615: Rethinking “Best” Colleges: Tools, Tips, and Mindset Shifts for a Better College List with Jay McCann and Dr. Steven Antonoff, Co-Authors of The College Finder

Speaker 1 (00:00)
There's nothing wrong with a great student wanting prestige. The problem comes with the interpretation of what is prestigious. And many students believe, and many parents believe, and many counselors, I think, believe that there's a handful of colleges that are really prestigious. You know, I've spent my life


traveling to colleges, writing about colleges, talking about colleges. I honestly feel that there are at least 200 incredibly prestigious schools, and that may be underestimating it.


Speaker 2 (00:52)
Hi friends and welcome back to the podcast. So in today's episode, I'm joined by Dr. Steven Antonoff and Jay McCann, co-authors of the newly updated fifth edition of The College Finder, your comprehensive guide to finding colleges that fit your unique path. And I've been really excited to do this one. This is a follow-up to an episode that I did with Steve the first year the podcast came out.


And one thing I really love about the college finder is that instead of ranking schools, it organizes colleges into hundreds of creative lists. things like colleges with strong sociology programs or colleges that are most like Hogwarts or even colleges for students needing a second chance. And even though we're not going to get into the practicalities of like, here's a step-by-step guide to developing your college list. We've got that linked in the show notes. It's called how to choose a college, a step-by-step guide.


So in this conversation, we dig into some of the biggest questions that students and families have around the college search, including things like, what, if anything, are rankings good for this year? And well, really any year beyond starting salaries, which outcome metrics actually indicate value? What's a responsible way for students to use AI in the search phase and what should they avoid? How do you plan a high yield campus visit or a virtual visit that actually informs fit?


And what's the most productive role for parents at each stage of this process? If you've never met Jay McCann, he's the coauthor of the College Finder. He earned his graduate degree at San Diego State, where he was part of the Native American Scholars and Collaborators Grant, focusing on education and community engagement. He started his counseling career in Denver Public Schools, where he served as department chair before moving to Valor Christian High School and now the Westminster schools in Atlanta. He's the founder of Future to Find College Consulting.


As for Dr. Steven Antonoff, he spent over 30 years in higher education, including founding Antonoff Associates in 1981, through which he's counseled thousands of students and families. He has a PhD in human communication studies, an MA in education, and a BS in psychology. He's a former dean of admission and financial aid, executive director at admissions and student affairs, and dean of students at the University of Denver. He's the founding chair of the American Institute for Certified Educational Planners.


And he's the recipient of the IECA Professional Achievement Award, which was renamed the Stephen R. Antonoff Award in recognition of his service. Whether you're a student counselor or parent, I hope you get a lot out of this episode. Enjoy.


Hi friends and welcome, welcome, welcome. Welcome to the session today. I'd love to know what's a role or identity that is not listed in your bio that you feel like is also important if I were to know who Jay is.


Speaker 3 (03:39)
game time decision I would go with collector because I obviously you know what the books about but I love playlists I love like a best of I I'm a sucker for any type of algorithm where I can think about movies and music and all those fun things


Speaker 2 (03:57)
Love it, love it. As for Steve, welcome and give us a roller identity that is important to you that's not listed in your bio.


Speaker 1 (04:05)
You know, looking at the list, I would say ambassador for me. like I am kind of a bridge between colleges and students and try to interpret what colleges have to offer to students. and and in some ways, I'm an ambassador both for colleges and for students in this process.


Speaker 2 (04:32)
love that. That feels really, really true. Thanks. So let's start talking about discovery and fit. So Steve, first question for you. What do you feel like students need to understand about themselves before they even start their college search?


Speaker 1 (04:46)
Well, the first thing they think they need to understand is that they will be confused. And I think it's OK to be confused. And I think a good college search starts with that confusion. In addition to that, I think they need to understand that they are in control, that they have the power to pick from many hundreds, thousands of great colleges.


So I think that that is something that they need to understand. And finally, I think they need to understand that finding a good college takes time and it it's it's not easy and it's going to take several hours of research. And we can talk about the ways to research later. Those are the those are the things that come to mind when I think of what students need to understand at the beginning of their search.


Speaker 2 (05:45)
Jay, question for you. When you see students go through this process, what are some of the common mismatches that you see between what students say they want and what actually, what the actual schools on their list are?


Speaker 3 (05:57)
Yeah, I think one of them was the classroom experience versus the social experience, right? I'm just going to plug. Steve has a great thing on his website called like a college match self survey. And on there, it's a great resource for students to be able to see what is a classroom setting where you might thrive. And there's a conversation there, right? Like, do you want more engagement with your classroom? And so I think that's


always a good conversation to start because there is often the mismatch where they say, but I really love the Big Ten Conference or whatever it might be. The second one I think about is scholarships versus prestige. And so there's this sense of like, really want some good scholarship opportunities. And then we also really want a certain brand or a certain name that we really like as a bumper sticker.


And so there's sometimes a tension there about what that will look like because obviously those can be two different sides of the coin. I used to do an activity when I was in Colorado where I'd ask students to get up and move around the room based upon their responses. And one time I asked them how far away from home do you want to be? And when I do it with juniors, they move to the opposite side of the room. They want to be as far away from mom as possible, no offense parents, but they just think about, � that's a high priority to me.


And then I start to ask, like, okay, so you want to leave these friendships that you might have? You're also where's the best place to go skiing in the country? Right. Like, and they start to realize like, there's a there's a lifestyle that I also really appreciate about where I'm at. And so those are the kind of three ones that I find are interesting, like mismatches I go through.


Speaker 2 (07:37)
Steve, I'd love to hear when a student is starting this process. You've got, first of all, such great worksheets. I'll name a few of them, and we'll link to them in the show notes. But there's the College Match Self-Survey. There's the College Planning Values Assessment and the Audit of College Success Traits, including actually the qualities that will make the college right for you. These are all worksheets that are free. They're on Steve's website that we'll link to you. How much time? I know that it's sort of like, well, it depends. But how much time do you think a student should spend? Let's say they're in September.


How much time do you think it's a quote unquote good amount of time for them to spend thinking about what they're looking for? Assuming that they can't just do it for months and months, that they're starting, let's say, even late in the process.


Speaker 1 (08:17)
Yeah, it's hard to really say the amount of time, but some time ought to be devoted. And I think for most students, no time is devoted to really thinking about who they are. So my feeling is that doing some of these surveys, whether it's from College Match or something that your counselor might have in his or her office,


is absolutely essential. I think most students start with colleges before they start with a self inventory. And that is inherently backwards. And so I encourage students to and it's not only doing a survey, it's talking to your friends and asking them how they perceive who you are.


Asking your parents, asking your parents, friends, relatives, certainly your counselor or consultant. See how people are viewing you. All of those things, I think, can really help to get a good start on this college planning.


Speaker 2 (09:27)
Yeah, one of the conversations I had with a colleague recently was, you know, we sort of sit with this notion of like some people like to develop their college list based, like engineer a list based on the student. And some people come into this process and they want to engineer a student based on the list. And that, you know, sort of dichotomy seems to speak to a lot of what some of the tension is sometimes.


Speaker 1 (09:45)
Indeed.


Speaker 2 (09:54)
when, which we're going to get into in just a minute, when it comes to like coming into this process, what I'm hearing you say is like engineer the list based on the student instead of the other way around.


Speaker 1 (10:03)
It's really important. do think that, you know, College Finder has a whole bunch of really interesting lists in the lifestyle section. College is right for a contrarian. College is right for a lover of ideas. College is right for a leader. Those kinds of lists can prompt students to think about who they are.


and the sort of environment that they want in a college.


Speaker 2 (10:34)
Yeah, that's one of my favorite ways to like start thinking about colleges. And this is just one more practical thing for y'all is just opening up the book and just paging through and seeing what kinds of colleges are out there just based on these lists. So one simple practical thing you can do is like just open the book and start exploring. Well, what is it that I'm actually looking for? Certainly you can take the surveys and do it that way, but also just like going shopping. We sometimes joke that like students will spend more shopping for more time shopping for headphones than they will like researching colleges.


Speaker 1 (11:05)
It's true. And that's and that's a shame. And that's why you end up with a lot of students transferring. It's why you end up with students who are not pleased about their college search. They haven't approached it step by step.


Speaker 2 (11:23)
So let's talk about rankings for a little bit because you know, it's something that folks often use when they're starting off Jade you feel like what if rankings good for are you on that field of like just ignore them or are you more like well in their place? They're useful


Speaker 3 (11:37)
If I try to tell when I bring it up in front of families, they used to have this magazine, US News and World Report. whenever I, the only time that I brought it out was when families said, can you help me? Like, which of these schools are going to give me scholarships? And so it was like reverse scholarships hunting because I would pull up the list and I would say, start at the top and we're going to say no.


from the beginning, right? So like, look at this list. This is a long list of no scholarships that are coming to you because they only do need base aid, right? Is inherent to their process. And so like we start to move down and right around thirties, if you're really kind of standing out, you can receive some and then you move down that list. I like it, honestly, just to give a little bit more context to families that are thinking about like that question of like, what should I see in terms of money coming back? Because scholarships


is a big part of what people ask in the value process. So I like it in that way. But the other thing I like is rankings are becoming like more murky, you know, as in there are like every publication has their own rankings, right? And, you know, Steve and I have joked about like, what was it that I think what Playboy and Sierra Club and what did all these schools have in common is that like they all have a college ranking, you know, like and


And that's what's kind of interesting about it is the college finder in some ways is the antithesis of college rankings because we are about trying to cut it up as many possible ways as we can. But yet you'll still see like in the international chapter, we list some of the global rankings in there. You'll see things that are there. But I think philosophically, what we like is


We want the student to show up first in the process and then start their search, right? Is I think what we're saying. And so when you start to realize there's 1200 ways of saying this is a best college, right? Or more, right? Like the book is. Then I think it comes to a really fun personal process instead of it just being someone was behind the curtain and said 5 % of what we should pay attention to is.


the suggested outcomes for this graduation group, right? So I like it, you know, the possibility of us being able to put it in their place. that's why like it. There's a smorgasbord out there.


Speaker 2 (14:05)
to know, Steve, when it comes to like, when you because we do have some some counselors who are listening, when there's a family that you feel like is very prestige fixed, and they're saying, you know, here's our list of schools, and it's Ivy Leagues robust. What are some of the questions that you ask? What are some of the things you like to say in those kinds of conversations? Yeah.


Speaker 1 (14:24)
Well, there's nothing wrong with a great student wanting prestige. The problem comes with the interpretation of what is prestigious. And many students believe and many parents believe and many counselors, I think, believe that there's a handful of colleges that are really prestigious and the rest somehow.


are not. You know, I've spent my life traveling to colleges, writing about colleges, talking about colleges. I honestly feel that there are at least 200 incredibly prestigious schools, and that may be underestimating it. So I don't think the problem is looking at prestige. I think the problem is


making sure that that that when you look at a college, you realize the many ways that a college can be outstanding and recognize those ways as being ways that you're going to fit in. Be successful, be happy and so forth.


Speaker 2 (15:42)
what you're saying. Let's talk about what constitutes value in the college experience. like even let's say maybe even go beyond starting salaries. What are some of those metrics that you look at or that you tell families to look at when it comes to assessing the value of a college education?


Speaker 3 (15:58)
man. One of things I really like is the Center for Education in the Workforce, as Georgetown does. And so a few years ago, they did like a top programs right out of college and based on like the value of how much money you put into it as well. I think that the term is net present value. And they found like right out of the gate, a lot of two year colleges showed up, right? And so it's interesting that when we look at like, how much do we make right away?


we could shortchange and say, then don't even get a bachelor's degree, right? And so I think it was illuminating because there's a lot more ways that we could look at this. But when you look at 10 years out, once people are through their graduate and professional, there's more stark differences there. And so I think it's so hard that what you say is how do we indicate value is it is a values driven process, right? Like same as like Steve says, like people can, I find that's best not to attack.


family's values, right? We want to come along and find what that alignment is. So for me, I always want to start off with getting a sense of what their non-negotiables are of, as in, are you comfortable with snow? you know, like, are those kinds of things that can we look at? then starting to dial in a little bit further towards what value could be, what sometimes people can see, there's a lot of metrics that can give you a little bit and not give you everything, right? So for instance, six-year graduation rate.


And retention rate, which is how many students come back their second year, are really interesting to pay attention. And you can see that it shows how students are progressing. Are they getting the opportunity to take classes and finish? But it also has a socioeconomic element to it. So it's like it's good, but it's also you have to realize there's limits to it. And I think that's the thing with all these values is we can put in a metric and and have a certain thing that comes out on the other side of it.


I guess to me, I think about like, I come from a small farming community in Northern Indiana. And I have to keep in mind that for a lot of those families, they wanted the opportunity to go to college to be able to find someone they can marry and be able to come back to like a place where they can farm the land that their ancestors had. And so it's interesting because again, this is a values given process and like, how are you gonna do that?


there's a difference between Purdue and Indiana in terms of that outcome, right? Like just in terms of how that plays out. So I think I've lived my adult life in urban settings that aren't that way, but it's worth asking about like success. I think we as a society have always historically valued like writers and educators and ministers and social workers. And so there's always these like people that are trying to create a more perfect union.


And I love that, right? And so I also want to ask the questions like, do you value Teach for America and those that go on to the Peace Corps or Fulbright scholarships or some of those other things that helped me to see outcomes in a different light? Because you see engagement with that community so much more clearly about like, there's still a mission. It just doesn't mean there's one outcome, right? Right.


Speaker 2 (19:15)
When it comes to, let's, I want to stay on sort of thinking about the value or the values of different aspects of a college or university. Steve, when, when a student's trying to figure out, so they're starting this process and they're like, I'm looking for colleges that are good for blank, you know, that are good for engineering, that are good for whatever thing that they're interested in. I think oftentimes they're in the position of like just taking someone's word for it. You know, their counselors word for it, their friends word for it, you know, someone on Reddit. And what I love about the book is that it's like here,


Take our word for it, we who are like a community of hundreds of counselors who contributed to this and have been vetted by people who've been doing this for 30 years, but how does a student know? So let's say they see that Tufts is good for theater, how do they evaluate the program level strength for whatever the specific thing is at a particular college or university?


Speaker 1 (20:06)
Ethan, this is got to be sort of the X factor in college planning. I have been struggling for decades to find the answer to how you determine program strength, and I have yet to determine the answer to that question. I love this. So so I I honestly think, yes, you can look at at


at co-ops and licensure pass rates and first destination data. And I encourage students to do all of that. But the reality is there is no good measure of the academic strength of of particular departments. Now, there are reputational gauges. There are a lot of lists in the book that


are we asked. Well, in the book, there are over three hundred and seventy five what we call expert choice lists. And we ask the experts to identify schools that have great theater programs, that have wonderful business schools, that have great psychology programs. I I I trust that.


data a little bit more than I trust all of these individual indices of quality. The other thing about quality, and I don't want to harp on it, but quality changes so quickly. know, at a small college, particularly if you have six faculty members in a department and two leave that are two of the leading people in that field.


that is going to change. I worked at a university that was touting a particular program, and I knew it wasn't that strong. So I encourage students to do all of the checking, all of the, you know, looking at all of the databases and so forth and so on. Reading about what people feel about about quality, assessing it in terms of your visit. But


you're never going to know for sure about the academic quality of individual departments.


Speaker 2 (22:35)
You're reminding me of that old story about grandfather's old axe, where it's like if you change out the blade and then you change out the handle on grandfather's old axe, is it still?


Speaker 1 (22:46)
Right, right, exactly.


Speaker 2 (22:49)
Let's talk about culture then for a minute when it comes to, this is such a big thing for students. Like I want to place with a great campus culture. Are there any practical things or specific things that they can start to look for to get a sense of a campus vibe as it were?


Speaker 1 (23:03)
Well, that is one of the reasons that we wrote College Finder is for that vibe. It's not the be all or the end all of of of college searching. But part of your ability to assess vibe is your ability to look at what the experts think are


great schools for the contrarian? What what are incredible schools for a metalhead? That's not going to be a definitive answer, but it's going to be a answer on the route to learning about culture. You also I think some of the most valuable


parts of the Fisk guide to colleges are the paragraphs about what the student life is like. I think those paragraphs are more insightful than the paragraphs about academic strengths. Although there's there's there's there's there's good stuff everywhere and bad stuff everywhere. But I think looking at the at the at the paragraphs about student.


culture and and what students are like and what the vibe is. I sometimes ask students or or or yeah, I ask students on on my visits to colleges. What's the glue that holds this place together? You know, is the glue outdoors? Is the glue athletics? Is the glue beer? Is it intellectual pursuit? That's that's


one way to get a sense of vibe.


Speaker 2 (25:03)
Yeah, I love that. Jay, do you have anything you'd add to that in terms of like when students go on campus, advice that you give to them in terms of understanding what is the community, what is the culture?


Speaker 3 (25:14)
I also other questions like, if you pick up the school newspaper, that's always a good kind of treat to have, but what are they doing on a Wednesday night? What are people doing on a Saturday night? And I want to get a sense, is this a suitcase campus where people are going home on the weekends? Is there some fun traditions that people kind of stay around for? And then the last question, this feels controversial, but I've been doing it for years, is I always ask people who would hate going here? Because you can always get...


Like admissions office, a lot of it is marketing, right? Is like they're trying to sell everyone on the potential of a school. But if you can ask someone to say specifically like, this actually is a little bit more of a problem. And I've learned more from asking students that question than anything else, any other question, because it gives way more vibes.


Speaker 1 (26:03)
And you never want to ask, do you like it here? That that doesn't tell you anything. The question is, what do you like? What are the positive features about the place? What are the negatives? As Jay said, talk about weekend life here. What happened last Saturday? I like to be as specific as possible.


Do you know two professors well enough to get a recommendation for graduate school or for a job? What clubs are you involved with? Which clubs would you say are the most popular on campus? The more specific you can be, the better chance you have of learning what that vibe is like.


Speaker 3 (26:55)
And then, sorry, can I jump in on that? Like it's the outcomes talk is even asking them like, what are your friends that have graduated? What's their process been leaving? Right? And, you know, I mean, like what's going on on the other side of after the diploma comes through.


Speaker 2 (27:12)
prefer to categorize schools? What terms do you like?


Speaker 1 (27:16)
I wish the college planning world would get rid of the word reach, target, and backup. And the reason is that what we're talking about when we categorize schools is admissions likelihood. So I prefer low chance of admission schools, medium chance of admission schools, and high chance of admission schools.


I believe that the word reach sounds aspirational and it sounds like it's better in some way. But the important thing is to keep in mind that we're just talking about admission. I also don't like backup because it sounds like who would ever want to go to a backup after all, which reminds me that that that everyone needs good


colleges in all of the in all three categories or whatever you call the categories. And and it's it's it's very easy these days to I think to some extent it's maybe easier to find low chance of admission schools and high chance of admission schools for some students. But but it's important that that that everyone has high chance of admission schools that they are comfortable with and they would go to.


and they would be happy at. if I could drill that into students, that concept, and most of the time I fail at being able to do that, but I sure try.


Speaker 2 (28:59)
Yeah, it's of the biggest ways that I see stress come down. When students say, hey, I'm stressed about this process, I'll ask them, how many schools do you have on your list that you're excited about and that you're more than 50 % you have, you know, greater than a 60 % chance of getting in there. And I'll ask that on like big webinars and see who raises their hand. And I'll tell you, the students who have a school that they're excited about and they can get into, there's just like this, there's this sense of like, I'm gonna be okay. I'm gonna get in somewhere.


And a way that I'm hearing y'all frame it, which I really like is thinking of this not as sort of like Stanford or bus. If I, know, defining success in terms of like, I get into the school that I've been a successful process, and if not, it's just like degrees of failure, but rather there's this sense of what I hear you saying, like foundational schools that are like here are the schools that I'm excited about that I can get into. And anything that's harder to get into beyond that is like awesome. But if I can focus my attention and energy on finding those schools that


Like you're saying, I can get into it and then I can fall in love with? Boy, that's the sweet spot.


Speaker 1 (30:03)
It is so it is so very is so very true. And also, I do want to also add, even though I mentioned three categories, low chance of admission, medium and high. These days, schools like Stanford, Harvard, most of the Ivies, I don't even classify them as low chance of admission, I classify them as wild cards. They're just so unpredictable.


when admissions decisions are made, it's often made on the basis of do we need more chemistry students? Do we need more students from Montana? Do we do we need this or that that has nothing to do with the students accomplishments in high school? And I think the more we can pass along that message, the more it may reduce a little bit of stress.


from students and parents who think that colleges are looking at this candidate and they're looking at their activities and their recommendations and that they're making a decision on all of those factors alone.


Speaker 2 (31:17)
Right and just to jump on this and to clarify for folks what Steve is saying here is not that colleges are quote-unquote out to get students or they have some like Nefarious thing where they're trying to like obscure things They actually just have a whole crap ton of things that they're trying to fulfill they call them institutional priorities we talk about them on a lot of different webinars and They're not not only they don't incentivize to share what those are But just imagine how that would the kind of tizzy that that would throw folks into if they're like we're looking for


you know, three new oboe players. First of how would they even communicate about that? And then what kind of mania would that create in sort of like in the world? And your point earlier, colleges are changing so fast. So they're just kind of getting these updates and finding out from the symphony, wow, we do need some oboe players. All right, cool. Let's start to look for that. the point that the point that you're making here is a really good one, which is like, there's only there's only so much you can do.


Speaker 1 (32:10)
Yes, and and and I try to convince students not to personalize an acceptance or rejection. That's practically impossible to do. And I I I recognize that. But but I do think, as you say, that once they realize that the admissions office has a whole host of other factors other than.


what you have done in high school, I think it can relieve a little bit of the tension.


Speaker 2 (32:44)
Give me a range, a student come into this process. How many schools should I apply to?


Speaker 1 (32:49)
I think that 12 to 15 these days, and it's mainly because of merit aid and financial aid. I do think that students need to apply to more colleges in 2025 than they did in 2020. I think that the...


need based situation is is changing. The merit based situation is always variable. And so I believe that that that 12 to 15. And that's a lot. I mean, that's that's many more than I would have advised. In 2020, but but but I think given the cost is such a major factor, I really think that for most students, they need the


variability that comes with 10 or a little bit more colleges to apply to.


Speaker 2 (33:53)
I promise we talk about AI a little bit. So I want to hear from you, either of you, whoever feels like answering. What's a responsible way for students to use AI in the process? Have you seen students using AI to research? What's your sense about that?


Speaker 1 (34:08)
Well, asking me what I whether students should use a eye, it would be like asking me whether students should use Google. Of course, they should use a eye. I mean, it's it's a new tool. It's it there. There's a tremendous database of information. I am all for students responsibly using.


AI as they would responsibly use Google or just generally the Internet. But you know, AI is is good for many questions in the search process. And it's not just tell me, you know, goods, you know, good schools and accounting or something, as I mentioned, that's as far as I'm concerned, very elusive.


But to ask what it's like to live in Charleston, for example, is is is a is a is a good thing to do to to ask about values of of of of smaller schools and bigger schools talking about or interacting with a eye on some of the qualities that you're looking for in a college. I think that can be very helpful. Clearly.


AI does not know a student and is not, you know, so so so, you know, to to ask what is the best match or something, you really have to rely on your counselor, your consultant, your parents and others. But to use AI for for for research is is absolutely the way to go.


Speaker 2 (35:56)
Yeah, yeah. And to that point, there's a guide that I'll link in the show notes here that's like a sort of a step-by-step guide that for those of you who are like, yeah, but what are the things that I do? What are the... It's all mapped out for you there. It's the one that I put together when we did the podcast the first time, but it's like, here are the resources to figure out what you're looking for. I think they're great resources. And then there's like, here are the places to find them, including the book.


including there's a quick and dirty list builder that Mark Moody put together, which stay tuned. The next podcast, Mark and I talk about that. That's another great starting place. But to your point, Steve, in terms of helping students figure out what they're looking for, I put together a little code I call my college preferences template with my counseling team, and it helps students to figure out, OK, here are the things that I'm interested in at, you know, at college. So it's kind of a synthesis really of some of your resources. They can fill it out in about 10 minutes.


And then they can put it into chat GPT or something like that and say, hey, be a college admission expert with, you know, encyclopedic knowledge of colleges and universities. Give me a list of 10 schools, universities that might, you know, fit my interests. And it's going to give students a pretty good starting place. And I'll link to this again in the show notes. I think it doesn't replace the sort of internal work and the nutritional value of sort of figuring out what you're looking for. I think that's really important to do, but it is a quick way of doing it.


And then think a really important next step is to actually then go research those things and find the place on the website. And Chad GPT can can really help you with that, too. You know, you can ask specifically, hey, I'm interested in doing original works of theater at Northwestern University. What opportunities might be available? And Chad GPT will give you give me specific links. Ask for the specific links and it will give you specific links that you can then go research. Side note, I'd have to say this. Don't then be like, OK, now write my YSA. You know, don't use it to write your essays for you.


but I think it can be a great way to speed up the research. So again, I'll link to that in the show notes. I'd love to shift and talk just for a minute about early decision, early action. And I know we could do a whole podcast on this, but it came up earlier. And I think that it's something that students think about when they're trying to figure out where should I apply. I'd love to just hear maybe Jay from you first, how do you have that early action, early decision conversation with folks and what are some of the considerations?


Speaker 3 (38:14)
Man, that's a good one. Well, obviously, early decision is that I always like to hold up my ring and, you know, put it on, say, I the wed myself to, right? And it's it's one of those that when we start to talk about early decision, if that's a consideration, have you visited or, you know, taken an extensive amount of look into all their online resources that you feel like this would be a place that you'd be happy?


And then second, have you done the net price calculator? Because any school that should have early decision is going to have that as an opportunity for them to look at. And I think that that might be a part of that kind of first ground level. But to me, there's the strategy, I think, is a little bit of the conversation about like, OK, but how how interested are you in each of these schools first and foremost and putting together a plan? I I get nervous when a lot of students punt everything to regular decision, as in


there are a number of schools that are early decision only in the fall, right? And those tend to be some of the most selective schools in the country. And applying to those schools exclusively means that you can only apply to one in the fall and then therefore the rest are in January. And so I encourage students when they're in that position to look at some other early action schools and how we can grow that, that list just to be able to have a little bit more, I like to say just like,


some good news for Christmas, you know, like we might have something that comes through a little bit more in that. And then, you know, early action again has some different deadlines, which is frustrating because I don't want to bag on North Carolina, but they have the slowest return rate and on giving an announcement, right? You apply on October 15th, which is early by the way. And they don't tell you until February if you're in the runnings and that's hard.


for a student that is looking at early decision one, which is typically November.


Speaker 1 (40:12)
or


Speaker 3 (40:13)
early decision two, which I think we need to come up with some new terms, but which is in January, right? Where we could go binding to another school. And, but if you're really holding out hope on that school, that becomes again, this question of like, our investments, right? Like how risky are we running this senior year and what you're carrying out into April that you're waiting to hear from. So I, I, yeah.


So that's some of the stuff that I think through early on in the fall semester of thinking through those possibilities.


Speaker 2 (40:47)
Steve, is there anything you'd add to that?


Speaker 1 (40:50)
Early action is normally a non is a no brainer. mean, if if a school offers early action, it simply means that you will hear earlier. And so I encourage students to do early action whenever they can do it. Early decision, on the other hand, what troubles me about my.


training programs with with consultants and talking about early decision is the conversation is almost exclusively about admission and not about fit. And that worries me because I I I want to help students get into the school that that that they want to get into and that fits best.


But I also want to be concerned about that fit. And so I I approach early decision with caution. I think there are many students who are totally focused on admission and probably should do it. I think there are an equal number of students who maybe are not ready by.


November 1st or something to really know what school is right for them. And so I like to at least have a conversation about the pros and cons of early decision.


Speaker 2 (42:34)
Jake, talk to us about the role of parents in the process. What do you feel like are some of the sort of best practices for how parents can best support their students as they're going through this phase of the process as part of the college search?


Speaker 3 (42:47)
I really like this question because I think I have a lot of empathy for parents is that you are receiving an intense amount of messaging and anxiety and there's a lot of marketing that is like perpetuating this, like keeping me up at night. But I have students almost every year that come into my office and they say, I don't wanna, we don't talk about that C word, right? Cause college is scary and it is.


and it's draining and it's an identity warping process, it's disheartening. And when you get down to it, it feels really bad. parents, if I can ask you, if you are focusing on the admissions process, again, I feel like Steve and I are saying a similar message here, then you are going to provoke a lot of anxiety in this process, right? Without intentionally or unintentionally. And you might have a hard time seeing your child for who they are. But if you focus on how great a college experience could be,


then you will find that your child will get excited alongside with you, right? Like there's a sense of like, this could be cool. Like, did you know they had rugby as well? Right? Like that's awesome. you know, like finding some places where we can see what the possibilities of four years of life. The joke is that we shouldn't spend longer applying to a school than the amount of time it takes to go to a school, right? So, you know, but there is still that preparation. So like ninth and 10th grade,


go if you're in town and you know go visit a college it's great it's just getting some time and some feet on the campus is great and starting to to workshop some of those questions that we were talking about earlier is is a great opportunity to to go and and see what they would find unique about it.


Speaker 2 (44:33)
have a practical thing for this that I like to suggest. we started off with this roles and identities a little bit. And it's an exercise that I talk about for students in terms of what are the roles that you played in your life. But I really love to suggest this one for families. And I'll put it in the chat, and we'll follow up with it. But the exercise here is, as a parent, you look at this list of roles and identities.


And you ask yourself a couple questions. You ask yourself, what are the roles that I could play in this process? So I see, for example, I could be the organizer. I could be the energizer. I could be the challenger. So there all these potential roles that I could play. And then ask yourself two more questions. What roles will I not play? And what roles will I play? So for me, for instance, I hope to not play the organizer.


in terms of organizing my student, my daughter, when she's seven years going through this process, to be the one who organizes all the things. But I do want to be a question asker. I do want to ask difficult questions. So that's a fun little exercise. It only takes maybe 10 minutes, but it can get you to orient and go, how do I want to show up in this process? So it's a specific way of doing exactly what you're talking about, Jay. I love that.


Speaker 3 (45:44)
Thank you.


Speaker 2 (45:46)
Steve, as we get close to closing here, I'd love to know something practical for students. Give us something that, let's say, a senior, rising senior, could focus on a couple months from application season when they're getting ready to submit. What's something that you'd suggest that might help them shift their mindset around this process? Or like a concrete action that you feel like maybe students sometimes miss?


Speaker 1 (46:11)
Well, one question I think that they should ask is whether college is right for me immediately after high school. And it's not too late as a senior to think about that. There are lots and lots of studies that show success in.


college after somebody has taken a gap year or worked for a year or done some community service. So one of the things that I would ask is, is, is that another thing I would suggest that seniors do is to be certain that their college list is not created so they can outdo one of their peers in their high school.


I see too many students that are, you know, I my list is better than your list because it has more competitive colleges and all of that. That is such a waste of time and and and and really doesn't further someone's exploration of good fit colleges. And in the last thing I would say to someone who is a senior and has a list or thinks they have a list


is to go up to the top of a mountain or if you don't live near a mountain at the top of a hill and just think for a few minutes, just think about who you are. Think about whether your list really reflects who you are as opposed to what your parents might think of you or others might think of you. I think just taking a moment to self reflect.


in the senior year is something I don't see enough students do.


Speaker 2 (48:12)
I love this. I want to ask you both, what are some, maybe give me like two or three, I know you could, cause you could give me a bunch, give me two or three resources that you think are really important in this process. And we'll, we'll link to them all in the show notes. And it could be either the college search process, or it could be, you know, just sort of like the college admission process with a side note to say, we're going to say, course the college finder.


by Jay McCann and Steve Antonoff, which again, we'll link to in the show notes. But what are some other favorite resources that you'd like to put on folks' radar? Either of you can go first.


Speaker 1 (48:44)
I think the Fist Guide to Colleges is probably a must. I think that following colleges on Instagram, I think there's a lot of good information that is available, and I would encourage students to do that. There are some very, very good college tour websites, campus real and campus tours, campus tour.


singular are two good ones. I find college navigator information to be reliable and good. Those are some of the websites and some of the books that I like.


Speaker 2 (49:29)
Love it. Jay, you got a couple?


Speaker 3 (49:31)
Well, the funny thing is Steve has on his website a full list of like lots of resources that you can follow as well. So he would be happy to share even more. Maybe what I would say is thinking about like engaging in this process, like two ones that I commonly will point parents towards when they are very much in the prestige fixated mindset is just this challenge success initiative by Stanford's College of Education.


And they look at how much does selectivity matter? how much should we place weight on that? Making Caring Common Initiative, Harvard's College of Education had. And what I like about that one is they have red flags for parents. And so it might be a nice check, like how am I doing? Or maybe ask your child how you're doing to fill it out for you as a parent and engaging in this process.


Speaker 2 (50:28)
This is all wonderful. And side note, the making caring common thing. Last year I interviewed Tricia Ross Anderson, who helps to head up that project. And we'll link to that in the show notes. But they're deep into helping colleges figure out what they want when they're looking for students. So that's a really neat organization. Thanks for being here with me today and with us today.


Speaker 1 (50:49)
We certainly are very grateful to you, Ethan, for featuring the College Finder and for helping us. And I also want to put in a plug for your resources and your books, which I recommend � often to my students. So thank you both for your contributions to the field and for highlighting our work today.


Speaker 3 (51:13)
Absolutely. Yeah, we could even go back to Ethan helping us on some of these surveys that we helped develop the book. So he has been an integral part of even this book coming to fruition.


Speaker 2 (51:25)
Well, it's


my honor and my privilege. thank you both and we'll see you on the next one.


Speaker 1 (51:30)
Thank you very much. Bye bye.


Speaker 3 (51:32)
Bye y'all.


Speaker 2 (51:37)
Thanks for listening, friends. You'll find, as ever, all the show notes at collegeessayguide.com slash podcast, including links to the book, links to Jay and Steve's website, and links to our guide to developing a college list. Hey, if you're not on our email list, go to our website, go to collegeessayguide.com and opt in to really anything on the site, and you'll get notified when we've got new free resources or webinars or any other awesome thing coming up. That's it. Stay curious.