know that FAFSA has something to do with that. Will you just explain to us how, how that whole thing works, and that's all. I know that that's they're like, a lot of whole things, but like, give us the sort of Crash Course version. Speaker 1 10:57 Crash Course version. Okay, so the federal government has set aside money for people who need money to pay for college, to pay for college, but if they just asked everyone, do you need money for college? Everyone would say yes. So how do they figure out exactly who really needs the money and who feels like they need the money, and how do they sort that out? So how they do that is with the FAFSA, so the Free Application for Federal Student Aid, that's the form that then takes all your information, your parents, age, your parents income, your savings, all that boils it down into one nice, neat little number called the Student Aid index. Besides your GPA, it's the single most important number in knowing how much money you're going to get for college. So GPA test scores are to scholarships, what sai Student Aid index is to grants. So that number is what tells colleges where you fall on the I need money spectrum. So the lower your Sai, the more aid you need, and therefore the more aid you're eligible to get. So everybody who fills out the basket gets the consolation prize of loans. It doesn't matter if you if your sai is a million dollars, which technically can't be, because that would bust the digits, but whatever like, if it was all nines, you would still be offered a loan, and it would be an unsubsidized loan, so it accrue interest. But you know, given what interest rates are, it's not a bad deal for most folks, and it's about 27 and $27,000 plus interest that you could take out over the course of four years. So no matter what you get that some folks also qualify, because they have need for something called subsidized loans. These are lovely. So if you were taking notes on this, I tell students, unsubsidized loans kind of gets like a meth face next to it. Subsidized loans happy face, because it is interest free while you're in school. Fantastic. Now, loans are kind of boring, and there is one other kind of loan, but I'll save on that the main thing, the main attraction of the FAFSA and where folks kind of get confused about, oh, I'm not going to fill out the fast because I won't get money, is they're thinking about the Pell Grant. So the Pell Grant is that pot of money that the federal government has, and those with the highest need are, quote, Pell eligible and can get awarded some aid. The max Pell grant last year was about $7,400 so in my State of North Carolina, that more than pays for your community college, like that's all paid for, and then the rest you take to pay for books and gas and everything. So there's no reason everyone should be able to afford Community College where I am, but the Pell Grant could be, obviously, be used anywhere. It can be used to any accredited institution. So by filling out the FAFSA, you could have $7,400 to take wherever you are. But the thing about this is that's not the only money the FAFSA helps you get. So yes, there's loans. This is the Pell Grant, and that's the federal aid. But what that sai does is the colleges see that number, right? It's not just for this federal aid. And your state higher education group, you know, CF and C where I am. Other states have other things, but those institutions also see this number. So your state aid and the college grant aid are also dependent on this forum. So even if you don't get a Pell Grant, you could still get money from the state or from the college itself, but if you don't file a FAFSA, you're just saying, Well, I don't want any of that money. So that's why institutions really, really push students to students and parents to complete the FAFSA is because they want you to pick the government's pocket first before you come to them and ask for money. They want to make sure you've maxed out aid everywhere else first. So that's one of the big mess I try to bust every year is, you know, folks don't qualify for the Pell and they think the FAFSA was was a bust, and it's like, no, no, no. As long as your Sai, your student aid index is a smaller number than what your college costs, you could still be a winner. You could still get grant aid. It just needs to be lower than that. If Ethan Sawyer 14:57 anyone's listening and you're like, how do I remember all this? Or you're like. Frantically taking notes. I want to assure you that Amanda mentioned there was a resource that we're going to link to in the show notes. We'll link to a resource that walks y'all through this stuff. And it's like a, you know, sort of step by step guide. So stay tuned. Don't stress. Let it wash over you. And, you know, sort of take what's what makes sense, and if you know, if you want to look at the resource after you can so let's zoom back a little bit Amanda from the practicals of it. And I want to know what are some of the important things that a student can do to make college affordable, and in particular, how do they avoid going into tons and tons of debt? Speaker 1 15:34 That is such a great question. Student loan debt is such a big topic. And what I would say is there's two main reasons that people end up in unmanageable college debt, because debt is a tool, right? If you can graduate without it, that's wonderful, but a lot of people do, and it's okay, but unmanageable college debt, the amount of college debt that you're not going to be able to pay back before your own kids go to college. Kind of debt is really one of two things, either extreme optimism about future prospects of what you're going to make and like how much your the value of your degree is going to pay off, or just a lack of understanding of what other options were out there in the first place. I know a thing that was told to me in high school is college is worth whatever price, just take out the loans. And that may have been true, maybe back in the 80s, when college tuition was not nearly as high as it is. Now, that's just not reasonable anymore. I don't like I can't, in good conscious advise a family to take out $100,000 for an undergraduate degree. That's just, that's my philosophy. I can't do it. My rule of thumb is to tell folks to take out whatever your first year salary will be after you graduate. Two thirds of that. That's that's a reasonable amount of time. So how do I avoid this? How do families like avoid having this extreme optimism or a lack of understanding by being intentional. So what do I mean by that? I mean look things up for yourself, students and parents, taking the word of someone, a college financial aid office, person, your counselor, all well intentioned, but sitting down and running the numbers for yourself of what will this look like and what is the value, how much that will I be in if I pursue this? Is very important. So that brings me back to that April May discussion I often have with parents is every school year you are admitted to will give you an award letter. I know that Grandma wants to buy you that sweater for Christmas, for where you're going to go to college. And like they want, everyone wants to cheer you on and have you make your decision. So it's just like, boom, settled and you move on. But it's so imperative that you take those financial aid award letters, compare them side by side, because what you think you're reading may not be you know what the actual deal is? You most people just look at the cost number. They look at the what you're getting number, and they subtract, and they say, great, not realizing that what you're getting could include loans, especially when they're really sneaky and stick Parent Plus loans in there, which aren't guaranteed. That's heartbreaking. I had a student bring me an award letter and said they were getting $40,000 and I looked and $30,000 if that was a PLUS loan, and I was like, That's sneaky. That's not okay. So that's one of the reasons that people end up in unmanageable debt. Is just not vet is just not reading the fine print, not reading the and it's not really fine print, like, if you sit down, we've even got that analyzer, which I'm sure Ethan can link to, of like, how to walk through comparing these so that you know what you're getting into ahead of time. And then the other thing would be to just not say, we'll figure it out later. That's kind of credit card thinking of, credit card, thinking of, Oh, I'm just going to rack it up for Christmas, and we'll think of how we're going to pay for it's how are we going to contribute? How are we going What are we going to expect to earn? Just mapping out realistically what it will look like. But I'll say this. I'm not trying to rain on eBay's parade. There are, there are wonderful things. So if you are set and determined, like I one student who is set and determined to go to a certain SEC school. It's out of state for him, and I'm like, well, let's see what we can do to make this happen. So he started at the end of junior year looking for every grant, every scholarship, every level of aid to try to make this institution work. But in the end, he's also got on his list another similar school that would love to give him money, and it's comparable in almost just about every way. He just didn't think about there being another school that was a great fit for him, that also was affordable. I love Ethan Sawyer 19:26 this, and I'm I'm thinking that there are probably some folks who are listening, who are brand new to this process, and who are trying to figure out, well, how do I even know what range I'm in for what's affordable to me? Will you and we, you know, we've talked about this framework before that I that I love so much. Will you give folks just sort of a general way of thinking about the kinds of colleges that are likely to be affordable to them? Yes, Speaker 1 19:53 absolutely. So I think it was about my second or third year into advising. That I just kind of had this idea about, and it came from having a math brain of like, these quadrants, like, so if you imagine X, Y axis, on one axis, it's a student's academic ability. So like, how awesome are their grades? Or how not awesome are their grades? And that's a relative thing, right? Because awesome or getting into one institution could be different from another, but just generally speaking, and then the other axis is, which is, how much do your family, how rich is your family? We'll, we'll just narrow down that. Like, is your family happily going to write a check for whatever you would like for college? Or they're saying you got this good luck? Kiddo, like, where on the on the the range? My family was the good luck. Kiddo, a state of the range so, Ethan Sawyer 20:41 so it's like, let me say it back to you. So it's like, yeah, it's on the top is like, grades are awesome. On the bottom, grades are not awesome. On the right family is rich. On the left family is not rich. Yes, got it, Speaker 1 20:53 yes. So think about where you fall on this and where you fall on in each of these quadrants is going to determine which colleges are going to be financially friendly to you? So as I said, there's all sorts of talk about, you know, social fit and academic fit. This is a completely separate discussion of like, where is going to be affordable? So I would say that in state institutions, those in state public colleges, are great financial fit for just about everybody. So you know, it, no matter where you are, that's a great place to start for most students. If you have great grades and you're in a state that gives that has merit aid, like I'm thinking of Georgia, hope or Friday or Florida, Bright Futures, then those are excellent and those are hard to beat. If you're in a state like North Carolina, it has state based grants. Then if you're in the good luck kid, not so great, not so rich, then that could be a great thing too, because even at private institutions, you could get eight so on the flip side, out of state, public institutions. So public institutions, public colleges, universities that are not in the state that you live in, typically are harder to figure out financially, because the whole point of a public institution is to serve the students in their state. The whole reason state. The whole reason that your tuition is lower for in state is because your parents live in that state and pay taxes in that state, right? So by crossing the state lines, it just it's an uphill battle, because they don't have as many things set aside for you. Now, there are exceptions. There are absolutely exceptions. Great, one University of Central Arkansas, look, if you live on campus, great you get in state tuition. If you Tennessee gives it in Alabama, give it for test scores, Wyoming as well, like, so if you have really great test scores, they'll bring it down in state tuition. I think Alabama even has, like, if you have a perfect test score and a 4.0 plus GPA, they give you a full ride with with bonuses. Like, it's it's pretty grand. So there are ways to work around it, but that's the out of state publics. Their Their goal is not to serve out of state students necessarily. They're looking to those out of state students, and they woo them because they know it's more expensive and they know that they'll make more. I mean, they're still trying to build a well rounded class, so in admissions, people, I'm not I'm not pooping, they're still trying to get lots of perspectives, and there's lots of perspectives, and there's lots of reasons they would want out of state students, but from a financial aid perspective, it's a little bit harder. So I'm going to split private colleges into two groups, private colleges that are less difficult to get into and private colleges that are tough to get into. So I'm going to define tough as less than a 25% admission rate. So I had a student in one of my very first classes I worked with, and she got into our state flagship, and she also got into this little school called Gardner Webb. And at the state flagship, she was just kind of one of many. She was gonna have to apply to get into their their business program. It was pre business, but at Gardner Webb, they offered her a full ride, like top Merit Scholarship, and she was already into the business program. So the question for her was, Do you pay in state tuition to go here, or do you take the full ride and get, you know, the red carpet rolled out for you here, like, which, which way do you want to go? So with students with really great grades, it's more of a matter of, do you want that? Do you really want that more competitive environment, or do you like being a big fish in a small pond so it can pay off for those less selected institutions? And it's not that they get any less of an education. They're getting a great education. These small private colleges are the unsung heroes of the higher end world, and they do great work. A great resource for this would be the colleges that change lives. If you've not heard about that, they are fantastic, smaller, lesser known schools that are doing really well by students. Ethan Sawyer 24:31 Okay? And quick, quick plug for another episode. We Yeah, we have an earlier episode of folks Listen, go to the college as a guy.com/podcast page. And we've got a recent episode with Anne Morano from colleges that change lives. So fun fact. Speaker 1 24:44 Oh, that's fabulous. She's so great. Okay, yeah, so with the tougher to get into schools. So this is probably the thing that I have to break to parents more often than just about anything else, when it comes to how affordable schools are. Going to be. So a family will come in and they will talk to me about getting scholarships at Duke, getting scholarships at Pomona, getting scholarships at these institutions that are tough to get into in the first place. And so the conversation we have is I pull up the Financial Aid page and I show them what scholarships are available, and then we talk about what the average admission profile is for that institution. And then I show them a really great resource that I believe you had Jeff on here before Jeff Levy, yes, I think so. Yes, they're wonderful resource about how colleges award aid and whether it's need based or merit based, and then we have a conversation about how, how they fit in to all of this. And the bottom line is, B is really tough to get into schools. Everyone who's getting in would get a scholarship just about anywhere else. So because of that, these institutions tend to focus their their financial aid on need. So a lot of them are meeting 100% need, some of them even with no loans. So shout out to my alma mater, Davidson, for doing it, for doing that. That's how I made it through. So those institutions scholarships? Are there scholarships? Sure, but the bulk of the aid is for folks who who need the aid in order to be able to afford those colleges. So that's where I tell those students who are in that quadrant of having really great grades but having not so much the resources to pay for college if you can get into a school that meets 100% of need with no loans, that's the Willy Wonka ticket right there. That's that's how you get this done. And there are programs that pair, like, I'm thinking of questbridge, or a few others, like, where they match these kids to these institutions. Great, perfect, Ethan Sawyer 26:47 quick footnote. The episode that Amanda just mentioned with Jeff Levy. It's called which schools are the most generous with financial aid. That's episode 121, and that's the US version. We also did the one after that with Jenny Kent, which schools are the most generous with financial aid? International Version, and that's episode 122, again. These are at colleges a guy.com/podcast so if you're interested in those, check out that you Unknown Speaker 27:11 have so many great resources. Ethan, Ethan Sawyer 27:13 these are all our friends. These are all our friends in the college, in the College of mission world. Speaker 1 27:18 I mean, there's just so many students to help, we all gotta pitch in totally. So what Ethan Sawyer 27:23 are some of your favorite tools for that students can use and parents can use when they're trying to figure out if a college is likely to be affordable or not? Speaker 1 27:31 Ooh, great question. Well, I would say that if they're willing to put in the work and they want a pretty good estimate net price, calculators are a great place to start if you have a specific institution in mind, like, I really want to know if X college is going to be affordable. Affordable to me, I check out their net price calculator, which every college is required to have. And then I'll check out Ginny and Jeff's charts as a secondary and then the other thing I'll usually check is college scorecard. And between these three tools, I can usually get a good sense of of how, how affordable an institution is going to be. But always, there's always exceptions. There's always a, you know, maybe a scholarship that fits a student that doesn't, isn't accounted for in the averages. So that's where I'll go to the college's website and just look at their scholarship offerings to see, oh, they have, you know, a eSports scholarship that we didn't, that wasn't on our radar, that the student could go for. Again, it's a little bit of roll of the dice on those, but that's still good information. If you're seeing on a college website that the very first thing they show you to on their scholarship page is private scholarships, or they send you to fast web or going merry, that's not a good indication. They usually have a lot of scholarships that they're sending you elsewhere. Also, besides the net price calculator, one other great resource that I love is our good friend Mark Salisbury, tuition fit, and it's a really great way to unpack what the net price of a college is likely to be. So sticker price is what you see online, that cost of attendance. Net Price is what families are actually paying. So it gives, it gives a lot of really great information by kind of crowdsourcing multiple award letters. So he does ask you to contribute, if you can an award letter to the database. But it's a great resource. There's one other paid source, college aid, pro i They don't pay me to be their spokesperson, spoke person or anything, but I know that they have a pretty vast database of of scholarships, of institutional scholarships, and what's what's out there. They allow folks to do kind of a Create Your Own Adventure, DIY approach, where you can just access their data, but they also have folks that are available to help Ethan Sawyer 29:45 in a few minutes here, I want to get into some practical steps that folks can take once they're done listening. But before we do let's bust some college affordability myths. And I'm gonna, you know what? I'm gonna I know that you have a couple in mind. Well, you just kind of set a couple of these up and. Maybe I'll jump in with a couple? Speaker 1 30:01 Yeah, sure. So I am out and about often at the grocery store, hi, like in the elevator, wherever, and I hear people say things about paying for college. And I can't help myself, I just have to jump in. So here's some things that I hear folks say that I just, I just say, I do this for a living. Can I? Can I chat to you, with you for a second? So one of them is you can ask. You could totally ask colleges for more money, if the author's enough, just go back and say more, and they they want you to negotiate. And I've heard you can appeal your financial aid packages. So this is true, but when it's realistic and you're actually getting more money, is maybe a little bit fuzzy for folks. So there are times that you absolutely should appeal. So heaven forbid, a student loses a parent, or a parent loses their job for six months, or their home is in the epicenter of a natural disaster, or they have additional family members to support that they didn't last year. All of these are reasons all these are truly impactful financial events, and the colleges are prepared to work with you. The FAFSA uses what's called prior priority year. So the FAFSA is delayed by two years. So take your graduation year, subtract two. That's the tax year that the FAFSA will use to determine how much age you need. So if there's been a significant change, parents have separated. Now you just live with dad, or whatever it is that's a significant event that the fast is not going to be able to track, or at least not very well or completely. So in that case, what you need to do is you file the FAFSA, you do the things, you answer, the questions they ask you to answer as best as you can, and the way they ask them. And then you follow up with the financial aid office, and you say, Hey, we've done the FAFSA. But here's what the FAFSA doesn't capture. It doesn't capture this change since the time it's asking about. And that's where there's something called professional judgment that colleges can work with families on now, if there is this other form. So I talked about FAFSA, which everyone should do, and most colleges need that form. But there are a subset of colleges, the really generous ones that I mentioned before that are really generous to folks who need it. They use a different form called the CSS Profile. For years, people asked me what CSS did for and I didn't know, and I finally looked up it was called, it's college scholarship service, which is such a misnomer, because it's not about scholarships, it's about grants. But whatever, it's okay. I'll let slide. So the CSS Profile, I can do a FAFSA in about 15 minutes with with the new one coming out, I might be able to do it quicker. A CSS Profile takes me, like, four hours, y'all so long. It asks about how much money you have in your HSA account. It asks about just everything, private school tuition, all of it. So they also, on the CSS has this additional information box of like, tell us everything else. So if you're doing if you're applying for financial aid to a CSS Profile school, you don't need to call it the financial aid office, because you can already put all that stuff in there, because they ask you about what do you expect it to be for the next year, and are there changes all that's already built in. So it's only if you're applying to FAFSA only schools, or whichever schools you're applying to that are fast for only they are the ones who would need to be updated to what's going on. There's one other thing that there's one other reason you could appeal, and this is the one that a lot of folks you know think that they can kind of get away with, is, hey, college, you gave me this award letter, but this college down the street gave me a better deal. Let's work that can happen, but I'm going to tell you it's probably not going to happen with public institutions. It's not going to happen with those less than 25% admit institutions, either you're going to get and or they have people waiting behind you. So those less competitive schools like say you have a Mars Hill and Elise McCrae and one gives you $5,000 more, and you want to try to talk to them about it, you can that. Don't have to say yes, but if they're comparable, less competitive private institutions, sure, you can ask. The worst you're gonna be told is no. But other institutions I don't seeing it being particularly effective. Another myth that I hear is that everyone who isn't quote, super rich, whatever that means, takes on debt to pay for college. And the question I get asked is, What would I say to someone who sees debt as the only way to pay for college? And in true Socratic tradition, I would respond with a couple of questions. First, first question, have you filled out your FAFSA? Because if you haven't, how do you know that you haven't gotten, you know, additional aid besides debt? So that would be one. The next question I would ask is, which colleges are you considering and what resources do they have like, do they have grants? Do they have scholarships? Do they apply to you? And so if the answers to both of those, I filled out the FAFSA, and I'm not getting any federal aid, I'm in a state that doesn't give anything, and the colleges have no reason to reward me money. So then the final question I would ask is, would. Be open to an alternative pathway. So whether that's transferring in, like some states are friendly to students who want to do community college for a year in their state and then transfer in. A lot of them are, but some of them are. What about AmeriCorps? AmeriCorps, especially the N triple C program, is a great program that I think is often overlooked because you do a year, especially for kids who, like, don't know what they want to do, you can apply to college, get it locked in of, okay, I'm going, and then can I just defer a year? And like, come a year later, in colleges, for the most part, will be pretty supportive of that. And then you go off and you have adventures for a year, of like, serving in different ways, and then they give you the whole Pell Grant Award at the end to pay for college. Like, you know, so 7400 is what it was last year. So that's pretty great for some students, military services away or going and working for someone getting tuition reimbursement. Like, would they be open to that kind of pathway? If they're saying no, no, it's I gotta go. I gotta be on the quad. I gotta do my intramural sports. I am so ready for college, then my question would be, are you open to a financially viable substitute? So I mentioned my student who is looking at the SEC schools. I'm not a believer in, you know, Cinderella scenarios with colleges. I think students can bloom where they're planted. I really struggle with the idea of a dream school. Now, that's not to say that you can't absolutely love a school and everything it has to offer that's fantastic, but there are 3000 institutions. If you got one that you really like, I'm sure there's another one that's got a lot of similar qualities that you could probably go for that is a financially viable substitute. So that's where knowing that is a little bit harder, and that's where someone like me as a professional to professional tends to come in and say, Okay, you want this. Have you tried this? But as a quick substitute and a shout out to Dr Steven Anton off the college Express site, where it's got those lists, those lists and rankings. When you click on a college, you know, with a certain attribute that you like, it'll suggest other colleges that are similar. You could look into those colleges and do they? Are they going to be more financially friendly to you, because you get something similar for a much, much reduced cost? Ethan Sawyer 37:11 Yeah, and the just to footnote what Amanda's talking about in terms of Stephen Anton off he he's sort of like the guy when it comes to college lists. He wrote a book called The college finder, and the lists that are in the college finder are searchable on college Express. So we'll link to that in the show notes as well. You know another one, Amanda that I'm coming up with is, like, folks sometimes, or I've heard them say, is, like, college just isn't worth it. It's just way too expensive. And I think there's sort of like extremist thinking, where they're kind of like, I'm just not gonna go to college, or I'm not even gonna consider private schools, because when I look at the price tag, I'm just like, No way. What do you say to folks who are trying to figure out if college is even worth it? I would Speaker 1 37:53 tell them I have absolutely been in your shoes. So full disclosure, I'm the first one of my family to have gone to college, and the response when I told my my maternal grandfather was, why would you pay that much money for four years when you could be working and earning that much money for you? Like, it just didn't it just didn't compute. And so, like, I've had that conversation, and my parents gave me the freedom of, would you rather go to college or not? Like there wasn't that pressure. So I've had this conversation with myself. And so what I would say to folks is the first thing you have to understand is college is a tool, not a ticket. So it's not I have this degree, therefore my life is all set. It's what are you hoping to get out of those four years? And are you willing to put in the work once you're there, to get those things out of it? So you know, are you trying to get internships and build a network? Are you trying to build your your writing and your reading abilities, like, what? What is it that you're seeking get out of it? Because no matter what your field is getting, becoming better at what you do is essential. So for some people, learning on the job might be the way to go. But for me, like I grew up watching what you know, my dad did every day, not with a college, not having a college degree. And I just said, No, I want. I want to do something different. I want to live in a different place. I want to explore different things. I want to, you know, travel abroad, do all this. So for me, college was worth it as a growing experience, as, you know, a way to figure out who I was, but also to build a network. Every job I've had since I've graduated has been because of someone I knew and them encouraging me. So there are plenty of amazing, affordable options. A lot of people, when they think college, they think four year institution. There are many, many pathways to build expertise in your field. So specialized knowledge, professional networks, enhanced ability to reason, to communicate, soft skills, those are all things you get in college. If you can get those without college, and you see a pathway and you are adamant about not being in debt, that's great. College is just a concentrated dose of that, and that's worthwhile. That's bill. Those skills and meeting those people, that's that's what makes it worth. It awesome. With that in mind, a lot of folks ask, Well, shouldn't I just go to community college first then, like, if it's all the same, if a degree is a degree is a degree. And, you know, because real college, quote, unquote, is too expensive, you know, if I get the same degree, either way, if I graduate from a school after transferring, it doesn't say, you know, via Community College, it's just the same, right? And what I would say to those folks is, it really depends on fit, just like you look at different institutions, different four year institutions, or how good of a fit they will be for you, for their majors, for their you know, social aspects Community College is the same. I don't know how well I would have fared in community college, because you have to be really, really independent. There's a lot. There's a reason it's less expensive because there's not as much support. A lot of times as what you get at a four year institution, there's not, you know, the Counseling Center or the, you know, Activities Committee. Some community colleges do have those, but it really is. It needs to be the fit for you. So if you're a student who can navigate that and then apply partway through your second year, go through the whole application process, then without your high school counselor there to support you, then great. But it does take a pretty independent and on top of a person to make that transferee, I know when I started at my first high school, doing college advising, probably the track record for every 10 students who left the high school and said they wanted to transfer, about only one of them did. We made some progress. It made it up to about three out of 10 by the time I was I was done with that position, but it takes effort, so I wouldn't assume it's a straight shot easy pathway for a lot of folks, beautiful. Ethan Sawyer 41:45 What about the myth that you can't or shouldn't apply out of state because it's just going to be too expensive no matter what? That's Speaker 1 41:52 a great point. So I've already talked about how out of state public institutions can be maybe not unfriendly, but certainly not helpful to a lot of a lot of students who are trying to go to them and trying to make it affordable, but for private institutions, it doesn't matter what state you're in, like, that's not something they account for when they're looking at price. They may have a little bit of help for students from their state, but it's pretty fair game. So what it comes down to is the difference between cost of attendance, which is that published sticker price that includes for the record five different things a lot of people don't think about. Everyone thinks about tuition and fees. Everyone thinks about room and board, now renamed housing and and room. But the ones they don't think about are transportation and books and supplies and personal expenses. They count for things like going to the movies and, you know, buying deodorant, although that is theoretically included in that cost of attendance number. So that's not the number you actually write a check for to the college. So that's that's not the cost you're paying them. But the other side of it, it's not cost of attendance, is something called net cost. Net cost is what you actually pay, and that's the highest it could possibly be is that cost of attendance number, for most people, it's actually much less, less. So I never tell a student not to apply to a college because it's too expensive. I tell them that just like they have admissions slam dunk and target and reach schools, they should have the same thing for financial aid. They should have a couple of schools where they are almost certain that even if the college doesn't give them a dime, they're going to be able to make it work. And then maybe you have a couple of those. I don't know how you're going to make this affordable, but let's just see. So apply out of state, apply to that school you really love, because Stranger things have happened. Maybe there's a scholarship we didn't account for, but I wouldn't load your list up with those of those hopefuls of maybe, just maybe it'll work, because that's a lot of work to write all those essays and apply to all the schools and pay those fees. So just just be cognizant of it when you're cognizant of it, when you're making those college application like lists of where you're going to apply, you can have a few, but not, not a ton, Ethan Sawyer 44:05 by the way, when folks listening in the future, when Amanda mentioned going to the movies before Netflix, for those of you, there was there was a they had these things called movie theaters that you could go to, and you would sit in these cool chairs, and you could get a A Coke and, like, lots of popcorn. And it was really very overpriced popcorn. It was so cool. And I just, I'm sorry that y'all don't get to experience Unknown Speaker 44:27 it in the future more and everything. Ethan Sawyer 44:31 It was so awesome. What about folks who, you know, families who feel like they make too much money, and they're like, we're not even going to fill out a FAFSA because there's no chance we're going to get any money anyway? Speaker 1 44:42 Oh, I love talking to these folks. So the first thing I ask them is if they think they can, if they are intending to pay for college entirely with their own money, with cash, with just like, with quarters, yeah, of course, yeah. Just like, are you going to write a check for that cost of attendance if you are happy and comfort? Doing that for all the schools your students attending? Okay, sure. Ethan Sawyer 45:04 But then by okay, sure, you mean, yes, you don't have to fill out the FAFSA like, don't fill Speaker 1 45:09 it out if that's if that's the world you live in. I'm very happy and pleased for you. But the other thing I would say is, Well, okay, I've done this for, oh gosh, almost a decade now. I've had families who make $40,000 tell me that they make too much. And I've had families who make a quarter of a million dollars a year tell me that makes too much. And guess what? Depending on assets and the number of, you know, kids in your family and a few other things, it's not everything you can account for. So there's not I get asked all the time for a threshold of like, well, what's the dollar amount? Where I don't have to fill out a Fauci anymore? I'm like, what? Anymore? I'm like, Well, do you have eight kids? Do you have, you know, lots of assets, like, what is going on? So I never I advise filling out a FAFSA regardless, because everyone I talk to thinks they're middle income, no matter where they are on the range. The other thing I would say is, obviously they have the opportunity to get student loans. Everybody who files a FAFSA automatically has the option to take out those federal student loans that are off often at a lower interest rate than a private loan would be. So that's an option, and some families like to have their student have a little bit of skin in the game. All right, student, you're gonna take out these loans, and when you graduate, we'll pay them off for you. If you don't, then they're on you. So that might be a reason to do it. Another thing is, you never plan for catastrophe. There's some colleges that, let's say you have the horrendous scenario of losing the parent, and that parent was the breadwinner, if you didn't file a FAFSA and before the tragedy, then they don't have anything to compare it against, to understand how much of a loss occurred. So they're gonna there's gonna be a delay in being able to help you make those adjustments in that professional judgment. So colleges just love to have that FAFSA on file. You do have the option of filing the FAFSA and not putting a school on it, just so that the fastest filed and it's there if you really don't want the colleges to see it, you have that option. So I say it's better safe than sorry. Like, just apply for the financial aid and don't I think, I think others have said this, but don't try to game the system. Don't say, like, Oh, we don't, we totally don't need a we don't need aid. And then apply and get in and say, Oh, just kidding, we need aid. Because guess what, they may have already given it all out. So be be honest through the whole process. That's the best policy. So if you need the aid file, the FAFSA, even if you don't think you need the aid file, the FAFSA, another reason just occurred to me is that even if you don't get federal aid again, so this board, you could get that state aid, you could get institutional aid. It's not just the federal aid I have, can tell you the number of parents who were surprised that, oh well, we didn't get the Pell Grant, but we still got this $5,000 grant from the college because we filled out the FAFSA. So it's, it's always a good idea. There are a few exceptions where I might not, but for the most part, it's a good idea. Ethan Sawyer 47:59 Before we get to practical next steps, let's talk about debt for a minute. So my own relationship to this, I went to undergrad at Northwestern, and I was a zero EFC kid, which meant my expected family contribution was zero, which was, like, bad going in to it, but like, great for financial aid purposes, you know. But so I ended up with, like, you know, it was like, six or $7,000 in loans per year or something. So I was like, I came out of college undergrad with like, 28,000 or so in debt, which I was like, Yeah, I felt pretty great about it. And then went to grad school, and it was, like, a lot of it was paid for, but you have to take out loans to, like, pay for housing and stuff. So it was like, I don't know, 25 a year or something. And so for those let's, let's turn this into a myth. It's something like, you know, let's say the myth is something like, you shouldn't have any debt when you graduate college. Let's, let's qualify this a little bit. What is a it's hard to answer this generally, but like, let's call it a reasonable, what's a reasonable amount of debt? Or what does it depend on? I should say so Speaker 1 48:59 a reasonable amount of debt would depend on what you're going to do when you graduate. So for my fellow educators out there, if you are going to take a job as a public school teacher and make $35,000 a year, okay, well, then going more than $25,000 in debt would give me a little bit of pause if you're going to be a paper science major at Clemson and walk out making 90 grand right off the bat. Okay, sure you could go 60 grand in debt. That would be fine. So it just depends on what your what capacity you're going to have to pay it back when you're out. That would be part of it, as for graduating, maybe without any debt, or thinking, you know, debt is a bad thing, I would ask, how many people plan to pay cash for their house. I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's an investment. So I don't think it's practical to say you shouldn't have any debt. Some, some people are very fortunate and can do that. And if you're really set on that, there are some great work colleges that have no debt built in to how they do it. I'm thinking of, you know, college of the. Ozarks, if that's your cup of tea and you really want to do that, great. Or, you know, if you want to go to the Naval Academy, where it's not, you know, they don't charge anything, that'd be great. But if you're not willing to budge on where you're willing to go, then you need to be able to budge on how much debt you're going to take. So it's one of the other either be flexible with your college list or be flexible with the amount of debt and map that out beautiful. Ethan Sawyer 50:24 All right, let's get practical. So folks have listened to all of this awesome information. What do they actually do in order to figure out this whole financial planning piece for college? Absolutely, Speaker 1 50:35 I know when I've chatted with people, they've they've said it's kind of like drinking from a fire hose so into, in order to have, like, digestible pieces, actually wrote a paying for college guide. It's nice, short to the point, and it comes in four pieces. There's four pieces to it. So the scholarships portion talks about, well, where do I look for local scholarships? How do I find institutional ones? What keywords should I be searching? Do you have a favorite scholarship website? All of that there. I also got that handy little quadrants we talked about, and it details more. It talks about international colleges, community college, other things that we didn't get to in our time, about financial fit and how to find your financial fit. And then it talks about the FAFSA and CSS profile, some pro tips about how to make that as little as as least painful as possible to go through because, you know, I think I'm one of the only humans who actually enjoys filling out a FAFSA. So it's fine. And then the last bit is about award letters, how to read an award letter, how to go about an appeal, that sort of thing. So it's those are the bits that'll be in there. And hopefully that would folks can double dutch in wherever they they feel like they where they are on that process. So if they're looking for scholarships, they're figuring out their college list, they can take what Ethan Sawyer 51:52 they need from it. Love it, all right. So as we wrap what final words of wisdom or advice would you give to let's say, let's do students, and then parents and then counselors. So Speaker 1 52:04 to students that would tell them to be flexible with their plans, it is totally okay to not know where you're going or where's the best fit. But by the same token, be curious. Just keep asking questions. Keep seeking help. The there's a direct correlation between how fulfilled happy you know you're going to be with where you end up going, and how much effort you put in to figuring out where you want to go in the first place. So what I mean by that is I had a college advisor give me a list of seven schools I applied, and then I visited them, and four of them I would never have applied to if I'd put any research in. So do your due diligence. Start now seek help and just be curious. Look for those maybe unconventional ways of approaching the paying for college problem. They will things can appear for parents. I would say you are on the team of your students, you love them and want what's best for them. So let your student drive the bus of this college process, but keep their tank fueled. One way to do that is to find the scholarships that you hope that they will apply for to help ask them how you can help. Say, what do you need? Do you need me to look up things about a college do you just keeping supporting them, not driving the process, but asking what do you need me to do? I find that's actually really powerful for parents, and maybe offer a couple of suggestions of how you could help, but letting them need it. And speaking of finding scholarships, my advice for counselors is almost never have I just told a student, go apply for scholarships, and it has magically happened, and they have come back having won all the scholarships. It's just it's so daunting for kids, of like, what scholarships? Where's my you know, if I put a paper in their hands, they would fill it out happily. It might be done in Purple Crayon, unless I tell them differently, but like, it would be done. But it's that advice that they just don't they've never done this before for us. You know, a lot of us are veterans of this process. We've done it year in, year and out, but it's the first time for these kids, and they just don't know what they're doing. So I have a very, very practical tip here. Is take 15 to 20 minutes go to that paying for college guide I mentioned and totally steal my lines. If you see something in there that is useful and helpful and you're like, Yeah, that's a great way to put that. Take it. It's yours. Like, just there are more students than I could possibly help my own. You all are rock stars, so go help them apply for scholarships by giving them some practical, step by step, things to do that's a little bit more what sort of looking for, scaffolded than than just apply. Ethan Sawyer 54:48 I love that advice, and you're so generous, and I'm so grateful for for your contributions. And fun fact, for counselors who are listening, there's an awesome course that has Pay What You Can spots that. We'll link to in the show notes that Amanda leads, and there's a court it's there's one for school counselors, and there's one for independent Educational Consultants. So we'll link that in the show notes. Amanda, I just want to say thanks again. You're such a rock star, and I'm just grateful for every hour I get to spend with you. Likewise, Ethan, have an awesome day. You too. Thanks as ever for listening. You'll find the show notes at college sa guy.com/podcast including links to all the things we talked about. Hey, if you're into this stuff and you want to learn more, Amanda was too shy to talk about her courses on financial aid on the podcast, but I'm not you'll find more info at that same link that I just mentioned, college essay guy.com/podcast Amanda's created a course for families and separate courses for high school counselors with large case loads and independent educational consultants who work more one on one, with Pay What You Can options, because, of course, she has Pay What You can options, be well friends and stay curious. You. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
